Bitcoin Forum

Bear with me, I took about a year hiatus from Bitcoin so I'm probably a little unfamiliar with some of the changes but dear God the amount of hoops I have to jump through to get $$$ to Gox is ridiculous.

This has been my journey over the last few WEEKS.

1.  Already had an established Dwolla account linked to my bank from prior fundings to MtGox.
2.  Try to fund, MtGox says they need to verify me.  Send a picture ID and another form of verification.  Alright, anti-money laundering I get it, that's fine.  Send requested information.  About a week to week and a half later am finally verified.
3.  Start transfer from my bank to Dwolla on Jan 18th.  Funds will not clear until the 25th, SEVEN days later.  Okay there's a US holiday in there but still, way too long for an ACH.
4.  Finally today, weeks into the process, I'm ready to send funds to MtGox via Dwolla (which is giving me a disclaimer that it may take up to 24hrs to credit).  Oh nope sorry, now Dwolla needs a copy of my photo ID because the receiving party has requested it, blah blah blah.  Seriously?  I just spent over a week verifying myself with them and now I have to do it again?  Another 1-2 business days.

Please tell me there are better options.  I don't want to do an international wire due to the high fees.  I realize once I'm verified by everyone on the planet the process will be shorter but it's still going to take about a week between Dwolla releasing funds and then MtGox verifying.  I can't do the local bitcoins thing, no one in my area.  I also don't think I can do the option where you walk into select stores and pay via cash (none of the stores look familiar to me so I don't think there are any in the state).

Have you tried bitinstant.com (http://bitinstant.com) ?

I looked at it but I don't really get how it speeds up the process.  In my case, I have funds in Dwolla that want to go to MtGox, how is their transfer faster?  Do I still need to wait until Dwolla verifies my photo ID?  The cash deposit to BTC looks interesting but it doesn't say what the exchange rate is and I honestly don't know how reputable these guys are.

Do not use DWOLLA.

http://codinginmysleep.com/dwolla-begins-suspensions/

Thanks for the article.  Interesting.  Okay then we're back at square one.  What are the alternate options?

If you want to buy bitcoins right now take cash out of an ATM and use BitInstant.

If you are willing to wait 5 business days for an ACH withdrawal to clear then use Coinbase.

I haven't found a good solution for recurring periodic buys yet. I'd like to be able to buy bitcoins via ACH deposit but nobody offers that yet. Setting up an ING checking account in order to move dollars into Bitfloor might come close but there aren't many bitcoins for sale over there.

I've used Coinbase and it's pretty simple. Once your bank account is confirmed, you can lock in a price immediately, even though it takes several days for the ACH to clear. They have relatively low daily limits (I assume since ACH can be reversed in some cases), but as long as it's to buy a few coins and not to make a major market move I think it's the way to go for now.

Try to establish local contacts. In the UK there are plenty of people who will meet face to face and buy your coins for cash, the advantage of which is being independent of electronic banking. Although they'll take a hefty fee for their troubles.

Maybe you could try find out if similar circumstances exist where you live. Bitcoin needs local exchange, see if you can be a part of it.

BitInstant's pretty fast. I did not even have to wait.

You could try Bitcoin-otc (http://www.Bitcoin-otc.com) Also, there is this new site (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86304.0;topicseen), I know nothing about it though.

Yup, at just a 1% fee there is no way that is as inexpensive and easy.  Since the price is locked in at the time you place the order, the delays until the ACH clears should be less of a problem ... unless you are needing to make the purchase for immediate spending.   The $100 USD per-day limit will be increased to 100 BTC per-day after 30 days have passed since your first purchase and a few other steps are completed:
 - http://blog.coinbase.com/post/40233239772/you-can-now-buy-up-to-100-btc-per-day-with-a-verified

Bitfloor allows for ING P2P as well as direct deposit into several major banks.

What we want to do is to make bitcoin something you don't need to exchange for fiat cash eventually, then all these worries will be gone. Dealing with financial companies is a pain in the butt. But once you're verified, things should go a little smoother.

Thanks for the suggestions, I figured there were other options out there just didn't know which were the best.  

As for the local exchange, I'll look into it, maybe I can start something going.

It has not always worked perfectly for everyone, but I have never waited more than 15mins. or shown any identification.

Insisting on Dwolla and MtGox is how you ensure there is no better way.

There are lots of other options that are faster, cheaper, or both.

Personally, I prefer bitfloor since I can quickly send them p2p payments from my ING checking account. (BTW if you want an ING account, PM me your email and I'll send you an invite so we both get a free bonus).  Bitinstant is good too, although a bit pricey.  localbitcoins.com is great if there is someone near you who is willing to sell.

https://i.imgur.com/qxfxt6E.png


As far as I know, there is no CVS in Alaska, Colorado, Idaho, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, or Wyoming, but what state does someone have to live in for Walmart to not look familiar?

Maybe he doesn't live in a U.S. state?

I was never insisting on using Dwolla or MtGox, nor did I say there is "no better way."  The whole point of the thread was looking for alternate options.  And thanks for the bitfloor suggestion.  I already use a few online checking accounts, I'm not sure if I want to set up another but if I do, I'll PM you.

Yeah that was my mistake, I had looked at Bitinstant about a week ago and was going off memory.  I had forgotten about the Walmart option. 

Look into Localbitcoins.com (http://Localbitcoins.com)

Their markups are reasonable (for the convenience of having your coins within days, or even hours), and if you're dealing with a good seller, they'll have enough BTC on-hand to meet any of your needs. And they can do the ACH and slow transfer stuff behind the scenes (like a buffer).

Anyways, check it out. I use it a lot to sell and make contacts with buyers.

As far as I know you can use BitInstant with any MoneyGram location, and those are virtually everywhere.

There's 1 person about 5 miles from me but he's asking for $22USD/BTC....

Thanks though, I think I have a number of options to look into.  Maybe once I accumulate enough I can sell locally and get some of those ridiculous spreads down.

Mebbe he didn't update recently.  Send him a message?

How will someone who is willing to sell at spot but reluctant to place an ad on LocalBitcoins themselves able to find you unless you place an ad there yourself?

I've found, as a seller, that I have to charge a 5 or 6% premium, to cover the 2% fee by going through BitInstant, and to make it worth my while. This guy must have it at like, 10%. But if he's dominating the market, he can charge exorbitantly.

Tried to use Bitinstant and Dwolla would not allow the transfer until my photo ID is verified.  I think this will be the last time I use Dwolla esp with the apparent suspensions going on.

i still can't understand why ppl don't emphasize intl wiring more.  for me, its a flat fee of $40 and this is the only way i've ever done it.

if you wire $50K to gox, that's only a fee of 0.08%.

Probably because most people don't have $50k - they're talking about amounts more in the range of tens or hundreds of dollars.

Wires make a lot of sense if you're moving a large amount of money, but for most people, the fees would make a huge chunk of the money.

ok.  let's use your numbers.  a $2000 wire at $40 = 2%.  add in whatever gox charges to make a trade (0.63% last i looked) and that still only 2.63% which is less than Bitinstant.

what's the problem?

I said tens or hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

$100 at $40 fee = 40%.   + 0.63% for MtGox = 40.63%.

I don't personally know anyone who has enough money that they would be willing to invest more than a few hundred dollars into Bitcoins.  I do know several people who are interested, but wouldn't want to put more than $100 or so in.  $2,000 would be a very significant sum of money for just about everyone I know to invest in a volatile thing like Bitcoin.

I have a feeling MOST people buy Bitcoins in amounts of a few hundred or less.  This is why WT isn't touted as a viable method very often.  Yes, it is very viable for $2,000 or more.  Not as much for $1,000 or less.

A poll would be interesting in this regard.  I think I'll start one.

i understand what you're saying but i think there are alot of ppl who are investing in the thousands of dollars range.  you can see the large single orders going off constantly on Clark Moody or mtgoxlive that number in the thousands of Bitcoins.  :D

I'd bet most of those are daytraders gaining/losing money back and forth.  I don't see any evidence that says those are all new investors popping in - I bet very few are.

we see 5000 BTC buys or sells on gox all the time that clearly represent a single order controlled by one person.  whether or not it's a first time order is irrelevant; the point is that this single person controls that amount of Bitcoins or USD's and they had to get that money to gox one way or another.

I understand.  My point is, you could see 500 orders at 5,000 BTC, each one of which was definitely controlled by one person, and they could be trades conducted between only 10 different people, not 500 people.

I'm not trying to argue that people don't make large deposits, just that it isn't all that common compared to much smaller deposits/purchases of BTC.

that's probably true.

another way to look at this is the Richest List:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92423.0:

assuming each address is controlled by one person (i think that's fair) there are at least 410 ppl with at least 2707 BTC's. at today's market price that's equivalent to $46912 or more.  i wonder how many addresses below the 410 have at least $200 in them?  probably alot.

I advise caution when using BitInstant there have been varying reports of selective scamming.

oh yeah, the other way to look at how much ppl on an individual basis are pouring into Bitcoin is to look at the # of asic pre-orders.  it's extraordinary the # of units ppl are ordering and the money involved in purchasing those units.  way, way beyond hundreds of USD's.  more like tens of thousands of USD's.

I don't see how this is relevant to the number of people submitting large deposits to MtGox.  It says nothing about the number of small BTC purchases relative to the number of large BTC purchases.

yes, it might not be relevant to gox itself.  i'm just trying to demonstrate how much money individuals are putting into the Bitcoin system.  we'll never know exactly b/c these kind of estimations are going to be distributed across a large range of numbers and largely unobtainable.

The reason I've never used it is MtGox says Int'l wires take 2-5 business days to reach them, which is just plain stupid.  Back in the day, Dwolla was fine to use so I never really explored anything else.  Looks like things have changed and maybe wire is the best method but I still can't believe a wire would take as much as 5 business days.  That's like sending a package overnight delivery and UPS coming back saying, "okay it should arrive sometime in the next week."  

Edit: Oh 2-5 business days to reach them PLUS up to another 24 hours to clear.  Absurd.

I went back and forth with Mt Gox for 6 WEEKS before I got verified.  Near the end I was literally begging them to quit giving me form answers and tell me specifically why my documents were being denied.  I told them I needed the money for a down payment on a property I had under contract.  I gave them very strong advice about their crappy customer service and I would advise anyone to do business elsewhere because it will be good for bitcoin.  Mt Gox should not be rewarded for resting on their laurels.

The CHEAPEST offer for online coins (localbitcoins.com) near me is $25!  This is $8 over spot!  How can people seriously act this way?

i've wired multiple times in the morning and have had the money available that nite; like 7 hours.

There are a lot of new purchases well over $1,000 range.  For us $10,000 isn't even that rare anymore and >$100,000 is getting a lot less unusual.

The idea that most of the buying is in the $100 range is probably well off target.  It would take hundreds of thousands of new users @ $100 "buy in" each to create the kind of buying pressure we are seeing.  While that would be great news I don't think that is the case.

MtGox =/= Bitcoin. 

yeah, that makes sense entirely.

See that's a lot more reasonable.  I don't know why they quote such absurd timelines, maybe just to cover their ass.  I may try a small amount wire and see if I get similar results as you. 

a couple of tips.  don't wire on Friday (US time) b/c it won't get there until Sunday night (Monday morning Japan time) since Japanese banks aren't open on weekends.

if it's a large wire get on IRC with Magical Tux and ask him to look out for it.  i don't think that should be "necessary" but i've done that just to make sure he's aware to look out for it.  oftentimes, i've done this when there is a selloff going on and i want the money there asap.

Who are you??

There have been reports of system glitches and user error that have been resolved.

Please point to a bitinstant scam report.

IMHO the better way is called coinbase.com

You can transfer in/out of any US bank account fast and (almost) free via ACH transfers.

I have no affiliation with them whatsoever other than having sent many new users their way. Unlike some other exchanges run out of basement bedrooms, they are a "real" company, an angel-funded silicon valley startup with a clear business model.

If anyone can survive the inevitable, coming regulatory shakedown they should be among the best postioned. Some may remember that when Paypal first appeared they were almost shut down by regulators for operating as a "bank" (without regulatory approval). It was only their momentum and their ability to pay lawyers that saved them.   

i admit i have never tried them.  once you are verified, how long does it take to buy Bitcoins thru them if you don't allow them the direct bank account access option?  and what is their fee?

... I believe they require you to link a bank acct for any USD/BTC transactions. They are a pure BTC environment so any incoming USD is converted to BTC at the rate when the ACH (2-3 days) transfer is initiated. Conversely any BTC is converted to USD when an outgoing transfer is initiated.

Their biggest innovation may be the ability so send/receive bitcoin from anyone using "only an email address" - sort of like a Paypal for Bitcoin. 

Regarding fees: Just a tiny ($0.25?) ACH fee and a thin buy/sell spread compared to most other US-based services

$0.15 and 1%

i'm interested in hearing from someone who's actually used them.  i assume you have? 

so does it take 2-3 days?  do they only use ACH?  can one use email to initiate a tx?

As far as I know you can only use ACH there. I've bought about 150 bitcoins that way. My last transaction was initiated Friday morning and is supposed to be complete by the end of business hours on Wednesday.

As far as email goes I know they have some merchant tools that let you send an invoice via email and they have some APIs, so maybe it's possible to do what you want.

Links please?



Seriously, at the risk of sounding like an ad, unless you're wanting to trade back and forth and want to get the fees as low as possible, there's no reason you shouldn't be using BitInstant. I use them, and until more local traders pop up for me, it's all I have any intention of using.

Yes, they charge close to 4% for lesser amounts. Yes, there's an additional $5 fee for their processor ZipZap if you go the cash/Walmart/Moneygram route. Yes, there are caps on the amount you can buy per transaction.

But the fact is, you get what you pay for.

If you want low, low prices, and the hassle, privacy invasion and terrible service that goes with that, then exchanges are what you want (I'm thinking specifically of the Dwolla/Mt. Gox combo... *shudder*.)

If you just want bitcoins to hold for the long-term, and you want them NOW, and without hassle, and for an IMHO reasonable fee, then BitInstant beats everything else out there. I've never had to wait more than an hour using BitInstant, I've never been subjected to "selective scamming," and the entire transaction is quite smooth and painless. Had I tried haggling my way through the exchanges for my last bitcoin purchase, I would have lost more than the fees BitInstant charges just due to the price run-up on bitcoins.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

AurumXchange is a fantastic service and has excellent rates for funding an account at Mt.Gox to buy BTC

https://www.aurumxchange.com/

(I just use their service - no other connection...)

move to canada and start using virtex!  :P

I'm eager to see a scam report as well...

I've only used Coinbase to sell bitcoins but I'd assume the buying process is just as smooth.  Put in an order, money comes in via ACH transfer, Bitcoins deposited to your account.  They do have a relatively low limit (you can only initially buy 10 BTC/day; I don't know what the limit increases to since you need to complete a purchase first) but I'd trust them as they're a Y-Combinator funded company.

I've used BitInstant/Dwolla for all my BTC purchases (>10 BTC) and haven't been impressed because every time the order "fails dwolla verification" and needs to be manually processed by the BI staff.  Granted a few of my purchases were over their $500/tx limit (which doesn't seem to be enforced in software) but I had the same problem with orders under $500.  BitInstant's BTC/USD exchange rate also always seems higher than MtGox's.  I recently opened and verified an account on MtGox and will probably use that w/ transfer from Dwolla from now on.

Either way I agree with the OP that there need to be easier ways to buy bitcoins.  The current methods are simply too slow and/or annoying.  Unfortunately there's just too high of a risk for anyone to accept credit cards for BTC and I don't think there's any way to speed up ACH transfers.

There is an idea that's been floating around for a few years but hasn't actually happened yet:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=20135.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=20135.0)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53765.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53765.0)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93294.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93294.0)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108763.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108763.0)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128919.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128919.0)

Bitcoinary - It's in my sig.

Deal with people directly lots of deposit options and lots of currencies.

Wait and see....  ;D

Still waiting on those Bitinstant Paycards.

5 months later...still nothing. I see a pattern here.  :D

This is hell. It took me all day to do a simple cash deposit with this MoneyGram deal. No matter what amount I told the cashier I wanted to deposit it was the wrong amount and I had to go back to that stupid red phone and call Money Gram again. I had to visit 3 CVS stores and an Acme to get one stupid deposit done. Then all the fees on top of that it just killed me.

Not only that but Bitinstant doesn't advise you to change the amounts if you are transferring > $1000 in $500 increments. Example: $500, $499.75, $499.50...etc.

Wasted like 6 hours trying to figure out what was wrong. In my opinion all the pitfalls of their system need to be well documented and put on their website.

1 hour my ass lol

Agreed, we've had alot of suggestions like these in the past few weeks. So, we have a solution that should be rolled out very soon.

Thanks!

Looking forward to it Charlie  :)

Yeah I did it the other day too.  Went back and forth to the red phone 3 or 4 times.  Cashiers had no idea what to do.  I eventually left and got my bitcoins from another source.

There are instructions on the back of the slip for the merchant. The merchant needs to enter 0 moneygram fees since its included already. That's probably why it failed.

Next time, call us while your in the store so we can walk you thru it

Charlie

Never had to deal with the red phone myself. I used Wal-Mart, took the slip with me, went to the MoneyGram counter, and was done within minutes. I can actually get it done on my lunch break.

It's a little surprising that CVS clerks would have that much trouble.

Curious. You have to actually speak with a Money Gram agent first so they can put your transaction in the terminal so the cashier can process the payment. Are you saying there was a Money Gram rep at the Wal-Mart store?

Yeah she didn't know what to do.  I didn't know who to call either.  Since there is a 3rd party in the mix too.

Not complaining.  I have a high tolerance for pain and will give you guys another try.  Will be better prepared next time.

Thanks, if there is trouble next time, call the 716 number on our site from the store, we have people trained for this!

At many of the regional Wal-Marts (I can't believe it wouldn't be nationwide) they have "finance counters" or something similar near the front of the store. They have services such as Wal-Mart credit card signup, prepaid debit card sales, sometimes a branch office of a real bank, and MoneyGram transfers.

Whether it was an official rep of MoneyGram or not, I'm not sure, all I know is I went to the counter, filled out the form, the clerk entered the data, and the deal was done. No extra step with a phone calling MoneyGram, nothing like that.

1. The sender (you)
2. BitInstant
3. MoneyGram
4. ZipZap
5. The recipient (Mt Gox/Dwolla/Coinapult, etc)

As far as MoneyGram is concerned, you are sending money to ZipZap (a bill paying service). ZipZap is who gives your money to BitInstant (after taking their fee).

BitInstant is the one who tells ZipZap about the "bill" that you will be paying so that ZipZap can prepare to receive it.

Once BitInstant finally gets the money they can send it to whichever destination you chose.

My local CVS had no clue how to process my BitInstant transaction.

After ~1 hour of standing around, waiting for the clerk to figure it out, I was told it would not be possible at that location.


Bitcoin-otc seems like a good way to trade, but it's the opposite of user friendly, and it's very easy to get scammed. Actually, my only attempt to trade on bitcoin-otc resulted in myself being scammed  :o.

Obviously the market is demanding something better. If anyone would lead the way on this one, I'm sure they would make a good penny.

What was the location? They can lose their license for denying you.

Please call our support next time from the store.

Try Bitcoinary.com, lot's of traders, user friendly and with escrow.

Link in my sig.

One plug per thread is probably enough ;)