Whats the best way to pitch an investment here?

[Kebwesi]

I have been considering creating a token on counterparty, or NEM, or maybe even creating an Alt, though an alt would increase costs. Considering the investors will be receiving the product as pay/benefit instead of cash, would this still be a security?

What is the best way to go about it outside of startjoin.com, banktothefuture.com or swarm.fund which seems to have apoptosed?

[GreenBits]

You have everything you need here just add a few parts to the mix:

Cogent idea
Transparent operation
Clear plan of action
Identifiable, legally liable actors
Honesty and integrity in operation.

I'm not trolling you. From what I've seen , that is so lacking from the overwhelming majority of what people chuck money at here that you could use the fuckin forum and a btc address to collect immense value. You can do less and get by. But if you truly want to make a difference, some shit that people will talk about, don't dismiss me.

Id counterparty, and if Uncle Sam comes to get that ass, yes, it is considered a security. the sec has a boner for this particular nuance of security law, be careful understand that if you succeed, it won't be a deal, but if you fail, many angry people will expose the more sensitive parts of your personal life on reddit, and sue you into small pieces.

You are welcome

[Phildo]

What is your goal?

Is your goal to rob a bunch of idiots?

If yes, it's easy to do here. Start a self moderated thread. throw out some word salad that doesn't make any sense that uses a bunch of buzzwords you will see all over the forum. Promise incredible returns, sit back and collect money from idiots.

Are you trying to start a real business?

If yes, can you earn bitcoins? I hope the answer to that is yes, because if it isn't, you should go somewhere else. If your only business plan is "do something and get rich when the price goes up" I have an alternative business plan that will work out better for everyone, I'll even give it away for free, "do nothing and get rich when the price goes up."

If you have an actual way to earn bitcoins and still need/want investment you can do some of this stuff to get started.

Tell us who you are.

Tell us why you need our money.

Tell us exactly what you are going to do with our money.

Tell us how you are qualified to do what you say you are going to do.

Tell us how this will make more bitcoins for both of us.

Tell us how you are going to prove that you are doing exactly what you said you were going to do in the previous questions.

[Kebwesi]

Tell us who you are.

In due time, though with a little research its easy to have most of my info. Meanwhile, got to save some face since this place can be brutal.

Tell us why you need our money.


In order to invest it in Viticulture and hopefully raise a profit for all involved. From my analysis, vineyards are a plant once, maintain for 35 - 40 years crop, which is a medium maintenance crop. Further, the end products which are grapes, grape juice and wine have an international market. Though I've come to learn the US has hangovers from the abolitionist period that limit importation of alcoholic drinks. But the world is far much greater than the US.

Tell us exactly what you are going to do with our money.


1. Tie down a 50yr lease of land. 5 hectares as a start would do, with a target to expand to 100 hectares within 5 years.
2. Plant several South African vines, and local varieties of Italian origin.
3. Develop supporting infrastructure such as stores and employee quarters, an irrigation system with an all weather borehole.
4. Enter into a grapes for wine contract with a local vintner, they do produce some award winning wines.
5. Pay my investors in wine, in order to reduce shipping and handling costs, bag in box wine containers should do, so that you will have to bottle the wine at destination. For those that can handle the extra cost, I could ship the wines in bottle or those high capacity metallic containers.

Grapes are also used in the manufacture of brandy, so that could also be part of the bag.


Tell us how you are qualified to do what you say you are going to do.


I am a farmer, technology enthusiast and live in a wine producing region. I'm also always on the lookout for projects that have a good return with minimal engagement, which is what is often called passive income, but sine I'll be running the farm, the passive income will have to wait until am able to package it and sell to a bigger operation.


Tell us how this will make more bitcoins for both of us.


The wines once delivered can be resold. But, its also possible to get paid directly upon delivery of the grapes to the vintner.


Tell us how you are going to prove that you are doing exactly what you said you were going to do in the previous questions.

From using online farm management Apps, to being transparent all along the way. I'm not from the US, so I'll work with the legal process in my country in order to ensure all avenues for legal redress are available. It would also be wonderful to convert part of the farm into a wine tourism spot, so that all and any of you can coe have pleasure while doing business.

Yes, thats about it.

[Phildo]

So you are going to collect bitcoins to start a vineyard in the US from outside of the country?

Or are you moving to the US?

Sounds like a horrific idea.

Why shouldn't I just invest dollars in a current vineyard? If you are successful will you be able to give me more bitcoins than I give you if the price of coins goes up? If it goes down?

Are you doing this successfully where you are? If yes, why are you doing this project? if no, why do you think you can do this project?

Anyone investing real money would need hard numbers?

You are going to "pay" in wine? Why not just buy wine instead of sending money to an anonymous person in hopes to get wine back way far down the line?

[Kebwesi]

So you are going to collect bitcoins to start a vineyard in the US from outside of the country?

Or are you moving to the US?

Sounds like a horrific idea.

Why shouldn't I just invest dollars in a current vineyard? If you are successful will you be able to give me more bitcoins than I give you if the price of coins goes up? If it goes down?

Are you doing this successfully where you are? If yes, why are you doing this project? if no, why do you think you can do this project?

Anyone investing real money would need hard numbers?

You are going to "pay" in wine? Why not just buy wine instead of sending money to an anonymous person in hopes to get wine back way far down the line?

No am not moving to the US.

Yes you can invest in a current vineyard. I have not thought about the pricing of bitcoin, but since all my suppliers and primary customer only deal in Fiat currency, It would be prudent to pay you back in fiat, bitcoin would be the rails to transfer the value.

Yes, you'll get the numbers.

Payment in wine is an option, a good one for me since the farm will then have come with a ready market for its produce. Though it would be optional and provide an opportunity for the investors to get a reliable and regular supply of good quality wine. Grafted vineyards start producing within a year, with max production capacity starting in the second/third year. Guess that is eons in bitcoin time, but at some point we all need to step back into the real world.

[Phildo]

Don't really see the point in seeking investment in a non-bitcoin thing here, since fluctuations in bitcoin price will inevitably end up fucking over the investor (since the person holding/receiving the coin has all the power) but if you are trying to seek investment, here or anywhere else, you are going to be giving out a lot more information before people are going to give you money.

Hard numbers and a business plan to explain what the hell is going on before anyone with a brain even thinks of giving you a penny.

[Kebwesi]

Thanks, got one thing to deliver, a business plan, since that would have all the numbers.

Meanwhile, what would be the objections to receiving product as payment or benefit?

[GreenBits]

is the value of the product calculated at a distributor or consumer rate?

For large investors, a large disbursement of 'product dividend' (work with me here) might cause a liquidity issue. Since these investors will have to sell the product to recoup spendable value, how can you assure they will not use value due to tax/tariffs? Or that said product will be legal to vend in their locale (the UAE, for example, prohibits alcohol).

[GreenBits]

Additional concerns:

It's been getting very hot and dry on a global scale. As a gardening enthusiast myself, what can you do to protect this investment against default due to catastrophic failure (extreme drought, heat, or weather that completely devalues a crop). Would this asset be protected with crop insurance?

[Phildo]

Thanks, got one thing to deliver, a business plan, since that would have all the numbers.

Meanwhile, what would be the objections to receiving product as payment or benefit?

The objection would be that if I want wine, I can do it with a lot less risk by going to a liquor store.

What's easier? Walk down the block, hand someone cash, get wine.

Or, send you bitcoins. wait for you to buy land, plants grapes, turn them into wine, then mail it.

[Kebwesi]

is the value of the product calculated at a distributor or consumer rate?

For large investors, a large disbursement of 'product dividend' (work with me here) might cause a liquidity issue. Since these investors will have to sell the product to recoup spendable value, how can you assure they will not use value due to tax/tariffs? Or that said product will be legal to vend in their locale (the UAE, for example, prohibits alcohol).

The value will be calculated at distributor rates. A vineyard produces, Grapes, which can become 'table grapes', or made into grape juice, made further into wine or distilled into brandy. Those are four products, each with its niche market and existing market players. My highly idealistic take is that using the distributed network of people in the bitcoin ecosystem, its possible to make inroads and even challenge the status quo in many industries, including the wine industry.

If I sold the grapes to the local vendor and paid my investors from that income, that would be tier one income, but if the same investors have a market for wine, they would then have a means to increase their income. Though of course accounting for time and opportunity, especially within this ecosystem, may remove that advantage.

Yes, our region understands crop insurance, though its a very recent innovation here. I would insure the crop, and vines really work well in the sun, a deep well irrigation system to cover any extended drought periods would also go a long way.

[TommyBitcoin]

The investors would have to be in the wine industry, would they not?  I can't just go reselling wine without first jumping through a lot of hurdles.

Also, I am from the U.S.  I would imagine that shipping wine to me would eat up any profits, and it would require even more hurdles to jump.

If you are going to start with planting the vines, that will take at least 5 years for the yields to mature.  Add a couple more years to produce the right vintage.  This sounds like a long-term investment to me.

Why are you looking for investors on a bitcoin site and not a wine site? 

I'm not trying to knock your idea down, I am just thinking like a potential investor.  I hope your business plan accounts for questions like these.

Good luck!

[AcoinL.L.C]

If a local producer is producing a high quality product, why would he switch to your grapes? By switching what grapes he uses, he would be risking his entire reputation.

How much money would this require to get started? Getting paid in wine (which, no offense, would likely be $5 bucks a bottle) a few years down the line isn't the return the vast majority of people are looking for.

[Kebwesi]

The investors would have to be in the wine industry, would they not?  I can't just go reselling wine without first jumping through a lot of hurdles.

Also, I am from the U.S.  I would imagine that shipping wine to me would eat up any profits, and it would require even more hurdles to jump.

If you are going to start with planting the vines, that will take at least 5 years for the yields to mature.  Add a couple more years to produce the right vintage.  This sounds like a long-term investment to me.

Why are you looking for investors on a bitcoin site and not a wine site? 

I'm not trying to knock your idea down, I am just thinking like a potential investor.  I hope your business plan accounts for questions like these.

Good luck!

Current viticulture technology ensures you are up and running within two years. First year gets you approximately half the yield, second about two thirds and then its full production onward. Good questions there, will include them in my pitch.

Why here? Because am a believer. This is disruption on very many levels. This is a unique market which will definitely expand to touch very many areas of life and society. So yeah, I'd really like to eat into the wine industry and market, this ecosystem provides a unique vehicle for that.

Thanks for the mind share.

If a local producer is producing a high quality product, why would he switch to your grapes? By switching what grapes he uses, he would be risking his entire reputation.

How much money would this require to get started? Getting paid in wine (which, no offense, would likely be $5 bucks a bottle) a few years down the line isn't the return the vast majority of people are looking for.

My vines will be supplied by the same producer, plus there's more varieties coming from the same vintner so that is covered.

There seems to be an invisible wall designed to keep out new wineries from hitting the global market, yes 5$ a bottle is alright, but I'm trying for 3$ or less for a 500ml portion. Bottle technology is a-changing, and the ways in which wine can be kept and transported is changing too.

Anyway, back to crunching and verifying these numbers... They truly are hard numbers.

[AcoinL.L.C]

The investors would have to be in the wine industry, would they not?  I can't just go reselling wine without first jumping through a lot of hurdles.

Also, I am from the U.S.  I would imagine that shipping wine to me would eat up any profits, and it would require even more hurdles to jump.

If you are going to start with planting the vines, that will take at least 5 years for the yields to mature.  Add a couple more years to produce the right vintage.  This sounds like a long-term investment to me.

Why are you looking for investors on a bitcoin site and not a wine site? 

I'm not trying to knock your idea down, I am just thinking like a potential investor.  I hope your business plan accounts for questions like these.

Good luck!

Current viticulture technology ensures you are up and running within two years. First year gets you approximately half the yield, second about two thirds and then its full production onward. Good questions there, will include them in my pitch.

Why here? Because am a believer. This is disruption on very many levels. This is a unique market which will definitely expand to touch very many areas of life and society. So yeah, I'd really like to eat into the wine industry and market, this ecosystem provides a unique vehicle for that.

Thanks for the mind share.

If a local producer is producing a high quality product, why would he switch to your grapes? By switching what grapes he uses, he would be risking his entire reputation.

How much money would this require to get started? Getting paid in wine (which, no offense, would likely be $5 bucks a bottle) a few years down the line isn't the return the vast majority of people are looking for.

My vines will be supplied by the same producer, plus there's more varieties coming from the same vintner so that is covered.

There seems to be an invisible wall designed to keep out new wineries from hitting the global market, yes 5$ a bottle is alright, but I'm trying for 3$ or less for a 500ml portion. Bottle technology is a-changing, and the ways in which wine can be kept and transported is changing too.

Anyway, back to crunching and verifying these numbers... They truly are hard numbers.

So someone should invest money in this, and a year or two later they might get a bunch of cheap wine (thats not even worth paying the shipping costs for)?

[Kebwesi]

The investors would have to be in the wine industry, would they not?  I can't just go reselling wine without first jumping through a lot of hurdles.

Also, I am from the U.S.  I would imagine that shipping wine to me would eat up any profits, and it would require even more hurdles to jump.

If you are going to start with planting the vines, that will take at least 5 years for the yields to mature.  Add a couple more years to produce the right vintage.  This sounds like a long-term investment to me.

Why are you looking for investors on a bitcoin site and not a wine site? 

I'm not trying to knock your idea down, I am just thinking like a potential investor.  I hope your business plan accounts for questions like these.

Good luck!

Current viticulture technology ensures you are up and running within two years. First year gets you approximately half the yield, second about two thirds and then its full production onward. Good questions there, will include them in my pitch.

Why here? Because am a believer. This is disruption on very many levels. This is a unique market which will definitely expand to touch very many areas of life and society. So yeah, I'd really like to eat into the wine industry and market, this ecosystem provides a unique vehicle for that.

Thanks for the mind share.

If a local producer is producing a high quality product, why would he switch to your grapes? By switching what grapes he uses, he would be risking his entire reputation.

How much money would this require to get started? Getting paid in wine (which, no offense, would likely be $5 bucks a bottle) a few years down the line isn't the return the vast majority of people are looking for.

My vines will be supplied by the same producer, plus there's more varieties coming from the same vintner so that is covered.

There seems to be an invisible wall designed to keep out new wineries from hitting the global market, yes 5$ a bottle is alright, but I'm trying for 3$ or less for a 500ml portion. Bottle technology is a-changing, and the ways in which wine can be kept and transported is changing too.

Anyway, back to crunching and verifying these numbers... They truly are hard numbers.

So someone should invest money in this, and a year or two later they might get a bunch of cheap wine (thats not even worth paying the shipping costs for)?

It wouldn't be about getting cheap wine, but getting good wine cheaply. But that is all secondary since it would only work for those with a market, will and skill at selling. The primary market for these grapes will be the local vintner, who pays in cash, so most investors would expect income every year for the period we agree to work with.

But am also negotiating with them to produce and package a private line of wine for this venture, which would provide an extra, if not leveraged, source of income for those that can handle wine sales.

[BTC-Joe]

I have been considering creating a token on counterparty, or NEM, or maybe even creating an Alt, though an alt would increase costs. Considering the investors will be receiving the product as pay/benefit instead of cash, would this still be a security?

What is the best way to go about it outside of startjoin.com, banktothefuture.com or swarm.fund which seems to have apoptosed?

Most of the idiots on this forum have no clue what they're doing or talking about Re: Investing and wouldn't know a good pitch if it hit them in the face. Do what you want to do and the right people will find you if you announce it. Simple as that. There's no right or wrong way.

To most of the respondents so far:

All these posters here want to remain anonymous internet trolls, yet expect anyone they do business with to be examined under a microscope.

It doesn't work that way with bitcoins due to the entire reason for using bitcoins being privacy and anonymity.

Did it occur to any of you twats who think you get to be anonymous but the counterparty has to be "transparent" that some investments work better with a mutual trust and no transparency? Yes, there are plenty such investments that are not illegal but are also not something that should be plastered around publicly.

Do you want opportunities to make ROI or are you going to spend $2K for a minining rig so you can earn $6 per month for one month, and then $3 the next month, and $1.5 the next. lol

If you are not willing to support a business/investment on the same basis that you support bitcoins in the first place - the freedom of being able to transact without government/banking middlemen - then you should convert all your coins to a real currency and get out of here. You don't belong here.

I don't see a single respondent here posting under their REAL NAME, with a real address and phone number attached to their profile. If you don't want to share your deets, you have no right to demand or expect that from anyone else.

Funny, how all this "bitcoin community" shifting from "free and open" to "me me me" in just a few short years. Their attitudes are even worse than that of most investment bankers...it's hilariously pathetic.

[AcoinL.L.C]

I have been considering creating a token on counterparty, or NEM, or maybe even creating an Alt, though an alt would increase costs. Considering the investors will be receiving the product as pay/benefit instead of cash, would this still be a security?

What is the best way to go about it outside of startjoin.com, banktothefuture.com or swarm.fund which seems to have apoptosed?

Most of the idiots on this forum have no clue what they're doing or talking about Re: Investing and wouldn't know a good pitch if it hit them in the face. Do what you want to do and the right people will find you if you announce it. Simple as that. There's no right or wrong way.

To most of the respondents so far:

All these posters here want to remain anonymous internet trolls, yet expect anyone they do business with to be examined under a microscope.

It doesn't work that way with bitcoins due to the entire reason for using bitcoins being privacy and anonymity.

Did it occur to any of you twats who think you get to be anonymous but the counterparty has to be "transparent" that some investments work better with a mutual trust and no transparency? Yes, there are plenty such investments that are not illegal but are also not something that should be plastered around publicly.

Do you want opportunities to make ROI or are you going to spend $2K for a minining rig so you can earn $6 per month for one month, and then $3 the next month, and $1.5 the next. lol

If you are not willing to support a business/investment on the same basis that you support bitcoins in the first place - the freedom of being able to transact without government/banking middlemen - then you should convert all your coins to a real currency and get out of here. You don't belong here.

I don't see a single respondent here posting under their REAL NAME, with a real address and phone number attached to their profile. If you don't want to share your deets, you have no right to demand or expect that from anyone else.

Funny, how all this "bitcoin community" shifting from "free and open" to "me me me" in just a few short years. Their attitudes are even worse than that of most investment bankers...it's hilariously pathetic.

Your logic is extremely flawed. Just because Bitcoin offers a level of anonymity that fiat currencies do not provide, does not mean that transactions with it must, or even should be non-transparent. If you are asking for an investment, it is perfectly reasonable for an investor to ask who you are, if you do not wish to provide them with that information you do not need to... And you won't be getting their investment.

And purchasing a mining rig would have a significantly better return (even though it would be a negative return), because this proposal would have the incredible return of.... losing your entire principle.

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and invest in every shitlisting you can find.   

[BTC-Joe]

Your logic is extremely flawed. Just because Bitcoin offers a level of anonymity that fiat currencies do not provide, does not mean that transactions with it must, or even should be non-transparent. If you are asking for an investment, it is perfectly reasonable for an investor to ask who you are, if you do not wish to provide them with that information you do not need to... And you won't be getting their investment.

And purchasing a mining rig would have a significantly better return (even though it would be a negative return), because this proposal would have the incredible return of.... losing your entire principle.

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and invest in every shitlisting you can find.   

You claim that my logic is flawed, yet you haven't actually identified a flaw. Bitcoin is intended to be anonymous and private and that goes BOTH WAYS.

The fundamental element that makes a currency succeed or fail is a mutual trust among those who use said currency that it has value.

If you want openness and transparency, you have those options with "traditional" investments like stocks and bonds, that come with multi-page prospectus documents. It's exactly because I do invest using bitcoins that I am responding to this thread and calling out the sniveling little idiots who got a few coins and suddenly think they're the central bank.

If an investment opportunity wants to disclose all kinds of info about itself, fine. If not, ALSO FINE. You, the investor, have 2 choices - invest or not. If you don't trust the offer, ignore it. Scams are fairly easy to spot with a bit of common sense.

Those who are demanding that bitcoin businesses and investment opportunities mirror their US dollar counterparts - if that's what you want, then why not just cash out your coin and buy stocks? What's keeping you from doing that?

If bitcoin businesses / investments cannot announce their opportunities without some schmuck immediately jumping in and criticizing them for missing info, a lack of a paper trail or any other nonsense, then the bitcoin has already failed in its "mission". The entire point of bitcoin is to GET AWAY from centralized control from government, bankers and monitoring of transactions...but you are encouraging the very thing that bitcoin was intended to avoid.

My logic is quite clear and sound.