Bitcoin Forum

With the blockchain bloating, I'm concerned about people that created wallets with the Satoshi client to purchase bitcoins and then just made backups of the wallet file. If they don't access the wallet file for many years, how will they load the wallet again if the blockchain swells? Should they be warned against using this client for long term storage?

AFAIK wallet.dat files can be imported to some bitcoin clients.

I don't recommend Bitcoin-qt to new users due to the non instant access.

One would think, if you want long term storage, the Satoshi client would be the best choice (or perhaps Armory, which uses the Satoshi client).  For long term storage you can afford to wait for network sync.

If you want lower security with instant access, one can use a web wallet.  But move your bitcoins off a centralized website as soon as possible...

I recommend the Blockchain wallet to new users. It's much more user friendly, has more features, looks better and is safer to due the option of using two-factor authentication and automated backups. I regard the Satoshi client as something for enthusiasts.

For "long term storage", I'd recommend a paper wallet from bitaddress.org.

I think casual users should avoid the Satoshi client. Gigabytes of blockchain data is not user-friendly, and we've done a lousy job of making it hard for users to lose their keys.

I think the something like the blockchain.info web wallet or Electrum is a good choice for long-term storage; you keep control over your private keys, and are exposed to possible theft risk only when you make a transaction (because a hacked blockchain.info could feed you evil Javascript, or a hacked Electrum download server could feed you an evil executable).  The chances that you will be one of the first customers who make a transaction after they were hacked, before they took their site offline to recover from the hack, are pretty small if you are only making a couple of transactions per month.

I'm also assuming that a casual user isn't storing thousands of bitcoins. I don't think we have great solutions for casual users with thousands of bitcoins yet (I consider paper wallets a fair solution, not a great one).

I feel interested. I will research into this, thank you. Anyone can tell me where I can find the best practice for the paper wallets?  The slow blockchain download process has already cost me 1 BTC fine interest.

I have bought a 200 usd computer with a Atom CPU and 500GB hard drive to serve as a dedicate computer for the armory online client. I will kept the computer running 24/7. Is there anyone else who do the same as me?

Their browser addon eliminates that risk, no?

The problem about the satoshi client is that it is NOT newbie friendly. It forces you to download 6GB or more of blockchain and then have an interface wich is not exactly friendly

yes, but not everyone uses it.

Paper wallets are great because they are an extension of the base classes "TangibleObject" and "PieceOfPaper" (two objects that enjoy high compatibility with human minds) while adding the ability to store bitcoins at a very low cost.

With BIP38 two-factor paper wallets, one can enjoy encrypted paper wallets without having to produce them themselves, but also without any risk that the person who produced them will be able to steal their funds.  This creates a lot of possibilities for secure storage that are also grandma-compatible.  Anyone who can operate a copy machine or a ballpoint pen can confidently secure their own bitcoins against snooping, fire, theft, and even their own mortality, without much difficulty.

If they're good enough for Paris Hilton to store her bitcoins, they're good enough for anybody!

There is still the risk on blockchain.info that you have a keylogger on your computer and your backup file gets stolen. The ultimate solution will be a bitcoin account which is insured by your bank, like normal bank accounts.

Have to agree. I use an offline copy of the brainwallet.org GitHub source and don't have tons of addresses to manage. I suppose if I did, I would want serious software, but not care as much about bloat as grandma, because at that point I would be using more advanced features anyway.

I highly suggest using two factor authentication.  This greatly diminishes the chances of your account being hacked and is available from Blockchain.info (amongst other sites).  As many have suggested, I use the Blockchain wallet for day to day transactions and a paper wallet for "savings."  I have no patience to download the blockchain and keep it constantly synced.

In the Free Bitcoin Guide (http://www.freebitcoinguide.com) I recommend Blockchain.info for casual use and for offline I show people step-by-steo how to download the source for bitaddress.org and brainwallet.org. Then they can create paper wallets and transactions completely offline.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to improve those suggestions for the new users? I want to increase the conversion rate of people interested in bitcoin to those who actually buy some bitcoins and then use them for an actual trade transaction.

Personally I went through all the clients (Bitcoin-qt, Armory, Multibits, etc..) and ended up with Electrum...let someone else worry about the 6GB+ blockchain.

I used to run bitcoind  on my Soekris based router under FreeBSD which simplified packet filtering and such.  For doing cold storage work I used my workstation (also FreeBSD.)  I stopped running both regularly in late 2011 when I stopped doing transactions and just use some coins I put in Instawallet since then.  But I've only found occasion to do half a dozen transactions or so.

Just recently I wanted to pull and test one of my deep storage wallets so I fired up the old build on my workstation and let it sync up (for the better part of a week.)

If I run bitcoind permanently going forward I'll probably use a semi-dedicated headless machine which uses as little power as I can get away with...trying to project as best I can into the near future for sizing purposes.  Else I'll bring up an instance in one of the clouds for that duty, but I'll not put any significant value in a client running in a cloud.

Once I confirm that I can re-claim my deep storage, I'll probably archive my binaries and data, then try to build a newer version of bitcoind which will hopefully perform a little more efficiently.  Then ensure that my old wallets work with it.

If your wallet hasn't changed since you saved it, you don't need to wait for the block chain to sync. You can just spend the coins immediately. So your scenario isn't really an issue.

With an unencrypted wallet, your coins can be extracted with a hex editor.  It is super easy, and no big deal if bitcoind can't read it.

If you encrypt the wallet, then it becomes a bit harder, but not by much (assuming you know the paraphrase)

Thanks for the note.  I actually had not thought much about it, but it makes pretty good sense that things could potentially work this way.   Without knowing the code well, it seems conceivable that the client would have trouble performing some operations unless it felt it was up-to-date enough (blockchain-wise) to validate one thing or another or optimize aggregation or whatever.  All of my hands-on work to date has been under an up-to-date bitcoind.



I've never used the native wallet encryption of Bitcoin, but of course I use my own.  My encrypted wallets are in the public domain, but the passphrases to them are in one of my safe deposit boxes.  That aside...

I presume that by 'coins' you mean the secret key can be extracted.  I don't doubt it, and I expect that it would be reasonably easy (though perhaps tedious) to figure out which key in the wallet had value associated.

What I've not run across are surgery techniques required to make use of the secret key in order to re-claim value in a safe manner.  That is, how practical would it be to graft the key into the wallet files (or whatever) of various alternate clients and so on.  Perhaps they tend to have some sort of 'import' feature these days?  Last time I actually worked with Bitcoin it was unpleasant enough to manipulate wallet files that I never bothered to make use of vanity addresses.

Actually, what would be really cool would be if one of the on-line wallets had a key import feature.  Especially Instawallet which I prefer due to it's privacy and pedigree.  I would trust an on-line wallet with significant value because it would be transient.  And it would be quite useful to not need to install any software on my computer (or the computer I happened to be using) at all.

Anyone who isn't willing to to spend a couple of days trying to work out what the hell this bitcoin thing is and wonder why it's taking so long to download the blockchain, really shouldn't touch bitcoin with a barge pole.
The great advantage of the Satoshi client is that it forces the user to think (about their money).
The Satoshi client is the rite of passage - after that you know you are in control (however, ultimately, you choose to use bitcoin)

The only casual users of Bitcoin are people using SR, who have no interest in bitcoin and just want their stash.

Dancupid,
That's rediculous.  You sound like a former computer geek who would argue that if someone didn't understand DOS there is no reason anyone should be using a computer.  The goal is to get everyone to embrace bitcoin.  If you expect everyone to spend a couple days to understand the block chain and how bitcoin works you're an idiot.  You don't need to understand the physics of an internal combustion engine to drive a car, nor should you have to.  The same is true of bitcoin.  That is unless you want bitcoin to remain a fringe economy so that you can sit in your lonely corner telling everyone how superior it is if they would only spend a week to learn why.  Idiot. 

What is different from understanding how banks work? You don't walk into a bank and just leave your money with them, you learn about the interest, about different accounts, Bitcoins should be no different. Bitcoin client should be at least tried by the new users, it is a full node, so it helps the community and teaches them a lot about how bitcoin works. I think sir you have no clue what your talking about.

People like you why Murica's gov shits all over its people.  "How can I be expected to understand the basics of what I'm doing?  That's too much thinking!  Leave that to someone else to figure out!  How dare you expect ME to THINK for MYSELF!  Idiot."

99.9 percent of the people out there are not going to want to, or care to know how bitcoin works.  Whether you think that is smart or not doesn't change that fact. If you want bitcoin to be adopted on a large scale, it is the average everyday person that we need to convince in adopting it.  That will not happen if you expect them to understand the minute details of cryptography and peer to peer networks.  The average person doesn't care.  They just want it to work.  The average person has no idea how banking works and they don't care.  The average person won't know how bitcoin works and they won't care.

I disagree most people know how a bank works especially in today's day of age. I think when your dealing with money people want to know how it works, when it is an email they don't care.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  The entire fee based banking model is dependent upon the assumption that most people don't know how banks work. 

Is sheer number of individuals "adopting" the big main essential metric?

What about sheer number of dollars adopting it, or sheer acres of prime real-estate adopting it, or some "value" type metric?

It is said that receiving a dollar each from a thousand people is better than receiving a thousand dollars from one person.

But is a dollar each from a thousand people better than two thousand dollars from one person? Ten thousand? A hundred thousand?

Are the 1% utterly valueless without the 99%? Are the 99% actually really the real value, so the 1% are maybe even just leeches preying upon them so that the whole system would be better off with just the 99%, none of the 1%-ers?

Isn't the exchange rate driven more by how much value is transacted than how many peasants hold a token penny from a faucet?

-MarkM-

Blockchain.info wallet is an, arguably, exemplary example of a good, low-learning curve way to interface with Bitcoin.


Yes, such central web sites have their risks.  I'm well aware.  I've been a victim, in the Bitcoin space, on web sites where the common exploits were used for theft.


This is why I hold so much hope for HW key privacy devices like Trezor.


Trezor + Blind, ie client encryption, web wallet service = golden.  If Trezor gets to a point where it can be used for generic message signing then a BIG FU to 2FA and all the other security systems with their horrible Web client-side and MITM exploits.


Bitcoin - trust no one.  Not a web site.  Not your computer (online).

Redeeming a private key is the same as redeeming a Casascius Coin.

Simple method:
1. Create a throwaway wallet at Blockchain.info
2. Import private key(s)
3. Send your funds

Takes less than 5 minutes in most cases.

Sitting there waiting a week for the blockchain to download somehow qualifies you to use Bitcoins?  How ridiculous.

Maybe they should add a sound recorder to the Satoshi client so that you have to play a special tune on a hand whittled flute before it will let you use bitcoin, and could even utilize people's webcams to ensure they are wearing Vulcan fake ears while doing it.

My parents don't understand that when they accidentally minimize a window that it's not really 'vanished' - it's still there minimized at the bottom of the screen - but they phone me and I have to use logmein just to maximize the window again. Should they start using bitcoins? Are they qualified?
People do need to be qualified to use bitcoin - becasue if they aren't they will quickly discover that they have lost everything.
It's not rocket science, but it isn't trivial either.
They need to understand that the security of their bitcoins is 100% their responsibility.
Do you really believe that someone who cannot use the basic functionality of the Satoshi client should be holding bitcoins?
People who use the Satoshi client will be forced to ask all the right questions ("Do I need to make a wallet backup after every transaction?", "Why aren't the bitcoins I bought showing up in my wallet?" etc etc).
If you can't answer (or find an answer to) these basic questions you really shouldn't be using bitcoin. You don't need to be able to examine and understand the source code or understand cryptography, but you do need to understand the basic principles of how it works.

If you want to drive a car you at least need to pass a driving test. You need to understand the dangers.

Thanks for the pointer Mike.  I'd not really payed much attention to blockchain.info's wallet.  Seems pretty good.  I like instawallet slightly better for certain things due to password convenience, but everything has it's strengths and weaknesses, and blockchain.info is certainly much more feature rich.

The ability to import wallets is nice, but it's to bad that drag-n-drop is the only method supported.  I'd have to dick around with my preferred windows manager on my primary workstation to support it.  Most drag-n-drop UI's also have a select file option, but not blockchain.info that I can see.  Funny because I would have anticipated a general correlation between those with interest in Bitcoin and those running fringe (and often more secure) operating systems.

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In other news, firing up my ancient client worked OK for receiving some BTC from my instawallet, but did not seem to send very appropriately (judging from blockexplorer.)  Probably associated with transaction fee settings, or who knows.  I'll wait a few days to see if the missing value materializes.

Edit: Update:  I was reading blockexplorer wrong and my send transaction off of the old client did work as expected.