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Title: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 07:19:08 AM Some ideas on how it could work:
- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: bitdumper on May 06, 2016, 07:29:30 AM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 07:35:18 AM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. Your posting reminds me on this: https://www.whitehatsec.com/wp-content/uploads/security.png Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BuWICK on May 06, 2016, 07:35:49 AM This is easy. They'd instruct their CIA henchmen to kidnap the immediate family members of the chairman of goldman sachs. The release clause: buy up all bitcoins on the open market and send them to us or the little one gets it first.... two weeks later, they dump the price down to zero and spilt the profit between themselves. Like they always do
Light work Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Leonius on May 06, 2016, 07:40:16 AM They want to do it but they have to be careful they dont bite the hand that feeds them - the people. They could end up losing more power than what they thought they would gain, how many control freak nutters want to do their dirty work these days i wonder. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 07:43:15 AM They want to do it but they have to be careful they dont bite the hand that feeds them - the people. They could end up losing more power than what they thought they would gain, how many control freak nutters want to do their dirty work these days i wonder. If they see Bitcoin as a competitor to the USD, they would gain control, which seems to be more important than a few hungry bitcoin anarchists. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: n691309 on May 06, 2016, 07:50:28 AM One of the way to control bitcoin maybe they would hire developers to be included in the core dev team and gradually taking control of most of things about bitcoin.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Leonius on May 06, 2016, 07:51:20 AM They want to do it but they have to be careful they dont bite the hand that feeds them - the people. They could end up losing more power than what they thought they would gain, how many control freak nutters want to do their dirty work these days i wonder. If they see Bitcoin as a competitor to the USD, they would gain control, which seems to be more important than a few hungry bitcoin anarchists. Its probably a few hundred thousand over the world total right? still not that many agree. Wont it be like silk road anyway though, if they take down bitcoin and people use bitcoin 2.0. So its better they work with the system so things like: Quote - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff We should watch for that, recent satoshi situation might be something of concern. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 08:02:54 AM They want to do it but they have to be careful they dont bite the hand that feeds them - the people. They could end up losing more power than what they thought they would gain, how many control freak nutters want to do their dirty work these days i wonder. If they see Bitcoin as a competitor to the USD, they would gain control, which seems to be more important than a few hungry bitcoin anarchists. Its probably a few hundred thousand over the world total right? still not that many agree. Wont it be like silk road anyway though, if they take down bitcoin and people use bitcoin 2.0. So its better they work with the system so things like: Quote - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff We should watch for that, recent satoshi situation might be something of concern. This and the blocksize debate. Is this infiltration thingy a topic with the core devs? If so, do they have an idea how to prevent? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 08:17:45 AM Just found a dusty old post of mine:
+1 because thanks to Gavn, we have a scenario, where exacty this reverse exploit could be implemented. Please core devs: Don't let it happen! http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/02/04/challenge-vulnerable-code.aspx http://www.underhanded-c.org/_p_26.html Quote This challenge appeared on an internal alias dedicated to C++. It was issued by Mike Vine, a developer here at Microsoft who agreed to let us share it with the mighty Visual C++ blog readers: This challenge came from me thinking about a simple bug which could be turned into a security vulnerability, so I thought I’d give it a go and try to code a plausibly deniable piece of code which looks innocent but is actually dangerous. I managed to actually go further than that, and produced something, that whilst unlikely, could possibly have come from non-malicious but sloppy coding. So your challenge is – if you choose to accept it – analyze the sample code file “main.c” (attached) and try to find the (fairly obvious) security faux pas and ‘accidental’ bug which causes the security faux pas to be exploitable. Quote The 7th Underhanded C Contest is now open. The goal of the contest is to write code that is as readable, clear, innocent and straightforward as possible, and yet it must fail to perform at its apparent function. To be more specific, it should do something subtly evil. Every year, we will propose a challenge to coders to solve a simple data processing problem, but with covert malicious behavior. Examples include miscounting votes, shaving money from financial transactions, or leaking information to an eavesdropper. The main goal, however, is to write source code that easily passes visual inspection by other programmers. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Denker on May 06, 2016, 08:21:45 AM It seems to be difficult for them to attack and control Bitcoin from the technical vector.Many nerds are in the crypto space who are also very cautious and paranoid.
The only real serious attack vector I see left is social engineering and infiltration.And I'm sure we already see this happening.Maybe not coming from the NSA but the once in power of the financial industry. Just have a look how many trolls and anti bitcoin shills are flooding in here, coordinated at certain events or times.FUD, divide and conquer and so on. This is no coincidence! Bitcoin is a becoming a serious threat to so many industries that they will try everything they can do to stop it. Killing is no option imo.Even if they try to make it look like an accident.This will make the ones who died become martyr. The reaction to this is would be that coders continue working from underground and more and more supporting them. An obvious open attack will not work.Therefore they will try it over the sneaky bastardized way (this for instance includes planting crimes on devs, threat, bribe, FUD, divide and conquer). Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: lolxxxx on May 06, 2016, 08:27:35 AM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. If they block the Chinese, then they only need like 20% of the hash power. Exactly Chinese owns 51% of total hashing power but it is not so true because some largest pools are located in china and they are public pools which means that anyone can mine bitcoin from anywhere . BTW , If NSA found that bitcoin is beating USD then they will take control , They will do whatever they found necessary to stop bitcoin (block bitcoin). And my guess is NSA is already involved there teams in Bitcoins . So they can take over anytime . Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: bob123 on May 06, 2016, 08:37:42 AM If they really feel like they want to take control over Bitcoin they will do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: monsanto on May 06, 2016, 08:44:02 AM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. I think they would start by buying a bitcointalk member account (at least hero level) and making a post asking for ideas... something like "How could NSA take control over Bitcoin?" :) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: PinkLlama on May 06, 2016, 08:47:30 AM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. I think they would start by buying a bitcointalk member account (at least hero level) and making a post asking for ideas... something like "How could NSA take control over Bitcoin?" :) lmao this Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 08:49:08 AM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. I think they would start by buying a bitcointalk member account (at least hero level) and making a post asking for ideas... something like "How could NSA take control over Bitcoin?" :) Blast! My evil plan is foiled. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: OmegaStarScream on May 06, 2016, 08:54:58 AM Bitcoin reached a point where it can't be stopped anymore so I don't think there is anything to do to kill it or even control it . I mean they can try ... but I don't think they will achieve their goal . (unless the Bitcoin community goes retard and don't care about decentralization and privacy etc... anymore).
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 09:11:30 AM Bitcoin reached a point where it can't be stopped anymore so I don't think there is anything to do to kill it or even control it . I mean they can try ... but I don't think they will achieve their goal . (unless the Bitcoin community goes retard and don't care about decentralization and privacy etc... anymore). I see your point and I also would like to see Bitcoin succeed and still keep being decentralized, but there are some bottlenecks, like the group of core developers and a few respected members of the community, which could be slowly become infiltrated, deceived, discredited and/or replaced. I think Andreas A. made the right move by not going to this meeting in London, esp. when he thinks that "everybody can be fooled by a smart con artist". He should have asked me (AGD: Andreas, tell Craig to sign a message with his key from 2008 or to GTFO) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 09:16:24 AM Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? Actually the best way to take over Bitcoin, imho, would be to get a few agents become core devs, respected (and influential!) members of the community. Then they can take whatever decisions they want, from blacklisting you to putting your IP into the transaction or whatever surveillance ideas they could have. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 09:23:03 AM Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? Actually the best way to take over Bitcoin, imho, would be to get a few agents become core devs, respected (and influential!) members of the community. Then they can take whatever decisions they want, from blacklisting you to putting your IP into the transaction or whatever surveillance ideas they could have. Many people would even agree to it, when they read, that Al-Baghdadi is using Bitcoins to transfer money to his international fight club and there is a need to change some parts of the code, that is EXCLUSIVELY being used to hunt terrorists. Since I am no terrorist and I have nothing to hide ... go along. I know you are protecting me. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 09:34:35 AM Since I am no terrorist and I have nothing to hide ... go along. I know you are protecting me. So, in contrast to terrorists law abiding citizens and entities have nothing to hide?!NSA have a lot to hide... Are they terrorists? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: DimensionZ on May 06, 2016, 09:36:48 AM I think the only way to control Bitcoin is to control the developers in charge of developing Bitcoin and if they want to disrupt the Bitcoin network they would need to do a 51% attack but that would need a lot of hash power. But what would the NSA achieve by stopping Bitcoin it's not like they are going to take all our coins and sell them on the market for profit anyway.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 09:47:25 AM Many people would even agree to it, when they read, that Al-Baghdadi is using Bitcoins to transfer money to his international fight club and there is a need to change some parts of the code, that is EXCLUSIVELY being used to hunt terrorists. Since I am no terrorist and I have nothing to hide ... go along. I know you are protecting me. For now I suspect quite a lot of people have used Bitcoin to hide big funds (simplest case would be tax evasion). They are not terrorists. NSA would have, however, only small additions to have to Bitcoin, since the transfers are already somehow traceable. Blocking addresses would not do much harm since I am certain that for main transfers the terrorists can just learn easily to always use different addresses. And actually I feel that Bitcoin is safe from NSA intrusion since they don't have much to gain from it and the costs could be big. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 10:07:03 AM And actually I feel that Bitcoin is safe from NSA intrusion since they don't have much to gain from it and the costs could be big. They don't have much to gain but they have much to lose. Their budget is in dollars not in bitcoins. What will happen if dollar value plummets?Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: mki8 on May 06, 2016, 10:21:27 AM NSA have a lot to hide... Are they terrorists? fk me...........no offense personally but you must be from the states, and dont know how the rest of the world looks at the states Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 10:38:27 AM And actually I feel that Bitcoin is safe from NSA intrusion since they don't have much to gain from it and the costs could be big. They don't have much to gain but they have much to lose. Their budget is in dollars not in bitcoins. What will happen if dollar value plummets?Then they will ask the government to print more money and give them more. That's the "beauty" of printed money and governments (and their agencies). NSA have a lot to hide... Are they terrorists? fk me...........no offense personally but you must be from the states, and dont know how the rest of the world looks at the states NSA have a lot to hide. The army has a lot to hide. Some of those things are legit. Some may be not. The not legit part is a problem. But normally such agencies have a lot to hide and it's OK. I am not from US, but still, while I am (very) far from thinking NSA are saints, I am also sure that Hollywood movies about NSA are... fiction. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 11:05:28 AM But normally such agencies have a lot to hide and it's OK. Really? Is it really OK? But why for all of us is NOT OK if we hide something? Why are such animals (aka agencies) more equal than others? Are we living in a Democratic Republic or in Orwellian Animal Farm?If they are special agency then I'm special person... Where can I apply for a special person status, so that I can have the right to hide something? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 11:22:24 AM Since I am no terrorist and I have nothing to hide ... go along. I know you are protecting me. So, in contrast to terrorists law abiding citizens and entities have nothing to hide?!NSA have a lot to hide... Are they terrorists? I should have put this sentence in quotes for a better understanding. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: LCSociety on May 06, 2016, 11:27:50 AM Craig White said he was "forced" to speak out. Question is, by whom?
People throw around these three letter abbreviations flippantly, they forget that these agencies, especially the nsa spend 24 hours each and every day monitoring all pockets of activity that occur on the web If they wanted to infiltrate then, rest assured, they already have Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Jet Cash on May 06, 2016, 11:29:41 AM America isn't able to take control of anything. As soon as an entity becomes significant in the world, the managers/owners move it offshore. Look at Google, Apple, Big Pharma etc.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: LCSociety on May 06, 2016, 11:42:59 AM America isn't able to take control of anything. As soon as an entity becomes significant in the world, the managers/owners move it offshore. Look at Google, Apple, Big Pharma etc. The internet is global. No such thing as "offshore" when dealing online. Look what they did to KimDotCom. Full US swat team landed on his property in new Zealand as if it were some slum village in Vietnam. They took all of his property, froze all of his assets and told him to f** off. The only reason he isn't in jail right now is because he is still able to pay for a credible group of legal advisors Google, apple, "big pharma" are all huge lobbyists and donate hundereds of millions toward 'their own' political causes in the united states. So you're right. America "isn't able to take control" of these guys, because it is these corporations that control America If the nsa felt the urge to infiltrate bitcoin, they will have already done this even back when bitcoin was nothing but a seedling of an idea. Look what they did with the silk road. They didn't wait till it was some rogue rival to GlaxoSmithKline, they penetrated very early and after robbing enough btc over a period of 'years', they brought the entire thing down and made themselves look like the heroes. Also, the nsa might not want to destroy bitcoin at all. Bitcoin is actually the wet dream of an agency like the nsa Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: fenican on May 06, 2016, 11:54:54 AM Agree they love Bitcoin so why kill it? Every transaction in Bitcoin is traceable so once you figure out what address someone is using, usually an easy investigation, you can figure out where all their money went. Contrast with cash where there is no audit trail.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: raphma on May 06, 2016, 01:07:55 PM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. Well... that could happen with the new quantum computer but it will need time to nsa put their hands on one of these. At the same time they want one quantum, companies already work on new cryptography to avoid that, so... it's possible but wont be easy. I don't see any government succeeding in control bitcoin for now, at least for some years(10+). Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 01:12:59 PM But normally such agencies have a lot to hide and it's OK. Really? Is it really OK? But why for all of us is NOT OK if we hide something? Why are such animals (aka agencies) more equal than others? Are we living in a Democratic Republic or in Orwellian Animal Farm?If they are special agency then I'm special person... Where can I apply for a special person status, so that I can have the right to hide something? If police tells "we think that one of ISIS funders is John Doe from city X, street Y and we go now to catch him", he may just escape. So it's OK to keep secret. If the army has this and that which could keep the country safe, it's OK to keep it secret, since else the others will build something better. If NSA can crack Bitcoin and see whoever sends whatever amounts where, they'll keep it secret to find easier the terrorists, the tax evaders and so on, and it's OK. Of course, they can hide this way also illegal stuff, which obviously is not OK, but that was not my point. And whether you admit it or not, you have secrets too. And it's OK. Maybe you smoke in secret, or take drugs, maybe you masturbate and would not like everybody to know, maybe you have a mistress, or .. whatever, I hope you've got my point. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: pbleak on May 06, 2016, 01:22:03 PM The NSA have no obvious history of doing something like this (the FBI do).
I would imagine it would involve a few tactics: (a) at least one member in Core providing excellent code for a long time that then begins to cause debate/trouble. (b) introduce a bug or bad feature that turns users off Bitcoin (that is, destroy the user experience subtly). (c) encourage further scams or dark net markets to re-associate Bitcoin with crime. (d) fund counter, centralised blockchains to bleed money from the Bitcoin economy. (e) fund relatively decent alt-coins to channel money from Bitcoin to fragment the economy. (f) cause trouble with the mining network wherever possible, disrupt pools, ddos large pools, spread rumours about the Chinese operation. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 06, 2016, 01:29:15 PM We need to bring back civics education. ::)
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Cuidler on May 06, 2016, 02:04:32 PM To take control over Bitcoin, you need to take control over Bitcoin Core actually. This would be very slow process of infiltration + discrediting estabilished Bitcoin Core members. It would take many years, but quite achievable.
The only possibility of failure to the above strategy would be if in meantime 1) Bitcoin Core lose defacto monopoly in Bitcoin development process 2) miners starts voting only for the BIPs which they believe are benefitical for them, and not just running the latest Bitcoin Core version, thus automatically vote for every new Bitcoin Core BIP proposal by default Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 02:18:16 PM .. whatever, I hope you've got my point. I've got your point. Let me summarize it:- everybody can have secrets and that is OK - NSA have secrets and taxpayers are not allowed to know them because taxpayers will not be safe if they know them. - If taxpayers have secrets NSA have the right to know them because taxpayers will be safe if NSA know their secrets Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 03:23:21 PM .. whatever, I hope you've got my point. I've got your point. Let me summarize it:- everybody can have secrets and that is OK - NSA have secrets and taxpayers are not allowed to know them because taxpayers will not be safe if they know them. - If taxpayers have secrets NSA have the right to know them because taxpayers will be safe if NSA know their secrets However silly it sounds, yes, this is the big picture. The other alternative would be the Eden: no secrets at all, we all go naked, nothing wrong will happen. I guess that this is what you'd like. Oh well, the sad truth is that some say that there was a snake in Eden and then everything was ruined. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: JaneEverycunt on May 06, 2016, 03:37:58 PM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? - Find dirt on devs; offer laughably small sums of money to put on jackboots. Alternative: fed time. - Offer Chinese miners actual IRL money > 12.5 BTC after the halvening to solve blocks. - Block port 8333 at provider level. - Be like Russia and Iceland, make BTC illegal. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 03:41:12 PM .. whatever, I hope you've got my point. I've got your point. Let me summarize it:- everybody can have secrets and that is OK - NSA have secrets and taxpayers are not allowed to know them because taxpayers will not be safe if they know them. - If taxpayers have secrets NSA have the right to know them because taxpayers will be safe if NSA know their secrets However silly it sounds, yes, this is the big picture. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 04:02:41 PM If it sounds silly and it looks silly most probably it is silly. All you want to imply is that there's only black and white, no other choice. I know, it sounds scary that you cannot, in theory, have secrets. But that's only in theory. Nothing can be monitored perfectly. From the point that some things happened in places inaccessible for the ones that do the monitoring to the point there's so much information that it doesn't matter they do the monitoring or not, they cannot find you unless they look express for you or you draw attention. Some years ago it was said that mails are monitored and certain words like bomb, meth, "rang the alarm". From maybe millions of mails sent each second.. what can they find? Hmm? And then add up all the other means to find your secrets. What do they do? Search for needles in the haystack. A huge haystack. So, back to start. Imho you have your secrets, they have theirs. They have the good reasons to find yours if they can harm "the country". You don't have good reasons to find theirs. If you are like 99.999% of us, then let them try to do the monitoring they want; you will not be caught in their patterns, they will not care of your secrets. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Wapinter on May 06, 2016, 04:07:30 PM Some ideas on how it could work: The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 04:11:21 PM If you are like 99.999% of us, then let them try to do the monitoring they want; you will not be caught in their patterns, they will not care of your secrets. I will not give them my taxpayer money to let them monitor me! I'm not an imbecile. Case solved.Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: whored on May 06, 2016, 04:12:30 PM The question is why would they do it? If Bitcoin becomes a threat or a nuisance? @becoin re. "my taxpayer money" -- they actually tax your dole? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Snorek on May 06, 2016, 04:13:59 PM Some ideas on how it could work: The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? Then you could impose some ideas on rest of the community and lead it where you want it. And maybe that is their plan? They don't want bitcoin to be useful anymore, they want to be 'failed experiment'. No more bitcoin = stronger dollar, maybe? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 04:14:22 PM Some ideas on how it could work: The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? I was not saying "destroy" but "take control", which is significantly different. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Wapinter on May 06, 2016, 04:18:06 PM Some ideas on how it could work: The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? I was not saying "destroy" but "take control", which is significantly different. So it is not different whether they contol it or destroy it Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 04:21:25 PM You don't have good reasons to find theirs. I do have.Taxpayers have very good reasons to know what their taxes are spent for. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 06, 2016, 04:27:22 PM I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". Not in this thread, not in any thread in the last 6 years. The only possible concern I have is a loss of net neutrality. If that happens all decisions about what will be allowed on the internet are in the hands of a few people. It would be the end of all electronic privacy and bitcoin may be the least of our concerns.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Almagro on May 06, 2016, 04:31:38 PM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? this frightens me a lot =x Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: JaneEverycunt on May 06, 2016, 04:36:18 PM I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". ... - Find dirt on devs; offer laughably small sums of money to put on jackboots. Alternative: fed time. - Offer Chinese miners actual IRL money > 12.5 BTC after the halvening to solve blocks. - Block port 8333 at provider level. - Be like Russia and Iceland, make BTC illegal. Maybe you're just not looking? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 06, 2016, 04:48:50 PM I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". Not in this thread, not in any thread in the last 6 years. The only possible concern I have is a loss of net neutrality. If that happens all decisions about what will be allowed on the internet are in the hands of a few people. It would be the end of all electronic privacy and bitcoin may be the least of our concerns. This thread is not about destroying Bitcoin. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: MingLee on May 06, 2016, 05:01:31 PM If the NSA was really hell-bent on taking over Bitcoin, they would have to basically get at the core of Bitcoin; the miners. If they can control them, either through technical or physical control, then they can decide how to move coins, restrict blocks, and other various things. They would have to strike at the heart in order to kill it, anything outside of that wouldn't mean anything.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 05:35:16 PM If the NSA was really hell-bent on taking over Bitcoin, they would have to basically get at the core of Bitcoin; the miners. If they can control them, either through technical or physical control, then they can decide how to move coins, restrict blocks, and other various things. They would have to strike at the heart in order to kill it, anything outside of that wouldn't mean anything. So, bitcoin is safe because majority of miners are beyond the reach of NSA in China.Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: X badapple X on May 06, 2016, 05:38:42 PM If the NSA was really hell-bent on taking over Bitcoin, they would have to basically get at the core of Bitcoin; the miners. If they can control them, either through technical or physical control, then they can decide how to move coins, restrict blocks, and other various things. They would have to strike at the heart in order to kill it, anything outside of that wouldn't mean anything. So, bitcoin is safe because majority of miners are beyond the reach of NSA in China.Safe from NSA, not safe from Communist government which can make BTC illegal/nationalize mines :( Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 05:38:53 PM I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". Not in this thread, not in any thread in the last 6 years. The only possible concern I have is a loss of net neutrality. If that happens all decisions about what will be allowed on the internet are in the hands of a few people. It would be the end of all electronic privacy and bitcoin may be the least of our concerns. This thread is not about destroying Bitcoin. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 06, 2016, 05:41:12 PM I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". ... - Find dirt on devs; offer laughably small sums of money to put on jackboots. Alternative: fed time. - Offer Chinese miners actual IRL money > 12.5 BTC after the halvening to solve blocks. - Block port 8333 at provider level. - Be like Russia and Iceland, make BTC illegal. Maybe you're just not looking? -So the NSA is going to offer millions (billions?) of dollars to miners in China? Where is that money coming from? It would take congressional funding. "Congress I want a billion dollars to give to the Chinese so that we can disrupt the bitcoin network for a few weeks. Oh, and we get nothing in return." that is not logical. -Blocking port 8333 is extremely easy to deal with. It would also require the cooperation of every single provider on Earth. It is impossible to imagine. As I mentioned earlier, loss of net neutrality is the only way to broadly disrupt transactions. This would, however, only apply to servers in the U.S. I would just rent some server space in Panama and carry on. Illegal on what grounds? The law is not just a guy who says what is illegal. There has to be a legal justification and the courts in the U.S. have already made their decision. Some people point out that liberty dollars and other currencies have been found to be illegal in the past. But none of those arguments were found to be valid in the case of bitcoin. If you live in a dictatorship or something then this may be a problem. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Slowturtleinc on May 06, 2016, 05:41:18 PM NSA can search cell phones and laptops of people travelling through airports and just create a program to quickly look for bitcoin addresses and wallets. Starting with harrassing travellers would get enough message out that people need to be weary that it will trickle outwards into concerned parents and family.
Crossing a state line/border could become a issue for any one with bitcoin and they could start rounding known bitcoin supporter up in roadblocks. It really would not be as hard as people think to start making bitcoin harder to use. Have internet providers ban access to wallets,exchanges and anywhere that buys and sells. Always point to this but look at black friday for poker online and how effective that was at dropping traffic. You could make bitcoin illegal and easily get the same outcome but most likly more severe. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Blacula X on May 06, 2016, 05:42:21 PM I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". Not in this thread, not in any thread in the last 6 years. The only possible concern I have is a loss of net neutrality. If that happens all decisions about what will be allowed on the internet are in the hands of a few people. It would be the end of all electronic privacy and bitcoin may be the least of our concerns. This thread is not about destroying Bitcoin. >heavily invested miners :D Miners aren't heavily invested, at least not in actual BTC, they sell it. Cometh teh halvening, their operations will be outright unprofitable, and then... :) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 05:44:50 PM If the NSA was really hell-bent on taking over Bitcoin, they would have to basically get at the core of Bitcoin; the miners. If they can control them, either through technical or physical control, then they can decide how to move coins, restrict blocks, and other various things. They would have to strike at the heart in order to kill it, anything outside of that wouldn't mean anything. So, bitcoin is safe because majority of miners are beyond the reach of NSA in China.Safe from NSA, not safe from Communist government which can make BTC illegal/nationalize mines :( Quote Executive Order 6102 is a United States presidential executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States". The effect of the order, in conjunction with the statute under which it was issued, was to criminalize the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Blacula X on May 06, 2016, 05:55:33 PM I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". ... - Find dirt on devs; offer laughably small sums of money to put on jackboots. Alternative: fed time. - Offer Chinese miners actual IRL money > 12.5 BTC after the halvening to solve blocks. - Block port 8333 at provider level. - Be like Russia and Iceland, make BTC illegal. Maybe you're just not looking? Quote -So the NSA is going to offer millions (billions?) of dollars to miners in China? Where is that money coming from? It would take congressional funding. "Congress I want a billion dollars to give to the Chinese so that we can disrupt the bitcoin network for a few weeks. Oh, and we get nothing in return." that is not logical. You think NSA can't raise millions, billions, or trillions of dollars? You think NSA is poor? The sort of money needed to buy out the miners is probably in their petty cash drawer :)Quote -Blocking port 8333 is extremely easy to deal with. It would also require the cooperation of every single provider on Earth. It is impossible to imagine. As I mentioned earlier, loss of net neutrality is the only way to broadly disrupt transactions. This would, however, only apply to servers in the U.S. I would just rent some server space in Panama and carry on. It would not require every provider, just your provider. Also see the Great Chinese Firewall, Easily done on nationwide level.Quote Illegal on what grounds? The law is not just a guy who says what is illegal. There has to be a legal justification and the courts in the U.S. have already made their decision. Some people point out that liberty dollars and other currencies have been found to be illegal in the past. But none of those arguments were found to be valid in the case of bitcoin. If you live in a dictatorship or something then this may be a problem. Please. You really think American people accept strip-searches before boarding a plane, no smoking in bars, but will somehow revolt when the currency already responsible for 40% of criminal payments on the internet :o gets banned? Just lol.Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: X badapple X on May 06, 2016, 05:57:40 PM Safe from NSA, not safe from Communist government which can make BTC illegal/nationalize mines :( Capitalist governments can also make BTC illegal/nationalize mines and even peoples possessions.Good point, that too! :) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: jackg on May 06, 2016, 06:03:27 PM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? It would be easier for them to reverse engieer every address as there will be similarities between that and the rivate keys. Alternatively, broardcasting transactions and bypassing the initial core requirements for sent transactions would also allow for them to control Bitcoin. Whilst improbable there will always be a way for certain eople to take over the network and manipulate it in their favour. What would be easier, to buy a billion Bitcoins and sell them on in stacks of 1 million at $1/Bitcoin deflating the market of Bitcoin and forcin people to withdraw from Bitcoin (they could also buy all the bitcoins mined and found at £500 each). Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: 18xk5oT2rLrAc24SL96XT14BX on May 06, 2016, 06:09:27 PM they can try ... but I don't think they will achieve their goal . (unless the Bitcoin community goes retard and don't care about decentralization and privacy etc... anymore).
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Blacula X on May 06, 2016, 06:11:32 PM What would be easier, to buy a billion Bitcoins and sell them on in stacks of 1 million at $1/Bitcoin deflating the market of Bitcoin and forcin people to withdraw from Bitcoin (they could also buy all the bitcoins mined and found at £500 each). What would be easiest is just making cashing out into fiat difficult (banking regulations),Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Holliday on May 06, 2016, 06:14:21 PM Quote Executive Order 6102 is a United States presidential executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States". The effect of the order, in conjunction with the statute under which it was issued, was to criminalize the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation. FTFY Capitalism is based on private ownership of the means of production. When you start talking about nationalizing things, you are no longer talking about capitalism. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: X badapple X on May 06, 2016, 06:20:14 PM Quote Executive Order 6102 is a United States presidential executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States". The effect of the order, in conjunction with the statute under which it was issued, was to criminalize the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation. FTFY Capitalism is based on private ownership of the means of production. When you start talking about nationalizing things, you are no longer talking about capitalism. Gold is "means of production"? Though many countries that are considered to be capitalist "nationalize" the means of production when times are tough. Think Britain during WW2. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 06:20:21 PM It would be easier for them to reverse engieer every address as there will be similarities between that and the rivate keys. Are you sure you know what are talking about?Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Evildrum on May 06, 2016, 06:36:39 PM NSA would most likely not be working alone in this manner and they could use dirty funds to manipulate the price if needed to make bitcoin look unstable. They could run smear campaigns on high ranked bitcoin founders and celebrities. Any step that did not work would escalate the issue till it was dealt with once and for all.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: JaneEverycunt on May 06, 2016, 06:41:44 PM NSA ... could run smear campaigns on high ranked bitcoin founders and celebrities. Number of [ex] Bitcoin Foundation directors doing time: 2 that I know of (Charlie and MagicalTux). No smear campaigns required :D Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BellaBitBit on May 06, 2016, 06:47:59 PM Not going to happen. They would have to deal with the Chinese on this and this is an American agency. The good part about bitcoin is that it is global and there is no global agency that can take control of it.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 06, 2016, 08:26:16 PM When was the last time you audited the code? Do you even code? And sure, devs have much more control than everyone. It has been months since I looked at it closely. I compile from source but it's true that I don't check every distro. I also know C++ but I'm not good enough to call myself a coder and do relie on the community to discover malicious code to some degree. Quote You think NSA can't raise millions, billions, or trillions of dollars? You think NSA is poor? The sort of money needed to buy out the miners is probably in their petty cash drawer :) They struggle to make their budget like every other agency. While they have big money they also have huge expenses. The annual budget is about 11 Billion. They are not stupid and anyone proposing to spend 10% of the budget on an operation with no logical purpose will be looking for a job soon. Quote It would not require every provider, just your provider. Also see the Great Chinese Firewall, Easily done on nationwide level. Then my new provider in Panama gets the worm. China may be a different story. They are a totalitarian state and could do whatever they want to their people. Quote Please. You really think American people accept strip-searches before boarding a plane, no smoking in bars, but will somehow revolt when the currency already responsible for 40% of criminal payments on the internet :o gets banned? Just lol. I fly all the time and have never been strip searched, and I commute from the middle east. They do not support a strip search and that is why it is not happening. Banning smoking in bars was a decision by society because few people smoke anymore. It doesn't bother me, but most people support the ban. When most Americans smoked it was unthinkable to have such a rule. Now where did you come up with this 40% figure? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Blacula X on May 06, 2016, 09:14:30 PM When was the last time you audited the code? Do you even code? And sure, devs have much more control than everyone. It has been months since I looked at it closely. I compile from source but it's true that I don't check every distro. I also know C++ but I'm not good enough to call myself a coder and do relie on the community to discover malicious code to some degree. Quote You think NSA can't raise millions, billions, or trillions of dollars? You think NSA is poor? The sort of money needed to buy out the miners is probably in their petty cash drawer :) They struggle to make their budget like every other agency. While they have big money they also have huge expenses. The annual budget is about 11 Billion. They are not stupid and anyone proposing to spend 10% of the budget on an operation with no logical purpose will be looking for a job soon. Quote It would not require every provider, just your provider. Also see the Great Chinese Firewall, Easily done on nationwide level. Then my new provider in Panama gets the worm. China may be a different story. They are a totalitarian state and could do whatever they want to their people. Quote Please. You really think American people accept strip-searches before boarding a plane, no smoking in bars, but will somehow revolt when the currency already responsible for 40% of criminal payments on the internet :o gets banned? Just lol. I fly all the time and have never been strip searched, and I commute from the middle east. They do not support a strip search and that is why it is not happening. Banning smoking in bars was a decision by society because few people smoke anymore. It doesn't bother me, but most people support the ban. When most Americans smoked it was unthinkable to have such a rule. Now where did you come up with this 40% figure? So you don't think NSA can raise a few million bucks? Just lol. Re. not having been strip searched: I have. Had a coin in my pocket. NY to LA flight. Re. 40%: "Europol said that, according to its data, bitcoin accounts for as much as 40% of criminal-to-criminal payments online, with PayPal accounting for 25% of those reported. The figures build on previous statements from the agency regarding cryptocurrencies as a key factor in the development of the so-called "crime-as-a-service" ecosystem." -- http://www.coindesk.com/europol-bitcoin-european-cybercriminals/ Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 06, 2016, 09:30:33 PM The figures build on previous statements from the agency regarding cryptocurrencies as a key factor in the development of the so-called "crime-as-a-service" ecosystem." This is the way it is supposed to be. Every service that is not under government control is a crime. Bitcoin separates money from state. It is a crime by definition!Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Blacula X on May 06, 2016, 09:37:38 PM The figures build on previous statements from the agency regarding cryptocurrencies as a key factor in the development of the so-called "crime-as-a-service" ecosystem." This is the way it is supposed to be. Every service that is not under government control is a crime. Bitcoin separates money from state. It is a crime by definition!You're misattributing. Fix pl0x. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 07, 2016, 06:40:53 AM Still, my question remains:
Quote Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: TotalPanda on May 07, 2016, 06:46:03 AM I think they would start by buying a bitcointalk member account (at least hero level) and making a post asking for ideas... something like "How could NSA take control over Bitcoin?" :) hahaha :DTitle: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: DimensionZ on May 07, 2016, 07:19:25 AM Not going to happen. They would have to deal with the Chinese on this and this is an American agency. The good part about bitcoin is that it is global and there is no global agency that can take control of it. But an agency backed by the government surely has the resources to build a supercomputer that can do a 51% attack on the Bitcoin network. The Chinese have most of the hashing power only because the electricity there is very cheap but that doesn't mean any other country in the world couldn't emulate the Chinese mining farms hashing power. Bitcoin has no headquarters anywhere in the world but it still is dependent on the Internet to function. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BitcoinSupremo on May 07, 2016, 07:37:50 AM I hope in the Chinese don't let NSA or CIA to make a 51% network attack, as they will be losing the most in this situation. Still why would NSA want to block Bitcoin? For now its not a threat but maybe in future if Bitcoin goes mainstream, then if its not by the government its not legal by definition may really take place as a situation.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 07, 2016, 07:44:38 AM Assuming that there are several forces with different political agendas, which could compete in controlling Bitcoin core and I could make a vote, I'd prefer to be controlled by the US or EU (my personal "big brother" fave btw) rather than China (edit: or Russia, North-Korea, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Jordania or whatever). Just my personal opinion.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 07, 2016, 08:21:17 AM I'd prefer to be controlled by the US or EU (my personal "big brother" fave btw) rather than China I don't want to be controlled by anyone but if its inevitable I'd prefer China. US and EU is one and the same. EU is a subsidiary of US when it comes to control and surveillance. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 07, 2016, 02:52:40 PM Some historical stuff:
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/money/nsamint/nsamint.htm Quote HOW TO MAKE A MINT: THE CRYPTOGRAPHY OF ANONYMOUS ELECTRONIC CASH Laurie Law, Susan Sabett, Jerry Solinas National Security Agency Office of Information Security Research and Technology Cryptology Division 18 June 1996 and https://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/is-the-national-security-agency-behind-bitcoin/ Quote Conclusion Even today it’s too early to come to conclusions about Bitcoin. Perhaps it’s still a well-intentioned try, destined to failure by its faulty design, or destroyed by the agencies. Or it was designed from day one as a tool to help maintain control of the money supplies of the world. But it is amazing how the NSA report addresses the ‘need’ for privacy with transactions as the main monetary issue, ignoring all the far, far more important problems we have with our money, and how Bitcoin answers exactly the challenge put forward. Knowing the ways these people think and operate, this NSA report basically puts to rest the notion that Bitcoin was a completely innocent ‘free market’ or ‘human action’ kind of thing to begin with. edit Quote Bitcoin architecture The NSA report goes deeply into the challenges a crypto currency faces and lists the various security and implicated regulatory risks. Both from the point of view from regulators and developers of such schemes. Amazingly, a key writer of the report is called Tatsuaki Okamoto. In the Bitcoin community this has been picked up as remarkably similar to Satoshi Nakamoto, the pseudonym of the enigmatic developer of Bitcoin. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Blawpaw on May 07, 2016, 04:02:04 PM I don't actually think it is possible even for the NSA to control bitcoin. From my understanding, the only way of controlling Bitcoin was to successfully implement a 51% attack, and that this point it would cost trillions of dollars just to do that. So, other than that was to try to flood the network with spammy transactions making the network very slow and ultimately starting to fail. I don't really think that is possible...
Or else They would need to shut off the internet of pull out the power lever all over the world. Do you think the powers that be would be willing to do that just to kill bitcoin? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: ahpku on May 07, 2016, 04:07:06 PM I don't actually think it is possible even for the NSA to control bitcoin. From my understanding, the only way of controlling Bitcoin was to successfully implement a 51% attack, and that this point it would cost trillions of dollars just to do that. You're telling me miners have trillions invested in their gear? :o Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: MingLee on May 07, 2016, 04:14:33 PM I don't actually think it is possible even for the NSA to control bitcoin. From my understanding, the only way of controlling Bitcoin was to successfully implement a 51% attack, and that this point it would cost trillions of dollars just to do that. You're telling me miners have trillions invested in their gear? :o Definitely won't cost a sizeable portion of the US debt though. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: JaneEverycunt on May 07, 2016, 04:49:22 PM ^^USD is a world reserve currency, and NSA can just ask their bankster puppet masters to print up as much as they need right out of thin air?
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BADecker on May 07, 2016, 09:48:07 PM They would borrow huge sums of money from the Federal Reserve Bank, and buy all the bitcoins up.
8) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: chek2fire on May 07, 2016, 11:27:37 PM fork it with Classic...
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BurtW on May 07, 2016, 11:52:10 PM Don't know about the NSA but here is how "Homeland Security" and the "Justice" department do it:
1) Find a person trading Bitcoins 2) Investigate that person for 18 months, get all their bank records, all their text messages (including all the deleted ones) from their cell phone carrier, and try to build a case, even the flimsiest pretense of a case will do 3) Put a tracker on their car and follow all their movements for 45 days to try to locate all their secret stashes of Bitcoins and cash 4) No matter how flimsy a case take it to a rubber stamping grand jury and use the patriot act to get SEALED search warrants, SEALED arrest warrants, and SEALED indictments and be sure to SEAL all the grand jury testimony (SEALED is key here so you can lie all you want to and no one will ever be able to find out what lies you said in order to convince the grand jury you had a case) 5) CRITICAL: make sure the indictment is for a charge which allows civil asset forfeiture to attach 6) Arrest them, take everything of value you can get your grubby hands on: all their personal and business computers, all their Bitcoins and cash, even their daughter’s piggy bank containing her birthday and Christmas gift money 7) Throw them in solitary confinement in a Federal holding facility for a few days to soften them up 8) Offer to let them go and give them their stuff back if they pay a large sum of cash and Bitcoins to the Federal asset forfeiture slush fund 9) Use the money stolen in step 8) to go to step 1), rinse and repeat Read all about it here: http://www.burtw.com http://www.jmwagner.com https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1182005 (and many other threads here on this forum) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: X badapple X on May 08, 2016, 12:15:51 AM Wow, sorry for your loss bro :(
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BurtW on May 08, 2016, 12:21:03 AM Wow, sorry for your loss bro :( Thanks. I am still mad about it as you can imagine.Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Monnt on May 08, 2016, 02:26:38 AM Wow, sorry for your loss bro :( Thanks. I am still mad about it as you can imagine.They actually did that to you? It's pretty harsh. If they let you go, why did they charge you? Ive never heard of anything of the sort. Did you do anything or trade with anyone sketchy? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: youyou_ on May 08, 2016, 02:34:21 AM the story of burtW is f*** sick
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: 27QVUTZj8rgZP1 on May 08, 2016, 02:35:56 AM fork it with Classic... It is plausible and intelligent. Just like the NSA.Go, go, classic! :D Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: ArticMine on May 08, 2016, 02:42:46 AM Flood the network with a large number of transactions to saturate the 1 MB blocksize limit or what ever effective 3.2 MB blocksize limit is implemented. Keep the attack going until people just give up.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: owlcatz on May 08, 2016, 03:01:51 AM Flood the network with a large number of transactions to saturate the 1 MB blocksize limit or what ever effective 3.2 MB blocksize limit is implemented. Keep the attack going until people just give up. In theory sure, but how could they really get away with it, unless resorting to evil tactics, probably illegal. :D Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: coldice on May 08, 2016, 03:07:51 AM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. Your posting reminds me on this: https://www.whitehatsec.com/wp-content/uploads/security.png Right one is the right method to do it in a right way ;D Cheapest and durable. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Viyamore on May 08, 2016, 05:09:57 AM I think they can't do it..many of sites websites they can't handle. Then it will happen it thry will add more peoples who will focus on monitoring bitcoins.also they will need more advancr technology to do it .
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Jeremycoin on May 08, 2016, 05:53:27 AM If they want to do it, they have to control all of the network on the internet. Or they can do it with the other way, by owning >50% of all the Bitcoin which likely not possible.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Enotche on May 08, 2016, 06:55:54 AM I think that this is impossible. After all, then we need to monitor the entire Internet on the planet! As well as purchase all Bitcoins. Or create an attack 51% and it needs a lot of money.
It is worth considering that different countries have different attitudes to Bitcoin, and I think they will have to take into account the views of all these countries so as not to incur the political scandal. P.S There the crazy theory that Bitcoin has created NSA. Satoshi Nakamoto - an anagram "Ma, I took NSA oath". ;D Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: molecular on May 08, 2016, 07:18:59 AM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? What if that infiltration has already happened? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 08, 2016, 08:02:37 AM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? What if that infiltration has already happened? Definitely more than just possible and my question still remains: Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? (The answer is not related to any 51% theory or "destroying" Bitcoin, but to take control over Bitcoin development, edit: though the long time goal can indeed be to destroy Bitcoin "from inside".) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 08, 2016, 08:05:27 AM Some interesting stuff to read:
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/i-m-a-former-green-beret-here-s-how-i-would-bring-down-bitcoin-1456165726 http://cryptohustle.com/is-craig-wright-a-fake-satoshi-and-cyber-intelligence-agent http://shitco.in/2016/05/08/you-can-call-me-wright-craig-wright/ Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: gmaxwell on May 08, 2016, 08:49:10 AM A huge lumbering bureaucracy? How about-- take over the Bitcoin Foundation and then find themselves surprised when it doesn't control Bitcoin.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 08, 2016, 08:55:18 AM Bitcoin reached a point where it can't be stopped anymore so I don't think there is anything to do to kill it or even control it . I mean they can try ... but I don't think they will achieve their goal . (unless the Bitcoin community goes retard and don't care about decentralization and privacy etc... anymore). Look at this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1465013.0 The difficulty will kill Bitcoins. Anyway that is off topic. NSA can not take control over BTC since mining takes place in China....by a few companies that runs the entire system. If I would try to control Bitcoin, I would try to get a majority here: https://bitcoincore.org/en/team, instead of trying some multi billion dollar 51% attack. Once more: https://www.whitehatsec.com/wp-content/uploads/security.png Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 08, 2016, 08:59:05 AM A huge lumbering bureaucracy? How about-- take over the Bitcoin Foundation and then find themselves surprised when it doesn't control Bitcoin. That's just one part of the game. Are you guys from core team discussing this infiltration topic and how to deal with it? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: prettybuds on May 08, 2016, 11:35:29 AM Nobody ever seems to be fond of the idea that the NSA could of course very well have invented the Bitcoin project in the first place. Really why not?
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 08, 2016, 11:51:53 AM Nobody ever seems to be fond of the idea that the NSA could of course very well have invented the Bitcoin project in the first place. Really why not? Most arguments are about "why should they invent an open source project, that could interrupt the banking system?", which is understandable. Shouldn't they protect their system including national banks? I also find it unlikely, but still possible, that Bitcoin was invented by any of the known agencies. In-Q-Tel seems to like Bitcoin for some reason for example. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: pereira4 on May 08, 2016, 11:53:27 AM Well considering that they can't technically do anything against it, they would start passing laws about banning the traffic from all nodes to difficult running the network, they would also try to screw up all exchanges, scary population with big jailtime, a lot of negative propaganda in the news, and have a false satoshi to mold Bitcoin they way they want it to be.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BitconAssociation on May 08, 2016, 12:18:25 PM A huge lumbering bureaucracy? How about-- take over the Bitcoin Foundation and then find themselves surprised when it doesn't control Bitcoin. Ya, they so dum they tried to buy me out for one billion dollars. You no wat I tolded them? I sez 2 them no, keep your filthy fiat toilet paper! Nobody ever seems to be fond of the idea that the NSA could of course very well have invented the Bitcoin project in the first place. Really why not? Most arguments are about "why should they invent an open source project, that could interrupt the banking system?", which is understandable. Shouldn't they protect their system including national banks? Bitcoin would threaten the banking system if: 1. More than a fraction of one percent of the population used it. 2. That fraction of one percent was otherwise productive members of society, not child-like criminals stealing from each other. 3. IRL adults considered Bitcoin to be more sound, as a store of value, than Beanie Babies (which are the REAL threat to the banking system, with NSA spending billions in taxpayer money to discredit Beanie Babies and suppress beanie trade). Oddly enough, those parameters aren't met, so bitscoin is used as a honeypot, corralling the world's most inept criminals into an ecosystem where their shenanigans are monitored on the blogchain and this forum. On computer screens, by a couple of chubby agents who are otherwise useless, too weak and fat to actually be useful in the field, dealin with smart IRL criminals. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BurtW on May 08, 2016, 02:32:16 PM Wow, sorry for your loss bro :( Thanks. I am still mad about it as you can imagine.They actually did that to you? It's pretty harsh. If they let you go, why did they charge you? Ive never heard of anything of the sort. Did you do anything or trade with anyone sketchy? Quote Dear BurtW, We here at Homeland Security and the Justice department noticed that you have started to trade Bitcoins on the web site localbitcoins.com. Contrary to rulings by the IRS we believe that Bitcoins are money. Contrary to all standard definitions of the word "transmittal" we believe that by trading Bitcoins what you are doing could be transmitting money. And finally FinCEN has stated that whether what you are doing is a business or not is a matter of fact and circumstance and we believe what you are doing may constitute a business. Since there is no legal guidelines it would be totally up to a jury to decide if it is a business or not but we believe in our hearts and really feel that it might just possibly be a business. Please note that if a jury could be persuaded to rule in our favor on all three of these points then you would be facing 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. So, we suggest you consult your attorney and see if you need to get a free license from FinCEN in order to trade Bitcoins on localbitcoins.com Also, we would like to discuss with you a very small number of totally unrelated cases where we caught some kids buying drugs with Bitcoins that they just happened to buy from you. This really has nothing to do with you but you might be able to help us in building our case against them. Of course this would be at your discretion an convenience. This is not some third world dictatorship under martial law where we would just arrest you, throw you in solitary confinement and try to strong arm you into helping us and steal your assets to directly fund our departments and operations. Have a great day and thank you, Michele Korver, AUSA Aaron McWirter, special agent, Homeland Security Investigations They charged me in order to extort money and Bitcoins from me. Most people do not care about or hear about the consequences of living under the patriot act (martial law) or living in a country where their money, Bitcoins and other property can be seized, charged in a civil suit, and be considered guilty until they can prove to the authorities that their money, Bitcoins and other property is innocent. If interested please watch this brilliant video which explains civil forfeiture (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks). I traded Bitcoins. The sole charge against me was 18-1960 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1960). They love this regulation because the patriot act applies (they can do everything in secret, lie, etc.) and more importantly civil asset forfeiture applies to this regulation. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: JaneEverycunt on May 08, 2016, 02:39:51 PM Burt, have you thought of moving to Somalia? No intrusive regulations, no civil forfeitures, guns are legal, everyone loves bitcoins and plenty of pirate treasure coves.
Your family would dig it. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BurtW on May 08, 2016, 02:54:49 PM Burt, have you thought of moving to Somalia? No intrusive regulations, no civil forfeitures, guns are legal, everyone loves bitcoins and plenty of pirate treasure coves. This year my daughter's class has an assignment "decide where to reside" where the students were asked to research other places (states or countries) they might want to move to and then make a presentation on the place on why they picked the place, etc. She is taking this assignment very seriously.Your family would dig it. Previously they had an assignment to discuss an important issue and present it to the the class. Most of the other students picked things like "animal cruelty". My daughters presentation was more interesting and you can find a link to it (the first link in the first paragraph) on this page: http://www.jmwagner.com/about.html Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 08, 2016, 03:10:26 PM Nobody ever seems to be fond of the idea that the NSA could of course very well have invented the Bitcoin project in the first place. Really why not? Most arguments are about "why should they invent an open source project, that could interrupt the banking system?" Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: JaneEverycunt on May 08, 2016, 03:38:54 PM Burt, have you thought of moving to Somalia? No intrusive regulations, no civil forfeitures, guns are legal, everyone loves bitcoins and plenty of pirate treasure coves. This year my daughter's class has an assignment "decide where to reside" where the students were asked to research other places (states or countries) they might want to move to and then make a presentation on the place on why they picked the place, etc. She is taking this assignment very seriously.Your family would dig it. Did she pick Somalia, land of the free? Or still thinking? Quote Previously they had an assignment to discuss an important issue and present it to the the class. Most of the other students picked things like "animal cruelty". My daughters presentation was more interesting and you can find a link to it (the first link in the first paragraph) on this page: http://www.jmwagner.com/about.html Err, "Final 4th Grade Presentation on Civil forfeiture.mp4"? Look, I'm again civil forfeiture, it's a scary and often misused thing, but I also know forth graders. If Daddy got jailed for stealing from the collection plate, Jesus would be a berry berry bad man. BTW, consider not begging for donations, that's a bit off-putting. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BurtW on May 08, 2016, 03:47:23 PM Burt, have you thought of moving to Somalia? No intrusive regulations, no civil forfeitures, guns are legal, everyone loves bitcoins and plenty of pirate treasure coves. This year my daughter's class has an assignment "decide where to reside" where the students were asked to research other places (states or countries) they might want to move to and then make a presentation on the place on why they picked the place, etc. She is taking this assignment very seriously.Your family would dig it. Did she pick Somalia, land of the free? Or still thinking? Quote Previously they had an assignment to discuss an important issue and present it to the the class. Most of the other students picked things like "animal cruelty". My daughters presentation was more interesting and you can find a link to it (the first link in the first paragraph) on this page: http://www.jmwagner.com/about.html Err, "Final 4th Grade Presentation on Civil forfeiture.mp4"? Look, I'm again civil forfeiture, it's a scary and often misused thing, but I also know forth graders. If Daddy got jailed for stealing from the collection plate, Jesus would be a berry berry bad man. BTW, consider not begging for donations, that's a bit off-putting. I think that she may have considered Somalia but with all the government corruption, extortion, piracy, etc. she found it too much like the United States so it was taken off the list. You do not know her. She did that presentation on her own. Thanks for watching it. Consider changing your username, it's a bit off-putting. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: ArafaA on May 08, 2016, 03:49:17 PM I think china will control bitcoin soon when they own 99 % of hash-power & mining not NASA
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: SebastianJu on May 08, 2016, 05:18:25 PM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. No, that was what we believed at the start. But it proved to be a valid attack vector to attack bitcoin through it's client. Regardless of what the protocol will look like that will change the ways bitcoin goes. You could attack bitcoin through core devs or through alternative forking clients. It's best to do it both. Yes, bitcoiners could chose, but be honest... most bitcoiners will use what is presented. Only a core of them will chose with some checking before. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 09, 2016, 05:56:19 AM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. No, that was what we believed at the start. But it proved to be a valid attack vector to attack bitcoin through it's client. Regardless of what the protocol will look like that will change the ways bitcoin goes. You could attack bitcoin through core devs or through alternative forking clients. It's best to do it both. Yes, bitcoiners could chose, but be honest... most bitcoiners will use what is presented. Only a core of them will chose with some checking before. I agree. Still I would like to know, if core team has already discussed this infiltration topic. If not ... then why not? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: SebastianJu on May 09, 2016, 06:22:16 PM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. No, that was what we believed at the start. But it proved to be a valid attack vector to attack bitcoin through it's client. Regardless of what the protocol will look like that will change the ways bitcoin goes. You could attack bitcoin through core devs or through alternative forking clients. It's best to do it both. Yes, bitcoiners could chose, but be honest... most bitcoiners will use what is presented. Only a core of them will chose with some checking before. I agree. Still I would like to know, if core team has already discussed this infiltration topic. If not ... then why not? I'm not sure. The dev team was quite hidden for a long time. No real contact with the community. In my eyes that only changed after they wanted to bring out segwit and ln and found that they face a real big opposition. Then they started to argument and speak with the community alot more. Though if you think about it... it does not need to be the NSA to harm the protocol, it can be the real world job of the developers or something similar that would not be allowed if they were politicians. It's not hard to find things that can be questioned. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 09, 2016, 08:08:33 PM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. No, that was what we believed at the start. But it proved to be a valid attack vector to attack bitcoin through it's client. Regardless of what the protocol will look like that will change the ways bitcoin goes. You could attack bitcoin through core devs or through alternative forking clients. It's best to do it both. Yes, bitcoiners could chose, but be honest... most bitcoiners will use what is presented. Only a core of them will chose with some checking before. I agree. Still I would like to know, if core team has already discussed this infiltration topic. If not ... then why not? I'm not sure. The dev team was quite hidden for a long time. No real contact with the community. In my eyes that only changed after they wanted to bring out segwit and ln and found that they face a real big opposition. Then they started to argument and speak with the community alot more. Though if you think about it... it does not need to be the NSA to harm the protocol, it can be the real world job of the developers or something similar that would not be allowed if they were politicians. It's not hard to find things that can be questioned. gmaxwell made a posting here implying the infiltration of the Bitcoin Foundation, but he didn't answer if this topic (infiltration of core team) has been discussed by core devs already. Though I agree, that it doesn't necessarily need some national agency to write bad code :D Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BlueTemplar on May 09, 2016, 09:26:51 PM Well, in their view it is not a big enough threat to attack and spend millions on gaining a majority of the hashing power. Once it is determined to be a threat it will be too large for them to buy their way in to control. Plus the second they gain control is when all of the money floods out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto. That is the beauty of it, we are not forced in to using the currency so attacking it results in wasted money as the users move out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto-currency.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: SebastianJu on May 09, 2016, 09:38:39 PM Well, in their view it is not a big enough threat to attack and spend millions on gaining a majority of the hashing power. Once it is determined to be a threat it will be too large for them to buy their way in to control. Plus the second they gain control is when all of the money floods out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto. That is the beauty of it, we are not forced in to using the currency so attacking it results in wasted money as the users move out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto-currency. The agencies would have an interest to make bitcoin big. They can use it for their own operations if needed and they can follow the trail of the money. Since everyone know that, for example the nsa, controls the internet traffic of whole countries. So it would be not really hard to fight terrorism and similar things like that. Well, pushing in bad code that is not found might be another nice gimmick but so far I think it was not successfull. Too many observe things closely. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: X badapple X on May 09, 2016, 10:08:48 PM Plus the second they gain control is when all of the money floods out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto. For money to "flood out," there'd have to be buyers, no? Who'd be interested in buying into a NSA property? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Wendigo on May 09, 2016, 10:39:55 PM NSA or any other agency won't gain anything by destroying Bitcoin because it's not a threat to the national security of any country right now and I don't think it will be any time soon. Plus Bitcoin is open-source right? So any tampering with the source code or placing backdoors would be easily noticed wouldn't it?
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 10, 2016, 04:28:02 AM NSA or any other agency won't gain anything by destroying Bitcoin because it's not a threat to the national security of any country right now and I don't think it will be any time soon. Plus Bitcoin is open-source right? So any tampering with the source code or placing backdoors would be easily noticed wouldn't it? You really think, that a currency, that is openly competing against the USD and the banking system (and any other fiat) is not a thread? Not even after the USG has shutdown the Paypal account of Wikileaks and they started to accept Bitcoin afterwards? Not even after the SilkRoad case? Check this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1462981.msg14768412#msg14768412 Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Bit_Happy on May 10, 2016, 04:32:08 AM IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it?
They would create a group of coders with the secret code name "SATOSHI" and (pretending to be a 'libertarian') release the code in 2009..... lol? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 10, 2016, 05:17:24 AM Well, in their view it is not a big enough threat to attack and spend millions on gaining a majority of the hashing power. Once it is determined to be a threat it will be too large for them to buy their way in to control. Plus the second they gain control is when all of the money floods out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto. That is the beauty of it, we are not forced in to using the currency so attacking it results in wasted money as the users move out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto-currency. You make the 3 letter guys look like idiots. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 10, 2016, 05:21:01 AM Well, in their view it is not a big enough threat to attack and spend millions on gaining a majority of the hashing power. Once it is determined to be a threat it will be too large for them to buy their way in to control. Plus the second they gain control is when all of the money floods out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto. That is the beauty of it, we are not forced in to using the currency so attacking it results in wasted money as the users move out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto-currency. The agencies would have an interest to make bitcoin big. They can use it for their own operations if needed and they can follow the trail of the money. Since everyone know that, for example the nsa, controls the internet traffic of whole countries. So it would be not really hard to fight terrorism and similar things like that. Well, pushing in bad code that is not found might be another nice gimmick but so far I think it was not successfull. Too many observe things closely. The idea of inserting "bad code" under the eyes of everyone is not new: +1 because thanks to Gavn, we have a scenario, where exacty this reverse exploit could be implemented. Please core devs: Don't let it happen! http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/02/04/challenge-vulnerable-code.aspx http://www.underhanded-c.org/_p_26.html Quote This challenge appeared on an internal alias dedicated to C++. It was issued by Mike Vine, a developer here at Microsoft who agreed to let us share it with the mighty Visual C++ blog readers: This challenge came from me thinking about a simple bug which could be turned into a security vulnerability, so I thought I’d give it a go and try to code a plausibly deniable piece of code which looks innocent but is actually dangerous. I managed to actually go further than that, and produced something, that whilst unlikely, could possibly have come from non-malicious but sloppy coding. So your challenge is – if you choose to accept it – analyze the sample code file “main.c” (attached) and try to find the (fairly obvious) security faux pas and ‘accidental’ bug which causes the security faux pas to be exploitable. Quote The 7th Underhanded C Contest is now open. The goal of the contest is to write code that is as readable, clear, innocent and straightforward as possible, and yet it must fail to perform at its apparent function. To be more specific, it should do something subtly evil. Every year, we will propose a challenge to coders to solve a simple data processing problem, but with covert malicious behavior. Examples include miscounting votes, shaving money from financial transactions, or leaking information to an eavesdropper. The main goal, however, is to write source code that easily passes visual inspection by other programmers. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: SebastianJu on May 10, 2016, 05:55:13 PM NSA or any other agency won't gain anything by destroying Bitcoin because it's not a threat to the national security of any country right now and I don't think it will be any time soon. Plus Bitcoin is open-source right? So any tampering with the source code or placing backdoors would be easily noticed wouldn't it? The NSA works for the interest of the USA. Which means theoretically the USA would need the control over their money because controlling it gives power over the economy. If someone would take this out of their hands then be sure that they would fight really hard. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 11, 2016, 07:13:21 AM Amir Taaki is back:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4is23k/two_posts_by_amir_taaki_about_gavin_may_8_2016/ Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: DimensionZ on May 11, 2016, 12:18:00 PM I agree that if the price of Bitcoin gets huge at some point in the future the NSA or other agency may try to intervene and take control of the Bitcoin network in the name of the US government. But doesn't the strength of Bitcoin depend on its user base? So if people can see that someone is trying to disrupt the Bitcoin network everyone will pull out of the crypto and its value will plummet in hours. What is the US government going to do with a defunct crypto coin then?
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Blacula X on May 11, 2016, 12:34:33 PM ... So if people can see that someone is trying to disrupt the Bitcoin network everyone will pull out of the crypto and its value will plummet in hours. For anyone to "pull out," there must be someone to "pull in." How are you going to sell coins that no one wants to buy? And to whom? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: centralbanksequalsbombs on May 16, 2017, 10:15:24 PM Well, in their view it is not a big enough threat to attack and spend millions on gaining a majority of the hashing power. Once it is determined to be a threat it will be too large for them to buy their way in to control. Plus the second they gain control is when all of the money floods out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto. That is the beauty of it, we are not forced in to using the currency so attacking it results in wasted money as the users move out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto-currency. The agencies would have an interest to make bitcoin big. They can use it for their own operations if needed and they can follow the trail of the money. Since everyone know that, for example the nsa, controls the internet traffic of whole countries. So it would be not really hard to fight terrorism and similar things like that. Well, pushing in bad code that is not found might be another nice gimmick but so far I think it was not successfull. Too many observe things closely. The idea of inserting "bad code" under the eyes of everyone is not new: +1 because thanks to Gavn, we have a scenario, where exacty this reverse exploit could be implemented. Please core devs: Don't let it happen! http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/02/04/challenge-vulnerable-code.aspx http://www.underhanded-c.org/_p_26.html Quote This challenge appeared on an internal alias dedicated to C++. It was issued by Mike Vine, a developer here at Microsoft who agreed to let us share it with the mighty Visual C++ blog readers: This challenge came from me thinking about a simple bug which could be turned into a security vulnerability, so I thought I’d give it a go and try to code a plausibly deniable piece of code which looks innocent but is actually dangerous. I managed to actually go further than that, and produced something, that whilst unlikely, could possibly have come from non-malicious but sloppy coding. So your challenge is – if you choose to accept it – analyze the sample code file “main.c” (attached) and try to find the (fairly obvious) security faux pas and ‘accidental’ bug which causes the security faux pas to be exploitable. Quote The 7th Underhanded C Contest is now open. The goal of the contest is to write code that is as readable, clear, innocent and straightforward as possible, and yet it must fail to perform at its apparent function. To be more specific, it should do something subtly evil. Every year, we will propose a challenge to coders to solve a simple data processing problem, but with covert malicious behavior. Examples include miscounting votes, shaving money from financial transactions, or leaking information to an eavesdropper. The main goal, however, is to write source code that easily passes visual inspection by other programmers. Your posts and questions you pose to the community here are invaluable and hope to see more in the future. Unless if you are me, are you me? Then I guess I would need to post...Or are you Satoshi? ;) anyways thank you for finding my post and commenting, good to know old-timers are paying attention in the forums. (re my post: "Hacks Puppets and Forks: How to destory bitcoin") https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1834310.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1834310.0) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: dinofelis on May 17, 2017, 12:10:46 PM It is extremely easy for any big central bank to take over any collectible. The only thing that is needed, is that there's a legal frame in which the central bank is allowed to buy said asset as a backing. Central banks are fairly restricted in the kinds of assets they may buy up to deliver printed fiat, but if bitcoin is part of that list, then that central bank can just print as much money as needed to buy up the stash of bitcoin it needs. The reason for that is that the more bitcoin is worth, the that banks' backing allows it to print money to buy it.
As such, that central bank can pump up the price of said asset sky high, and print the necessary money to buy whatever it needs without real economic costs. In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply. Once she's done that, slowly enough for enough OTHER people to buy a fair amount of bitcoin, she dumps it like crazy, crashes the market, and makes all those invested in it totally burned. If that didn't cut it, rinse and repeat. Central banks cannot do this to other currencies, because other currencies are elastic too and cannot be cornered. But collectibles are easily cornered by a central bank. As long as a central bank is not legally allowed to buy coins, it cannot happen, but once an asset is declared suitable as a backing for a central bank, she can totally master the asset (unless she enters in competition with a foreign central bank doing the same of course). Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 17, 2017, 01:26:26 PM In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply. Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: dinofelis on May 17, 2017, 03:05:00 PM In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply. Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet? Not banks. Central banks. Well, first of all they should have a motivation - I was just answering the OP. But they also should be legally allowed to do so (that is, have bitcoin on the list of assets they can buy, like they can buy gold, and certain securities). I don't think any big central bank is allowed to emit money against bitcoin yet. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 17, 2017, 03:29:19 PM Page 8 and no plausible method.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: GetClams.com on May 17, 2017, 03:45:11 PM NSA or any other agency won't gain anything by destroying Bitcoin because it's not a threat to the national security of any country right now and I don't think it will be any time soon. Plus Bitcoin is open-source right? So any tampering with the source code or placing backdoors would be easily noticed wouldn't it? Abslutley! it would be an exercise in futility for any government to try and manipulate bitcoin. The genie is out of the bottle nad now we are in control. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 17, 2017, 05:30:58 PM In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply. Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet? Not banks. Central banks. Well, first of all they should have a motivation - I was just answering the OP. But they also should be legally allowed to do so (that is, have bitcoin on the list of assets they can buy, like they can buy gold, and certain securities). I don't think any big central bank is allowed to emit money against bitcoin yet. You don't have any bank experience, do you? Banks never do that directly. Instead they'll give credit line to a company that will do what they want be done. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: kelseydustin on May 17, 2017, 05:42:52 PM Do not ask that silly question, no one can take over control Bitcoin because it is based on the decentralized system. And as you know, the Chinese are trying to do that job but the results still remain zero. Bitcoin will still a symbol for freedom
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: dinofelis on May 18, 2017, 07:24:18 AM In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply. Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet? Not banks. Central banks. Well, first of all they should have a motivation - I was just answering the OP. But they also should be legally allowed to do so (that is, have bitcoin on the list of assets they can buy, like they can buy gold, and certain securities). I don't think any big central bank is allowed to emit money against bitcoin yet. You don't have any bank experience, do you? Banks never do that directly. Instead they'll give credit line to a company that will do what they want be done. I was talking the way central banks manipulate the gold market. Bitcoin is similar. It is a collectible. Normal banks can't do that, because they would put themselves at risk with respect to other banks. Only central banks can do so, if their rules allow it. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: classicsucks on May 18, 2017, 09:02:44 AM NSA wouldn't try to destroy/attack bitcoin overtly. As others have said, if bitcoin broke overnight, everyone would just move to altcoin X. The NSA's goal would likely be to subvert cryptocurrency as a whole and make it difficult/impractical/dangerous for people to use.
NSA would definitely implement systems that track and trace all transactions and associate them with real people, and they likely already have done this. "Full take" electronic surveillance would be mandatory on a couple of key players/investors in the space, and likely is in place. NSA would definitely place a few "assets" in the dev teams and mining community, and they likely already have done this. NSA could even have a few spokespeople advocating a wrong path forward (for example that Blockstream "Johnny" guy who came out of nowhere looks fishy to me...). I would be very surprised if NSA didn't have at least 4 assets at various levels inside Blockstream. Often times, people don't even know that they are working for the NSA, because they have a "handler" who mediates between the agency and the employee. NSA is likely recruiting top CS grads and encryption experts from MIT, Stanford, and Caltech, and CMU - same as always. Cornering the BTC market wouldn't be that tough - when big banks are buying up coin, they can prevent huge price spikes by naked shorting. Which is what they do with gold and silver. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: becoin on May 18, 2017, 10:57:32 AM Cornering the BTC market wouldn't be that tough - when big banks are buying up coin, they can prevent huge price spikes by naked shorting. Which is what they do with gold and silver. You definitely don't know what're you talking about. Cornering gold and silver market is possible because "rehypothecation" is used. One and the same physical metal is "re-pledged" as collateral. Thus, one and the same physical gold or silver has many "owners" without those owners being aware that there are other owners as well. This is not possible with bitcoin! The owner is the one that has the privkey! Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: ImHash on May 18, 2017, 12:24:03 PM Page 8 and no plausible method. Already done it while you were sleep, look how they got to BitMain which is a large miner manufacturer and till now they are pushing for a take over.Only thing users can do is to hold their coins and don't sell so cheap and if they sell make sure they're selling to ordinary people like themselves. When you tell people that bitcoin is the real deal and a game changer they just see what's in front of them which is the market and price fluctuations and greedy miners, they lack the ability to jump out of the orbit to see for themselves that sun light is not yellow and is white. selling bitcoin is equal to giving away a diamond thinking it's only made from carbon and we have lots of carbon on earth. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 18, 2017, 01:41:08 PM Page 8 and no plausible method. Already done it while you were sleep, look how they got to BitMain which is a large miner manufacturer and till now they are pushing for a take over.Only thing users can do is to hold their coins and don't sell so cheap and if they sell make sure they're selling to ordinary people like themselves. When you tell people that bitcoin is the real deal and a game changer they just see what's in front of them which is the market and price fluctuations and greedy miners, they lack the ability to jump out of the orbit to see for themselves that sun light is not yellow and is white. selling bitcoin is equal to giving away a diamond thinking it's only made from carbon and we have lots of carbon on earth. When you say "they got to BitMain". Who do you mean? And how were they gotten? They seem to up and running. https://bitmain.com/ I know they have been involved in scandals, but that has no more to do with bitcoin than dollars have to do with a bank robbery. To defeat bitcoin one has to defeat the protocol. Going after people for cheating on taxes or scamming others is a different issue. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: keenme on May 18, 2017, 01:55:59 PM Impossible, they can't, BTC is not traceable, anonymous point to point transactions, they can not trace to the whereabouts of BTC ;D ;)
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: iluvpie60 on May 18, 2017, 01:56:36 PM Good point on the NSA infiltrating the dev team. That may be why we see so much nonsense from them lately. So much FUD being spouted by devs and longtime bitcoin industry people. Seems a lot have been compromised.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BillyBobZorton on May 18, 2017, 03:07:36 PM Easy:
1) Start a plan to centralize nodes 2) Sell to people that it's better to sacrifice node decentralization in order to buy coffees on chain 3) Give 100% power to miners via BUcoin type clients that give them all the power over blocksize and get rid of any possibilities of user rebelion against miners via UASF 4) Bitcoin's most important property (bitcoin as decentralized gold) is now over 5) Governments now control transactions due having control over easily bribeable datacenters that run both nodes and miners. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: classicsucks on May 18, 2017, 06:35:29 PM Cornering the BTC market wouldn't be that tough - when big banks are buying up coin, they can prevent huge price spikes by naked shorting. Which is what they do with gold and silver. You definitely don't know what're you talking about. Cornering gold and silver market is possible because "rehypothecation" is used. One and the same physical metal is "re-pledged" as collateral. Thus, one and the same physical gold or silver has many "owners" without those owners being aware that there are other owners as well. This is not possible with bitcoin! The owner is the one that has the privkey! Uhh, have you ever heard of bitcoin EXCHANGES? As in, the places that produce 95% of crypto volume? What makes you think any privkeys are necessary on exchanges? Coins on an exchange are almost more abstract than an electronic balance statement at a bank, this has been proven each time another exchange vanishes into thin air with everyone's coin. In the case of Mt Gox, the coins people thought they held were probably never there... Mark was just shuffling around his little Excel spreadsheet and collecting bux. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Joe_Bauers on May 18, 2017, 06:48:44 PM IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it?
I'm guessing they would publicly release their collision attack for SHA-2 ;) Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: SwagGirl on May 18, 2017, 07:09:34 PM If it got out that the CIA is trying to undermine bitcoin, i think it would drive the price up. From free advertising to making more people curious it would definitely go up.
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Ucy on May 18, 2017, 09:03:55 PM It seems to be difficult for them to attack and control Bitcoin from the technical vector.Many nerds are in the crypto space who are also very cautious and paranoid. The only real serious attack vector I see left is social engineering and infiltration.And I'm sure we already see this happening.Maybe not coming from the NSA but the once in power of the financial industry. Just have a look how many trolls and anti bitcoin shills are flooding in here, coordinated at certain events or times.FUD, divide and conquer and so on. This is no coincidence! Bitcoin is a becoming a serious threat to so many industries that they will try everything they can do to stop it. Killing is no option imo.Even if they try to make it look like an accident.This will make the ones who died become martyr. The reaction to this is would be that coders continue working from underground and more and more supporting them. An obvious open attack will not work.Therefore they will try it over the sneaky bastardized way (this for instance includes planting crimes on devs, threat, bribe, FUD, divide and conquer). Love this! OP definitely underrated human capacity to be resilient. Bitcoin would've being history if it were that easy to destroy. The hate toward Crypto by Politicians, Fascists & security agency is hugh but I guarantee they wouldn't be able to match the intellectual capability of personalities that really like the crypto concept. Even if they successful hire nerds it will hard to convinced those nerds to destroy Bitcoin unless they're completely brainwashed or lied to Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: SwagGirl on May 18, 2017, 11:07:15 PM It seems to be difficult for them to attack and control Bitcoin from the technical vector.Many nerds are in the crypto space who are also very cautious and paranoid. The only real serious attack vector I see left is social engineering and infiltration.And I'm sure we already see this happening.Maybe not coming from the NSA but the once in power of the financial industry. Just have a look how many trolls and anti bitcoin shills are flooding in here, coordinated at certain events or times.FUD, divide and conquer and so on. This is no coincidence! Bitcoin is a becoming a serious threat to so many industries that they will try everything they can do to stop it. Killing is no option imo.Even if they try to make it look like an accident.This will make the ones who died become martyr. The reaction to this is would be that coders continue working from underground and more and more supporting them. An obvious open attack will not work.Therefore they will try it over the sneaky bastardized way (this for instance includes planting crimes on devs, threat, bribe, FUD, divide and conquer). If you dont killing is an option, ask Hitler Clinton. Shes got 100's of dead bodies connected to her. That said, they still could not take bitcoin down. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: spoon-bender on May 19, 2017, 01:09:55 AM Any NSA takeover of bitcoin begins and ends with the plot of Superman III. Q.E.D
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Sadlife on May 19, 2017, 01:19:49 AM If this is true then the whole conspiracy theories about the core group being owned by bankers is just an a delusion we are so afraid to implement segwit because we believe in the lie that blockstream is centralized.
NSA might need more hash power to implement 51% attack in the past BU had that power but they didn't do it i wonder why. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 19, 2017, 02:37:32 PM Easy: That's a lot of if1) Start a plan to centralize nodes 2) Sell to people that it's better to sacrifice node decentralization in order to buy coffees on chain 3) Give 100% power to miners via BUcoin type clients that give them all the power over blocksize and get rid of any possibilities of user rebelion against miners via UASF 4) Bitcoin's most important property (bitcoin as decentralized gold) is now over 5) Governments now control transactions due having control over easily bribeable datacenters that run both nodes and miners. 1) centralized node? On a decentralized network? Centralizing nodes would require a hard fork that must be agreed to by an overwhelming majority of nodes worldwide. Why would the entire world do that? 2) That may happen organically? Some think this now and have created thousands of alts to address it. The NSA would just be alt #7453. Good luck competing though. 3) No one on Earth has the authority/ability to do that in the protocol. It would require a hard fork to a fundamentally different system that we would all have to adopt. Have you ever met a bitcoin user that would agree to that, much less a super-majority? 4) I don't know what that means? It's over because someone said it? well in that case, war poverty and death are now over! I command it! 5) wow, this is going to be expensive. The US government is going to spend billions bribing miners all over thee planet to... wait why are they doing this? Where is the money going to come from? It is illegal for the us to pay bribes, so this will require an entire secret bureaucracy willing to go to jail for no apparent gain. They will need to operate in almost every country on Earth and be 100% successful. How long do we do this, forever? What happens when I refuse to be bribed and set up a mine? It is just not feasible, practical, likely to succeed, cost effective, or lawful. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on May 19, 2017, 05:24:37 PM Easy: That's a lot of if1) Start a plan to centralize nodes 2) Sell to people that it's better to sacrifice node decentralization in order to buy coffees on chain 3) Give 100% power to miners via BUcoin type clients that give them all the power over blocksize and get rid of any possibilities of user rebelion against miners via UASF 4) Bitcoin's most important property (bitcoin as decentralized gold) is now over 5) Governments now control transactions due having control over easily bribeable datacenters that run both nodes and miners. 1) centralized node? On a decentralized network? Centralizing nodes would require a hard fork that must be agreed to by an overwhelming majority of nodes worldwide. Why would the entire world do that? 2) That may happen organically? Some think this now and have created thousands of alts to address it. The NSA would just be alt #7453. Good luck competing though. 3) No one on Earth has the authority/ability to do that in the protocol. It would require a hard fork to a fundamentally different system that we would all have to adopt. Have you ever met a bitcoin user that would agree to that, much less a super-majority? 4) I don't know what that means? It's over because someone said it? well in that case, war poverty and death are now over! I command it! 5) wow, this is going to be expensive. The US government is going to spend billions bribing miners all over thee planet to... wait why are they doing this? Where is the money going to come from? It is illegal for the us to pay bribes, so this will require an entire secret bureaucracy willing to go to jail for no apparent gain. They will need to operate in almost every country on Earth and be 100% successful. How long do we do this, forever? What happens when I refuse to be bribed and set up a mine? It is just not feasible, practical, likely to succeed, cost effective, or lawful. Hi RodeoX. The question is not, if it is possible to take control over Bitcoin, but what they would try to do to achieve this goal. Judging from quotes I read from the IMF, they are pretty aware, that "Cryptocurrencies" (Ms Lagarte avoided spelling the evil name "Bitcoin") can lead to a loss of control over the international cash flow. From there it is just a small step to put up a meeting with some important guys with the topic "How can we stop this Bitcoin thing if it gets too big?" What would be suggested on this table? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: RodeoX on May 25, 2017, 05:30:40 PM Easy: That's a lot of if1) Start a plan to centralize nodes 2) Sell to people that it's better to sacrifice node decentralization in order to buy coffees on chain 3) Give 100% power to miners via BUcoin type clients that give them all the power over blocksize and get rid of any possibilities of user rebelion against miners via UASF 4) Bitcoin's most important property (bitcoin as decentralized gold) is now over 5) Governments now control transactions due having control over easily bribeable datacenters that run both nodes and miners. 1) centralized node? On a decentralized network? Centralizing nodes would require a hard fork that must be agreed to by an overwhelming majority of nodes worldwide. Why would the entire world do that? 2) That may happen organically? Some think this now and have created thousands of alts to address it. The NSA would just be alt #7453. Good luck competing though. 3) No one on Earth has the authority/ability to do that in the protocol. It would require a hard fork to a fundamentally different system that we would all have to adopt. Have you ever met a bitcoin user that would agree to that, much less a super-majority? 4) I don't know what that means? It's over because someone said it? well in that case, war poverty and death are now over! I command it! 5) wow, this is going to be expensive. The US government is going to spend billions bribing miners all over thee planet to... wait why are they doing this? Where is the money going to come from? It is illegal for the us to pay bribes, so this will require an entire secret bureaucracy willing to go to jail for no apparent gain. They will need to operate in almost every country on Earth and be 100% successful. How long do we do this, forever? What happens when I refuse to be bribed and set up a mine? It is just not feasible, practical, likely to succeed, cost effective, or lawful. Hi RodeoX. The question is not, if it is possible to take control over Bitcoin, but what they would try to do to achieve this goal. Judging from quotes I read from the IMF, they are pretty aware, that "Cryptocurrencies" (Ms Lagarte avoided spelling the evil name "Bitcoin") can lead to a loss of control over the international cash flow. From there it is just a small step to put up a meeting with some important guys with the topic "How can we stop this Bitcoin thing if it gets too big?" What would be suggested on this table? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: AGD on January 07, 2018, 10:37:48 AM +1 because it is more and more becoming the ugly truth
Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: classicsucks on January 07, 2018, 11:00:00 AM Ah, well then I guess someone would suggest those things. But I see no path to a takeover yet. Although I would love to see banks lose a billion dollars trying. +1 because that could be exactly what's happening in the BTC futures markets right now - if they're able to short BTC down below $10k, then I think we'll see abandonment of the BTC Kore chain. In which case Bitcoin Cash assumes the lead position. And Wall St. is left bagholding! Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: sirkings0003 on January 07, 2018, 11:54:35 AM Some ideas on how it could work: This is a very necessary precaution of which i support. There is a possibility that this is already on going. Even though it is going to be a difficult task to take down cryptocurrency entirely, precautions are necessary.- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BurtW on January 07, 2018, 01:41:58 PM Ah, well then I guess someone would suggest those things. But I see no path to a takeover yet. Although I would love to see banks lose a billion dollars trying. +1 because that could be exactly what's happening in the BTC futures markets right now - if they're able to short BTC down below $10k, then I think we'll see abandonment of the BTC Kore chain. In which case Bitcoin Cash assumes the lead position. And Wall St. is left bagholding! Exactly how would that work? Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BlackRacerX on January 07, 2018, 02:01:06 PM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? As crazy as it may sound, the NSA can send a giant computer virus that will target the blockchain. Bitcoins need the blockchain, so when the blockchain is in jeopardy, then the NSA got us on our balls. But this will definitely take a couple of years to do so as of now, we can take advantage of bitcoins. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: BurtW on January 07, 2018, 02:05:42 PM Some ideas on how it could work: - Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? As crazy as it may sound, the NSA can send a giant computer virus that will target the blockchain. Bitcoins need the blockchain, so when the blockchain is in jeopardy, then the NSA got us on our balls. But this will definitely take a couple of years to do so as of now, we can take advantage of bitcoins. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: noictib on January 08, 2018, 09:35:42 AM Some ideas on how it could work: This is really a big question for the big authorities , And also we knows that already many countries like Japan has big success in technology and they are able to make more control ( stop or make it garbage) but still they just regulated it by imposing tax on the buy sell of Bitcoin , so we can make ourself sure that it is 99% impossible for anyone to stop it by technology , even if any government may ban through ip but can't ban through vpn services use .- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge - Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff - Discredit respected members of the community - Kill people, if they don't corporate. Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid? And also here we should see towards the humanity that money doesn't have more importance than what people's life have , so they can't kill people to use Bitcoin . So here we can say there is currently no chance for them to control over btc . Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: Coin12 on January 08, 2018, 09:40:36 AM They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins. I also think is not possible to control bitcoin. How they can have more than 51% of hash power of mining? However, like in the thread above, why they to kill people because they just want control bitcoin? Is NSA bad company? Confusing. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: classicsucks on January 09, 2018, 01:02:06 AM Ah, well then I guess someone would suggest those things. But I see no path to a takeover yet. Although I would love to see banks lose a billion dollars trying. +1 because that could be exactly what's happening in the BTC futures markets right now - if they're able to short BTC down below $10k, then I think we'll see abandonment of the BTC Kore chain. In which case Bitcoin Cash assumes the lead position. And Wall St. is left bagholding! Exactly how would that work? Nothing that complicated really. The mainstream sources I read said that the futures market would correct an imbalance in the markets because buying BTC was easier than selling. Currently they say that the futures markets have a short bias. That would mean (in theory) that the BTC/fiat price would be going down, which it has. If the futures markets allow naked shorting, then the price will really drop. This is just from a conventional financial markets perspective. If you throw in all of the "funbux" Tether tokens and other blatant market rigging, then you've really got a recipe for price drops. Alternately, Bitfinex could just keep pumping up the price with Tethers etc. Pretty soon I think we'll see a clash between the market participants as BTC dominance and use cases continue to plummet. Title: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: obinine on January 18, 2018, 03:18:50 AM Page 8 and no plausible method. Unless they some how find a hack to break into the blockchain and duplicate bitcoin or somehow excecute a 51% attack there’s no way they’re pulling off anything lolTitle: Re: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? Post by: morrisby25 on January 18, 2018, 03:58:06 AM NSA or any other agency won't gain anything by destroying Bitcoin because it's not a threat to the national security of any country right now and I don't think it will be any time soon. Plus Bitcoin is open-source right? So any tampering with the source code or placing backdoors would be easily noticed wouldn't it? Abslutley! it would be an exercise in futility for any government to try and manipulate bitcoin. The genie is out of the bottle nad now we are in control. |
