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What's your stance on abortion

we'll stick to first two trimesters or more specifically; times when the baby is not viable outside the womb

Is abortion then immoral or not immoral?

A member of my family had a couple abortions due to financial reasons at that particular time in her life.

Personally, I believe it's fine for rape and incest victims, as well as for those who know for certain the fetus will be deformed if born. Also, if the life of the mother is on the line late in the pregnancy, but sometimes the baby will be saved and sacrifice the mother, though rare.

On the whole, I'm against it, but like I've stated above, some instances make it set okay with me.

I'd say it's neither immoral nor immortal. ;)

In my experiences with a sister who had 3 miscarriages, a friend who's girlfriend has an abortion, and a mother who was told by the doctor that she could not conceive me in the first place, I have personally come to think that it's a personal choice, just as suicide is. If you knew for a fact that your baby would be an alien monster that would kill everyone in the world, you would more than likely not have an issue with aborting it. So the polar opposite would be this-- can you prove that your baby won't be a nightmare, douchebag, bottom rung of the ladder drudge on society who ends up growing up and raping women and killing others? If not, I say the decision to keep a baby is 100% dependent on the conditions and environment. If I were living in North Korea, I'd probably be inclined to abort. If I were stranded on Mount Everest and absolutely sure I would starve to death, I'd probably abort as well. If I were a wealthy person who could logically get away with not even raising my own kid due to the amount of helpers I had, then treating it like an "inconvenience" and aborting is pretty fucking immoral imho. Then again, morals have nothing to do with science. Why don't we just change our DNA to where we can choose to stop making babies and end this problem in the first place?

No offense but wouldn't a pack of condoms or "the pill" contraceptives or even the plan B pill have been much cheaper thana couple abortions?



The way I see it I don't think there should be any reason why they should be outlawed or illegal, yes I think it's somewhat immoral to an extent but in the cases where it can save the mother, or the kid is a product of rape, or if the child would be born with way too many physical or mental complications I have no issue with it.


But these overpriviledged girls getting abortions because it's "my body" get me mad because they could put the children up for abortion or, as I said before, contraceptives and condoms are much, much cheaper.

I voted for immoral. I believe abortion should not be a choice that one life makes to the detriment of another.
The article I am linking (by Eric Lloyd) shows conclusively that there is no dividing line between a human life and an unborn fetus.

SLED: The Case Against Abortion
http://standtherefore.com/blog/sled-the-case-against-abortion/ (http://standtherefore.com/blog/sled-the-case-against-abortion/)

Preview:

The SLED Argument. SLED is an acronym that stands for:

Size
Level of Development
Environment
Degree of Dependency

These are the qualities that can be used to distinguish the born from the unborn. The unborn are small, not fully developed, in the womb, and wholly dependent on their mother. But do any of these qualities affect the value of the human fetus? I’ll analyze it one quality at a time.

The concept of life having value is what brought on taxes and religious wars. The sooner we stop thinking we are valuable, the sooner we can succeed as a species to accomplish great things.

The Nazi Party thought so too.

But that aside, society ceases to function if no life has value. I mean, we could let a lot of murderers out of prison and save a pile of money, if people didn't take human life so seriously. What about all those old-age pensioners? Are they next on the chopping block?

The Nazi's taught eugenics to children in school. Teachers made a mathematics and economics lesson out of disposing of handicapped people to save state resources.

Its an extremist concept I can't ever imagine embracing.

so you're a middle road; no strong principles in the abortion area

why does a rape baby have less rights than one otherwise?

How often do we punish kids for the actions of their parents?

The Nazi Party thought that life wasn't valuable, or the Nazi Party thought that anyone who wasn't one of them wasn't valuable? I think you're confusing the issue in an attempt to be dramatic.

The point still stands. When we stop pretending we are important, powerful, beautiful, original, unique, talented and valuable creatures, the sooner we can learn to share, build together and appreciate what is around us. How does this tie in with abortion? It actually goes both ways:

• A mother does not abort her child because she realizes that her own wants/needs are not important and that she needs to just take care of what is in front of her (in this case being a new child)
• A mother does not keep her child because she realizes that her own wants/needs will end up being the death of the child anyway.

The world is not so black and white. Whenever drugs, abortion, religion, and suicide are discussed on forums, people want to grab for the absolutes. Life just doesn't work that way, despite what we may want to believe to keep us warm at night in our own temporary existences.

Basically, yes, though I lean toward it being immoral, but hold back judgement on those going the clothes hanger route.

I've viewed videos where it's shown done, and it's not a pretty site. The fetus is torn apart, and you can see life trying to save itself. And that's during the first trimester.

It's not a matter of less rights, it's an issue of the mother's trauma, some women are stronger than others, mentally, birthing the child putting it up for adoption, or outright raise them as their own. Some cannot, and raise the child, knowing every day the child was a product of an unwilling act. Mothers that raise these kids hate them as much as their 'attackers'.



Every day, if not the parents or the family, society.

Anyone going to mention the effect legalised abortion has on reducing crime? Oh wait, i just did.

I think that abortion is somewhat immoral, but in the same way that doing drugs might be considered immoral. It's a personal matter, and not anyone else's business.

This is one of the tricky issues that anarcho-capitalist polycentric legal systems are very good at dealing with.  There would be protection agencies that allow abortion and protection agencies that do not. Pro-abortion agencies would be more expensive. People who feel strongly that abortion should be illegal could effectively discourage abortion by spending money to make pro-abortion agencies even more expensive relative to anti-abortion agencies.


This doesn't make sense. If the goal of banning abortion is to save lives, then why are some lives worth less than others?

If not for medical or other proven reasons it should be considered immoral - and a form of murder! (No I'm not coming from a religious point of view here!)

It's killing life.... Nothing more or less. If you do it to "get rid of an accident" because you did not care for protection while fucking around, then you should be prosecuted by law for murder; nothing less.  There is plenty stuff to present pregnancy, especially for woman (and a few for man).

With couples or married people it should need an agreement of both parents (man and woman) and an expert opinion.
No woman should have the right to decide that on her own! (I'm not talking about the other proven reasons here. If the child is not capable of live or the child was made by a crime, then after proven so <yes there are woman who lie about rape and NO we don't have a so called "rape culture" where every man has a "rape" switch built in.....!>, abortion could be an option)

Personal opinion: If you are offended by it you have my permission to cry your eyes out!
 

I believe forcing your own morals on someone when it is their choice what to do with their body is immoral if we can even decently define 'morality' which I believe we can't, I'll give my opinion, but in the end as with anything it's up to the people involved to decide for themselves and they can't be forced, I do think abortion on an early basis at least is okay but again, it's up to the mother and this is all extremely personal. Not only that, it's women who are having the baby, so they're the ones who are going to have to go through the trauma of the birth why the hell should a board room of men ( *cough* American catholics *cough ) have any right to decide for women without even properly knowing the situation or even acknowledging the amount of emotional stress they be under? It's reminds me a bit of seeing silly comments by women as well thinking that men can't be raped by a woman while having absolutely no idea what having a penis is like.

I'm sure there will be people who will argue with me about this and I know not all religious people will be like what I describe but honestly, these people who tell us that abortion is 'immoral' are the same people who molest/rape children ( or cover it up ) and think beating them to 'discipline' them is okay so they can go fuck themselves, that goes for all conspiracies that seek to enforce their vision of morality on anyone.

Sums it up!


Well, there's a legal distinction between manslaughter and murder, and this is pretty similar.

Is suicide still a crime in the US?

Yep. I wonder what the sentence is for successfully committing suicide.

I think capital punishment would be suitable for a sucessful suicide.

Actually, you might be on to something. They could make your corpse property of the state, using it for science or however they please as a deterrent to those who have a sense of "honor" in their stinking corpses. (Personally I think the idea of leaving a dead body is insane and will make sure I am cremated)

The reason I'm asking about it an abortion thread, is that as an European, the notion of bodily property rights is quite strong, and the is never any debate about abortion here, ofcause Italy is different.

There was a strange case in Germany 10 years ago, where a guy advertised himself as a cannibal seeking someone who wanted to be eaten by him.

A 30 years old single engineer replied and they ate his genitals at their first diner date. Afterwards he hit him in the head with the frying pan and carved him up and put him in the freezer.

the guy was aquitted as it was a case of concending assisted suicide, which is legal in Germany. However they confiscated the meat left in the freezer as disrespectfull handling of bodyparts is a crime still.

How would that have gone down in an American court?

I think that's a waste. You have so many body parts that would make so many people happy, and not in a cannibalistic way either. Maybe just cremate the bits no one wants.

Forcing someone is wrong thats true... Expressing an opinion is ok to but:

How could you force that decision onto a father? Whats his share in the decision? Why does the women decide that?

What is this BS about "a room of men deciding over the poor women's womb"?   

It must be a real trauma to go thru birth seeing 7 billion people on earth surface....:/



Yes I'm going to try to argue with this:

So what you intend to say is that if people personally don't like abortion or are against it are automatically molesters or rapists that only want to cover up their "sins" by conspiracy?

So I'm that because i have an opinion (or a penis)?

And you think that children (or people) just don't need any form of discipline at all? Just let them do everything they want without telling them about cause and effect? So fucking around with not remorse is ok?

Everyone kills everyday just to survive.  Bacteria, insects, plants, cows/pigs/chickens, etc.  The only difference between those creatures and humans is our chemical bond (aka love) between the mother and her offspring.  However those chemicals are not produced until near the end of the pregnancy.  To me there is no difference between killing a fertilized human egg and killing a fertilized chicken egg.  I do feel differently the closer a baby gets to full term however - a fully developed baby is inside the womb should be no different than one outside the womb.

It's the woman's body, so it's her choice.  Anyone who disagrees should be forced to carry an invasive and uncomfortable device on their body against their will for nine months, then be subjective to some torture and mutilation at the end.

In my household, my experience is that you only get to have one of them

What I'm saying BR0KK is that the people who are against abortion are often both deeply religious and catholic and the fact is for the catholic church at least it does seem to be comprised of an alarming number of child molesters/rapists so I honestly don't really care if I offend people by saying I think they should stay the fuck away from thinking they can tell people what is the morally 'correct' thing to do with children. It's a deeply personal thing and no state, ideology or bullshit sense of righteousness is going to be the answer for every human being out there and people should respect that.

Believe it or not I'm actually being fairly diplomatic here, but if we spin the situation around and put it on a situation where we're on the receiving end, if there was a small mob of women going around tell you you have to go and get a vasectomy and they were lobbying the government to introduce it into law you'd be pretty pissed everyone was telling you what to do with your body wouldn't you? Granted, me personally? If I could get a completely reversible chemical based option I'd probably have it done until I was 40 just so I could have sex with a woman without any consequences lol but that's just me.

I just think it's bullshit to have the discussion at all really on a political level, it's the typical warning from past people beyond the grave where if you get religion involved too much with the state everything goes mental.

Quick aside, yet on-topic: Today, I'm a great-uncle--again! A baby shower was planned for today, but canceled due to the pending ice storm heading our way from KC, couple with my niece delivering the 0.39285714 stone, 1.813 megalithic yard, baby boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto) early this morning.

At no time during the pregnancy was there an iota of talk of her aborting, always wishing her a healthy baby (which he is) and hopefully she's able to go full term (+2 weeks early), for she miscarried two prior. The father is a cool dude, smokes a little dank (niece doesn't partake), but has held the same job for over eight years.

Before anybody ask, no, I'm not planning on taking him bowling once his weight increases threefold.  ::)

In case you have forgotten in takes TWO people to make a human baby meaning that that baby is not only hers but also her partners. And it takes less than a full term for the baby to develop to an extent where it may be considered as ''human''. The heart starts beating regularly after 6 weeks of gestation.

Humans treat the first few years of human life as all important and place little or no value on the elderly. There is minimal material investment in children but up to a century of investment in the elderly. Either every life is sacred or none of them are. Governments are in error with nearly every ruling because broad investigations of concept are forgone to satisfy the momentary demand of the populace. Some governmental ruling must be reached immediately to placate the people. A government will rule it illegal to kill a fetus while concurrently murdering thousands of fully educated materially invested adults in unjust military actions to satisfy a government goal. This hypocrisy is created by a system attempting to legislate beyond its ability. Certain topics, abortion being one, should always be left to the individual.

Is abortion then immoral or not immoral? There is no answer to this question because morality is subjective.

I was in a store immediately after the Sandy Hook massacre.  There was a woman in there talking on a cell phone.  She was being a little loud, and while I wasn't intentionally trying to snoop on her conversation, I couldn't help but hear what she was saying. 

"It is hard to get upset about 20 kids getting killed, when 1,000 babies are killed every day in this country because of abortion."

(I don't remember the exact number she said.)

I normally have a pretty relaxed personality, but it really took everything I had from asking that woman if she knew how mentally disturbed she was. 

Of course I knew the answer already, she has no idea how screwed in the brain she is. 

Part of that problem Nolo is that western propaganda in particular has successfully hardwired a lot of people from birth to care more about some human beings than others, the woman was a bitch, but there are millions of people who die around us on this planet every day and there's nothing we can do about it, it's just something that has to be accepted, it should be fought at every opportunity of course, but accepted.

That's still implying that there is a trend in these fucktard's molesting and raping..... Thats simply not true:)

Not exactly the same situation here. Cutting my tubes (I'm confident to do that when 40) is not like aborting a fetus. If there were a "mob of protesting woman" i would just outright ignore them (they can go fuck themselves, like these religios braindead people).

Did you read what if written?
Where is the father in this situation? Doesn't he count a bit?

And again..... Life comes with responsibility!



Thats exactly what woman have now.... and they even don't have to pay for it :/ Its just a pill to take whats the difficulty for the majority of women?
Men only have the Condom, the option not to have sex or get there tubes cut (not for free like the other part of the human species)....

I would definitely be among the first to take those pills if they were existent (but sad as it is, they never will!).
 
I'm not implying religion here..... morals are NOT in any case religious :/ It sounds like they have a copyright on that?

I took the red pill a month ago .... Your time to decide now brother :)

Google: MGTOW!

Congratz :)

Thanks, bud. I think I saw another gray hair in my beard.

If it happened today, is an abortion justified?: http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~WS30/WS30F1998/nrosado3.html

Right to malevolent :)


@mlawrence

Her body, her choice = you briefcase! :)

I'm not a woman but i can not under any circumstances believe that getting pregnant and giving birth is such an "invasive and uncomfortable" act and "torture and mutilation" at the end ....Naturally these poor oppressed woman get pregnated by force of a big opressing patriarch...:/  

Holy shit!: http://media.gunaxin.com/top-ten-celebs-who-had-abortions/16941

Forcing someone to to such a thing is immoral and a crime. As i said if there is a case (proven) then i don't see a problem with abortion. If in any case there isn't, then its for personal "feelings" (not the right word.... its just like a plastic surgery. Not for health just to feel god)


@All
again i'm not a woman.... i cant even consider how it would be to get an abortion (or lose a child out of other reasons). I just can't belive that this is an easy decison to make and live with....

and I'm not in any case saying that rape or molesting is not a crime or scaling it down. All i imply is that there is NOT a elfin rape culture out there!

Thats what i'm telling .... they are getting abortions because they were let me quote:






Out of what reason ...:/

Not sure if that if is accurate but if only a little then this is so harmful for society. We are basically telling our kids that fooling around comes with no consequences after all!

You know whats good about being a man.... Getting older :)