Bitcoin Forum

*IF* the appropriate Legal Regulations are put into place for Crypto (like the Stock Markets)

Until that day i do not support them.

So does anyone see what i mean and agree with me on that ?

Right now i think they are an unfair, unsafe / too risky, invalid *centralized* distribution methods.

Your opinion ?

But we dislike regulations, banksters and such stuff. Aren't we? We dislike scammers too, so this is a difficult question. On one side we have banksters and lawyers on the other side we have scammers and a few honest guys (being a honest guy not necessary means that the coin will be successful). Which one do you like more?

The only regulation needed is freedom of information and freedom of economics. What you're suggesting is authoritarianism.

You're an enemy of freedom.

If that's true then why are all the plebs trying to make a big deal out of crypto:banking relationships?

Regulation is not your enemy, even if the banks are

Totally agree. Too open to scams and manipulation

Should be a few guidelines they have to adhear to.

The problem is not regulation, it is lack of consistency and clairvoyance

the entire point of p2p currency is to be indifferent to regulation !!!!!

simply members of this community should not support scams such as the blatant ones involving IPO/ICOs etc

funny we have this whole new potentially amazing future with p2p currency yet people can't get their heads outside of the old world fiat system.

and what centralised authority is going to make and force adhesion to said guidelines  ::)

But we can make so much money if we invest in the right ico.
Look at eth.

whats the point of being an alternative to the greedy bankers of the world if we ourselves become the greedy bankers  ???

yes as you clearly point out most the members of this community aren't in it to create a p2p currency that has unlimited potential to change the world in a hugely positive way; but simple in it out of greed to get more old world fiat  :'(

yes it wil be like this for a while, maybe when bitcoin is 50 years old we wont be here anymore.

So I did. Now tell me why should I have been part of the ICO?

Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan been the better monthes to stack up on ETH.
Each ICO usually drops like 60% down in value on market entry.
It's proven best practice to bypass the ICO and buy later.

When i started mid-2013 roughly i had that gut reaction too.
But, VERY Fast i realized that whether we like it nor Regulations are coming anyway..
So.. i changed my tune on it all.
And since i seen my predictions come true.. and i warned people for years now a hell of a LOT!
I have said like a broken record if we don't get active and participate in creating rules
they will be MADE FOR US (by Governments) on our behalf.
This is EXACTLY what has been happening.
And when we had our chance to be heard like in New York about the matter in 2014 no one cared.
When i brought this up anywhere last few years all i have heard is "so what, fuck 'em!"
And comments like "They can't stop us" or "We don't need any connections to Fiat"
That is just naive and childish angst.
The whole "Crypto Hippy / Rebel" routine is admiral & all but NOT realistic in the slightest.

Anyone that has gotten to know me over the Years wound up hearing me Defend "Piracy"
I prefer to call it "File Sharing" ..so trust me i REALLY do get that crypto (no-rules) mentality.

I got two points here on that i want to highlight..

1) I agree Banks are fairly perceived as the enemy and i can't stand them all myself.
But i don't see Fiat going away for another 50 to 100 years at the earliest.
And i also do not think we can expand Crypto around the world with out a LOT of ties to Fiat. (mass adoption)
We need to learn to work with banks and this can ONLY be done with a level of realistic legal compliance.
You can not side step this!
Banks already have laws as it is so to interact with them we need to abide by law and maybe new ones to come.

2) A better way you all should look at the Laws / Crypto-Regulations issue is,
we should work WITH them with drafting regulations.
I have never ever proposed that we simply let them impose their own created rules onto us.
The various governments are over-paid idiots so why would i want them running the show calling the shots ?
Question is.. do you all think you can escape the grasp of Law and government intervention etc ?
I don't think it's possible.
For example You can say "Fuck 'em, i will do what i want" but many countries like Canada have already instituted
Tax laws that stipulate you HAVE to claim crypto profits / earnings on your tax returns.
So some guy can spout off like a Crypto-Rebel saying "Fuck 'em" all he wants..
It won't stop Revenue Canada from putting him in jail for 10 years though.
Al Capone was untouchable and what brought him down ? ..Regulations!

- So to recap, i have been saying for years we need to work with "them" to create rules / laws.

Answer me this guys would the FBI / SEC etc be ok with US Stock Market IPO's or ICO's if
..they were NOT regulated by them ?
And don't underestimate the impact of the threat of the FBI kicking your door in..
you guys can say well it's still corrupt and people still break the law.
But imagine having NO LAWS.

Seems a lot of crypto guys love all the laws that enable their plush privileged way of life.
You all enjoy the roads you drive on paid for by Tax money taken by force from people
and you all enjoy the street lights and traffic laws that make the system run..

But all of a sudden when it comes time to making money of some crypto coin IPO
..you all turn into crypto-hippy's chanting FREE MARKET™  :D

Hey guys.. it's been 7 years now, Time to grow up.

And yeah..
This is yet another topic i don't think even once have i seen another guy bring up.
Once again i am the guy that has to start this discussion..
Head in the sand on purpose or just being ignorant to what is looming ?
I see the crypto scene for the most part act like this all is just going to stay this way forever.
Why the hell do you think so many exchanges started a policy where you have to provide proof of your identity ?
They did it to comply with FIAT related laws.

So you can sit in the corner and sulk being a stubborn child about Regulations,
but don't complain when the decisions end up being made for you on your behalf.
(Sort of like not voting then spouting off about how the guy in charge is doing a bad job)

The Chinese are fanatics, you cannot stop them. Americans are just speculators, but have more money.

Regulation, banks, politicians and centralization are unfortunately coming in the same package. I few times I've pointed out how funny when alleged crypto fans are praising coins what made close relationships with banks.

That's fine, but who will contribute to the regulation on behalf of this community? The Bitcoin Foundation could have been that, but the leadership were after the quick buck (and some of them were common criminals) so they lost their significance by now. Then who else?

There are nobody who are accepted by this community and also taken seriously by the other side. So being a part of the regulation process is a dream what won't happen. BTW who are the other side? That side is also widely divided and there are very little cooperation between states and financial organizations. I believe you are too optimistic and we will end up with a lot of localized government imposed regulations and we will have to accept and live with that or fight a guerilla war for our money by moving it to the country what provides the best environment and the less disruptive regulations.

yep was once about an alternative to the greedy bankers, now many crypto dev teams are promoting themselves as making backends for the banks, ya just gotta laugh  :'(

again the point of p2p currency is to be indifferent to regulation and if where smart enough/dedicated enough we can make this happen, people are just too busy scrounging around for small bits of fiat to see the much larger picture.

P2P currency, exchanges and marketplaces are the way to avoid/bypass regulations. I think we need more effort on the marketplace part as I still cant buy two rolls and a pint of milk with BTC. Unfortunately bitcoin merchandise, precious metals and mining gears aren't edible :).

i agree early days yet, and we have to focus on the right direction, i personally don't consider bitcoin all that useful as a proper p2p currency (its kinda the distraction).

bring back ur penguin avatar

Agree, a quick microtransaction optimized coin would be better and probably that's the right direction.

I too would like to see a digital currency take hold world wide independent of regulations.
but as we can see there *so far* has been a massive need to transfer FIAT wealth / value etc
to & from the mighty fiat dollar to Bitcoin..
When BTC exploded back in late 2013 i had started mid 2013 when it was pretty much dead still.
I was privileged enough to have shown up just in time to see the before & after (showing me some context on it all)
I remember i just couldn't bloody believe how many noobs were coming out of nowhere
one after another on Cryptsy chat alone.. chanting on average once every minute or two..
"how do i get money from my bank to Cryptsy?" (back then Cryptsy had no Fiat support / markets)
Shit went INSANE!

Ever since i seen WHO was coming and WHY.
And i rallied ever since to look at the larger picture.. for one thing for our profits.
Having a toxic / self-destructive attitude about all this and doing things that are self-defeating
for small amounts of profit is foolish when we could be making HONEST & sincere efforts
and way later realize a far grander larger profit... we are killing crypto for chump change i have said non stop.

kesley you said..


i like that choice of words.
When i have brought up those issues all i have ever gotten is a highly aggressive response from most people.
They simply bark at me like i am telling them i am on a mission to get bad laws applied to us in Crypto.
Since then all these exchanges have instituted Picture ID requirements.. so i was right!
And what can we do ? At the very least keep an ongoing dialog about it going in the hopes
that the financial regulators WHO ARE WATCHING will see what we want..

THEY -DID- ask us to input our feedback on this specific matter and there was a topic
or two in the Bitcoin section here about it but all we did is is get mouthy and chant rebellious Crypto rebel rabble.
Funny how 100% of people out there said they can't do anything "fuck 'em" then how these same guys
..later sent their Picture ID to Cryptsy or Poloniex etc hahahha

What i am trying hard to say here is this..
Can we get the goal of Crypto done.. reach the end-game with out interacting with the Fiat system ?
So far i don't see how we can do it.. what happens when the average person out there
see this stuff and says ok, well.. how do i BUY a Bitcoin? (or ANY Altcoin)
That right there is a wall.. a Gate to Crypto! ...and the wall is regulated with Financial Laws.

And no i don't want to hear about exceptions to the rule either.. for the most part we have heavy ties to Fiat.
Govt's are not giving us a free pass with no laws they are just dragging their feet on how they are going to handle this.
Canada issued a public statement years ago saying you have to claim your Crypto earnings.
And Coindesk years ago ran a story about two guys arrested in a parking lot by the FBI..
The met on Local Bitcoins and sold $30,000 usd worth of BTC.. they were violating anti-money laundering laws in Florida.

I just don't think the majority of Crypto profiteers newer to Crypto even grasp what is and *has* gone on.
They simply take it for granted that this is how it is NOW and they can just keep investing in "Schemes"
assuming they are legal & safe etc.
What are you going to do if Mintpal or Gox or Cryptsy or.. walk off with your money ?
Amazing how all the people cry for the Police and LAW when their coins are stolen
and they demand BTER roll back the block chain after the NXT hack way back etc..

I created the thread(s) that attempts to decipher what the existing law is on this issue:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218399.0

I have concluded that offering an ICO/IPO is incredibly risky for the developers and insiders. I think the G20 will eventually come after them in a concerted cooperation by governments to appease the voters who are fed up with corruption in government and banking. The G20 will use this as a political witch hunt to divert attention from the sovereign debt collapse that socialism created.

Having said that, philosophically I would wish for absolutely no regulation and let fools loose their money because they are fools. That should move the money to those who aren't fools and thus make the economy more productive.

But making decisions based on what I wish to be, is not a pragmatic methodology. Being a lead developer on my own crypto project, I must obey the law that is, not my fantasies of what I wish it would be.

That doesnt mean the economy is more productive.Speculators/scamers for instance arent that useful for that purpose.And $ easy made is $ easy spent.

The power-law distribution of wealth insures that the money ends up with those who know how to save and invest[1].

[1] A. Dragulescu and V. Yakovenko. Exponential and power-law probability distributions of wealth and income in the United Kingdom and the United States

big flaw in this is all those involved in ICOs are fools, so there is no redistribution of the money simply just fools passing it to fools.

I missed guy commenting on my Avatar LOL
I was wondering if anyone noticed (i had to refresh my pages to see it myself)
Just trying to change it up a bit for a while ;)
It's a mod i made of the "Backtrack" Linux distrib Logo. (Now called Kali)

Not trying to redirect the conversation here but would you guys
against IPO/ICO's be willing to support them if there were similar rules applied like in the US Stock Markets ?
I think this view on it is far too often ignored.
I can envision some people saying well it would not stop criminals.
No law we have stops criminals as it is.. any of them!
But having them in various aspects of our lives greases the wheels and keeps society moving along.
Me i think it would make a huge difference.
Just imagine the threat of possibly going to jail for "insider Trading" in crypto.

All i have ever heard is how these are like the stocks in a stock market..
Ok fine then, let's add the stock market laws too.
Or drop the dumb comparisons  :D

EDIT:
I appreciate the feedback too guys.
TPTB_need_war in some ways is way smarter than me so he can go over my head at times.
Which is all the more reason to speak up.. maybe i will learn something.
And always good to see kelsey joining in!
(the rest of you too guys like snail who i like)

I am not after perfection but what concerns me is the tilt of corruption in Crypto leans to far in a bad direction.
Overall i'd like to see Crypto move in a constructive / positive direction.
I also do not see drama as bad and needs to be stifled.
In something like this i would have to expect a lot of friction and disagreements.
And we are only going to move forward by talking it out (or trolling each other to death) hahahhah
Since i got here with Crypto it has been an evolving learning experience for me.. in many ways.
Many users will get their first opportunity to confront their morality with temptations of profits.
All of a sudden you can be confronted with a tough decision in crypto.. do i lower my integrity for profit ?
Anyway ;)
I got to say i really did not expect IPO / ICO style coins to take over the scene and be such a dominating force.
I sure as hell never predicted that coming..

Seems you missed my post refuting you before you wrote yours. Or perhaps you thought the ICO insiders concentrate wealth into their hands, but no they end up losing all the money to those who properly save and invest. Crime and fooling others doesn't pay. Trust me, every person with bad ethics ends up in the gutter eventually. I am 51 years old this June. I have the wisdom to see that cheating always eventually ends up biting the cheater's own ass. For example, these ICO insiders will very likely end up in trouble with the securities regulators ex post facto.

Even Goldman Sachs et al are going to lose everything eventually. The time is coming...

Keep your ethics strong but don't become a dogmatic preacher, and you will live a long and productive life.

This topic here is a bit old but is relevant now a days.
I still stand behind my beliefs and never wavered from them ever once.
I am curious why so many support ICO's now when there is such a gaping hole..
What aspect of them seem legit to you all ?
How can you justify supporting them for profits ?
The end result product of sorts ?
Since when has that meant anything to anyone ?

Do you all yet see what this is yet ?
It is in fact a hollow pointless scammy charade ..fer teh ROI's.