Bitcoin Forum

I have been considering creating a token on counterparty, or NEM, or maybe even creating an Alt, though an alt would increase costs. Considering the investors will be receiving the product as pay/benefit instead of cash, would this still be a security?

What is the best way to go about it outside of startjoin.com, banktothefuture.com or swarm.fund which seems to have apoptosed?

You have everything you need here :) just add a few parts to the mix:

Cogent idea
Transparent operation
Clear plan of action
Identifiable, legally liable actors
Honesty and integrity in operation.

I'm not trolling you. From what I've seen , that is so lacking from the overwhelming majority of what people chuck money at here that you could use the fuckin forum and a btc address to collect immense value. You can do less and get by. But if you truly want to make a difference, some shit that people will talk about, don't dismiss me.

Id counterparty, and if Uncle Sam comes to get that ass, yes, it is considered a security. the sec has a boner for this particular nuance of security law, be careful ;) understand that if you succeed, it won't be a deal, but if you fail, many angry people will expose the more sensitive parts of your personal life on reddit, and sue you into small pieces.

You are welcome :D

What is your goal?

Is your goal to rob a bunch of idiots?

If yes, it's easy to do here. Start a self moderated thread. throw out some word salad that doesn't make any sense that uses a bunch of buzzwords you will see all over the forum. Promise incredible returns, sit back and collect money from idiots.

Are you trying to start a real business?

If yes, can you earn bitcoins? I hope the answer to that is yes, because if it isn't, you should go somewhere else. If your only business plan is "do something and get rich when the price goes up" I have an alternative business plan that will work out better for everyone, I'll even give it away for free, "do nothing and get rich when the price goes up."

If you have an actual way to earn bitcoins and still need/want investment you can do some of this stuff to get started.

Tell us who you are.

Tell us why you need our money.

Tell us exactly what you are going to do with our money.

Tell us how you are qualified to do what you say you are going to do.

Tell us how this will make more bitcoins for both of us.

Tell us how you are going to prove that you are doing exactly what you said you were going to do in the previous questions.

Tell us who you are.

In due time, though with a little research its easy to have most of my info. Meanwhile, got to save some face since this place can be brutal.

Tell us why you need our money.


In order to invest it in Viticulture and hopefully raise a profit for all involved. From my analysis, vineyards are a plant once, maintain for 35 - 40 years crop, which is a medium maintenance crop. Further, the end products which are grapes, grape juice and wine have an international market. Though I've come to learn the US has hangovers from the abolitionist period that limit importation of alcoholic drinks. But the world is far much greater than the US.

Tell us exactly what you are going to do with our money.


1. Tie down a 50yr lease of land. 5 hectares as a start would do, with a target to expand to 100 hectares within 5 years.
2. Plant several South African vines, and local varieties of Italian origin.
3. Develop supporting infrastructure such as stores and employee quarters, an irrigation system with an all weather borehole.
4. Enter into a grapes for wine contract with a local vintner, they do produce some award winning wines.
5. Pay my investors in wine, in order to reduce shipping and handling costs, bag in box wine containers should do, so that you will have to bottle the wine at destination. For those that can handle the extra cost, I could ship the wines in bottle or those high capacity metallic containers.

Grapes are also used in the manufacture of brandy, so that could also be part of the bag.


Tell us how you are qualified to do what you say you are going to do.


I am a farmer, technology enthusiast and live in a wine producing region. I'm also always on the lookout for projects that have a good return with minimal engagement, which is what is often called passive income, but sine I'll be running the farm, the passive income will have to wait until am able to package it and sell to a bigger operation.


Tell us how this will make more bitcoins for both of us.


The wines once delivered can be resold. But, its also possible to get paid directly upon delivery of the grapes to the vintner.


Tell us how you are going to prove that you are doing exactly what you said you were going to do in the previous questions.

From using online farm management Apps, to being transparent all along the way. I'm not from the US, so I'll work with the legal process in my country in order to ensure all avenues for legal redress are available. It would also be wonderful to convert part of the farm into a wine tourism spot, so that all and any of you can coe have pleasure while doing business.

Yes, thats about it.

So you are going to collect bitcoins to start a vineyard in the US from outside of the country?

Or are you moving to the US?

Sounds like a horrific idea.

Why shouldn't I just invest dollars in a current vineyard? If you are successful will you be able to give me more bitcoins than I give you if the price of coins goes up? If it goes down?

Are you doing this successfully where you are? If yes, why are you doing this project? if no, why do you think you can do this project?

Anyone investing real money would need hard numbers?

You are going to "pay" in wine? Why not just buy wine instead of sending money to an anonymous person in hopes to get wine back way far down the line?

No am not moving to the US.

Yes you can invest in a current vineyard. I have not thought about the pricing of bitcoin, but since all my suppliers and primary customer only deal in Fiat currency, It would be prudent to pay you back in fiat, bitcoin would be the rails to transfer the value.

Yes, you'll get the numbers.

Payment in wine is an option, a good one for me since the farm will then have come with a ready market for its produce. Though it would be optional and provide an opportunity for the investors to get a reliable and regular supply of good quality wine. Grafted vineyards start producing within a year, with max production capacity starting in the second/third year. Guess that is eons in bitcoin time, but at some point we all need to step back into the real world.

Don't really see the point in seeking investment in a non-bitcoin thing here, since fluctuations in bitcoin price will inevitably end up fucking over the investor (since the person holding/receiving the coin has all the power) but if you are trying to seek investment, here or anywhere else, you are going to be giving out a lot more information before people are going to give you money.

Hard numbers and a business plan to explain what the hell is going on before anyone with a brain even thinks of giving you a penny.

Thanks, got one thing to deliver, a business plan, since that would have all the numbers.

Meanwhile, what would be the objections to receiving product as payment or benefit?

is the value of the product calculated at a distributor or consumer rate?

For large investors, a large disbursement of 'product dividend' (work with me here) might cause a liquidity issue. Since these investors will have to sell the product to recoup spendable value, how can you assure they will not use value due to tax/tariffs? Or that said product will be legal to vend in their locale (the UAE, for example, prohibits alcohol).

Additional concerns:

It's been getting very hot and dry on a global scale. As a gardening enthusiast myself, what can you do to protect this investment against default due to catastrophic failure (extreme drought, heat, or weather that completely devalues a crop). Would this asset be protected with crop insurance?

The objection would be that if I want wine, I can do it with a lot less risk by going to a liquor store.

What's easier? Walk down the block, hand someone cash, get wine.

Or, send you bitcoins. wait for you to buy land, plants grapes, turn them into wine, then mail it.

The value will be calculated at distributor rates. A vineyard produces, Grapes, which can become 'table grapes', or made into grape juice, made further into wine or distilled into brandy. Those are four products, each with its niche market and existing market players. My highly idealistic take is that using the distributed network of people in the bitcoin ecosystem, its possible to make inroads and even challenge the status quo in many industries, including the wine industry.

If I sold the grapes to the local vendor and paid my investors from that income, that would be tier one income, but if the same investors have a market for wine, they would then have a means to increase their income. Though of course accounting for time and opportunity, especially within this ecosystem, may remove that advantage.

Yes, our region understands crop insurance, though its a very recent innovation here. I would insure the crop, and vines really work well in the sun, a deep well irrigation system to cover any extended drought periods would also go a long way.

The investors would have to be in the wine industry, would they not?  I can't just go reselling wine without first jumping through a lot of hurdles.

Also, I am from the U.S.  I would imagine that shipping wine to me would eat up any profits, and it would require even more hurdles to jump.

If you are going to start with planting the vines, that will take at least 5 years for the yields to mature.  Add a couple more years to produce the right vintage.  This sounds like a long-term investment to me.

Why are you looking for investors on a bitcoin site and not a wine site? 

I'm not trying to knock your idea down, I am just thinking like a potential investor.  I hope your business plan accounts for questions like these.

Good luck!

If a local producer is producing a high quality product, why would he switch to your grapes? By switching what grapes he uses, he would be risking his entire reputation.

How much money would this require to get started? Getting paid in wine (which, no offense, would likely be $5 bucks a bottle) a few years down the line isn't the return the vast majority of people are looking for.

Current viticulture technology ensures you are up and running within two years. First year gets you approximately half the yield, second about two thirds and then its full production onward. Good questions there, will include them in my pitch.

Why here? Because am a believer. This is disruption on very many levels. This is a unique market which will definitely expand to touch very many areas of life and society. So yeah, I'd really like to eat into the wine industry and market, this ecosystem provides a unique vehicle for that.

Thanks for the mind share.



My vines will be supplied by the same producer, plus there's more varieties coming from the same vintner so that is covered.

There seems to be an invisible wall designed to keep out new wineries from hitting the global market, yes 5$ a bottle is alright, but I'm trying for 3$ or less for a 500ml portion. Bottle technology is a-changing, and the ways in which wine can be kept and transported is changing too.

Anyway, back to crunching and verifying these numbers... They truly are hard numbers.

So someone should invest money in this, and a year or two later they might get a bunch of cheap wine (thats not even worth paying the shipping costs for)?

It wouldn't be about getting cheap wine, but getting good wine cheaply. But that is all secondary since it would only work for those with a market, will and skill at selling. The primary market for these grapes will be the local vintner, who pays in cash, so most investors would expect income every year for the period we agree to work with.

But am also negotiating with them to produce and package a private line of wine for this venture, which would provide an extra, if not leveraged, source of income for those that can handle wine sales.

Most of the idiots on this forum have no clue what they're doing or talking about Re: Investing and wouldn't know a good pitch if it hit them in the face. Do what you want to do and the right people will find you if you announce it. Simple as that. There's no right or wrong way.

To most of the respondents so far:

All these posters here want to remain anonymous internet trolls, yet expect anyone they do business with to be examined under a microscope.

It doesn't work that way with bitcoins due to the entire reason for using bitcoins being privacy and anonymity.

Did it occur to any of you twats who think you get to be anonymous but the counterparty has to be "transparent" that some investments work better with a mutual trust and no transparency? Yes, there are plenty such investments that are not illegal but are also not something that should be plastered around publicly.

Do you want opportunities to make ROI or are you going to spend $2K for a minining rig so you can earn $6 per month for one month, and then $3 the next month, and $1.5 the next. lol

If you are not willing to support a business/investment on the same basis that you support bitcoins in the first place - the freedom of being able to transact without government/banking middlemen - then you should convert all your coins to a real currency and get out of here. You don't belong here.

I don't see a single respondent here posting under their REAL NAME, with a real address and phone number attached to their profile. If you don't want to share your deets, you have no right to demand or expect that from anyone else.

Funny, how all this "bitcoin community" shifting from "free and open" to "me me me" in just a few short years. Their attitudes are even worse than that of most investment bankers...it's hilariously pathetic.

Your logic is extremely flawed. Just because Bitcoin offers a level of anonymity that fiat currencies do not provide, does not mean that transactions with it must, or even should be non-transparent. If you are asking for an investment, it is perfectly reasonable for an investor to ask who you are, if you do not wish to provide them with that information you do not need to... And you won't be getting their investment.

And purchasing a mining rig would have a significantly better return (even though it would be a negative return), because this proposal would have the incredible return of.... losing your entire principle.

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and invest in every shitlisting you can find.   

You claim that my logic is flawed, yet you haven't actually identified a flaw. Bitcoin is intended to be anonymous and private and that goes BOTH WAYS.

The fundamental element that makes a currency succeed or fail is a mutual trust among those who use said currency that it has value.

If you want openness and transparency, you have those options with "traditional" investments like stocks and bonds, that come with multi-page prospectus documents. It's exactly because I do invest using bitcoins that I am responding to this thread and calling out the sniveling little idiots who got a few coins and suddenly think they're the central bank.

If an investment opportunity wants to disclose all kinds of info about itself, fine. If not, ALSO FINE. You, the investor, have 2 choices - invest or not. If you don't trust the offer, ignore it. Scams are fairly easy to spot with a bit of common sense.

Those who are demanding that bitcoin businesses and investment opportunities mirror their US dollar counterparts - if that's what you want, then why not just cash out your coin and buy stocks? What's keeping you from doing that?

If bitcoin businesses / investments cannot announce their opportunities without some schmuck immediately jumping in and criticizing them for missing info, a lack of a paper trail or any other nonsense, then the bitcoin has already failed in its "mission". The entire point of bitcoin is to GET AWAY from centralized control from government, bankers and monitoring of transactions...but you are encouraging the very thing that bitcoin was intended to avoid.

My logic is quite clear and sound.

Buying a 2k mining rig might be the only thing stupider than trusting an anonymous person on the internet to "invest" in when they have given zero clue about how they are going to make money.

It's not about "me me me," it's about common sense. I've sat here for years and watched people with your hare brained logic lose all their money to obvious scams. If someone isn't willing to give you the basic information of how they are going to invest your money the odds of them losing it or stealing it are much much higher. Sorry for pointing that out.

The days of just holding out your hands for "investments" and stealing money from a bunch of rubes are over.

Again, you have no clue what you are talking about. Bitcoin is completely open, all transactions are public. How is that private? Just because two parties agree that an object (Bitcoin in this case) has value does not mean you have to trust every other thing that person says. And this is not even a Bitcoin business, they would be converting Bitcoin to start a company operating in fiat.

Actually, it's the same wrongheaded thinking...if you were to tell someone who has no idea about bitcoins a quick summary like this:

"Did you know that you can mine bitcoins with your computer and then sell them for money? Yeah, all you have to do is run this program and when you get enough coins you can sell them."

That sounds like a 'scam' to just about any average person, but we know that it is one way to make money. Most people don't know or need to know the small details of how bitcoins work or why people are willing to trade them for USD and other currencies - they just do.

By the logic being put forth by most of the people here, bitcoin should have to be regulated by the SEC and have some kind of backing from a "real bank" to be "legit". Most people don't even know who wrote the bitcoin program in the first place or why, yet millions upon millions are willing to use it as a currency.

Does knowing 'how' matter if you make money? No, it doesn't.

Does knowing details or having the address to some business reduce or eliminate the chance that it is a scam, while one that prefers anonymity is more likely to be a scam? No, mtgox is a perfect example of this.


No fool deserves to be rich, so if they are scammed out of their money they either learn from their mistakes or stick to eating ramen for dinner. It's not your place to chime in with baseless claims about a business or investment telling people not to invest because you think it is a scam when you have no evidence to that fact.

I don't lose money, I can spot a scam quite easily on my own, without wannabe "do gooders" like you neffing threads with sanctimonious tripe about how you know what's good and what's not.

Nobody is forcing anyone here to participate with any business or investment being posted. That is the INDIVIDUAL'S DECISION ALONE. And if you do not have actual verifiable evidence that something is a scam, you have no business making such accusations.

It is very likely that you are probably a shill for a bank or government trying to cast aspersions and make it seem like most bitcoin related stuff is "just a scam". Let me point to obama's wall st bailout, where after the banks duped investors into buying bad mortgage debt they got bailed out on the taxpayers' time for their misdeeds.

Let's get over the myth that more information = more legitimacy. Take the risk, or don't. It's your choice. Your chance to lose is always present, so you do not risk more than you are willing or able to lose. That's it.

You're really missing points here...

The transaction list is effectively anonymous, especially since most transactions generate a new address for each exchange. Transactions do not require anything other than the to and from addresses and amount - nothing particularly identifiable about that. More importantly, transactions are not regulated by a central entity. This is what allows for truly free trade without tariffs or limitations on the goods/services being exchanged...and it's also what makes bitcoins an easy target for scammers.

Nothing is entirely good or bad, but you don't nuke a whole city to get rid of the 1% of people who commit crimes.

You have the option to choose who you do business with based on your perception of their trustworthiness. You do not have the option to accuse a person, business or investment a "scam" simply because you feel that way. Nor do you have the option to demand that a business operate according to your preferences - if you don't like the way they do things then avoid them!

Imagine this: People who see you suggest that you murder children because you might look like a guy who does that. It's covered by 'free speech' because they never said you that you actually do that, they just say they think you might be the kind of person who does based on your appearance.

Are you OK with that kind of characterization by total strangers based purely on your appearance? Because that is the kind of environment you're advocating for here with bitcoins by making false claims about businesses and investments based on nothing other than casual whims.

All I have to say is you are clearly new here. I have a bridge for sale, only accept Bitcoin for investments and no questions can be asked. Sound good?

Is that your expert assessment?

From my profile here...
Date Registered: June 17, 2011

And I've been involved with bitcoins since before I joined this forum site...back when it was possible to mine several per day with GPUs, which I did, and which has resulted in me having hundreds of bitcoins.

Now go ahead and quote the part of my post where I said that an investor should do no due diligence. Go ahead, I'll wait...or we can to fast-forward to the time when you realize I never said that.

What I did say is that the buyer/investor is responsible for their own actions, including the decision of whom they do business with.

I also said that applying the expectations and paradigms of traditional business models and investments to bitcoin can only act as a hindrance, as those elements require centralization and institutional entities to create and enforce rules...in other words, it would become no different than the way things are now with standard currencies.