Should casual users avoid the Satoshi client?

[dancupid]

Anyone who isn't willing to to spend a couple of days trying to work out what the hell this bitcoin thing is and wonder why it's taking so long to download the blockchain, really shouldn't touch bitcoin with a barge pole.
The great advantage of the Satoshi client is that it forces the user to think (about their money).
The Satoshi client is the rite of passage - after that you know you are in control (however, ultimately, you choose to use bitcoin)

The only casual users of Bitcoin are people using SR, who have no interest in bitcoin and just want their stash.

[nikkisnowe]

Dancupid,
That's rediculous.  You sound like a former computer geek who would argue that if someone didn't understand DOS there is no reason anyone should be using a computer.  The goal is to get everyone to embrace bitcoin.  If you expect everyone to spend a couple days to understand the block chain and how bitcoin works you're an idiot.  You don't need to understand the physics of an internal combustion engine to drive a car, nor should you have to.  The same is true of bitcoin.  That is unless you want bitcoin to remain a fringe economy so that you can sit in your lonely corner telling everyone how superior it is if they would only spend a week to learn why.  Idiot. 

[gweedo]

Dancupid,
That's rediculous.  You sound like a former computer geek who would argue that if someone didn't understand DOS there is no reason anyone should be using a computer.  The goal is to get everyone to embrace bitcoin.  If you expect everyone to spend a couple days to understand the block chain and how bitcoin works you're an idiot.  You don't need to understand the physics of an internal combustion engine to drive a car, nor should you have to.  The same is true of bitcoin.  That is unless you want bitcoin to remain a fringe economy so that you can sit in your lonely corner telling everyone how superior it is if they would only spend a week to learn why.  Idiot. 

What is different from understanding how banks work? You don't walk into a bank and just leave your money with them, you learn about the interest, about different accounts, Bitcoins should be no different. Bitcoin client should be at least tried by the new users, it is a full node, so it helps the community and teaches them a lot about how bitcoin works. I think sir you have no clue what your talking about.

[Mike Christ]

Dancupid,
That's rediculous.  You sound like a former computer geek who would argue that if someone didn't understand DOS there is no reason anyone should be using a computer.  The goal is to get everyone to embrace bitcoin.  If you expect everyone to spend a couple days to understand the block chain and how bitcoin works you're an idiot.  You don't need to understand the physics of an internal combustion engine to drive a car, nor should you have to.  The same is true of bitcoin.  That is unless you want bitcoin to remain a fringe economy so that you can sit in your lonely corner telling everyone how superior it is if they would only spend a week to learn why.  Idiot. 

People like you why Murica's gov shits all over its people.  "How can I be expected to understand the basics of what I'm doing?  That's too much thinking!  Leave that to someone else to figure out!  How dare you expect ME to THINK for MYSELF!  Idiot."

[nikkisnowe]

99.9 percent of the people out there are not going to want to, or care to know how bitcoin works.  Whether you think that is smart or not doesn't change that fact. If you want bitcoin to be adopted on a large scale, it is the average everyday person that we need to convince in adopting it.  That will not happen if you expect them to understand the minute details of cryptography and peer to peer networks.  The average person doesn't care.  They just want it to work.  The average person has no idea how banking works and they don't care.  The average person won't know how bitcoin works and they won't care.

[gweedo]

99.9 percent of the people out there are not going to want to, or care to know how bitcoin works.  Whether you think that is smart or not doesn't change that fact. If you want bitcoin to be adopted on a large scale, it is the average everyday person that we need to convince in adopting it.  That will not happen if you expect them to understand the minute details of cryptography and peer to peer networks.  The average person doesn't care.  They just want it to work.  The average person has no idea how banking works and they don't care.  The average person won't know how bitcoin works and they won't care.

I disagree most people know how a bank works especially in today's day of age. I think when your dealing with money people want to know how it works, when it is an email they don't care.

[nikkisnowe]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  The entire fee based banking model is dependent upon the assumption that most people don't know how banks work. 

[markm]

Is sheer number of individuals "adopting" the big main essential metric?

What about sheer number of dollars adopting it, or sheer acres of prime real-estate adopting it, or some "value" type metric?

It is said that receiving a dollar each from a thousand people is better than receiving a thousand dollars from one person.

But is a dollar each from a thousand people better than two thousand dollars from one person? Ten thousand? A hundred thousand?

Are the 1% utterly valueless without the 99%? Are the 99% actually really the real value, so the 1% are maybe even just leeches preying upon them so that the whole system would be better off with just the 99%, none of the 1%-ers?

Isn't the exchange rate driven more by how much value is transacted than how many peasants hold a token penny from a faucet?

-MarkM-

[meowmeowbrowncow]

Blockchain.info wallet is an, arguably, exemplary example of a good, low-learning curve way to interface with Bitcoin.


Yes, such central web sites have their risks.  I'm well aware.  I've been a victim, in the Bitcoin space, on web sites where the common exploits were used for theft.


This is why I hold so much hope for HW key privacy devices like Trezor.


Trezor + Blind, ie client encryption, web wallet service = golden.  If Trezor gets to a point where it can be used for generic message signing then a BIG FU to 2FA and all the other security systems with their horrible Web client-side and MITM exploits.


Bitcoin - trust no one.  Not a web site.  Not your computer (online).

[casascius]

What I've not run across are surgery techniques required to make use of the secret key in order to re-claim value in a safe manner. 

Redeeming a private key is the same as redeeming a Casascius Coin.

Simple method:
1. Create a throwaway wallet at Blockchain.info
2. Import private key(s)
3. Send your funds

Takes less than 5 minutes in most cases.

[dave111223]

Anyone who isn't willing to to spend a couple of days trying to work out what the hell this bitcoin thing is and wonder why it's taking so long to download the blockchain, really shouldn't touch bitcoin with a barge pole.
The great advantage of the Satoshi client is that it forces the user to think (about their money).
The Satoshi client is the rite of passage - after that you know you are in control (however, ultimately, you choose to use bitcoin)

The only casual users of Bitcoin are people using SR, who have no interest in bitcoin and just want their stash.

Sitting there waiting a week for the blockchain to download somehow qualifies you to use Bitcoins?  How ridiculous.

Maybe they should add a sound recorder to the Satoshi client so that you have to play a special tune on a hand whittled flute before it will let you use bitcoin, and could even utilize people's webcams to ensure they are wearing Vulcan fake ears while doing it.

[dancupid]

Anyone who isn't willing to to spend a couple of days trying to work out what the hell this bitcoin thing is and wonder why it's taking so long to download the blockchain, really shouldn't touch bitcoin with a barge pole.
The great advantage of the Satoshi client is that it forces the user to think (about their money).
The Satoshi client is the rite of passage - after that you know you are in control (however, ultimately, you choose to use bitcoin)

The only casual users of Bitcoin are people using SR, who have no interest in bitcoin and just want their stash.

Sitting there waiting a week for the blockchain to download somehow qualifies you to use Bitcoins?  How ridiculous.

Maybe they should add a sound recorder to the Satoshi client so that you have to play a special tune on a hand whittled flute before it will let you use bitcoin, and could even utilize people's webcams to ensure they are wearing Vulcan fake ears while doing it.

My parents don't understand that when they accidentally minimize a window that it's not really 'vanished' - it's still there minimized at the bottom of the screen - but they phone me and I have to use logmein just to maximize the window again. Should they start using bitcoins? Are they qualified?
People do need to be qualified to use bitcoin - becasue if they aren't they will quickly discover that they have lost everything.
It's not rocket science, but it isn't trivial either.
They need to understand that the security of their bitcoins is 100% their responsibility.
Do you really believe that someone who cannot use the basic functionality of the Satoshi client should be holding bitcoins?
People who use the Satoshi client will be forced to ask all the right questions ("Do I need to make a wallet backup after every transaction?", "Why aren't the bitcoins I bought showing up in my wallet?" etc etc).
If you can't answer (or find an answer to) these basic questions you really shouldn't be using bitcoin. You don't need to be able to examine and understand the source code or understand cryptography, but you do need to understand the basic principles of how it works.

[dancupid]

Dancupid,
That's rediculous.  You sound like a former computer geek who would argue that if someone didn't understand DOS there is no reason anyone should be using a computer.  The goal is to get everyone to embrace bitcoin.  If you expect everyone to spend a couple days to understand the block chain and how bitcoin works you're an idiot.  You don't need to understand the physics of an internal combustion engine to drive a car, nor should you have to.  The same is true of bitcoin.  That is unless you want bitcoin to remain a fringe economy so that you can sit in your lonely corner telling everyone how superior it is if they would only spend a week to learn why.  Idiot. 

If you want to drive a car you at least need to pass a driving test. You need to understand the dangers.

[tvbcof]

What I've not run across are surgery techniques required to make use of the secret key in order to re-claim value in a safe manner.

Redeeming a private key is the same as redeeming a Casascius Coin.

Simple method:
1. Create a throwaway wallet at Blockchain.info
2. Import private key(s)
3. Send your funds

Takes less than 5 minutes in most cases.

Thanks for the pointer Mike.  I'd not really payed much attention to blockchain.info's wallet.  Seems pretty good.  I like instawallet slightly better for certain things due to password convenience, but everything has it's strengths and weaknesses, and blockchain.info is certainly much more feature rich.

The ability to import wallets is nice, but it's to bad that drag-n-drop is the only method supported.  I'd have to dick around with my preferred windows manager on my primary workstation to support it.  Most drag-n-drop UI's also have a select file option, but not blockchain.info that I can see.  Funny because I would have anticipated a general correlation between those with interest in Bitcoin and those running fringe (and often more secure) operating systems.

---

In other news, firing up my ancient client worked OK for receiving some BTC from my instawallet, but did not seem to send very appropriately (judging from blockexplorer.)  Probably associated with transaction fee settings, or who knows.  I'll wait a few days to see if the missing value materializes.

Edit: Update:  I was reading blockexplorer wrong and my send transaction off of the old client did work as expected.