Bitcoin Forum

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-rt-us-financial-bitcoitre7573t3-20110608,0,6328122.story

MtGox and Bitcoin are completely legal!

To all US citizens that support Bitcoins. Although Senator Schumer and Friends are helping the publicity of Bitcoins we still need to take action. Some of you just say "Whatever I doesn't matter they can't hurt Bitcoin, exchanges will always be replaced" but the core issue is that it SHOULDN'T have to be replaced. MtGox is a perfectly legal institution, Schumer is just fear mongering people and blowing things out of proportion by trying associate "Bitcoins directly with Drugs" even though Bitcoin is used for a lot more things. Although some of you don't agree with the illegality of drugs at least bare with me.

Bitcoin =/= Illegal Drugs. Don't let them push some baloney bill to ban/limit the use of Bitcoins in the US. It is just a regrettable side effect of any money. It should be the governments job to work with people like Garzik to limit illegal drug trafficking not ban the entire currencies LEGAL use because they feel threatened because they don't understand it. If PayPal just happened to be used to buy drugs and the government didn't bother to work with them to stop it, but instead just decided to stomp PayPal out we would think that is ridiculous.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504943_162-20069780-10391715.html

I don't know what lobbyist pay Schumer and Friends but this is obviously just some strong arming against Bitcoin.

Show them how level headed, passionate, and large our community is and why what we do is a good thing. SEND EMAILS, SNAIL MAIL, and PHONE CALLS (preferably snail mail and phone calls but anything is better than nothing) to your local Senators and Representatives to Schumer and to the Attorney General explaining to them the ridiculousness of what they are doing right now. It violates the fundamental values of capitalism and democracy.

http://schumer.senate.gov/new_website/contact.cfm

http://manchin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact-form

The exchanges will NOT always be replaced.  People who think so have an incredibly short memory.

Rand: http://paul.senate.gov/?p=contact
Ron: http://paul.house.gov/

Lot of libertarians here that think they've somehow checkmated the government.  For you other more realistic people please at least write 1 congressperson.  It does matter.  It does count.  They do read them.  Know that if you did your part then you in the moral clear, it is the very cynics who do nothing that are the reason we have the government that we do.

Senator who?

I don't believe this person has any jurisdiction in Australia lol..

You laugh because you live in another country and think the issue is completely transparent to you but if it gets banned in one place it gives precedent to other nations to do the same. Act now in Australia start legitimizing Bitcoin there. Not only will it help to avoid the legal battle that will eventually ensue it helps bring Bitcoin into the media.


Exactly! Don't just languish believing that the idea of Bitcoin will protect us. Act! Be active, it's people who believe in what niemivh highlighted that let great ideas go to waste.

Understand exactly who this is and where he is coming from, and realize that he is serious.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00001093&cycle=2010 (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cid=N00001093&cycle=2010)

Industry	Total
Securities & Investment	$2,644,799
Lawyers/Law Firms	$2,137,360
Real Estate	$1,244,190
Lobbyists	$569,713
Misc Finance	$543,950

Also to all the people who don't care about the social and legal implications of Bitcoins and are just hoarding. Send your representative emails anyways, it will help the value of the Bitcoin. And now that I'm at it, everyone in every country out there should write their government and show them what Bitcoin is; explain to them why its legal and the benefits and most importantly show them dedication and progressiveness of this community.

To OP: Great idea to get people to take action.  The best bet may be a focused effort to try to educate Schumer and other democrats on his committees about bitcoin.  Convince them it is not a threat.

Schumer is no joke, he is one of the big dogs that others follow.  12 years in the senate and 18 in the House before that.  Lawyer.  On the 3 Commitees Bitcoin businesses must fear most: Finance, Banking, Judiciary.  Don't just blow this off, he is for real.  

He probably sees Bitcoin as a threat to his State if it takes off. He might try to claim this as an issue to help his state of New York, where all the banks, trading houses, stock and currency exchanges are.  NY is also the state where most foreign national corporations do their business and NY courts are where they redress their grievances.

The Coup De Grace:  Someone who knows the computer code for Bitcoin very well needs to get on to Silk Road and do some private eye work.  Track a transaction, prove your work with meticulous notes, link it to an IP, and hand it over to law enforcement.  Make yourself available as an expert witness.  There will be good money in that as they dismantle Silk Road, KP rings and other foolish copycats.  

Get successful prosecution(s) aided by Bitcoin community to prove Bitcoin is not used by dangerous criminals, but legitimate businessmen.  What we need is enough people to assist in destroying silkroad without new legislation to prevent legislation by showing that it is unnecessary.  Truth is, you will only be helping to bust the stupid dealers who don't know how to launder bitcoins before cashing them out, but what the old men in Washington don't know won't hurt them.  

Bitcoin is not anonymous, and it is not for money laundering.  These are the touchstones for Schumer and his like-minded senators on the big banking commitees.  Take the fangs out of their argument by proving them wrong, then you've got something.

ah.  someone else who's been through the blog wars.  i know the tone and the cite...

yes, he's serious.  and owned.  i'll grant him the slight grace of a touch of reasonableness - for his breed - but no more than that.

yelling at your congresscritters always has value, if done correctly.

don't send e-mails.  they are ignored.

send snail mail - at least hand signed.  the best are hand written.

the very best is to call - sometimes you even can speak with the critter him/her self.  but they are well-versed in debate:  don't call if you are not.

If possible someone should draft a letter and post it up. If people are lazy they can just print it out and sign and send. If anything it might give people something to work off of.

Unless there's been some new development, Schumer hasn't said anything about banning bitcoin. He wants Silk Road closed. I think it's a mistake to try to make that about Bitcoin if the politicians don't do it first.

All of this makes me realize that it would be good for us to think about creating a "Bitcoin Association", a non-profit organization that has a charter to support Bitcoin.  It will likely have to have two separate organizations, one that is allowed to take contributions to do legislative advocacy on behalf of Bitcoin, and another that is a plain 501(c) 3 for doing more Public Relations and perhaps conference organizing.

I'm here in Washington, DC and would be interested in coordinating with others to help launch something like this.

I am planning on pre-emptively writing my representative in the house, even tho she can't vote.  Here in Washington, DC the citizens have limited representation (http://dcvote.org)--with no representation in the Senate.

--Darrell

The problem is that we have so many aging politicians like this schumer guy sitting in the senate, working for lobbyists.  They don't understand anything that has come out in the past 20 years.  

It's a huge problem to have people from the past essentially ruling over the future.  You can't regulate 2011 like it was 1951... it just doesn't work.

Calling your Bitcoins that you buy/sell/(trade for goods) a currency is stepping into a legal minefield in my opinion, as the financial industry is regulated by numerous laws beyond the scope of this posting, for legislation administrative rulings see http://fincen.gov/

Is calling your Bitcoins that you buy/sell/(trade/barter for goods) a digital P2P crypto-commodity not maybe more accurate and legally acceptable if it is traded/exchanged/bartered or bought/sold not within the scope of financial industry?

It seems like Australia and the United Kingdom's tax offices view Bitcoins in the latter manner.  see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/bitcoin_under_attack/

UK considers Bitcoins legal and taxable unique intellectual property assets? : "... quoting Her Magesty’s Revenue & Customs as saying that turning Bitcoins into currency could make transactions taxable..."  (turning Bitcoins into currency = Bitcoins not a currency, but a digital good?)

Australia considers Bitcoins legal and taxable unique intellectual property assets? : "... If traced by the Australian Tax Office, Bitcoins would probably get the same treatment as “barter” exchanges, with tax assessed on the value of traded goods or services. ..." (barter of digital goods?)

Also MtGox has carefully worded their website as well as to proclaim that you can buy or sell the internet commodity known as Bitcoin.  Unlike bitcoin.org proclaiming it to be a currency, for some unknown reason?

I wish that got tweeted together with the link to the original article.

I am not willing to hurt people simply for selling weapons and weeds. What these people are doing is a voluntary transaction. Schumer and his friends are morally disgusting, not us.

Bitcoin network:  I'm the key holder  :)

Satoshi:  I'm the key keeper  ;)

Swimmer: "Who you gonna call?"

Dan Aykroyd:  "Ghost Busters!!!"

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000101/

Schumer has no fucking idea what Bitcoins are.  He is a puppet of the federal reserve private banking cartel..  DISGUSTING.

What is obvious to me is that the "US Citizens" and their part are irrelevant in this conflict, because their political system is also controlled by their well-financed military-industrial and commercial corporate lobbies.

That was clear to me during the US Healthcare Reform scam, the Wars on Drugs, Terrorism, Iraq, the Cold War, the "Free-trade" agreements, the bailouts of Wall Street and numerous other corporations. The list is endless...  :D

The majority that doesn't have a personal stake in Bitcoin will be bamboozled just as they were during the above, by powerful, psychology-based, Madison-Avenue brainwashing via TV, and other media Astroturfing...

So imho, just as in those other instances, whether or not a war is declared on Bitcoin by their government, is not within the control of the majority of "US Citizens"...  :)

Rather than waste time writing "their" (corporations') legislators, i think their best bet is just to use Bitcoin, and let that speak for itself... 

Some more fiction:

Swimmer:  "But its anonymous!"  ???
Anders:  "No it is not!"  ::)

Swimmer:  "But its untraceable!"  ???
Anders:  "No it is not!"  :D

Swimmer:  "But its illegal!"  ???
Anders:  "No it is not!"  :)

Swimmer:  "But you can launder it!"  :o
Anders:  "Yes you can! Like most assets!"   :(

Swimmer:  "But if you LAUNDER it, THEN it will become maybe untraceable or even anonymous!"  >:(
Anders:  "Yes."  :(

Swimmer:  "But laundering is illegal!"  >:(
Anders:  "Yes it is."  :(

Swimmer:  "Oh I get it!, Ghostbusters go after those LAUNDERERS and DRUG PEDDLERS at least we can LITIGATE .... THEM!"  :)

All legal Bitcoin crypto-commodity users:  Cheer!!  :D

I made a thread about it on ronpaulforums (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?297583-There-is-a-fight-brewing-will-you-help-!&p=3330081) so hopefully will get some backup on this issue.

Politicians are already irrelevant.

They just don't know it yet.

What keeps the wheels turning in this country? The flow of money. What do politicians do? They enact laws that primarily deal with monetary policies, whether it be for financing projects (pork barrel or otherwise), real estate or employment.

Time to wake up guys, bitcoin undercuts them all. Every. Single. One.

What if we had elections and nobody voted, because they had the means to support themselves, make transactions with merchants and just be able to live comfortably?

I know, you say, basic services are needed. Someone has to take out the trash, police the streets, teach our children, etc..

Guess how those could be funded? It wouldn't even be a tax anymore - you'd just contribute directly for the services you needed according to where you lived. The best part - it would be a market deciding this, not the whims of some corrupt, overpaid politician.

This is where we are headed, make no mistake.

People like you have your head up in the clouds don't understand or realize the key issues:

Anyone can say Bitcoin's fundamental values make it effectively better than anything and strictly because it is better it will succeed. Any sociologist will tell you, you are terribly ignorant if you believe that. The best technology, the best economic policy, the best doesn't always win in capitalism. You should "Not just use Bitcoin" but support it politically and socially. Don't just sit smugly on your ivory tower thinking your best when there are bulldozers waiting to just crush half of it. What would you rather have a small US Bitcoin community forced to work under the table or a widely accepted form of currency?

Take online poker in the U.S. for example the only reason it is even holding on is because of litigation and support from the poker community. The government ignorantly banned it and if no one decided to go against it and just sat there saying well "I know it should be legal" you would be shit out of luck.

Sure, suppose Bitcoin might be the best thing since sliced bread and its universal adoption may be inevitable. But why would you intentionally slow its development by not doing things you are fully capable of.

Your mistake is making the assumption that the USA is the world. I live in the USA, and even I know that. What politicians do here and abroad don't mean jack. They can't even stop something they 'declare war on'. How are they going to stop this? Shut down the entire internet - worldwide?

I know everyone has been brought up on the thought that government is out to help us, but guess what, they don't give a flying shit about *you*, the voter. Only when they need you do they even try to make a token effort to communicate.

The system is due for an overhaul, and cutting their legs off, in the form of a free currency will provide such an opportunity. We won't have to care when we have a global medium of exchange, outside of their control.

Think a little bigger, I promise it won't hurt much.

What you don't seem to understand is that while "you" might mean diddly squat the effect "you" on someone else maybe a friend or a friends friend. Sooner or later you rally enough support and those who has substantial say and then the ability to lobby for whats right instead of just letting people fuck around with you because you don't think you make a difference.

While the US might not have direct affects on other countries what you don't realize is if Bitcoin does go down in the US sure Bitcoin might be fine and dandy. BUT WHY WOULD YOU NOT TRY TO PREVENT IT GOING DOWN IN THE US ANYWAYS?

I'm not saying let US regulate Bitcoin. I'm saying don't let them BAN it. Those are two completely different ideas.

We aren't people who can just live through ideals. People have realistic jobs and have to make a living. It takes time to get great things going, the path it takes matters in the real world. If you can think so big stop paying for your internet with USD help Bitcoin even more by not using USD at all. Good luck with that.

I am preventing it. I run the client. That is all we have to do. If they come for us - they'll have to deal with other strategies which include leaving the continental united states. Not everyone has that option, true, but I'm willing to go where I can be free - not just dream about it.

"I am preventing it. I run the client. That is all we have to do. If they come for us - they'll have to deal with other strategies which include leaving the continental united states. Not everyone has that option, true, but I'm willing to go where I can be free - not just dream about it."

YOU are not Bitcoin. Most people who use Bitcoin are people who can not "just get up an leave" your views undercuts the base of people who use Bitcoin and the base of Bitcoin is what drives Bitcoin.

Then why don't you stop using USD why don't you move to some deserted island because technically in your view of idealism you aren't free anywhere there is government. This is the idealism that hurts Bitcoin, its also called intentional inaction.

I'd rather not, I am only expressing that I am willing to stand up for what I believe in. I don't see how that 'hurts' bitcoin. Bitcoin doesn't care, just as long as I'm willing to trade with it and continue to tell people about it. It is a currency, not a girlfriend.

Inaction? I'd call the willingness to move several thousand miles anything *but* inaction, but I guess we can rationalize anything if we put our minds to it.

Here's the bottom line - governments will try to mess with bitcoin, banks will, anyone with a link to the legacy system will. We know this. So prepare. Even if it means running a client or a miner in your basement and never telling the neighbors about it, so you don't get raided by the special police task force dedicated to eradicating free currencies from the land (if that ever comes to pass), it counts.

Every act of defiance counts.

That is why bitcoin matters.

Yes growth supports the legitimacy of Bitcoin but that alone doesn't make Bitcoin legitimate in the eyes of others.


If someone wants to burn down your house. You don't just let them do it move else where. The idea is you are avoiding doing something that prevents you from having to get up and leave. You are letting it be illegitimized even though there are obvious other things that you can do.  


And while you are doing it you have to actually have utilities and live a normal life. We aren't all vigilantes we want to be allowed to be normal people who are using a legitimate currency. Not Batman.

Point exactly.

That is why bitcoin matters.

I can do it all, you know, make everyone think bitcoin is 'legit'. It will prove that on its own accord, when they get paid their salary in it.

So, you are saying I need to protest a corrupt system using minimal resources and zero political backing? Guess what, the internet has a way of dealing with defective nodes, it just routes around it, because it is the best strategy when dealing with a lost cause. We don't have to 'do' anything with these politicians, just let them sputter and murmur, pass some ineffectual legislation - then move on to getting elected again - which is all they really care about.

I get it, green toilet paper is commonly accepted - but I'm thinking about the future where that commodity will be used for wiping your backside, not picking up a six pack and some smokes.

Just support the system, however you can. And that includes using bitcoins to buy knitted scarves from your grandma. Every damn transaction counts when it doesn't involve green toilet paper dollars.

If you are spending more money "Green toilet paper", in effect supporting it under your definition that using a money is all the support you need to do, to try to make Bitcoin legitimate the gap remains the same. That's why people need to work with what we have now. Legitimate and competitive is a lot better than illegitimate and noncompetitive if you want to spread ideas around.

And if you really don't think that if a country find Bitcoins a threat and doesn't fully understand, that other countries aren't going to come to similar conclusions? Unless we adopt the United States of Bitcoin your idealism isn't realistic.

Actually stop trolling what was once a productive discussion. If you don't have anything to productive to add and all you can say is: I'm an anarchists, I don't care about what normal people have to do, don't do anything more to support Bitcoin than just use it. Start your own thread.

You yourself admitted that we have a hybrid system until bitcoin dominates. I support nothing - I have GTP in my possession because of its 'mindshare' at the moment. I'm converting GTP into bitcoins at the rate I can.

Bitcoin is already 'legit' as a currency, the rest will follow.

I do think that many people will consider bitcoin a threat and choose to restrict it rather than embrace it. That is the whole crux of my argument, to be prepared for this reaction.

Idealism isn't realistic when not backed up by facts, but I do know the facts.

Bitcoin will win.

The green toilet paper dollar will lose.

Pick your side.

Belligerence doesn't win wars, neither physical nor intellectual wars. People are too busying deciding what side they are on and not actually doing things to support "that side".

For all those of you who think government might ban bitcoins due to it being used to buy drugs: wake up! It's not the drugs or money laundering the problem! It's the lack of monetary and financial control over people!

You may whine how much you want, but trying to explain to these jerks in power that bitcoin is not only about drugs is just useless. The annoyance that bitcoin represents to the DEA is not nearly as serious as the threat that bitcoin represents to the Fed and to the government ability to tax its subjects.

Drugs, money laundering or whatever, are just the excuses.

Bitcoin is all about taking the power from the government and bringing it back to the people, by allowing us to have a much stronger control of our money. Most big governments out there won't accept that nicely. Get used to it.

There is probably some truth to this. But a lot of people on Bitcoin don't seem to understand. They are belligerent an intentionally antagonize as if they are looking for them to react negatively. What we have are pebbles right now and we are trying to overtake giants. Instead of intentionally antagonizing, we should have just been doing our own thing and amass some clout and real substantial considerations.

Guys, I'm really no expert on economy, but to me it seems relatively simple: We replace our country's currency with bitcoins, eventually noone wants our country's currency anymore, leading to inflation. All gouvernments will do anything in their power to limit the use of bitcoins as much as possible imho. To me the question is WHEN they will act and HOW it is gonna influence the bitcoin popularity. It never hurt other p2p software, but people didn't pay money for that. Then again, people don't really pay money for bitcoins either, they generate them.

Scenario 1: Bitcoins become really popular, 1 billion people on the world by now earn bitcoins when the major gouvernments declare war on it. This leads to an uprising and eventually a civil war.

Scenario 2: The govs react quickly with very effective propaganda and the value of bitcoins will fall for a long time.

Scenario 3: The govs do all in their power, sooner or later, but the bitcoin market florishes nonetheless.


Today's btc value developement seems related to all those news reports if you ask me. I'm ofc hoping it'll rise and I wouldnt mind a civil war scenario either. Its about time we see some blood, at least where I live it is. Now think of some 3rd world countries...

Schumer is the same tool who cracked down on Four Loko for the caffeine.  Don't you have bigger things to worry about you asshat.

*i just sent it

They will probably just get ICE to seize bitcoin.org because someone will claim you can use bitcoin to buy pirated material.

http://images5.cpcache.com/product/546402495v6_480x480_Front_Color-Black.jpg
Get this in the humor section !
http://www.cafepress.com/bitcointeeshirts.546402495

Get your shirts today !

lol @ people thinking sending a letter to Schumer is going to do anything.

These people don't give a shit about you.

I am a huge bitcoin support and love it, but I don't think he will listen to people who are not part of his constituency (the state he represents).

It's really hard for something in its infancy to fight Big Gov. The ironic thing about this, is if they put pressure on legitimate business to NOT accept bitcoin, they actually will simply push bitcoin into the underground and it's PRIMARY use will be illegitimate services. The government isn't doing this because of "drugs". Like always, they are using common tactics to discredit something different because they are concerned about their bottom line.

I am with you brother.