Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 12:15:45 PM


Title: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 12:15:45 PM
Bitcoin 0.8 contains a new feature (Bloom filtering (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0037)) that allows lightweight clients such as the Android app and MultiBit to sync their block chains dramatically faster. It works by allowing them to only download the parts of the chain they need rather than all of it, but in a way that still preserves security and privacy. Testers have reported being able to sync hundreds of blocks per second. It gets pure P2P apps much closer to the performance level of  apps like Electrum or BitcoinSpinner, which rely heavily on custom servers.

The new feature is supported by the current release candidates of MultiBit/Android wallet, but for it to work, they need to be able to find and connect to a Bitcoin 0.8 node. The latest versions of these apps haven't been released yet because we're waiting for more nodes to upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8. So ...

Please upgrade your nodes to Bitcoin 0.8 and help out Android users!


Even if you don't feel you need Bitcoin 0.8 for yourself, upgrading still helps everyone else!

Thanks.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: ciphermonk on February 20, 2013, 12:46:34 PM
Sir! Yes Sir! Right away Sir!  ;D

Edit: Great work by the way!

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: jim618 on February 20, 2013, 03:07:25 PM
Another benefit of bloom filters to SPV users is that it dramatically
reduces your bandwidth usage. For users on 3G or capped usage
it really makes a difference.

On a rainy day when my signal drops to 2G (50 KB/s down) I still get 60 blocks a second.

Please upgrade to bitcoind v0.8

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: ninjaboon on February 20, 2013, 03:16:36 PM
powering up my server and updating now.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: TooCasual on February 20, 2013, 04:53:21 PM
Aye Aye Cap'n!  Thar she blows!

:) TC

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: teukon on February 20, 2013, 05:46:54 PM
I backed up my wallet, shutdown my node (without detaching the database), installed the pre-built Linux binary, and fired it up.

Unlike previous upgrades, the node automatically started "Reindexing blocks on disk".  I assume this is to be expected.  Will my node be helpful to others before the scan is complete?  It looks like the scan will take a long time to complete.

My thanks to everyone that made this new release possible.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Rothgar on February 20, 2013, 05:54:52 PM
Re-indexing is normal. There was an upgrade of the database used to store the blockchain.  I'm sure your node will be more helpful when the scan is complete.  I don't know about during the scan.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: waspoza on February 20, 2013, 05:58:25 PM
Done on my server and done on my home computer. Good job guys btw. Cheers! :)

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: teukon on February 20, 2013, 06:43:08 PM
Quote from: Rothgar on February 20, 2013, 05:54:52 PM
Re-indexing is normal. There was an upgrade of the database used to store the blockchain.  I'm sure your node will be more helpful when the scan is complete.  I don't know about during the scan.

Ok.  I'll just leave it running overnight and see where it gets to.  I may be late to the party but a 24/7 node based in Asia should be worth something.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: grue on February 20, 2013, 06:46:22 PM
0.8 adoption:
http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: paraipan on February 20, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: TooCasual on February 20, 2013, 04:53:21 PM
Aye Aye Cap'n!  Thar she blows!

:) TC

+1 done

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Timo Y on February 20, 2013, 07:09:33 PM
Am I still helping if I run Bitcoin 0.8 behind Tor (not as a hidden service)?


Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Jaw3bmasters on February 20, 2013, 07:17:30 PM
I'm in an area with much mobile devices, updating.......

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 07:37:54 PM
is this download signed?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 08:14:42 PM
Bitcoin 0.8 is signed by the Foundation.

If you run a node via Tor then nobody can connect to it, so no, it doesn't help. We need nodes on the regular internet for this, sorry.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 08:14:42 PM
Bitcoin 0.8 is signed by the Foundation.

If you run a node via Tor then nobody can connect to it, so no, it doesn't help. We need nodes on the regular internet for this, sorry.

then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: niko on February 20, 2013, 08:23:40 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 08:14:42 PM
Bitcoin 0.8 is signed by the Foundation.

If you run a node via Tor then nobody can connect to it, so no, it doesn't help. We need nodes on the regular internet for this, sorry.

then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.
It is not signed via PGP. The signature is CA based.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: grue on February 20, 2013, 08:36:32 PM
Quote from: Timo Y on February 20, 2013, 07:09:33 PM
Am I still helping if I run Bitcoin 0.8 behind Tor (not as a hidden service)?


if you have ports forwarded (somehow), then yes.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:37:52 PM
Quote from: niko on February 20, 2013, 08:23:40 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 08:14:42 PM
Bitcoin 0.8 is signed by the Foundation.

If you run a node via Tor then nobody can connect to it, so no, it doesn't help. We need nodes on the regular internet for this, sorry.

then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.
It is not signed via PGP. The signature is CA based.

so how does that work?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 08:49:51 PM
Is there a node that you control or make use of to find 0.8 clients quicker which we can add via "addnode" so you also see our nodes? Or do you just hope that your client will after some days just randomly stumble upon a 0.8 full node because there are so many?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: niko on February 20, 2013, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:37:52 PM
Quote from: niko on February 20, 2013, 08:23:40 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 08:14:42 PM
Bitcoin 0.8 is signed by the Foundation.

If you run a node via Tor then nobody can connect to it, so no, it doesn't help. We need nodes on the regular internet for this, sorry.

then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.
It is not signed via PGP. The signature is CA based.

so how does that work?
Like any signed code - but I can only speak about Windows. When you try executing the code, the UAC prompt will provide the information about the signature, and offer details where you can check the certificate and certification path. Alternatively, right-click on downloaded file and check signature/certificate from the Properties dialogue.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: jim618 on February 20, 2013, 09:45:38 PM
Quote from: Sukrim on February 20, 2013, 08:49:51 PM
Is there a node that you control or make use of to find 0.8 clients quicker which we can add via "addnode" so you also see our nodes? Or do you just hope that your client will after some days just randomly stumble upon a 0.8 full node because there are so many?


Bitcoinj uses DNS discovery - it initially makes connections to 4 nodes at random.

It will then look at the Satoshi version running, the block height the peer says it is at and the peer's ping time to decide which is the best to download from. (The other peers are then used to verify things but it wants the 'best' for downloading).

Once V0.8.0 gets to about 15% of nodes then with 4 connections the chance of getting at least one V0.8.0 at random is:

1 - (1 - 0.15)^4 = 48%

I think we are planning to wait for 10% of nodes at V0.8.0 before releasing.
(If there are two few V0.8.0 nodes they might become too popular and get overloaded by SPV clients wanting to connect to them).

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: alexeft on February 20, 2013, 10:16:44 PM
I got two nodes running on 0.8!
Let's help this thing grow bigger!!!

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Pieter Wuille on February 20, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/)SHA256SUMS.asc



Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 20, 2013, 11:15:01 PM
I just ran the PeerMonitor app and found a bunch of 0.8 nodes that were in the middle of syncing the chain. That's great! Let's keep it up.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: DannyHamilton on February 20, 2013, 11:38:45 PM
As a benchmark for those who are interested, I installed 0.8.0 on a 5 year old 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro with 4 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM and a NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT 256 MB graphics processor running Mac OS X Lion 10.7.5.  The total synchronization time starting on 2013-02-19 was 22 hours, and the total disk space used is 6.4 GB

Disk usage:

Code:
$ pwd; du -h
~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin
 31M    ./blocks/index
6.2G    ./blocks
193M    ./chainstate
10.0M   ./database
6.4G    .

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: camolist on February 21, 2013, 01:45:56 PM
just brought up a node on a server in the datacenter.

50mbit/sec dedicated that is very very underused

addnode=69.162.139.23

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: HorseRider on February 21, 2013, 01:52:09 PM
And please make a Ubuntu PPA please......

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: runeks on February 21, 2013, 07:43:47 PM
Is there an armhf Debian package available for Bitcoin 0.8 (bitcoind)? I wouldn't mind running it on my Raspberry Pi around the clock.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 08:08:24 PM
Quote from: HorseRider on February 21, 2013, 01:52:09 PM
And please make a Ubuntu PPA please......

+1

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 08:16:00 PM
Quote from: Pieter Wuille on February 20, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/)SHA256SUMS.asc




i still don't see the BF's pgp key.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: niko on February 21, 2013, 08:35:56 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 08:16:00 PM
Quote from: Pieter Wuille on February 20, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/)SHA256SUMS.asc




i still don't see the BF's pgp key.
Were you able to check the CA signature chain? It's only a few clicks away.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: niko on February 21, 2013, 08:35:56 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 08:16:00 PM
Quote from: Pieter Wuille on February 20, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/)SHA256SUMS.asc




i still don't see the BF's pgp key.
Were you able to check the CA signature chain? It's only a few clicks away.

i did check the CA certificate in properties like you said.  it's just i'm more comfortable checking signature files BEFORE i install the client.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: niko on February 21, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: niko on February 21, 2013, 08:35:56 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 08:16:00 PM
Quote from: Pieter Wuille on February 20, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/)SHA256SUMS.asc




i still don't see the BF's pgp key.
Were you able to check the CA signature chain? It's only a few clicks away.

i did check the CA certificate in properties like you said.  it's just i'm more comfortable checking signature files BEFORE i install the client.
You should check before you run the installer, of course. An example at hand:
https://i.imgur.com/gbsJHnF.png

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 11:06:40 PM
Quote from: niko on February 21, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: niko on February 21, 2013, 08:35:56 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 08:16:00 PM
Quote from: Pieter Wuille on February 20, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 20, 2013, 08:16:47 PM
then they ought to put their PGP signature on the bitcoin.org download site.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/)SHA256SUMS.asc




i still don't see the BF's pgp key.
Were you able to check the CA signature chain? It's only a few clicks away.

i did check the CA certificate in properties like you said.  it's just i'm more comfortable checking signature files BEFORE i install the client.
You should check before you run the installer, of course. An example at hand:
https://i.imgur.com/gbsJHnF.png


so that's good enough?  never checked this way before.

thanks.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: grue on February 22, 2013, 12:49:42 AM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 11:06:40 PM
so that's good enough?  never checked this way before.

thanks.
you only need to check if the signature is OK (by clicking "details"). the rest is not needed.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Vernon715 on February 22, 2013, 01:07:33 AM
Quote from: runeks on February 21, 2013, 07:43:47 PM
Is there an armhf Debian package available for Bitcoin 0.8 (bitcoind)? I wouldn't mind running it on my Raspberry Pi around the clock.

+1

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: niko on February 22, 2013, 01:25:05 AM
Quote from: grue on February 22, 2013, 12:49:42 AM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 11:06:40 PM
so that's good enough?  never checked this way before.

thanks.
you only need to check if the signature is OK (by clicking "details"). the rest is not needed.
Yes. I wanted to illustrate the depth of information available. Anyone handling significant amounts of coins or sensitive data should in fact check the certification path, and look for suspicious changes in signing authorities. Case in point:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/06/flame-malware-was-signed-by-rogue-microsoft-certificate/

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 22, 2013, 03:33:04 AM
Quote from: niko on February 22, 2013, 01:25:05 AM
Quote from: grue on February 22, 2013, 12:49:42 AM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 11:06:40 PM
so that's good enough?  never checked this way before.

thanks.
you only need to check if the signature is OK (by clicking "details"). the rest is not needed.
Yes. I wanted to illustrate the depth of information available. Anyone handling significant amounts of coins or sensitive data should in fact check the certification path, and look for suspicious changes in signing authorities. Case in point:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/06/flame-malware-was-signed-by-rogue-microsoft-certificate/


i'm a little skeptical about signing certifs after that incident last year where Diginotar got compromised.

i mean no one around here has told us how to verify that the CA you pointed out is genuine.  i see a few words that say Bitcoin Foundation in the detail and COMODO and someone's email address but how am i supposed to know that this detail is genuine?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: niko on February 22, 2013, 06:32:36 AM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 22, 2013, 03:33:04 AM
Quote from: niko on February 22, 2013, 01:25:05 AM
Quote from: grue on February 22, 2013, 12:49:42 AM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 11:06:40 PM
so that's good enough?  never checked this way before.

thanks.
you only need to check if the signature is OK (by clicking "details"). the rest is not needed.
Yes. I wanted to illustrate the depth of information available. Anyone handling significant amounts of coins or sensitive data should in fact check the certification path, and look for suspicious changes in signing authorities. Case in point:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/06/flame-malware-was-signed-by-rogue-microsoft-certificate/


i'm a little skeptical about signing certifs after that incident last year where Diginotar got compromised.

i mean no one around here has told us how to verify that the CA you pointed out is genuine.  i see a few words that say Bitcoin Foundation in the detail and COMODO and someone's email address but how am i supposed to know that this detail is genuine?

My unqualified guess is that if you are concerned you should contact the site owner and request (via phone, PGP-authenticated communication channel, or in person) to verify the serial numbers and/or thumbprints for all the certificates in the certification chain. A pain in the ass that I never inflicted upon myself.

For the record, windows installer 0.8.0 for me shows certification path

USERTrust>Comodo Code Signing CA 2>The Bitcoin Foundation, Inc. (serial no. 00 95 58 31 df b0 68 e1 11 ee 55 2a b6 2c f7 33 62, sha1 digest 8c 94 64 e3 b5 b0 41 89 5b 89 b0 57 cc 74 b9 44 e5 b2 92 66)

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: jim618 on February 22, 2013, 08:47:02 PM
Things to do this weekend:

+ meet up with your friends and have a beer/ coffee together
+ check your credit card statements and avoid those sneaky late payment fees the banks slap on you
+ phone up your mum and see if everything is all right with her
+ upgrade your bitcoind to v0.8.0

:-)

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: teukon on February 23, 2013, 12:45:35 AM
Finished, phew!

Adding to DannyHamilton's datapoint:

Processing equiptment: One 32-bit, single core, 900 MHz CPU (bitcoin-qt limited to 50% to avoid overheating, my CPU fan is broken).
Re-indexing time: 55 hours

This should be no real problem for even somewhat dated desktops and laptops but I'd advise those attempting the upgrade on ancient/exotic hardware to prepare themselves.  I've been writing down transactions I wanted to make while waiting for my client to sync.

Anyway, I now have one almost-24-7 node in Asia with a reasonable connection (at least 10 Mb/s upload).  Hope it helps!

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Cryptoman on February 23, 2013, 07:52:03 AM
So I see that upgrading to 0.8 and reindexing has created a new set of blockchain files under the "blocks" subdirectory.  However, everything seems to occupy about a gigabyte total now:

Code:
11M     ./database
166M    ./chainstate
31M     ./blocks/index
790M    ./blocks

Is this correct, and is it safe to delete the block0001.dat-block0003.dat and blkindex.dat files in the parent directory?



Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 23, 2013, 10:28:31 AM
This is a common point of confusion. The old files can be deleted. They actually aren't using up the space that they may appear to be as they are hard links, but a lot of Windows apps don't know how to represent the disk space usage of hard linked files correctly. I bet if you look at the disk free measurement on the drives properties page it doesn't actually change after removing the old files.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Jason on February 23, 2013, 05:43:15 PM
Quote from: teukon on February 23, 2013, 12:45:35 AM
Processing equiptment: One 32-bit, single core, 900 MHz CPU (bitcoin-qt limited to 50% to avoid overheating, my CPU fan is broken).
Re-indexing time: 55 hours

Doesn't take long on modern hardware:

i5-3570 overclocked at 4.5 GHz.
Re-indexing time:  47 minutes.

Nice to see it was CPU-bound on all 4 cores for a good portion of that time.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 23, 2013, 06:00:25 PM
Quote from: niko on February 22, 2013, 06:32:36 AM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 22, 2013, 03:33:04 AM
Quote from: niko on February 22, 2013, 01:25:05 AM
Quote from: grue on February 22, 2013, 12:49:42 AM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 21, 2013, 11:06:40 PM
so that's good enough?  never checked this way before.

thanks.
you only need to check if the signature is OK (by clicking "details"). the rest is not needed.
Yes. I wanted to illustrate the depth of information available. Anyone handling significant amounts of coins or sensitive data should in fact check the certification path, and look for suspicious changes in signing authorities. Case in point:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/06/flame-malware-was-signed-by-rogue-microsoft-certificate/


i'm a little skeptical about signing certifs after that incident last year where Diginotar got compromised.

i mean no one around here has told us how to verify that the CA you pointed out is genuine.  i see a few words that say Bitcoin Foundation in the detail and COMODO and someone's email address but how am i supposed to know that this detail is genuine?

My unqualified guess is that if you are concerned you should contact the site owner and request (via phone, PGP-authenticated communication channel, or in person) to verify the serial numbers and/or thumbprints for all the certificates in the certification chain. A pain in the ass that I never inflicted upon myself.

For the record, windows installer 0.8.0 for me shows certification path

USERTrust>Comodo Code Signing CA 2>The Bitcoin Foundation, Inc. (serial no. 00 95 58 31 df b0 68 e1 11 ee 55 2a b6 2c f7 33 62, sha1 digest 8c 94 64 e3 b5 b0 41 89 5b 89 b0 57 cc 74 b9 44 e5 b2 92 66)


fyi, i show exactly the same info.  :)

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: pulsecat on February 23, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Does anybody know will bitcoin-qt package in Ubuntu get updated?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: giszmo on February 23, 2013, 07:37:02 PM
Quote from: pulsecat on February 23, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Does anybody know will bitcoin-qt package in Ubuntu get updated?

… I'm confused about that, too. Shouldn't the ppa be updated long ago?

(I don't agree with Mike Hearn's push to upgrade to 0.8 with the reasoning that new incoming crowd might be disappointed. There is no reason to rush specifically this release. It is not a bug fix release that would deserve this pushing and as we all know, new software might have glitches, so the exposure to such glitches should be kept low. Better have people switch moderately fast, most adventurous to most regular user than to migrate faster this time than else. It will make a difference of days when Spinner and Co may use these bloom nodes anyway.)

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 23, 2013, 08:25:39 PM
Even with promotion in the forums, it's going to take a long time before even half the network runs 0.8, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Also, it's been in testing for quite a long time by now already. There isn't much reason to hold back.

It looks like we might hit 10% in a few days. So probably Andreas will release the Android app upgrade soon.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 23, 2013, 11:24:00 PM
Quote from: pulsecat on February 23, 2013, 07:04:22 PM
Does anybody know will bitcoin-qt package in Ubuntu get updated?

specifically the PPA

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Cryptoman on February 24, 2013, 06:26:35 AM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 23, 2013, 10:28:31 AM
This is a common point of confusion. The old files can be deleted. They actually aren't using up the space that they may appear to be as they are hard links, but a lot of Windows apps don't know how to represent the disk space usage of hard linked files correctly. I bet if you look at the disk free measurement on the drives properties page it doesn't actually change after removing the old files.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Code:
~/.bitcoin> du -h
168M    ./chainstate
11M     ./database
288K    ./encrypted_wallet_backup
31M     ./blocks/index
883M    ./blocks
8.2G    .
~/.bitcoin> ls -l blk*
-rw-r--r--  2 nobody users 2097220817 Jul 29  2012 blk0001.dat
-rw-r--r--  2 nobody users 2097158452 Dec  6 01:24 blk0002.dat
-rw-r--r--  2 nobody users 1499978472 Feb 16 00:43 blk0003.dat
-rw-r--r--  1 nobody users 1818804224 Feb 16 00:43 blkindex.dat
~/.bitcoin> rm blk*
~/.bitcoin> du -h
168M    ./chainstate
11M     ./database
288K    ./encrypted_wallet_backup
31M     ./blocks/index
6.2G    ./blocks
6.5G    .
~/.bitcoin>

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: jim618 on February 24, 2013, 10:53:45 AM
We are now over 10% of the network updated to v0.8.0 !

I've put the version of MultiBit with bloom filter support on the multibit.org website for general release:
https://multibit.org/releases.html (https://multibit.org/releases.html)

Thanks everyone for upgrading the network so swiftly.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 24, 2013, 01:49:35 PM
Andreas rolled out the Bitcoin Wallet upgrade this morning. Thanks everyone!

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 24, 2013, 01:49:35 PM
Andreas rolled out the Bitcoin Wallet upgrade this morning. Thanks everyone!

That's good news. Just installed it for the first time in one year and I must say, seeing "Synchronization stalled, 18 months behind" is frustrating not only for noobs. Hope that gets better. The peer monitor shows me one 0.8 out of 5 connected nodes and I could not find any setting to activate bloom filtering. I assume it filters the bloom by default ;) Shouldn't it ask for more peers to swap out those pre 0.8 peers?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: runeks on February 24, 2013, 04:15:25 PM
Version 0.8 just became available in the Bitcoin PPA.

To whomever controls this PPA: have you considered trying to get 0.8 included in the new 13.04 Ubuntu release? I'm not sure what the process entails, but it seems you've already went through all the trouble and created a package, and all they need to do is pull it into Raring.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 24, 2013, 04:59:25 PM
Quote from: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 02:16:07 PM
That's good news. Just installed it for the first time in one year and I must say, seeing "Synchronization stalled, 18 months behind" is frustrating not only for noobs. Hope that gets better. The peer monitor shows me one 0.8 out of 5 connected nodes and I could not find any setting to activate bloom filtering. I assume it filters the bloom by default ;) Shouldn't it ask for more peers to swap out those pre 0.8 peers?

Bloom filtering speeds up download of the part of the chain where your wallet exists. When you install it fresh for a new user, it still has to download all the headers to catch up and yes, this is too slow and yes, fixing it is my next highest priority. It needs to start up instantly for new users, no argument there.

The place you'll really notice the 0.8 difference is when it's finally caught up with the chain head and you open it a few days later, you'll see that it goes from being 1-2 days behind (since your last charge) to fully caught up almost instantly. Before it could take several minutes and use a ton of bandwidth. There are 144 blocks per day so you can imagine that if we started having 1mb sized blocks, it'd have to download and parse 144mb of data to catch up with a days worth of block chain which is just infeasible. With Bloom filtering, that's more like 30-40kb.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 24, 2013, 06:18:03 PM
Quote from: runeks on February 24, 2013, 04:15:25 PM
Version 0.8 just became available in the Bitcoin PPA.

To whomever controls this PPA: have you considered trying to get 0.8 included in the new 13.04 Ubuntu release? I'm not sure what the process entails, but it seems you've already went through all the trouble and created a package, and all they need to do is pull it into Raring.

Matt Corallo

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 06:59:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 24, 2013, 04:59:25 PM
Quote from: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 02:16:07 PM
That's good news. Just installed it for the first time in one year and I must say, seeing "Synchronization stalled, 18 months behind" is frustrating not only for noobs. Hope that gets better. The peer monitor shows me one 0.8 out of 5 connected nodes and I could not find any setting to activate bloom filtering. I assume it filters the bloom by default ;) Shouldn't it ask for more peers to swap out those pre 0.8 peers?

Bloom filtering speeds up download of the part of the chain where your wallet exists. When you install it fresh for a new user, it still has to download all the headers to catch up and yes, this is too slow and yes, fixing it is my next highest priority. It needs to start up instantly for new users, no argument there.

The place you'll really notice the 0.8 difference is when it's finally caught up with the chain head and you open it a few days later, you'll see that it goes from being 1-2 days behind (since your last charge) to fully caught up almost instantly. Before it could take several minutes and use a ton of bandwidth. There are 144 blocks per day so you can imagine that if we started having 1mb sized blocks, it'd have to download and parse 144mb of data to catch up with a days worth of block chain which is just infeasible. With Bloom filtering, that's more like 30-40kb.

In order to use it in Chile I need to switch off pre 0.8 full downloads and actually would like to switch off mobile network downloads at all. I would want to have it sync only on wifi or on demand on mobile internet.

And yes, if it is throwing away data that does not affect the own address and it just generated the first own address, it should be instantly ready.

Edit: I installed 0.8 and it is reindexing since an hour or so at 300% CPU.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 24, 2013, 08:40:48 PM
Quote from: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 06:59:40 PM
In order to use it in Chile I need to switch off pre 0.8 full downloads and actually would like to switch off mobile network downloads at all. I would want to have it sync only on wifi or on demand on mobile internet.

There's no option to switch off pre-0.8 downloads, but you can use the trusted peer preference and set it to a node you know runs 0.8. If you want to, you can use riker.plan99.net which is run by me, but don't forget to eventually unset this so you balance the load appropriately.

The app will sync automatically (if you don't change the setting) when plugged in and charging. So, assuming you have wifi at home and you charge at home, the daily sync will be over WiFi. Otherwise it'll only sync when you open the app. So you can avoid it using up your mobile quota by just not opening the app when you're on 3G.

On recent versions of Android, if you go into the data usage screen, you can tick a box that means the app won't be allowed to use background data when it's not got WiFi.

Quote
And yes, if it is throwing away data that does not affect the own address and it just generated the first own address, it should be instantly ready.

It is for me, so if you see something different let me know and we can investigate.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 11:31:10 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 24, 2013, 08:40:48 PM
Quote
And yes, if it is throwing away data that does not affect the own address and it just generated the first own address, it should be instantly ready.

It is for me, so if you see something different let me know and we can investigate.

Well, I just installed it and it ran into several ANR and out of battery and did not catch up the block chain in hours … ok, so it might get the balance straight from the start but still would have to check if the chain is a chain leading back to the genesis block, right?

Oh, funny. With the ANRs I had I put it to a charger and it ran out of battery despite the fact it was connected and switched off. Now when I click on the bitcoin wallet button I get a toast saying App isn't installed.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 25, 2013, 01:23:56 AM
Quote from: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 11:31:10 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 24, 2013, 08:40:48 PM
Quote
And yes, if it is throwing away data that does not affect the own address and it just generated the first own address, it should be instantly ready.

It is for me, so if you see something different let me know and we can investigate.

Well, I just installed it and it ran into several ANR and out of battery and did not catch up the block chain in hours … ok, so it might get the balance straight from the start but still would have to check if the chain is a chain leading back to the genesis block, right?

Oh, funny. With the ANRs I had I put it to a charger and it ran out of battery despite the fact it was connected and switched off. Now when I click on the bitcoin wallet button I get a toast saying App isn't installed.

yes.  i have a Samsung galaxy s3 and it sucked my battery down fast.  not sure i can deal with that.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 01:56:53 AM
Ubuntu is great! Just update/upgrade my system and Bitcoin 0.8 is up and running!

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: notme on February 25, 2013, 07:19:06 AM
Quote from: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 01:56:53 AM
Ubuntu is great! Just update/upgrade my system and Bitcoin 0.8 is up and running!

Arch linux is great.  I had bitcoin 0.8 five days ago :P.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 25, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Quote from: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 11:31:10 PM
Well, I just installed it and it ran into several ANR and out of battery and did not catch up the block chain in hours … ok, so it might get the balance straight from the start but still would have to check if the chain is a chain leading back to the genesis block, right?

It does at the moment but that's what we're going to fix next.

That experience was pretty disastrous. Did you report the ANRs with the crash reporter?

Quote
Oh, funny. With the ANRs I had I put it to a charger and it ran out of battery despite the fact it was connected and switched off. Now when I click on the bitcoin wallet button I get a toast saying App isn't installed.

The app isn't there at all? I don't know how that can happen unless you uninstalled it. What phone/version of Android is this?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 10:45:56 AM
Quote from: notme on February 25, 2013, 07:19:06 AM
Quote from: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 01:56:53 AM
Ubuntu is great! Just update/upgrade my system and Bitcoin 0.8 is up and running!

Arch linux is great.  I had bitcoin 0.8 five days ago :P.

Sure it is!   ;)

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 25, 2013, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 01:56:53 AM
Ubuntu is great! Just update/upgrade my system and Bitcoin 0.8 is up and running!

You using the ppa?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: giszmo on February 25, 2013, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 25, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Quote from: giszmo on February 24, 2013, 11:31:10 PM
Well, I just installed it and it ran into several ANR and out of battery and did not catch up the block chain in hours … ok, so it might get the balance straight from the start but still would have to check if the chain is a chain leading back to the genesis block, right?

It does at the moment but that's what we're going to fix next.

That experience was pretty disastrous. Did you report the ANRs with the crash reporter?
I reported it twice I guess. At least once.

Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 25, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Quote
Oh, funny. With the ANRs I had I put it to a charger and it ran out of battery despite the fact it was connected and switched off. Now when I click on the bitcoin wallet button I get a toast saying App isn't installed.

The app isn't there at all? I don't know how that can happen unless you uninstalled it. What phone/version of Android is this?
Well, I'm an Android dev, too, so yeah, I'm pretty surprised as well to say the least. If I uninstall an app, the app icon disappears from the launcher but that did not happen. The market told me it was uninstalled and when I clicked the launcher icon, it toasted the same. After istalling it again it was back with all the ANRs.

I have a Defy that had Android 2.1 installed so I (ok, it was my brothers that almost bricked and finally did it after 10h) upgraded it to 4.1 AOKP.

Also the blockchain is still 6 months behind despite the phone having been at the charger for hours.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on February 25, 2013, 12:42:11 PM
It seems that there are some serious issues catching up with the chain that didn't used to exist. I was able to reproduce some problems where getheaders wasn't working well. I'll be working on an improvement to block chain handling this week so it's faster and uses less disk space.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 25, 2013, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 01:56:53 AM
Ubuntu is great! Just update/upgrade my system and Bitcoin 0.8 is up and running!

You using the ppa?

Yes.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: grue on February 26, 2013, 12:07:14 AM
I love how someone made a forum ad to advertise 0.8 :D

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: cypherdoc on February 26, 2013, 11:12:32 PM
Quote from: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
Quote from: cypherdoc on February 25, 2013, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: ThiagoCMC on February 25, 2013, 01:56:53 AM
Ubuntu is great! Just update/upgrade my system and Bitcoin 0.8 is up and running!

You using the ppa?

Yes.

oh man, finally!  just got it downloaded and running.  very fast reindexing!

best of all, i can now see the wallet menus in Unity 12.04!  i can't tell you how much a pain that was not to be able to see it.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: giszmo on March 01, 2013, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: giszmo on February 25, 2013, 12:23:38 PM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 25, 2013, 09:13:20 AM
Quote
Oh, funny. With the ANRs I had I put it to a charger and it ran out of battery despite the fact it was connected and switched off. Now when I click on the bitcoin wallet button I get a toast saying App isn't installed.

The app isn't there at all? I don't know how that can happen unless you uninstalled it. What phone/version of Android is this?
Well, I'm an Android dev, too, so yeah, I'm pretty surprised as well to say the least. If I uninstall an app, the app icon disappears from the launcher but that did not happen. The market told me it was uninstalled and when I clicked the launcher icon, it toasted the same. After istalling it again it was back with all the ANRs.

I have a Defy that had Android 2.1 installed so I (ok, it was my brothers that almost bricked and finally did it after 10h) upgraded it to 4.1 AOKP.

Also the blockchain is still 6 months behind despite the phone having been at the charger for hours.

Uhm, now I'm really slightly pissed. It disappeared again. I have no clue how it does so.
Code:
$ adb shell
# cd data/data/de.schildbach.wallet/files/
# cat key-backup-base58
# KEEP YOUR PRIVATE KEYS SAFE! Anyone who can read this can spend your Bitcoins.
ToPsEcReTToPsEcReTToPsEcReTToPsEcReT 2013-02-24T15:06:10Z
… slightly relieved but still … will try to get my 0.2Ƀ to a working wallet and wait for the schildbach wallet to mature some more.
Unfortunately Spinner just today told me its server was not responding neither. This is not good :(

Edit: Successfully imported the key to my desktop wallet.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on March 01, 2013, 09:37:13 PM
An adb log from around the time it vanished might help us figure that out.

BTW we have an experimental version that does the initial sync much faster. It still needs some more work, but once it's done would you be willing to test it again?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: giszmo on March 02, 2013, 12:55:26 AM
Quote from: Mike Hearn on March 01, 2013, 09:37:13 PM
An adb log from around the time it vanished might help us figure that out.

BTW we have an experimental version that does the initial sync much faster. It still needs some more work, but once it's done would you be willing to test it again?

logcat. Good point. Check this out:
Code:
I/ActivityManager( 2492): START {act=android.intent.action.MAIN cat=[android.intent.category.LAUNCHER] flg=0x10200000 pkg=de.schildbach.wallet cmp=de.schildbach.wallet/.WalletActivity bnds=[192,467][288,610] u=0} from pid 2726
E/Nova.Launcher( 2726): Unable to launch. tag=ShortcutInfo(title=Bitcoin intent=Intent { act=android.intent.action.MAIN cat=[android.intent.category.LAUNCHER] flg=0x10200000 pkg=de.schildbach.wallet cmp=de.schildbach.wallet/.WalletActivity bnds=[192,467][288,610] }id=91 type=1 container=-100 screen=4 cellX=2 cellY=3 spanX=1 spanY=1 dropPos=null modelGeneration=2) intent=Intent { act=android.intent.action.MAIN cat=[android.intent.category.LAUNCHER] flg=0x10200000 pkg=de.schildbach.wallet cmp=de.schildbach.wallet/.WalletActivity bnds=[192,467][288,610] }
E/Nova.Launcher( 2726): android.content.ActivityNotFoundException: Unable to find explicit activity class {de.schildbach.wallet/de.schildbach.wallet.WalletActivity}; have you declared this activity in your AndroidManifest.xml?

I would guess I should not be the only one to have this problem. I have no clue how this ever can have worked but it tries to start de.schildbach.wallet.WalletActivity which according to this repository (https://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/source/browse/#git%2Fwallet%2Fsrc%2Fde%2Fschildbach%2Fwallet%253Fstate%253Dclosed) should be de.schildbach.wallet.ui.WalletActivity.
Hmm… on the other hand the Manifest defines an activity-alias … never used that.

It is not a nova launcher issue neither as the play market also states it is not installed.

When it happens again, I will check if the apk is here or not. The data was here. I pressed reboot and while it was shutting down I noticed it mentioned no bitcoins received yet although it showed me 0.2BTC, so it must have been reusing the old data.
After the reboot the transaction history was correct with the correct label as given before the install.

Ok I just uninstalled and installed again and that wiped the data as expected from a normal uninstall.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on March 02, 2013, 05:27:40 PM
That message just means it tried to start it and it was gone. I was hoping for a log around the time that it vanished.

Could you check the application manager if it happens again and see if it's in the list of installed apps? I wonder if it is somehow becoming disabled or unregistered with the activity manager but is actually still installed.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Dice on March 02, 2013, 06:50:52 PM
Done! :)

I can see faster speeds. I am on a laptop (relatively old). I get 1 block every 2 seconds which isn't too bad, faster then before thats for sure.

Thank you bitcoin devs!

EDIT: i noticed some people said they could see how many nodes were running on 0.8 is there a website that provides this data?

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: jim618 on March 02, 2013, 07:29:14 PM
Quote from: Dice on March 02, 2013, 06:50:52 PM
Done! :)

I can see faster speeds. I am on a laptop (relatively old). I get 1 block every 2 seconds which isn't too bad, faster then before thats for sure.

Thank you bitcoin devs!

EDIT: i noticed some people said they could see how many nodes were running on 0.8 is there a website that provides this data?

http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html (http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html)

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Sukrim on March 02, 2013, 08:22:23 PM
I ran 0.3.x until the release of 0.8.x now, there were no real new features I needed and if really somebody would do a DoS attack on older clients I could have upgraded anyways. Since there's a bunch of security advisories now released (+ fixed) and as I wanted to try out the QT interface, I upgraded.

Maybe the remaining 0.3.x clients are on web servers or not really maintained by their owners ("Oh this Bitcoin stuff sounds iteresting, let's install it, get a few coins from the faucet and play a bit..." - 1 year later: "What's this 10 GB 'block chain file' here?!"), or even more lazy/conservative with upgrades than I am.

Title: Re: Please upgrade to Bitcoin 0.8 and help Android/MultiBit users!
Post by: Mike Hearn on March 03, 2013, 06:00:48 PM
Actually running old versions can cause problems even if you don't think you need any of the new features. Old versions just generally cause problems for the network. It's best to stay up to date if you can.


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