Bitcoin Forum

That was the goal but take a look at this forum and how monetary value drives most discussion in the context of investment. For some reason the new wave of people would rather hand bitcoin over to be regulated so they can profit and get out.
To answer your question I believe it was designed that way and should have progressed to that ideology.
The rebuttal will be that bitcoin is open and therefore whatever direction it goes is the way it goes.
But I think we have plenty of interest groups hijacking what could have been a good shakeup to the system.

It came at a time when the world is about to step into a new stage of regulate and stifle.
These trade agreements will strip us down and most likely restrict movement,so enjoy the last days of what we call freedom.

I don't agree with this. Bitcoin is a prime example of people thinking out of box. Bitcoin seems to have both positive and negative impression on society. People long ago and for many times predicted the death of bitcoin but it still exist today. If ever bitcoins totally fail, The fight between regulation and freedom will exist.

I don't agree with this. Bitcoin is a prime example of people thinking out of box. Bitcoin seems to have both positive and negative impression on society. People long ago and for many times predicted the death of bitcoin but it still exist today. If ever bitcoins totally fail, The fight between regulation and freedom will exist.

Take a look at what is driving this forum,loans,signatures,escrow,gambling,account sales and investment based products. Compared to how many posts to live off the grid,be self sufficient,live without banks or even counter views on keeping bitcoin unregulated!
Its very clear the way it is going,at least on this forum that profit drives bitcoin rather than world wide change.

Come on. The majority of the people in the world want a government... a state.

They are trying to be like a wife with her husband. They say to the government, "You be the government, but do it our way."

8)

When did you last time checkout Voter Turnout Stats worldwide?

Are you really asking if people pay taxes?    8)

Voter turnout is the percentage of eligible voters who cast a ballot in an election.  After increasing for many decades, there has been a trend of decreasing voter turnout in most established democracies since the 1980s. So ask yourself again: do majority of the people in the world want a government?

The only thing that gives a government strength is taxation. If people didn't want government, they would stop paying taxes.

If you don't pay your taxes, you go to the jail. This is why people pay it. It wasn't about that they want government. They don't want to go to jail. That's it.

I'm guessing that this is why they don't vote. They somehow can't ever seem to vote taxes away.

Thank Goodness that in the U.S. you can fill out your Form W-4 n/a (non-assumpsit) EXEMPT, and stop paying. If you file any tax return, you would do the same in all the places where numbers are required. It works. I do it (the W-4. I don't file tax forms.). Non-assumpsit, Signature.

8)

You're joking, right? Why the all people still paying taxes if such an option exist for them?

It's difficult to imagine a stateless society, but there are plenty of stateless people. Guys like me who have left their native country, with no plan to go back, and no desire to become a citizen in any other place. BTC is made for us.

Do you think that BTC is designed for stateless societies?

We all know that almost all world governments use paper money to maintain its power. They are controlling inflation and deflation cycles by just printing more fiat.

So, will BTC really survive in an environment where all the world governments survivability depends on paper money?

I am not sure what you mean by a stateless society, could you specify your question?

It's difficult to imagine a stateless society, but there are plenty of stateless people. Guys like me who have left their native country, with no plan to go back, and no desire to become a citizen in any other place. BTC is made for us.

Great words! I wish I can be a stateless person one time. That's giving you a very good feeling of freedom I guess.

Although most of us are not stateless people at least we have stateless money.  )

I see you say this and I always wonder what the plan is for old age?
Not bashing the life style just curious how that will work out in the long run.

You just need to save money for retirement. That's what most people do except in communist countries. I guess I'll travel a bit less, but I'm addicted to it. I get bored when I'm staying more than a month in the same place.

But you would be smart to save your money in the form of fertile land that has its own source of good water. Other than a few thousand in cash, cash savings are ridiculous.

8)

society without state is not possible. similarly bitcoin also need a recognition. it will be very nice if the states legalize the bitcion. then we can say that it will really become a universal currency.

You should start a blog countryfree,I would be interested to see the issues you struggle with day to day.
Its funny last night I did a search for living off the grid,from time to time I romanticize trying it.
Lot more people doing this then I was expecting and always presumed people ended up in Asia or South America to extend their money flow but seems to be a lot of people doing it just outside of towns.

Have a cabin on a lake and I often think about getting away for a winter even though it would be damned cold,just to refocus on whats important.

I don't struggle!
I've thought many times about selling some knowledge I have that few people possess, but it certainly won't be a blog where everything would be free to read.

I don't struggle!
I've thought many times about selling some knowledge I have that few people possess, but it certainly won't be a blog where everything would be free to read.

Blogs are the way a lot of people get a business going,take that 4 hour work week guy and his books. He used his blog as a launching pad and never looked back. Its pretty similar if you have a whole wack of tricks to navigate on the cheap through Europe.
Think of all the kids wanting to do Europe as their first vacation trip,they would definitely be looking into those concepts.

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

8)

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

I thought you are a stateless person as Stateless ex-American Mike Gogulski currently living in Slovakia. Now I realize you are not. You have a citizenship from some country and also have a passport. And with this passport you can invest real estate in Europe. But in this thread we are talking about stateless people and usage of BTC as a stateless person like Mike Gogulski and some 10k other people. So you are not fitting in this category. But anyway thanks for your input and we are keen to listen your own experiences on the field of profitable real estate investment in the European region in another thread, maybe you can start one of it.

However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

8)

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.

They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    8)

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).

TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."
8)

Not very sure of that what you're trying to prove. I know it can be easy to set up a trust, but the question which matters is what you can do with it. There are more than 200 countries in this world, and such a trust would have some us in only a handful. Even in the UK, you go to HSBC trying to open an account with a trust like your example, and I doubt they will accept you as a customer.

Things are not easy. Countries make everything difficult.

Did you miss the part where I said, "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"

I very precisely answered that point. With all the AML and KYC regulations we have nowadays, you may try to open a bank account for a trust but if the person in charge, or the shareholders, are not fully identified legal residents in the country, the bank will politely say that it doesn't want to do business with you, and that will be the end of the discussion.

Well, I never said it would be easy. But who might be disagreeing with you? Certainly not me.

You sound like you understand the English language. So, did you miss the part where I DIDN'T say anything about the banks opening an account for the trust?

8)

Well, I guess it isn't going anywhere.
Your words: "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"
And mine in a more precise way: it makes no difference if you want to open a bank account for a trust or a company-owned trust. It's the same thing, only with an extra level added.

Back to the subject, I don't think a trust could be of any use in a stateless society.

There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.

For 99.8% of human history people lived exclusively in autonomous bands and villages. What were they?

Some bitcointalkers like ObscureBean venerate the State as the apotheosis of society

They were states, societies, families, friends, and religious activists.

8)

I guess we have to define state and society. I believe there could be a society without a state, I may even believe that I believe in one. I hate the state in the sense that I hate bureaucracy, being told what to do and how to do it, or the fact that if I pick a phone, my conservation may be listened to by the CIA. But society is OK because it's informal. I have friends, we're going out for dinner, and that's it. I talked to the cashier at the grocery store earlier today, the state wasn't there.

I have escaped all kind of government control, and there are thousands others like me. I hope our number will keep on growing.

I guess we have to define state and society. I believe there could be a society without a state, I may even believe that I believe in one. I hate the state in the sense that I hate bureaucracy, being told what to do and how to do it, or the fact that if I pick a phone, my conservation may be listened to by the CIA. But society is OK because it's informal. I have friends, we're going out for dinner, and that's it. I talked to the cashier at the grocery store earlier today, the state wasn't there.

I have escaped all kind of government control, and there are thousands others like me. I hope our number will keep on growing.

What you don't seem to realize is that it's precisely the things you hate that make the things you love about modern society possible. All of the perks of the modern world are only possible with the current configuration. You can't separate the things you love from the things you hate, they go hand in hand. If you're being honest and really feel strongly about how the world is evolving then the impeccable thing for you to do would be to detach from it and make your own way, for better or worse. It's just pure hypocrisy if you take all of the things you enjoy but shun the burden that go hand in hand with them and blame it all on "the man" or "them". You are "the man", everyone is "the man" for as long as you accept the benefits of the modern world.

I find it amazing that someone I've never met is able to tell what I like and what I dislike. You have a lot of imagination ObscureBean. I'll tell you something I like. I like starvation. I say people dying from hunger is good. There should be more of them, especially in Europe. If you've never experienced starvation, I wish you'll experience it soon.

The example of people dying from hunger is good for others, and suffering from starvation is helpful to make good life's decisions. to many people, I guess it's also needed. All over Europe, I see people making mistakes because the state, the country, governments and all that, prevent them from starving. The world would be better with the risk of starvation above anyone's head.

I thought you mentioned that you hated the State  :P In any case I don't need to know the specifics of what you like or dislike, my comment is somewhat more fundamental than that with hate/like/dislike itself being the simplest common denominator. It doesn't matter what you actually like or dislike.
What I've been trying to say is that a counterpart is automatically created when you like something. Whether you want to or are aware of it or not it automatically causes you to dislike something else.
You start with neutrality (or perfect balance). From there any use of force or will automatically causes neutrality to break up into positive negative, love hate, etc.
Humans are conceited, they deny the counterpart created by their use/abuse of power/force/will. Their much lauded "human love" has got a nasty side to it that everyone is happy to brush under the rug. And when it gets too big to be contained, the only recourse is to find a scapegoat imbue it with the malignance and then it stone to death to purge the tension  :D
The more you love the more you hate. The more you chase happiness the harder it is to avoid unhappiness.

I thought you mentioned that you hated the State  :P In any case I don't need to know the specifics of what you like or dislike, my comment is somewhat more fundamental than that with hate/like/dislike itself being the simplest common denominator. It doesn't matter what you actually like or dislike.
What I've been trying to say is that a counterpart is automatically created when you like something. Whether you want to or are aware of it or not it automatically causes you to dislike something else.
You start with neutrality (or perfect balance). From there any use of force or will automatically causes neutrality to break up into positive negative, love hate, etc.
Humans are conceited, they deny the counterpart created by their use/abuse of power/force/will. Their much lauded "human love" has got a nasty side to it that everyone is happy to brush under the rug. And when it gets too big to be contained, the only recourse is to find a scapegoat imbue it with the malignance and then it stone to death to purge the tension  :D
The more you love the more you hate. The more you chase happiness the harder it is to avoid unhappiness.

Hey, we're not talking about electricity! I like ice-cream, what do I dislike?
I didn't like the state, I didn't like my country, so there was only thing to do, and I did it: I broke up.
I don't fill monthly tax forms anymore (yes, for business). No more grumbling about it, more free time and more money.
I'm happy now. It was when I was a good participating sheep citizen that I was not.

That's what I wish to everyone here, but to many people, the state has become some kind of a religion, and they praise it for enslaving them, even with many not happy about the situation, but they're too afraid to change it.

“Global yields lowest in 500 years of recorded history. $10 trillion of neg. rate bonds. This is a supernova that will explode one day.”

Those were the words of famed bond fund manager Bill Gross.

(Gross was actually the first portfolio manager inducted into the Fixed Income Analyst Society's "Hall of Fame". And yes, there really is a hall of fame for that.)

Gross wrote that more than $10 trillion in government bonds actually have NEGATIVE yields, and that interest rates are at the lowest levels in financial history.

For example, the British government just issued its lowest-yielding bonds since 1694.

This has very dangerous implications.

Goldman Sachs recently calculated that a mere 1% rise in US Treasury yields would trigger over $1 trillion in losses, exceeding all the losses from the last crisis.

(Bear in mind that interest rates need to rise by at least 3x that amount just to reach their historic averages… so this is entirely plausible.)

Most of those losses would be suffered by Western banks, the majority of which have insufficient capital to withstand such a major hit.

Four alternatives to holding your savings in a bank (http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/News/198591-2016-06-12-four-alternatives-to-holding-your-savings-in-a-bank.htm)


https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/522-0612131904-a.png (http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/News/198591-2016-06-12-four-alternatives-to-holding-your-savings-in-a-bank.htm)




Read more at https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/four-alternatives-to-holding-your-savings-in-a-bank-19885/. (https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/four-alternatives-to-holding-your-savings-in-a-bank-19885/)


8)

Nothing new here.
He should have talked about BTC. And I don't think that storing a lot of cash in your home is a safe thing to do (you may be robbed). Same thing for gold.

Well I think bitcoin is designed for everyone not just for stateless societies. Well stateless societies can use it freely though. They can use it for everyday living.

As fears of England leaving the European Union came to a head on voting day, a stunning scene emerged on the streets of London. Though it was completely ignored by the mainstream media, the fact that Brits were lining up in droves in front of gold and silver shops spoke volumes about financial assets of last resort during a real or perceived crisis.

It is within this context that legendary resource investor Doug Casey warns that the hurricane which took the world by storm in 2008 is still a significant threat. While we've spent the last several years in relative peace and calm inside the eye of the storm, we'll be entering the other side of the hurricane wall later this year, says Casey. And as we've seen in London, Greece, and Argentina in the past decade, when financial hurricanes wreak havoc across the economic landscape, the only safe haven to be had is in precious metals:

We're at the start of a really major bull market… This is going to be driven by a lot of things… It's going to take gold a lot higher than most people can imagine at this point.

…

… I think $5,000 gold will happen at some point because we're looking at a worldwide monetary crisis of historic proportions.

Casey shares his concerns, warnings and strategies in a must-hear interview with Future Money Trends: