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Title: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 12:52:47 AM As per my request, Gmaxwell wrote a patch to apply to the Bitcoin client that will drop all transactions to SatoshiDice and simply not relay or verify them. It will also drop all transactions that are less than 10,000 satoshis in value, so you might want to change that value to 1 or 2 satoshis, to only drop SD's losing bets tx's.
Let's show them how the free market works and that not only miners have a say on this subject! Code: diff --git a/src/main.cpp b/src/main.cpp You may not be interested in the if (txout.nValue <= 10000) test, though it also gets the dice you-lost transactions and other UXTO set bloating flood. This will make the node not relay or mine these transactions. It will, of course, still accept them in blocks. If you are a miner you may wish to use Luke-jr's patch that may be found here and is more complete and probably not as radical as the one above by Gmaxwell: http://codepad.org/7RQZIkhd Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Vernon715 on March 08, 2013, 01:10:14 AM And why would we want to do that. ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: wachtwoord on March 08, 2013, 01:11:32 AM And why would we want to do that. ??? ??? ??? Indeed. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 01:14:21 AM And why would we want to do that. ??? ??? ??? I don't know... maybe you want to save 80% of the bandwidth your bitcoin client spends and 80% of the CPU cycles used to verify TX's... I know I do. Don't care about gambling, and don't want to carry out their transactions. It's enough being forced to carry them on my HDD when they get included in a block. Free market, baby. SD is free to spam the blockchain, I'm free to block them from my computer and network and not help them in any way I see fit. BTW, this isn't a war against SD, it only a matter of having the option. If you guys don't like me and everyone else having the option to block TX's we consider spam or prejudicial, who's trying to censor who after all? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Killdozer on March 08, 2013, 01:32:31 AM This seems pretty pointless. Even if the time goes and you actually manage to make that big number of users to run a modified client, which is not very believable in the first place (they will need to know how to patch/recompile the client, or download the modified version from somewhere), the satoshidice is just going to modify their transactions to not being catched by that patch, and you will have to make a new patch and make everyone use that, etc...
It does not seem viable to make a patch that would somehow detect satoshidice transactions, if they really wanted to hide them... But for your personal benefit of saved bandwidth and CPU power (does it really take that much though?), this seems like a pretty solid solution. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Nemesis on March 08, 2013, 01:47:50 AM Use reward system to fix the problem, not censorship and controlling freak like this.
If the fees are too high for SatoshiDice's TX then they have to change their model. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 01:49:10 AM This seems pretty pointless. Even if the time goes and you actually manage to make that big number of users to run a modified client I don't want to make anyone use it. The patch is here. Who wishes to use, go for it. Did I say everyone should use it? No, I just said people who think SD is blockchain spam have a solution here. They are also free to try and bypass the patch by changing the way they do business, but that would mean the patch works as predicted, wouldn't it? Use reward system to fix the problem, not censorship and controlling freak like this. If the fees are too high for SatoshiDice's TX then they have to change their model. I don't want to fix SD problem. I want to fix MY problem, and being perfectly aware I'm not special, I would almost bet others have the same problem, hence starying this thread to put the patch in front of everyone, not just miners or whoever is following that other thread. BTW, the control freaks here are you guys who seem to be offended by this thread... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: drawingthesun on March 08, 2013, 01:51:24 AM And the beginning of the end starts here.
Maybe a node needs to be distributed over 2+ computers based on your internet speed and HDD space, because individuals being entire nodes is not scalable is it? What if a node could be a pool, a single computer, a hundred computers? And you get to chose what type of node to be apart of? This type of flexibility needs to be built otherwise Bitcoin has no chance, even Satoshi saw 100GB's of transactions per day when he devised Bitcoin. The solution is not to target every single user that generates a lot of transactions. (Also doesn't SD pay double the minimum fee anyway?) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: nikkisnowe on March 08, 2013, 01:51:36 AM Yeah, that would send a great message to get bitcoin adopted by other potential businesses. "Hey come use bitcoin! Don't get too successful though, otherwise we'll block any of your transactions." Can you imagine the kind of reaction this would have? What kind of asinine suggestion is this? If you're so concerned about your precious bandwidth, don't use the full client. There are other ways to use bitcoin than to be running the full client. You are fucking idiot.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Nemesis on March 08, 2013, 01:53:45 AM This seems pretty pointless. Even if the time goes and you actually manage to make that big number of users to run a modified client I don't want to make anyone use it. The patch is here. Who wishes to use, go for it. Did I say everyone should use it? No, I just said people who think SD is blockchain spam have a solution here. They are also free to try and bypass the patch by changing the way they do business, but that would mean the patch works as predicted, wouldn't it? Use reward system to fix the problem, not censorship and controlling freak like this. If the fees are too high for SatoshiDice's TX then they have to change their model. I don't want to fix SD problem. I want to fix MY problem, and being perfectly aware I'm not special, I would almost bet others have the same problem, hence starying this thread to put the patch in front of everyone, not just miners or whoever is following that other thread. BTW, the control freaks here are you guys who seem to be offended by this thread... Sure you can do whatever you want, but asking others to do the same is stupid. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 01:57:58 AM Sure you can do whatever you want, but asking others to do the same is stupid. For the last time: I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I'm informing. People will have to make up their own minds and act accordingly. Deal with it! If you guys wish to discuss the validity of this solution, there are already threads to do that. This is an informative thread with a solution to a known problem. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: nikkisnowe on March 08, 2013, 02:01:55 AM This solution is the equivalent of a tourniquet around the neck to stop a bloody nose.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Littleshop on March 08, 2013, 02:02:25 AM Sure you can do whatever you want, but asking others to do the same is stupid. For the last time: I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I'm informing. People will have to make up their own minds and act accordingly. Deal with it! If you guys wish to discuss the validity of this solution, there are already threads to do that. This is an informative thread with a solution to a known problem. I agree. You have a right to speak and inform. Others have a right to say why it is a bad idea. I personally will include SD transactions with my miners. If my pool says they will SPECIFICALLY omit them I will leave the pool. If my pool decides to set a fee structure or rules (limits) that reduces them or collects a reasonable free I am fine with that. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Buffer Overflow on March 08, 2013, 02:09:16 AM I can't help but feel this thread was born due to some deep underlying jealousy of SD's success issues rather than the claimed bandwidth wastage reason.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: MysteryMiner on March 08, 2013, 02:10:07 AM It takes only 1 miner accepting Satoshi Dicke transactions and collecting transaction fees and the block is in blockchain with all the bloat. Of course rest of network can refuse to accept blocks containing Satoshi Spam transactions and then blockchain fork is introduced.
I love Satoshi Spam Dicke. It made me rich, I know when to pull out from gamble. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 08, 2013, 02:11:57 AM As per my request, Gmaxwell wrote a patch to apply to the Bitcoin client that will drop all transactions to SatoshiDice and simply not relay or verify them. It will also drop all transactions that are less than 10,000 satoshis in value, so you might want to change that value to 1 or 2 satoshis, to only drop SD's losing bets tx's. Let's show them how the free market works and that not only miners have a say on this subject! Code: diff --git a/src/main.cpp b/src/main.cpp You may not be interested in the if (txout.nValue <= 10000) test, though it also gets the dice you-lost transactions and other UXTO set bloating flood. This will make the node not relay or mine these transactions. It will, of course, still accept them in blocks. Thanks psy, already looking for an easy way to patch bitcoin-qt (http://www.rugatu.com/questions/9625/how-to-easily-apply-a-source-patch-to-bitcoin-qt). Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Nemesis on March 08, 2013, 02:13:23 AM Sure you can do whatever you want, but asking others to do the same is stupid. For the last time: I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I'm informing. People will have to make up their own minds and act accordingly. Deal with it! If you guys wish to discuss the validity of this solution, there are already threads to do that. This is an informative thread with a solution to a known problem. This doesnt save your HD space, and CPU power.... LOL You do things stupid and expect to inform others ? We also have a right to inform others about.... being "informed" by you. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Nemesis on March 08, 2013, 02:16:21 AM I think satoshiDICE is providing a valuable service. If one little gambling website can bring Bitcoin to it's knees (hyperbole), then Bitcoin is clearly not ready for the levels of adoption some, including myself, hope for. satoshiDICE - stress testing Bitcoin since April 2012. Exactly, OP must have stuck his head up his ass for too long, and now he stinks everyone by opening his mouth. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 02:18:32 AM Sure you can do whatever you want, but asking others to do the same is stupid. For the last time: I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I'm informing. People will have to make up their own minds and act accordingly. Deal with it! If you guys wish to discuss the validity of this solution, there are already threads to do that. This is an informative thread with a solution to a known problem. I agree. You have a right to speak and inform. Others have a right to say why it is a bad idea. I personally will include SD transactions with my miners. If my pool says they will SPECIFICALLY omit them I will leave the pool. If my pool decides to set a fee structure or rules (limits) that reduces them or collects a reasonable free I am fine with that. I understand you. But you, being a miner, are being rewarded for those transactions. Me, being just a regular node and a non-miner, I'm being ripped of my resources with no reward whatsoever. In fact all I have are disadvantages: Higher fees, delayed transactions and resource hogging. Not wanting to hurt them, only wanting them not to hurt me. This doesnt save your HD space, and CPU power.... LOL You do things stupid and expect to inform others ? We also have a right to inform others about.... being "informed" by you. The only stupid things I'm seing here are your replies... ::) No, It doesn't save HD space, and I never said it would. You have the reading skill of a kindergartten baby. I said BANDWIDTH and CPU CYCLES. And yes, those will be saved by not relaying the transactions and by not verifying their signatures. Stop making a fool of yourself, Nemesis... And BTW, take YOUR head out of YOUR ass as it seems to affect your reading, mmmmkay? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: niko on March 08, 2013, 02:21:41 AM And why would we want to do that. ??? ??? ??? I don't know... maybe you want to save 80% of the bandwidth your bitcoin client spends and 80% of the CPU cycles used to verify TX's... If you want to save 80% of the bandwidth and CPU cycles, you could choose to block all transactions with hashes not ending in {insert some random string here}, or all transactions worth below 14.71662334 and above 0.00014455 coins, or just block transactions first heard from an IP originating in the U.S., or any other criterion. SD transactions, just like most other TX today, include TX fee, and adhere to the rules of the protocol. Your choice to block them over any other arbitrary group of transactions, under the false pretense of "avoiding blockchain bloat," is retarded. Seriously, if you want to play cops and impose your moral views on others: the U.S. (unlike S.D.) is responsible for millions of deaths worldwide. Why not block all U.S.-originating transactions? Fortunately, clicking the "ignore" button under your smokin' avatar is even easier then applying this retarded patch. I don't give a shit about gambling, but I think I'll roll a few dice tonight... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Nemesis on March 08, 2013, 02:23:39 AM The only stupid things I'm seing here are your replies... ::) No, It doesn't save HD space, and I never said it would. You have the reading skill of a kindergartten baby. I said BANDWIDTH and CPU CYCLES. And yes, those will be saved by not relaying the transactions and by not verifying their signatures. Stop making a fool of yourself, Nemesis... And BTW, take YOUR head out of YOUR ass, mmmmkay? What bandwidth does it save Psy? CPU cycles are so precious.... i love the idea of saving some. Hint: you wasted more bandwidth and CPU cycles (LOL) by typing this rubbish response. what a pile..... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Severian on March 08, 2013, 02:24:08 AM As per my request, Gmaxwell wrote a patch to apply to the Bitcoin client Thanks for this. Looks like I'll be learning how to recompile/patch the client on a Linux box. I can't wait to see what I screw up. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Blazr on March 08, 2013, 02:24:46 AM SatoshiDice is wasting bitcoin network resources and making gambler's pay for it. They've stress tested enough now and done enough damage, it about time they start using the system correctly, I am unable to run a bitcoin node anymore as if I do, my girlfriend gets mad because "Netflix is all fuzzy and keeps freezing", thanks to all of the SD spammy transactions.
Not only that I hope they realize all those 1 satoshi payments they make are unspendable in the current fee structure, they're simply throwing away money that nobody can spend. They need to put a proper deposit/withdrawal system in place, not only will they save A LOT!! on fees, they'll save network resources and have a lesser impact on the environment. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: justusranvier on March 08, 2013, 02:26:26 AM Good plan - why implement changes to make the network more scalable (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0) when you could snipe at Satoshi dice instead?
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 02:26:40 AM Your choice to block them over any other arbitrary group of transactions, under the false pretense of "avoiding blockchain bloat," is retarded. Please, moron, quote me on that "avoiding blockchain bloat" pretense i have. Curious to see where I said that... Or just get the confirmation you make things up as you go... And Nemesis, you're a tool... If you have nothing valid to say, get lost. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Severian on March 08, 2013, 02:28:33 AM Seriously, if you want to play cops and impose your moral views on others: I don't get that sense. Psy makes a good point: SD is making money off the rest of us and giving us nothing in return, except for the miners. They're getting paid for the spam we all have to carry and we're not. I have no issue with folks making money. I dislike people making money at the expense of others. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 08, 2013, 02:29:29 AM I think satoshiDICE is providing a valuable service. If one little gambling website can bring Bitcoin to it's knees (hyperbole), then Bitcoin is clearly not ready for the levels of adoption some, including myself, hope for. satoshiDICE - stress testing Bitcoin since April 2012. Exactly. My view 100%. I am dismayed that SD has found a flaw in Bitcoin such that 50% of its volume is from an intrinsic or newly enabled source, not by displacing previous real-world fiat/paypal/mc transaction flow. This is compounded because, potentially, SD could absorb 100% of Bitcoin's capacity within a year. The benefit is that this has occurred within the Bitcoin community user-base. So lessons can be learned from it and improvements made. SD does not have to be killed off, just tamed :) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 02:29:52 AM Thanks for this. Looks like I'll be learning how to recompile/patch the client on a Linux box. I can't wait to see what I screw up. That makes 2 of us. ;) Altho I don't expect to screw up anything, just to fail or not :P Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Littleshop on March 08, 2013, 02:30:59 AM I understand you. But you, being a miner, are being rewarded for those transactions. Me, being just a regular node and a non-miner, I'm being ripped of my resources with no reward whatsoever. In fact all I have are disadvantages: Higher fees, delayed transactions and resource hogging. Not wanting to hurt them, only wanting them not to hurt me. Again, not saying you do not have the right to do this but it is pretty dumb. You DO get something from relaying those transactions. You get others relaying YOUR transactions without discrimination. You are working to break that part of bitcoin. Just like using bittorrent and LEACHING only is in your short term interest, it saves bandwidth too. It is not in your long term interest, well at least if you want to continue using an UNCENSORED BITCOIN. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 08, 2013, 02:35:50 AM I understand you. But you, being a miner, are being rewarded for those transactions. Me, being just a regular node and a non-miner, I'm being ripped of my resources with no reward whatsoever. In fact all I have are disadvantages: Higher fees, delayed transactions and resource hogging. Not wanting to hurt them, only wanting them not to hurt me. Again, not saying you do not have the right to do this but it is pretty dumb. You DO get something from relaying those transactions. You get others relaying YOUR transactions without discrimination. You are working to break that part of bitcoin. Just like using bittorrent and LEACHING only is in your short term interest, it saves bandwidth too. It is not in your long term interest, well at least if you want to continue using an UNCENSORED BITCOIN. Cut the slack Littleshop, everyone is free to do as they please, miners and users included. Nobody is censoring anybody, is just having the choice to "ignore". The transaction will still get into the blockchain if miners include them anyways, but users that don't want to waste CPU cycles and bandwidth are free to do so. So your point is? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: grue on March 08, 2013, 02:36:51 AM The blockchain needs to grow to be able to handle these so-called "spam" transactions that are following the rules of the protocol, even if you disagree with them from a moral/sensibility perspective. you're arguing that your computer resources should be used to relay gambling/spam/drug dealing/whatever activities you don't agree with just because it's "censorship"Bitcoin is all about open access and anti-censorship. It is kind of grating to hear people say "these stupid gamblers are ruining BTC, we need to block all SD transactions!!". Go somewhere else to create your own anti-spam/anti-gambling currency. Oh and in case you are wondering, I have never used any BTC gambling site. But I believe no one should have the power to control how one utilizes his or her resources. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Severian on March 08, 2013, 02:40:45 AM You are working to break that part of bitcoin. Are miners doing the same when they ignore transactions because it will cost them money or its not worth it? Bitcoin is a market as well as a currency and a network. If a part of the market says, "I choose not to consent to the use of my time and resources in these kinds of transactions", why should anyone care? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 02:42:49 AM The blockchain needs to grow to be able to handle these so-called "spam" transactions that are following the rules of the protocol, even if you disagree with them from a moral/sensibility perspective. you're arguing that your computer resources should be used to relay gambling/spam/drug dealing/whatever activities you don't agree with just because it's "censorship"Bitcoin is all about open access and anti-censorship. It is kind of grating to hear people say "these stupid gamblers are ruining BTC, we need to block all SD transactions!!". Go somewhere else to create your own anti-spam/anti-gambling currency. Oh and in case you are wondering, I have never used any BTC gambling site. But I believe no one should have the power to control how one utilizes his or her resources. Bitcointalk user 100x is hereby sentenced to run a Tor exit node without his approval, given that it's not a problem for him to relay stuff and it could be seen as censhorship by closed minded persons as, well, 100x. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 08, 2013, 02:48:11 AM SatoshiDice is wasting bitcoin network resources and making gambler's pay for it. They've stress tested enough now and done enough damage, it about time they start using the system correctly, ... They need to put a proper deposit/withdrawal system in place, not only will they save A LOT!! on fees, they'll save network resources and have a lesser impact on the environment. Blazr, this is no good. Yes SD can be asked nicely to internalize everything like Mt. Gox and other big sites, but it won't stop SD2, SD3 and SD4 emerging, owned by persons unknown who will be just as capable of bringing Bitcoin to its knees. There needs to be an improvement to the spam-filtering which keeps SD type messaging to a controlled percentage (20%?,30%?, whatever%) of the current throughput capacity. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: niko on March 08, 2013, 02:49:21 AM Seriously, if you want to play cops and impose your moral views on others: I don't get that sense. Psy makes a good point: SD is making money off the rest of us and giving us nothing in return, except for the miners. They're getting paid for the spam we all have to carry and we're not. I have no issue with folks making money. I dislike people making money at the expense of others. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Littleshop on March 08, 2013, 02:51:57 AM You are working to break that part of bitcoin. Are miners doing the same when they ignore transactions because it will cost them money or its not worth it? Bitcoin is a market as well as a currency and a network. If a part of the market says, "I choose not to consent to the use of my time and resources in these kinds of transactions", why should anyone care? Ignoring transactions because they do contain or do not contain fees is part of the free market. I am talking about SPECIFICALLY dropping transactions from a specific person REGARDLESS OF FEES. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Littleshop on March 08, 2013, 02:54:03 AM I understand you. But you, being a miner, are being rewarded for those transactions. Me, being just a regular node and a non-miner, I'm being ripped of my resources with no reward whatsoever. In fact all I have are disadvantages: Higher fees, delayed transactions and resource hogging. Not wanting to hurt them, only wanting them not to hurt me. Again, not saying you do not have the right to do this but it is pretty dumb. You DO get something from relaying those transactions. You get others relaying YOUR transactions without discrimination. You are working to break that part of bitcoin. Just like using bittorrent and LEACHING only is in your short term interest, it saves bandwidth too. It is not in your long term interest, well at least if you want to continue using an UNCENSORED BITCOIN. Cut the slack Littleshop, everyone is free to do as they please, miners and users included. Nobody is censoring anybody, is just having the choice to "ignore". The transaction will still get into the blockchain if miners include them anyways, but users that don't want to waste CPU cycles and bandwidth are free to do so. So your point is? I have said exactly what you have said. Everyone is free to do as they please. And everyone is free to criticize someone for doing something stupid. Dropping transactions from a specific person IS censorship. Just like VISA/MC do. So go ahead... be like them. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 02:55:10 AM You are working to break that part of bitcoin. Are miners doing the same when they ignore transactions because it will cost them money or its not worth it? Bitcoin is a market as well as a currency and a network. If a part of the market says, "I choose not to consent to the use of my time and resources in these kinds of transactions", why should anyone care? Ignoring transactions because they do contain or do not contain fees is part of the free market. I am talking about SPECIFICALLY dropping transactions from a specific person REGARDLESS OF FEES. It's free market also. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Severian on March 08, 2013, 03:23:40 AM You want to use p2p technology, but don't want to contribute resources? That should be being asked of SD, not of me. I give more resources to the network than I take. SD pays the miners and the winners of their game but takes more from the network than it gives overall. "But SD adds value to the network because people want to obtain bitcoins in order to play it." is an argument I've heard in defense of SD. It's a bad argument. It's the same X number of people/SDbots throwing the same bitcoins back and forth all day long. It looks like impressive traffic but it reminds me of this joke: Quote Two economists were walking down the street one day when they passed two large piles of dog shit. The first economist said to the other, "I'll pay you $20,000 to eat one of those piles of shit." The second one agrees and chooses one of the piles and eats it. The first economist pays him his $20,000. Then the second economist says, "I'll pay you $20,000 to eat the other pile of shit." The first one says okay, and eats the shit. The second economist pays him the $20,000. They resume walking down the street. After a while, the second economist says, "You know, I don't feel very good. We both have the same amount of money as when we started. The only difference is we've both eaten shit." The first economist says: "Ah, but you're ignoring the fact that we've engaged in $40,000 worth of trade!" Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 03:27:34 AM The blockchain needs to grow to be able to handle these so-called "spam" transactions that are following the rules of the protocol, even if you disagree with them from a moral/sensibility perspective. you're arguing that your computer resources should be used to relay gambling/spam/drug dealing/whatever activities you don't agree with just because it's "censorship"Bitcoin is all about open access and anti-censorship. It is kind of grating to hear people say "these stupid gamblers are ruining BTC, we need to block all SD transactions!!". Go somewhere else to create your own anti-spam/anti-gambling currency. Oh and in case you are wondering, I have never used any BTC gambling site. But I believe no one should have the power to control how one utilizes his or her resources. Bitcointalk user 100x is hereby sentenced to run a Tor exit node without his approval, given that it's not a problem for him to relay stuff and it could be seen as censhorship by closed minded persons as, well, 100x. No, your analogy would be better if I was already running a Tor exit node, and you were recommending that I block traffic to certain sites (which would be impossible, due to encryption at each step, if I recall properly). But I'm not recommending anyone to do anything. I'm showing them they have the option, and it's something which is very possible to do. The only persons trying to convince anyone of their "righteous" view points are you guys who don't agree with this hack. I know you guys would prefer a SD/BTC doomsday thread where I tried to convince everyone this is the right thing to do, but this one isn't it. I even made a call to action in the thread title for the users who thought SD is blockchain spam, but you guys all flocked here en masse, not really sure why, if the message wasn't intended for you... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Littleshop on March 08, 2013, 03:42:51 AM The blockchain needs to grow to be able to handle these so-called "spam" transactions that are following the rules of the protocol, even if you disagree with them from a moral/sensibility perspective. you're arguing that your computer resources should be used to relay gambling/spam/drug dealing/whatever activities you don't agree with just because it's "censorship"Bitcoin is all about open access and anti-censorship. It is kind of grating to hear people say "these stupid gamblers are ruining BTC, we need to block all SD transactions!!". Go somewhere else to create your own anti-spam/anti-gambling currency. Oh and in case you are wondering, I have never used any BTC gambling site. But I believe no one should have the power to control how one utilizes his or her resources. Bitcointalk user 100x is hereby sentenced to run a Tor exit node without his approval, given that it's not a problem for him to relay stuff and it could be seen as censhorship by closed minded persons as, well, 100x. No, your analogy would be better if I was already running a Tor exit node, and you were recommending that I block traffic to certain sites (which would be impossible, due to encryption at each step, if I recall properly). But I'm not recommending anyone to do anything. I'm showing them they have the option, and it's something which is very possible to do. The only persons trying to convince anyone of their "righteous" view points are you guys who don't agree with this hack. I know you guys would prefer a SD/BTC doomsday thread where I tried to convince everyone this is the right thing to do, but this one isn't it. I even made a call to action in the thread title for the users who thought SD is blockchain spam, but you guys all flocked here en masse, not really sure why, if the message wasn't intended for you... It seems like you fail to understand how a forum works. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 03:51:46 AM It seems like you fail to understand how a forum works. No, I understand very well how a forum works. I'm just not liking that some morons are trying to put words I didn't say on my mouth and speculating about reasons which don't even exist. And they're only doing it because they don't think it's a problem or don't agree with the solution and don't want people to do what they are free to do, not because they have a better solution for us users who consider this a problem. Don't want to help, get out of the way. And I'm not talking about you ;) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: datafish on March 08, 2013, 04:08:00 AM I agree with psy's point of view. The whole point of Bitcoin is to take control of our money away from centralized authorities and put it in our hands. If I don't want my resources consumed by Satoshi Dice, then it is up to them to properly incentivize me. Since I'm not a miner, I don't know how they could. I don't care what people spend their money on, but I do care that SD is pushing me up against bandwidth limits that will soon require me to stop relaying altogether. Who wins then?
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: niko on March 08, 2013, 04:22:43 AM You want to use p2p technology, but don't want to contribute resources? That should be being asked of SD, not of me. I give more resources to the network than I take. SD pays the miners and the winners of their game but takes more from the network than it gives overall. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 04:28:57 AM You want to use p2p technology, but don't want to contribute resources? That should be being asked of SD, not of me. I give more resources to the network than I take. SD pays the miners and the winners of their game but takes more from the network than it gives overall. Difference is quantity. And why should I care about fees on the transactions? I'm not a miner. So, for these 2 reasons SD tx's aren't the same as others. Now for some critical thinking: So some of you guys say that SD is just exploiting a "flaw" in the Bitcoin protocol design that allows them to leech resources from us for their own profit and that it's alright to do it, right? Well, I'm exploiting a flaw on SD "protocol"(them always using the same addresses) and that should also be alright. After all the noise here, I still fail to see the difference and a problem. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: niko on March 08, 2013, 04:48:27 AM Would it be okay if SD eliminated low-value bets, thus making gamblers play less often and place higher bets?
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Severian on March 08, 2013, 04:53:18 AM Every time you or I broadcast a transaction for our own reasons, we use exactly the same resources and pay same fees as anyone sending an SD transaction. After all the noise here, I still fail to see the difference and a problem. My own reasons don't include using you and everyone else on the network as part of my daily business model while only paying off a small subset of the network, the miners, to get away with it. If the Bitcoin network were a group of people in a room exchanging information, SD would be the hyper motherfucker in the room that won't ever shut up and is taking money from a small percentage of the rubes in the group by running a craps game in the corner while adults are trying to have a rational conversation. I didn't and don't consent to having my resources used non-stop by a goddam gamebot. SD has made millions on the good graces of the entire network. Being out of good graces but also being civilized, I'm just going to figure out how to put these here earplugs on my client so it doesn't have to listen to the narcissistic spazz in the corner anymore. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 04:54:29 AM Would it be okay if SD eliminated low-value bets, thus making gamblers play less often and place higher bets? No. That still leaves those pesky 1 satoshi transactions. What they have to do is their own accounting system. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 08, 2013, 04:56:11 AM Would it be okay if SD eliminated low-value bets, thus making gamblers play less often and place higher bets? No. That still leaves those pesky 1 satoshi transactions. Agreed. But, no voluntary action by SD will really help, because another site can pick up on SD's lost business... As I suggested earlier, there needs to be an improvement to the spam-filtering which keeps SD type messaging to a controlled percentage (20%?,30%?, whatever%) of the current throughput capacity. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Littleshop on March 08, 2013, 05:09:15 AM You want to use p2p technology, but don't want to contribute resources? That should be being asked of SD, not of me. I give more resources to the network than I take. SD pays the miners and the winners of their game but takes more from the network than it gives overall. Difference is quantity. And why should I care about fees on the transactions? I'm not a miner. So, for these 2 reasons SD tx's aren't the same as others. Now for some critical thinking: So some of you guys say that SD is just exploiting a "flaw" in the Bitcoin protocol design that allows them to leech resources from us for their own profit and that it's alright to do it, right? Well, I'm exploiting a flaw on SD "protocol"(them always using the same addresses) and that should also be alright. After all the noise here, I still fail to see the difference and a problem. On top of all of the points why transaction censorship is a bad idea, your solution only starts a cat and mouse game and will even take down legitimate transactions. Satoshi dice can first make the bet addresses random but published. Then they can change them once a week. Are you going to keep playing this silly game? Also the chance of a 1dice transaction having nothing to do with SD randomly are low but real. Even casascius had a random transaction that was 1fake. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: fancy_pants on March 08, 2013, 05:11:38 AM this was posted on freenode:
doctor_pullfingr: GoDaddy got semi famous off the savetoby controversy. Then got really famous off the Superbowl controversy. I think S.Dice should milk this controversy for everything it's got. shout S.Dice is spam from the mountaintops [8:58pm] doctor_pullfingr: I own shares btw [8:58pm] doctor_pullfingr: http://savetoby.com/ Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: nyusternie on March 08, 2013, 05:22:43 AM initially, was a little upset at the idea of filtering a p2p network. if you don't like it then simply don't use it. when i'm downloading a torrent, i always make sure that i seed as much as i receive (seems only right). but psy (and anyone else who support this patch) have every right to filter their nodes, even if its just on principle (like not wanting to support online gambling or whatever).
as much as i hate banner ads and could easily install an ad filter plug-in, i choose not to so that i can support a subscription-free internet. i do so because i can, however many others don't have that luxury. maybe they've got a slow connection (lots of people still use dial-up) or a limited data plan (with expensive overrages). there are countless more reasons. i'm currently working on a update for bitcoinjs and i think blockchain filtering would be a terrific feature to add for those that choose/need to use it. bitcoin has lots of criteria to filter on and users have even more reasons why they'd want/need to filter. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 05:49:01 AM SatoshiDICE is taking advantage of the early stage of Bitcoin, at a time when transaction volume is too low to fill the blocks and bring fees up to a level that would make up for the drop in subsidy. If Bitcoin was fully mature, it will not be vulnerable to this type of transaction spam and no one would be talking about it let alone suggest patches, because fees would make the dust spam economically unviable.
The problem is that we do not have a mature network, and we're in the bootstrapping phase. SatoshiDICE is consuming the "startup capital" (current state of low fees, high subsidy, and lots of free space in blocks) to profit without bringing a corresponding increase in growth of Bitcoin adoption. The simple fact is that a relatively small handful of gambling addicts and bots are flooding the block chain with 70%+ of its transactions. This is not good. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Severian on March 08, 2013, 05:49:36 AM transaction censorship Filtering is the more appropriate word. My choosing to ignore someone doesn't censor your voice. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: AbsoluteZero on March 08, 2013, 05:55:20 AM STOP THE CENSORSHIP!
Lets make sure Bitcoin is transaction neutral! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 05:58:08 AM Lets make sure Bitcoin is transaction neutral! Bitcoin was never transaction-neutral. Transactions with the highest fees per kilobyte will always "win", while transactions with no fees and new coins will always "lose". The rules exist to protect the network Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: dirtycat on March 08, 2013, 06:02:50 AM As per my request, Gmaxwell wrote a patch to apply to the Bitcoin client that will drop all transactions to SatoshiDice and simply not relay or verify them. It will also drop all transactions that are less than 10,000 satoshis in value, so you might want to change that value to 1 or 2 satoshis, to only drop SD's losing bets tx's. Let's show them how the free market works and that not only miners have a say on this subject! Code: diff --git a/src/main.cpp b/src/main.cpp You may not be interested in the if (txout.nValue <= 10000) test, though it also gets the dice you-lost transactions and other UXTO set bloating flood. This will make the node not relay or mine these transactions. It will, of course, still accept them in blocks. Thanks! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: oOoOo on March 08, 2013, 06:04:11 AM SatoshiDICE is taking advantage of the early stage of Bitcoin, at a time when transaction volume is too low to fill the blocks and bring fees up to a level that would make up for the drop in subsidy. If Bitcoin was fully mature, it will not be vulnerable to this type of transaction spam and no one would be talking about it let alone suggest patches, because fees would make the dust spam un-economical. The problem is that we do not have a mature network, and we're in the bootstrapping phase. SatoshiDICE is consuming the "startup capital" (current state of low fees, high subsidy, and lots of free space in blocks) to profit without bringing a corresponding increase in growth of Bitcoin adoption. The simple fact is that a relatively small handful of gambling addicts and bots are flooding the block chain with 70%+ of its transactions. This is not good. You are exactly right! Applying the patch today, will report back! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 08, 2013, 06:31:14 AM SatoshiDICE is taking advantage of the early stage of Bitcoin, at a time when transaction volume is too low to fill the blocks and bring fees up to a level that would make up for the drop in subsidy. If Bitcoin was fully mature, it will not be vulnerable to this type of transaction spam and no one would be talking about it let alone suggest patches, because fees would make the dust spam un-economical. The problem is that we do not have a mature network, and we're in the bootstrapping phase. SatoshiDICE is consuming the "startup capital" (current state of low fees, high subsidy, and lots of free space in blocks) to profit without bringing a corresponding increase in growth of Bitcoin adoption. The simple fact is that a relatively small handful of gambling addicts and bots are flooding the block chain with 70%+ of its transactions. This is not good. Ah. Nice being in agreement on this. You are exactly right! Applying the patch today, will report back! Unfortunately, the patch is not much more effective than turning the radio up to drown out a strange noise from the car. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 06:37:03 AM Unfortunately, the patch is not much more effective than turning the radio up to drown out a strange noise from the car. I wouldn't be so sure. Having Bitcoin users get into the habit of understanding and applying client changes is a good way to raise awareness. Ultimately, it is only through informed decisions about what changes to accept or reject that we can have a healthy network of decentralized nodes. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 08, 2013, 06:52:05 AM Unfortunately, the patch is not much more effective than turning the radio up to drown out a strange noise from the car. I wouldn't be so sure. Having Bitcoin users get into the habit of understanding and applying client changes is a good way to raise awareness. Ultimately, it is only through informed decisions about what changes to accept or reject that we can have a healthy network of decentralized nodes. Yes, in the general sense you are absolutely right. It is this specific case which has me worried. As you say "not good". Even if SD starts behaving, several similar applications could kick off at any time... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Jouke on March 08, 2013, 08:17:35 AM It is really easy for satoshidice to implement an other way of confirming transactions. They are not doing so because they have no incentive to do so, with this I have a vote in it!
Thanks Psy. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Herbert on March 08, 2013, 10:35:37 AM SatoshiDICE is taking advantage of the early stage of Bitcoin, at a time when transaction volume is too low to fill the blocks and bring fees up to a level that would make up for the drop in subsidy. If Bitcoin was fully mature, it will not be vulnerable to this type of transaction spam and no one would be talking about it let alone suggest patches, because fees would make the dust spam economically unviable. The problem is that we do not have a mature network, and we're in the bootstrapping phase. SatoshiDICE is consuming the "startup capital" (current state of low fees, high subsidy, and lots of free space in blocks) to profit without bringing a corresponding increase in growth of Bitcoin adoption. The simple fact is that a relatively small handful of gambling addicts and bots are flooding the block chain with 70%+ of its transactions. This is not good. Well put. I would like to point out that the number of transactions itself is not the real problem. I believe in bitcoin and hope it becomes mainstream sometime. When this point is reached the number of SDice transactions will not be significant anymore, so we have to deal with these scaleability issues. But I DO care about those "1 Satoshi bet result information" transactions. As pointed out by others, these Satoshis are effectively unspendable. So SDice is burning money with their ignorance. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: kerogre256 on March 08, 2013, 10:47:34 AM As per my request, Gmaxwell wrote a patch to apply to the Bitcoin client that will drop all transactions to SatoshiDice and simply not relay or verify them. It will also drop all transactions that are less than 10,000 satoshis in value, so you might want to change that value to 1 or 2 satoshis, to only drop SD's losing bets tx's. Are you for real ? IS NOT SPAM its transaction, if bitcoin will be sucess 99,99% transaction will be in satoshi..Let's show them how the free market works and that not only miners have a say on this subject! Code: diff --git a/src/main.cpp b/src/main.cpp You may not be interested in the if (txout.nValue <= 10000) test, though it also gets the dice you-lost transactions and other UXTO set bloating flood. This will make the node not relay or mine these transactions. It will, of course, still accept them in blocks. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: kerogre256 on March 08, 2013, 10:53:28 AM Anyway how I know who is using this 'fork'?, i dont want have anyting to do with it. (I use giminer ) where I can learn how patching, system is working??
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: nyusternie on March 08, 2013, 11:06:17 AM Anyway how I know who is using this 'fork'?, i dont want have anyting to do with it. (I use giminer ) where I can learn how patching, system is working?? view the txs for the solved blocks of your mining pool. shouldn't be too hard to tell if they're including 1dice txs Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ab8989 on March 08, 2013, 11:22:32 AM I think satoshiDICE is providing a valuable service. If one little gambling website can bring Bitcoin to it's knees (hyperbole), then Bitcoin is clearly not ready for the levels of adoption some, including myself, hope for. satoshiDICE - stress testing Bitcoin since April 2012. I think the patch for dropping satoshiDICE TXs is providing a valuable service. If one little patch can bring Bitcoin to it's knees (hyperbole), then Bitcoin is clearly not ready for the levels of adoption some, including myself, hope for. SatoshiDice TX dropping patch - stress testing Bitcoin since March 2013. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Killdozer on March 08, 2013, 12:06:51 PM Quote I think the patch for dropping satoshiDICE TXs is providing a valuable service. If one little patch can bring Bitcoin to it's knees (hyperbole), then Bitcoin is clearly not ready for the levels of adoption some, including myself, hope for. SatoshiDice TX dropping patch - stress testing Bitcoin since March 2013. Great view of the problem :) Actually, I think that one good thing might come out of this: people will learn to make their transactions and addresses truly anonymous, and make it impossible to filter them on any arbitrary parameters, like addresses starting with "1dice". Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 03:31:45 PM SatoshiDice is broken, and this patch proves it.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 03:37:54 PM people will learn to make their transactions and addresses truly anonymous, and make it impossible to filter them on any arbitrary parameters, like addresses starting with "1dice". SD will have to have certain fixed addresses. Whether they use a vanity name or not, it will always be possible to hard-code the list of their addresses in the code. This having been said, the OP's patch is a temporary hack designed to provide immediate relief but it is not viable in the long term. The correct technical solution is to punish the bad behavior (economically unviable outputs) no matter who it comes from. Note that SatoshiDICE is not the only entity that put unprunable spam in the block chain. ASICMiner recently sent a 1-satoshi dividend to all it's shareholders. A good technical solution would filter that as well. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: dserrano5 on March 08, 2013, 03:45:34 PM The only utility I see in this patch is for new clients. I guess the initial blochain downloading/validation would be sped up somewhat with it applied. Wrapping it into a command-line switch would make that a possibility.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 03:50:13 PM people will learn to make their transactions and addresses truly anonymous, and make it impossible to filter them on any arbitrary parameters, like addresses starting with "1dice". SD will have to have certain fixed addresses. Whether they use a vanity name or not, it will always be possible to hard-code the list of their addresses in the code. This having been said, the OP's patch is a temporary hack designed to provide immediate relief but it is not viable in the long term. The correct technical solution is to punish the bad behavior (economically unviable outputs) no matter who it comes from. Note that SatoshiDICE is not the only entity that put unprunable spam in the block chain. ASICMiner recently sent a 1-satoshi dividend to all it's shareholders. A good technical solution would filter that as well. If you don't modify the patch it will drop all tx's that are equal or less than 10,000 satoshis, so those ASICMiner dividends would also be dropped, not relayed and only verifyed when they got into a block. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ArticMine on March 08, 2013, 03:50:54 PM Why not simply refuse to relay transactions where any of the outputs is less than the transaction fee?
The client can be modifed so that any "dust" left over is added to the transaction fee. Of course one could send "dust" with a 0 transaction fee but then one needs a miner willing to add it to the blockchain. No need to Wikileak S.Dice or anyone else a la VISA, MasterCard PayPal etc. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 03:57:43 PM Why not simply refuse to relay transactions where any of the outputs is less than the transaction fee? What? And drop most of sendmany transactions with it? No thanks! I only want to drop SD transactions, The dust filter to drop tx less than 10k satoshis is just a add-on and can be modified to only drop tx's equal or less than 2 satoshis, which woud drop all of SD "you lose" messages and not many more tx's. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: jgarzik on March 08, 2013, 04:29:38 PM Lets make sure Bitcoin is transaction neutral! Bitcoin was never transaction-neutral. Transactions with the highest fees per kilobyte will always "win", while transactions with no fees and new coins will always "lose". The rules exist to protect the network Much more than that -- miners have always had the power to choose which transactions to include in blocks, which transactions to exclude from blocks. The "censorship" is an intentional part of the system. Miners should be free to ignore transactions they do not feel worth mining. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ArticMine on March 08, 2013, 04:30:18 PM Then at least set the min tx value to the transaction fee. It will have the desired effect. My proposal is to deal with transactions which create one or more addresses that contain only dust leading to blockchain bloat that is very difficult if not impossible to prune. A bona fide send many transaction that creates dust as a byproduct can deal with this by adding the dust to the TX fee.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: cypherdoc on March 08, 2013, 05:25:06 PM i've come around to the idea that SD tx's are not spam. they're paying fees after all which are contributing to miners bottom line. and the dust can be dealt with by including them as an input to a subsequent tx.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 05:28:44 PM and the dust can be dealt with by including them as an input to a subsequent tx. Did you not read? Sure, the dust COULD be included as an input in a subsequent tx but the fee required for that tx will be higher than the amount of the dust. For example, a 1 satoshi input with a 10,000 satoshi fee. Please explain to me why anyone would spend 10,000 satoshi to send 1 satoshi? why, Why, WHY Won't it READ?! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: greyhawk on March 08, 2013, 05:40:17 PM why, Why, WHY Won't it READ?! Welcome to the Bitcointalk Forums. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: justusranvier on March 08, 2013, 06:02:58 PM Please explain to me why anyone would spend 10,000 satoshi to send 1 satoshi? They wouldn't, but that's not what he was talking about.If I'm spending half of a 10 BTC output and have a 1 satoshi output laying around I could add it as a second input to the transaction and send 5.00000001 to the change output instead of 5.00000000 Do this enough and the dust problem is solved. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 06:12:13 PM Please explain to me why anyone would spend 10,000 satoshi to send 1 satoshi? They wouldn't, but that's not what he was talking about.If I'm spending half of a 10 BTC output and have a 1 satoshi output laying around I could add it as a second input to the transaction and send 5.00000001 to the change output instead of 5.00000000 Do this enough and the dust problem is solved. Only problem is you need a big enough transaction so the bigger outputs cancel the fee for the smaller ones. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 06:14:07 PM If I'm spending half of a 10 BTC output and have a 1 satoshi output laying around I could add it as a second input to the transaction and send 5.00000001 to the change output instead of 5.00000000 No that doesn't work. Adding the 1 satoshi output as a second input would require more than 1 satoshi in fees. So you would end up with 4.9998999991 in the change output instead of 5.0, for a net loss. Still, thanks for adding signal to the dialog instead of noise. If there was a simple technical measure for dealing with this problem, you can rest assured that it would have gone into the client already. This is why I brought the issue to the forum, because it's a difficult problem. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: niko on March 08, 2013, 06:16:04 PM Please explain to me why anyone would spend 10,000 satoshi to send 1 satoshi? They wouldn't, but that's not what he was talking about.If I'm spending half of a 10 BTC output and have a 1 satoshi output laying around I could add it as a second input to the transaction and send 5.00000001 to the change output instead of 5.00000000 Do this enough and the dust problem is solved. Then at least set the min tx value to the transaction fee. It will have the desired effect. My proposal is to deal with transactions which create one or more addresses that contain only dust leading to blockchain bloat that is very difficult if not impossible to prune. A bona fide send many transaction that creates dust as a byproduct can deal with this by adding the dust to the TX fee. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: NEO2012 on March 08, 2013, 06:16:18 PM ANYBODY WHOS NOT A DUMMY
SATOSHI DICE IS A BUSINESS AKA MAKING MONEY IN TRASANCTIN FEES AND MOST IPORTANTLY BLOCK CHAIN DILUTION FOR MAKING IT HARDER TO TRACE TRANSANCTIONS INDUCING MORE NOISE IN THE CHAIN FOR CURIOUS DUCHES WHO LIKE TO TRACE SHEAT Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: justusranvier on March 08, 2013, 06:22:12 PM Only problem is you need a big enough transaction so the bigger outputs cancel the fee for the smaller ones. I'm not familiar enough with the minimum fee and priority rules to know where the cutoff is. I'm pretty sure I've sent no-fee transactions with two inputs before though. How big would the output need to be?No that doesn't work. Adding the 1 satoshi output as a second input would require more than 1 satoshi in fees. So you would end up with 4.9998999991 in the change output instead of 5.0, for a net loss. What if I was already planning to include a fee for the 5 BTC transaction to get faster processing? Would I need to increase it because of this extra input?Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 06:25:06 PM ANYBODY WHOS NOT A DUMMY SATOSHI DICE IS A BUSINESS AKA MAKING MONEY IN TRASANCTIN FEES AND MOST IPORTANTLY BLOCK CHAIN DILUTION FOR MAKING IT HARDER TO TRACE TRANSANCTIONS INDUCING MORE NOISE IN THE CHAIN FOR CURIOUS DUCHES WHO LIKE TO TRACE SHEAT OK smartass, tell us where does SatoshiDice makes money in TX fees... Also, your caps lock is broken it seems. Only problem is you need a big enough transaction so the bigger outputs cancel the fee for the smaller ones. I'm not familiar enough with the minimum fee and priority rules to know where the cutoff is. I'm pretty sure I've sent no-fee transactions with two inputs before though. How big would the output need to be?You need to do some math. It goes somewhat like this: 1 BTC input can be spent as a 1 BTC output with 0 fees 24hrs after you receive it. Now do the math for 1 satoshi... This is only a simplifed explanation, there may be other rules involved. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 06:32:20 PM What if I was already planning to include a fee for the 5 BTC transaction to get faster processing? Would I need to increase it because of this extra input? Yes, because the calculation of required fees and the miner's calculation of transaction priority based on fee, uses "fees per kilobyte" (or fees per byte). In general, increasing the size of the transaction will require more in fees. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: sinner on March 08, 2013, 06:42:31 PM No, it's not spam.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ShireSilver on March 08, 2013, 06:51:37 PM I've been trying to figure out what all the fuss is about, and the only thing that makes sense is that some people really want to drive the price of S.DICE shares down. All the talk about spam and the like is either purposeful manipulation or economic misunderstanding, and perhaps those against Satoshi Dice that aren't in on the price manipulation scam should read Economics in one Lesson and think about it a bit.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: marhjan on March 08, 2013, 06:54:24 PM I think satoshiDICE is providing a valuable service. If one little gambling website can bring Bitcoin to it's knees (hyperbole), then Bitcoin is clearly not ready for the levels of adoption some, including myself, hope for. satoshiDICE - stress testing Bitcoin since April 2012. +100,000,000 satoshis This sD issue is one of the main reasons I remain bearish in the medium term. Bitcoin is NOT yet ready for primetime until we find ways to make microtransactions feasible. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: justusranvier on March 08, 2013, 06:57:47 PM Bitcoin is NOT yet ready for primetime until we find ways to make microtransactions feasible. At least Gavin is committed (https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=135) to getting it ready for primetime.Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Coinabul on March 08, 2013, 07:04:14 PM Yeah, then we can blacklist Silkroad, and then maybe Wikileaks! And at that point we'll finally be the evil we set out to destroy.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: cypherdoc on March 08, 2013, 07:09:28 PM Bitcoin is NOT yet ready for primetime until we find ways to make microtransactions feasible. At least Gavin is committed (https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=135) to getting it ready for primetime.well if Gavin thinks its a good idea, i do too. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 07:10:04 PM Yeah, then we can blacklist Silkroad, and then maybe Wikileaks! And at that point we'll finally be the evil we set out to destroy. Adapt or die! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ArticMine on March 08, 2013, 09:13:38 PM The problem here is that this leads to blockchain bloat and it defeats pruning the blockchain https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability) since 1 satoshi does not equal zero. As to why S.Dice is doing this it is simple they are using the blockchain not to transfer funds but to send a message namely that the player has lost. Furthermore no one involved has any incentive to clean up the dust since this leads to a long term but not immediate problem.
The big cost here is the long term storage of each 1 satoshi output for the life of Bitcoin. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 09:28:22 PM Bitcoin is NOT yet ready for primetime until we find ways to make microtransactions feasible. Microtransactions are feasible now, you can easily send pennies. But is it really fair to say that Bitcoin isn't ready because it is problematic to send $0.00000045? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: K1773R on March 08, 2013, 10:17:58 PM As per my request, Gmaxwell wrote a patch to apply to the Bitcoin client that will drop all transactions to SatoshiDice and simply not relay or verify them. It will also drop all transactions that are less than 10,000 satoshis in value, so you might want to change that value to 1 or 2 satoshis, to only drop SD's losing bets tx's. you should get the patch of Luke-Jr, this only ignores tx's TO SD, payments back arent being ignored and as we know there will always be 2 tx's for each gamble try.Let's show them how the free market works and that not only miners have a say on this subject! Code: diff --git a/src/main.cpp b/src/main.cpp You may not be interested in the if (txout.nValue <= 10000) test, though it also gets the dice you-lost transactions and other UXTO set bloating flood. This will make the node not relay or mine these transactions. It will, of course, still accept them in blocks. reference: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149668.msg1595281#msg1595281 EDIT: u still process winnings because gmaxwell's patch only blocks losses. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 08, 2013, 10:50:15 PM As per my request, Gmaxwell wrote a patch to apply to the Bitcoin client that will drop all transactions to SatoshiDice and simply not relay or verify them. It will also drop all transactions that are less than 10,000 satoshis in value, so you might want to change that value to 1 or 2 satoshis, to only drop SD's losing bets tx's. you should get the patch of Luke-Jr, this only ignores tx's TO SD, payments back arent being ignored and as we know there will always be 2 tx's for each gamble try.Let's show them how the free market works and that not only miners have a say on this subject! Code: diff --git a/src/main.cpp b/src/main.cpp You may not be interested in the if (txout.nValue <= 10000) test, though it also gets the dice you-lost transactions and other UXTO set bloating flood. This will make the node not relay or mine these transactions. It will, of course, still accept them in blocks. reference: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149668.msg1595281#msg1595281 EDIT: u still process winnings because gmaxwell's patch only blocks losses. Winning payments don't bug me and there is no reason to drop them. But the loss transactions will be blocked from relaying by the following rule, which in this case drops every transaction that is equal or less than 10,000 satoshis. I edited this part to only drop tx's with 5 or less satoshis. Still need to install all the deps to compile it now and see how well it works. Code: if (txout.nValue <= 10000) But anyway, I will include Luke-jr's patch in the OP and people can choose between them. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: K1773R on March 08, 2013, 11:04:46 PM But the loss transactions will be blocked from relaying by the following rule, which in this case drops every transaction that is equal or less than 10,000 satoshis. I edited this part to only drop tx's with 5 or less satoshis. Still need to install all the deps to compile it now and see how well it works. you could set it to Code: if (txout.nValue <= 10000) Code: if (txout.nValue <= 1) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 11:06:27 PM you could set it to Code: if (txout.nValue <= 1) I heard the developers mumbling that after some mining pools began dropping tx with 1-satoshi outputs, SatoshiDICE responded by including a random amount of satoshis (from 2 to 9) instead of a 1-satoshi input. Regardless, from an economic standpoint there is no difference between a 1 or 10 satoshi output. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: K1773R on March 08, 2013, 11:16:38 PM you could set it to Code: if (txout.nValue <= 1) I heard the developers mumbling that after some mining pools began dropping tx with 1-satoshi outputs, SatoshiDICE responded by including a random amount of satoshis (from 2 to 9) instead of a 1-satoshi input. Regardless, from an economic standpoint there is no difference between a 1 or 10 satoshi output. if SD is going to include bigger outputs il happily greate a patch which remembers the biggest dust output and sets this+1 automaically (without restart) to this check. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Mosper on March 08, 2013, 11:22:36 PM So you want to actively attack one of the only actual uses for bitcoin and certainly the only legitimate and ongoing business using bitcoin because it is working completely within the rules of bitcoin and paying the transaction fees in order to be prioritized? If bitcoin can't handle one producer of large volumes of transactions how do you think it is going to function as a currency adopted and used worldwide? If amazon started accepting bitcoins and paid the fees to prioritize its transactions would you be asking people to attack its activity as well? Is something which circulates your currency not a good thing considering that it is deflationary and prone to hoarding/stagnation? I think you guys ranting and plotting against SatoshiDice are being counter-productive to your proclaimed goal of spreading bitcoin and wanting it to be the currency of the entire world. If it can't handle this it definitely won't be able to function in that realm so if anything you should be clamoring for an alteration of the core functionality of how transactions are handled because as it stands there is no chance of being a functional currency. The more people who use it the less functional it will be making it only useful as a niche tool for moving/using funds for illegitimate things on a small scale.. It would be a good idea to make necessary alterations in advance of it really catching on or a big distributor like amazon picking it up. You only get one shot at a first impression.
It's funny that MtGox crawls to a level which would make a real broker kill himself whenever it experiences a high volume of trades as well. It looks like both the bitcoin system itself and the avenues of treating it like a real currency (or commodity) are actually harmful to the system so I would say spend your effort improving the infrastructure for trading/obtaining and the mechanism for sending/receiving instead of trying to rally against one of the few things providing a reason to use the coins at all. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: doobadoo on March 08, 2013, 11:24:48 PM I love Satoshi Spam Dicke. It made me rich, I know when to pull out from gamble. Exactly, always pull out before you bust. err something.... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 11:38:48 PM So you want to actively attack one of the only actual uses for bitcoin and certainly the only legitimate and ongoing business using bitcoin because it is working completely within the rules of bitcoin and paying the transaction fees in order to be prioritized? Here's the part that you missed (which you can figure out by simply reading all the posts): SatoshiDICE figured out a way to use the Bitcoin network to send transactions with a fee that is considerably less than the true cost of the transaction. SD transactions (for losing bets) are not like normal transactions. Yeah, he figured out a way to work within the rules - unfortunately the rules are broken. This is no different than someone cheating in an online game. Sure, it might be possible to do so without detection or consequences, but is it ethical? Does the end justify the means? Of course not. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Mosper on March 08, 2013, 11:44:28 PM I don't think it is cheating or unethical to act within the confines of the rules that govern a piece of software. It not an exploit it is a function of the system. If you don't like it then rally to change the system. It's going to have to happen for bitcoin to have any chance of even coping with the mythical world-wide adoption should it ever happen.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 08, 2013, 11:48:53 PM I don't think it is cheating or unethical to act within the confines of the rules that govern a piece of software. It not an exploit it is a function of the system. Bitcoin is beta, SatoshiDICE is taking advantage of bugs in the software. Quote If you don't like it then rally to change the system. It's going to have to happen for bitcoin to have any chance of even coping with the mythical world-wide adoption should it ever happen. Now this I agree with. But it would be gentlemanly for Erik Vorhees to disable the generation of SatoshiDICE spam, or choose one of the alternatives I provided to notify players of losing bets. At least until the developers can patch this defect. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: davout on March 09, 2013, 12:09:56 AM Bitcoin is beta, SatoshiDICE is taking advantage of bugs in the software. If a system is broken, fix the system, don't blame the abuser.Now this I agree with. But it would be gentlemanly for Erik Vorhees to disable the generation of SatoshiDICE spam, or choose one of the alternatives I provided to notify players of losing bets. At least until the developers can patch this defect. Yup, let's ask abusers to be nice to the system and stop abusing it, because you know, it's not nice.It just doesn't work that way. EDIT : Also this patch is pointless, you probably spent more CPU cycles browsing this thread than you'll spend verifying SD txes for a full year. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 02:01:42 AM EDIT : Also this patch is pointless, you probably spent more CPU cycles browsing this thread than you'll spend verifying SD txes for a full year. Can you do the math you did to reach this conclusion and show us? Or did you just pulled it out of your ass? Also: It's my computer, I'll spend my CPU cycles as I see fit, and verifying SD tx's before they get included in a block isn't what I want to spend my CPU cycles on, unlike browsing this forum, here I'll spend all CPU cycles it takes without even thinking about it. See the difference? Any counter-argument? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: nyusternie on March 09, 2013, 02:24:17 AM Bitcoin is beta, SatoshiDICE is taking advantage of bugs in the software. If a system is broken, fix the system, don't blame the abuser.precisely. btw, out of curiosity i played a few 50/50 games (actually made a few mBTC) and received 0.00005 when i finally lost. if my math is right, isn't that like 5000x more than the minimum? and it seems like their paying 0.001 in tx fees (which is double the min). are they adjusting their model as a result of all the fuss? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: kakobrekla on March 09, 2013, 02:28:26 AM Now this I agree with. But it would be gentlemanly for Erik Vorhees to disable the generation of SatoshiDICE spam, or choose one of the alternatives I provided to notify players of losing bets. At least until the developers can patch this defect. I think your sub 1k transactions are spammy. Everything under 1k BTC should be blocked, lets do this! I think that is a fair limit, honestly. Now act gentlemanly, stop wasting our time and psys cpu cycles and stfu. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 02:39:51 AM Now this I agree with. But it would be gentlemanly for Erik Vorhees to disable the generation of SatoshiDICE spam, or choose one of the alternatives I provided to notify players of losing bets. At least until the developers can patch this defect. I think your sub 1k transactions are spammy. Everything under 1k BTC should be blocked, lets do this! I think that is a fair limit, honestly. Go for it! You just need to change the patch values... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ShireSilver on March 09, 2013, 03:40:13 AM Bitcoin is NOT yet ready for primetime until we find ways to make microtransactions feasible. Microtransactions are feasible now, you can easily send pennies. But is it really fair to say that Bitcoin isn't ready because it is problematic to send $0.00000045? I really hate that people have so totally misused the microtransaction term. IMHO microtransactions are significantly less than a penny, i.e. something that just can't be done in the dollar based system. And yes, I do want to be able to send $0.00000045 and have it accepted by the network; because I might have some need that people just haven't thought of yet. Back when I was a Windows C++ programmer and COM was the big new thing, there was the idea that you could write reusable objects that would be paid for by really tiny usage charges. The idea never caught on because the payment infrastructure was too costly so the minimum payments were around 50 cents or more. That's clearly unacceptable when your component is something like a smart drop-down list; but it would be possibly acceptable to charge a satoshi per use. Think about music. I would never pay as much as one cent per play of a song, but I might be willing to pay 0.0000001btc/song. The ability to have really truly small transactions is one of the benefits that makes bitcoin worth using over the traditional payment systems. IMHO, the bitcoin network needs to be able to handle several orders of magnitude MORE transactions than the major credit card processors. That will open up new opportunities that just weren't possible before. Satoshi Dice is just one example of using the unique characteristics of bitcoin to do something that wasn't possible before, and it won't be the last. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 09, 2013, 03:45:24 AM I really hate that people have so totally misused the microtransaction term. IMHO microtransactions are significantly less than a penny, i.e. something that just can't be done in the dollar based system. And yes, I do want to be able to send $0.00000045 and have it accepted by the network; because I might have some need that people just haven't thought of yet. Yeah I hate it too, that people misuse the term microtransaction. It was never intended, for any payment system, to support transactions so small that the value of the transaction is less than the cost to send it and/or store it (in the case of Bitcoin). No matter what the payment system, a microtransaction must have value greater than the cost of transmission. Transactions that cost more to send and/or store than the actual payment make no sense. Sure we should scale Bitcoin but is it necessary for growth to support transactions that are a net loss to the network? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: justusranvier on March 09, 2013, 03:47:52 AM IMHO, the bitcoin network needs to be able to handle several orders of magnitude MORE transactions than the major credit card processors. That will open up new opportunities that just weren't possible before. I've used this analogy before, but Bitcoin is to money what the WWW is to newspapers.We aren't yet able to imagine what it will make possible because it's something completely new. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: kakobrekla on March 09, 2013, 03:50:27 AM No matter what the payment system, a microtransaction must have value greater than the cost of transmission. Transactions that cost more to send and/or store than the actual payment make no sense. Sure we should scale Bitcoin but is it necessary for growth to support transactions that are a net loss to the network? Blah blah, pennies cost more to make than they are worth. As ET said, no miner has the initiative NOT to accept a fee of 1 satoshi for tx. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 09, 2013, 03:51:56 AM Think about music. I would never pay as much as one cent per play of a song, but I might be willing to pay 0.0000001btc/song. The ability to have really truly small transactions is one of the benefits that makes bitcoin worth using over the traditional payment systems. That's the problem, your example becomes a fallacy if it costs the Bitcoin network 0.0000047 to process your 0.0000001 payment. This might be fine if it was just you, but not 10 million people doing the same thing! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 09, 2013, 04:00:00 AM As ET said, no miner has the initiative NOT to accept a fee of 1 satoshi for tx. Miners are not as dumb as a herd of goats. If it costs the network 47 satoshis for 1 miner to accept a 1 satoshi fee - then they will stop accepting such low fees. At the moment the high block reward disguises such calculations. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ShireSilver on March 09, 2013, 04:01:40 AM Think about music. I would never pay as much as one cent per play of a song, but I might be willing to pay 0.0000001btc/song. The ability to have really truly small transactions is one of the benefits that makes bitcoin worth using over the traditional payment systems. That's the problem, your example becomes a fallacy if it costs the Bitcoin network 0.0000047 to process your 0.0000001 payment. This might be fine if it was just you, but not 10 million people doing the same thing! Why would it cost 0.0000047? Who says the cost has to be that high? Do you have any real numbers showing how much it actually costs to do a transaction? And why not have 10 million people doing that? Don't you want bitcoin to grow? The idea that we should limit its growth seems absurd to me. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 05:46:56 AM Think about music. I would never pay as much as one cent per play of a song, but I might be willing to pay 0.0000001btc/song. The ability to have really truly small transactions is one of the benefits that makes bitcoin worth using over the traditional payment systems. That's the problem, your example becomes a fallacy if it costs the Bitcoin network 0.0000047 to process your 0.0000001 payment. This might be fine if it was just you, but not 10 million people doing the same thing! Why would it cost 0.0000047? Who says the cost has to be that high? Do you have any real numbers showing how much it actually costs to do a transaction? And why not have 10 million people doing that? Don't you want bitcoin to grow? The idea that we should limit its growth seems absurd to me. The idea that we should limit ourselves to do whatever you think it's right seems absurd to me. Is anyone forcing you to use the patch? It's possible to do and not against the Bitcoin protocol, so deal with it. People will do it with or without your approval. Like we needed it... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 09, 2013, 08:47:33 AM Why would it cost 0.0000047? Who says the cost has to be that high? Do you have any real numbers showing how much it actually costs to do a transaction? And why not have 10 million people doing that? Don't you want bitcoin to grow? The idea that we should limit its growth seems absurd to me. You always want to limit the growth of an uneconomic activity. Even a loss leading item has to be economic when considered part of total inventory. 1 satoshi is ridiculously small. It is 0.5 millionths of a US$. If you had a music service where 10 million people bought single-tracks for 1 satoshi a time then you would earn $5 per day. This is 10 million transactions processed for $5 (ignoring costs and scope for profit). In four years Bitcoin has just processed 14 million transactions: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-total Could it have done that for $7 ?? Consider all the disk space across thousands of nodes, the hashing power used, electricity, IT work, bandwidth! Then your music "service" wants Bitcoin to process 10 million more transactions, every single day, for $5, customers are always good to have, right? Draw your own conclusions about what micro-transactions are realistic. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: davout on March 09, 2013, 09:27:49 AM Can you do the math you did to reach this conclusion and show us? Yes, I can.Also: It's my computer, I'll spend my CPU cycles as I see fit, and verifying SD tx's before they get included in a block isn't what I want to spend my CPU cycles on, unlike browsing this forum, here I'll spend all CPU cycles it takes without even thinking about it. See the difference? I'm saying it's retarded, not questioning your right to retardedness. See the difference?Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 09:31:47 AM Can you do the math you did to reach this conclusion and show us? Yes, I can.So, where is it? Still pulling it out of your ass? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Anduck on March 09, 2013, 09:46:31 AM psy: IMO you're not helping Bitcoin by spreading scripts to ban some transactions. If bitcoin can't be used like SD does, bitcoin doesn't work. We can't just go ban all the SD-like transaction spamming services, Bitcoin needs to -HANDLE- it. End of.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 09:53:52 AM psy: IMO you're not helping Bitcoin by spreading scripts to ban some transactions. If bitcoin can't be used like SD does, bitcoin doesn't work. We can't just go ban all the SD-like transaction spamming services, Bitcoin needs to -HANDLE- it. End of. We can't? Who's gonna stop us? And for the last time: This isn't banning nor censoring, it's filtering and it's within the protocol rules. If SatoshiDice can do whetever the fuck they want because they are following protocol rules, then so can I and everyone else. Don't like what I'm doing? Write a patch for it... ::) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: davout on March 09, 2013, 10:00:33 AM So, where is it? Still pulling it out of your ass? Shits given = 0. Happy?The french chick inside you must be expressing herself, because you're making ridiculous amounts of drama about such a useless and pointless thing. International woman's day was yesterday, you're a bit off schedule. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 10:07:46 AM So, where is it? Still pulling it out of your ass? Shits given = 0. Happy?The french chick inside you must be expressing herself, because you're making ridiculous amounts of drama about such a useless and pointless thing. International woman's day was yesterday, you're a bit off schedule. I'm not the one pulling math out of my ass to pretend I'm smart and showing that after all I'm just a smartass. And I'm not making any drama. You and and the other guys who don't agree with this are the real french drama queens in here. Nobody needs, wants or asked for your approval. Live with it. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Anduck on March 09, 2013, 10:17:42 AM psy: IMO you're not helping Bitcoin by spreading scripts to ban some transactions. If bitcoin can't be used like SD does, bitcoin doesn't work. We can't just go ban all the SD-like transaction spamming services, Bitcoin needs to -HANDLE- it. End of. We can't? Who's gonna stop us? And for the last time: This isn't banning nor censoring, it's filtering and it's within the protocol rules. If SatoshiDice can do whetever the fuck they want because they are following protocol rules, then so can I and everyone else. Don't like what I'm doing? Write a patch for it... ::) You think it's totally cool to try to restrict SD transactions from happening? And this indeed is censoring/banning/filtering, you're trying to make clients reject SD transactions. It could end up in a fork, right? And seriously, no you can't stop all the transaction spamming services. Instead, you could try to fix the actual problem instead of trying to band-aid it. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Killdozer on March 09, 2013, 10:27:31 AM Quote If SatoshiDice can do whetever the fuck they want because they are following protocol rules, then so can I and everyone else. Good point. Can we all just agree on this?Don't like what I'm doing? Write a patch for it... Roll Eyes Bitcoin is about incentives. SatoshiDice has made an incentive to actually fix the scalability problems (of which there are a lot!). This guy has made an incentive for services like SatoshiDice to make their presence in the blockchain anonymous. That's the satoshi genious - make an incentive and things will do themselves. (Well, not themselves, but the community will find a way.) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 11:13:10 AM It could end up in a fork, right? ............................................................................... .................WRONG Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: davout on March 09, 2013, 11:33:02 AM I'm not the one pulling math out of my ass to pretend I'm smart and showing that after all I'm just a smartass. And I'm not making any drama. You and and the other guys who don't agree with this are the real french drama queens in here. Nobody needs, wants or asked for your approval. Live with it. I don't really get why all this fuss, I can't really figure a valid reason for such a patch at this point. I have an absolute neutral opinion about SD, I don't use it and don't care either way. Let's get back to reasons for such a patch : - Saving CPU cycles - Saving disk space - Saving bandwith - [other ?] Saving CPU cycles ? Meh. Read Mike Hearn's excellent article about scalability for the figures. Saving disk space ? Your patch doesn't help, SD txes will eventually make it into a block. (Unless of course everyone is using your patch). Saving bandwith ? Come on. You still using a 56k ? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Killdozer on March 09, 2013, 11:35:54 AM Quote I don't really get why all this fuss, I can't really figure a valid reason for such a patch at this point. I have an absolute neutral opinion about SD, I don't use it and don't care either way. I think a lot of people (including me) think like that, but what I don't understand is why they don't just quietly not use the patch? It's not the TS that is creating all the drama... Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Uglux on March 09, 2013, 11:50:22 AM The only incentive satoshi dust has is profit. It is a gambling company. They are abusers by definition. They don't care which poor suckers money they take, so why should they care what they leave behind in the blockchain?
Every time you see, that somebody does not care, it is a strong indicator for ignorance, which is a state of being uninformed. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Killdozer on March 09, 2013, 11:55:47 AM Quote The only incentive satoshi dust has is profit. You are talking about ignorance?? You don't even know what the service is called, thus don't even know what we are talking about... (It's Dice, jeez...)Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Evolyn on March 09, 2013, 12:38:56 PM Okay, now I filter transactions because I don't like.
Wait! I wrote my own patch, I only relay transactions from people I like - and I like noone, except the one who are payin' me. Nice way how to turn running nodes into buisness. Nice way how to centralize a decentralized system. Nice way how to let the idea behind bitcoin die. Why do some people complain if others are using their cpu or bandwith in a peer2peer system? I support the network by connecting to it or i don't. Quite simple? But connecting to the network to gain their benefits without taking the disadvantages sounds greedy and selfish to me. If I cannot do with my money what I want, someone is telling me what I'm allowed to do ... wait, why I am using bitcoins? Bitcoin is still beta and the devs are working on it? If scaling, the "transaction spam" (If SD is spam, I stop using bitcoins myself right now), is a unsolveable problem (censoring/filtering is not solving the problem, just hiding) then i guess, an great experiment will fail soon. May I'm wrong, but aren't there already solutions on the paper (satoshis memo) to solve most problems and devs are working how to implement? Devs are smart people and because I'm smarter than they, I cannot watch over the edge and panic. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: SalvorHardin on March 09, 2013, 01:10:35 PM I am not sure why no one has mentioned it here. But starting today, Satoshi dice already changed its method of sending out 1 satoshi for confirming losing bet. Instead, they are now sending out 0.5% of bet amount back for losing bets, regardless of bet size. Given that minimum bet is 0.01 BTC, now all Satoshi Dice losing bet tx starts at 5000 satoshi and up. I presume that SD changed its policy due to the introduction of this patch here.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 01:39:08 PM I am not sure why no one has mentioned it here. But starting today, Satoshi dice already changed its method of sending out 1 satoshi for confirming losing bet. Instead, they are now sending out 0.5% of bet amount back for losing bets, regardless of bet size. Given that minimum bet is 0.01 BTC, now all Satoshi Dice losing bet tx starts at 5000 satoshi and up. I presume that SD changed its policy due to the introduction of this patch here. For a bet of up to 0.10 BTC they will still send a single satoshi because after them taking out the tx fee the value is zero or less. Unless they didn't update the following part Quote Transaction Fees On a win or a lose a transaction fee of 0.0005 is subtracted from the payment amount. If this makes the payment amount zero or less the payment is set to 0.00000001. In the event that the transaction costs us more to send back to you, we pay the fee over 0.0005. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: SalvorHardin on March 09, 2013, 01:45:49 PM I am not sure why no one has mentioned it here. But starting today, Satoshi dice already changed its method of sending out 1 satoshi for confirming losing bet. Instead, they are now sending out 0.5% of bet amount back for losing bets, regardless of bet size. Given that minimum bet is 0.01 BTC, now all Satoshi Dice losing bet tx starts at 5000 satoshi and up. I presume that SD changed its policy due to the introduction of this patch here. For a bet of up to 0.10 BTC they will still send a single satoshi because after them taking out the tx fee the value is zero or less. Unless they didn't update the following part Quote Transaction Fees On a win or a lose a transaction fee of 0.0005 is subtracted from the payment amount. If this makes the payment amount zero or less the payment is set to 0.00000001. In the event that the transaction costs us more to send back to you, we pay the fee over 0.0005. Now I wonder what % of SD bets are equal or less than 0.1 BTC... Dooglus? etotheipi? :P Err.... no. I am mentioning it here because starting today, Satoshi Dice does NOT send out 1 satoshi losing confirmation bet anymore. It sends out 5000 satoshi tx even for losing bet of 0.01 BTC. That is, Satoshi Dice now absorb all tx fee, and return 0.5% of bet amount, even for minimum bet. Previously, it will deduct a tx fee first and send you 1 satoshi. So you need to bet at least 0.2 BTC or so, to get 0.5 mbtc back. But now even 0.01 BTC minimum bet gives you at least 5000 satoshi back. I presume the change is made today because of all the heat and the patch here. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 01:51:22 PM I am not sure why no one has mentioned it here. But starting today, Satoshi dice already changed its method of sending out 1 satoshi for confirming losing bet. Instead, they are now sending out 0.5% of bet amount back for losing bets, regardless of bet size. Given that minimum bet is 0.01 BTC, now all Satoshi Dice losing bet tx starts at 5000 satoshi and up. I presume that SD changed its policy due to the introduction of this patch here. For a bet of up to 0.10 BTC they will still send a single satoshi because after them taking out the tx fee the value is zero or less. Unless they didn't update the following part Quote Transaction Fees On a win or a lose a transaction fee of 0.0005 is subtracted from the payment amount. If this makes the payment amount zero or less the payment is set to 0.00000001. In the event that the transaction costs us more to send back to you, we pay the fee over 0.0005. Now I wonder what % of SD bets are equal or less than 0.1 BTC... Dooglus? etotheipi? :P Err.... no. I am mentioning it here because starting today, Satoshi Dice does NOT send out 1 satoshi losing confirmation bet anymore. It sends out 5000 satoshi tx even for losing bet of 0.01 BTC. That is, Satoshi Dice now absorb all tx fee, and return 0.5% of bet amount, even for minimum bet. Previously, it will deduct a tx fee first and send you 1 satoshi. So you need to bet at least 0.2 BTC or so, to get 0.5 mbtc back. But now even 0.01 BTC minimum bet gives you at least 5000 satoshi back. I presume the change is made today because of all the heat and the patch here. Then the website needs to be updated with the correct info. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: SalvorHardin on March 09, 2013, 01:54:47 PM I am not affliated with Satoshi Dice in any way. But just a head up here since the new SD policy would render the new patch mostly ineffective. Unless you are blocking the specific SD address like Eligius pool.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 02:04:21 PM I am not affliated with Satoshi Dice in any way. But just a head up here since the new SD policy would render the new patch mostly ineffective. Unless you are blocking the specific SD address like Eligius pool. Yes, tx's sent to 1dice addresses are dropped. And I know you're not affiliated with SD ;) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: misterbigg on March 09, 2013, 02:58:41 PM It sends out 5000 satoshi tx even for losing bet of 0.01 BTC. That is, Satoshi Dice now absorb all tx fee, and return 0.5% of bet amount, even for minimum bet. Are you sure? It seems that it only returns 5,000 in all cases. Can you point me to a tx in blockchain.info that returns more than 5,000 satoshi? Also, 5,000 satoshi is still considered dust. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: SalvorHardin on March 09, 2013, 03:22:48 PM It sends out 5000 satoshi tx even for losing bet of 0.01 BTC. That is, Satoshi Dice now absorb all tx fee, and return 0.5% of bet amount, even for minimum bet. Are you sure? It seems that it only returns 5,000 in all cases. Can you point me to a tx in blockchain.info that returns more than 5,000 satoshi? Also, 5,000 satoshi is still considered dust. 5000 satoshi tx is only for minimum 0.01 BTC bet, if you bet more, SD will return more. It appears that SD now sends back a flat 0.5% regardless of bet size, and absorb the tx fee itself. Previously, you need to bet at least 0.20 BTC to get back even 0.5 mbtc, and all bets under 0.10 BTC will simply be confirmed via a 1 satoshi tx. You can observe the results on the Satoshi Dice website for the payoff of losing bets. You will notice that the new policy started today, March 9, 2013, without any prior announcement from SD. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: jl2012 on March 09, 2013, 06:52:39 PM Should make these as configurable options, so people can filter any unwanted addresses or dust outputs easily.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 09, 2013, 06:58:59 PM Should make these as configurable options, so people can filter any unwanted addresses or dust outputs easily. +1 and add some blockchain re-org option so people can be able to defend in case of large 51% attacks (+5 blocks), not larger than last embedded checkpoint of course. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: marcus_of_augustus on March 10, 2013, 12:33:53 AM I'm pretty sure SatoshiDICE could run exactly as it is now without bloating the blockchain (and the the tens of thousands of harddrives that support bitcoin). But they choose not to run SatoshiDICE off-chain, for whatever reason.
It is a tragedy of the commons situation that SatoshiDICE has taken advantage of to 'profit' at the expense of storage space on other people's hard-drives (and now CPU cycles). Until fees become appreciable enough that the blockchain is no longer a common good but a commercial asset, anyone can CHOOSE to abuse the goodwill of others. Would anyone tolerate a herd of grazing animals in Central Park NY? I don't even know anyone who plays SatoshiDICE. I have a hunch it is some kind of contrived "stress-test" or bitcoin-shuffling operation where the majority of trades are actually automated. The size of the bitcoin user base is nowhere near big enough to support the volume of trades if they are being performed by individuals hitting buttons. I don't even think the $500K profit is real, it maybe just bitcoin that has been moved from one location to another, under the guise of "profit". DYODD. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on March 10, 2013, 12:43:37 AM I'm pretty sure SatoshiDICE could run exactly as it is now without bloating the blockchain (and the the tens of thousands of harddrives that support bitcoin). But they choose not to run SatoshiDICE off-chain, for whatever reason. It is a tragedy of the commons situation that SatoshiDICE has taken advantage of to 'profit' at the expense of storage space on other people's hard-drives (and now CPU cycles). Until fees become appreciable enough that the blockchain is no longer a common good but a commercial asset, anyone can CHOOSE to abuse the goodwill of others. Would anyone tolerate a herd of grazing animals in Central Park NY? I don't even know anyone who plays SatoshiDICE. I have a hunch it is some kind of contrived "stress-test" or bitcoin-shuffling operation where the majority of trades are actually automated. The size of the bitcoin user base is nowhere near big enough to support the volume of trades if they are being performed by individuals hitting buttons. I don't even think the $500K profit is real, it maybe just bitcoin that has been moved from one location to another, under the guise of "profit". DYODD. Sanity prevails on this thread, while insanity prevails on another... Looking for someone to write me a Satoshidice script https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149496.0 Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 10, 2013, 01:22:52 AM Sanity prevails on this thread, while insanity prevails on another... Looking for someone to write me a Satoshidice script https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149496.0 Program me a bot so I can lose my bitcoins, please! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paulie_w on March 10, 2013, 01:32:40 AM first attempt at blockchain censorship begins...
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: foo on March 10, 2013, 03:50:41 AM Hm, looks like the patch blocks every address starting with "1dice". That's not good since someone could generate such an address accidentally. Make it block only the addresses listed on satoshidice.com and I'll consider applying it.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Blowfeld on March 10, 2013, 06:48:39 AM @psy: Thanks for spreading this patch. I wrote in another thread of an unintended consequence of this patch, so I won't repeat. But, for a regular node, not running a mining service, this patch is a significant improvement. It cuts your memory usage. It significantly cuts your outgoing bandwidth. And it may cut your total CPU usage, slightly.
@blazr: I, too, have turned off one full node. This was a well-connected node at a commercial service provider. The resources provided to my VPS are no longer sufficient to run the standard client. I'm not willing to pay more real dollars to upgrade to the next level of service. [Maybe I should collect donations from the SD supporters, who think I'm censoring SD. $20 per month should be sufficient to go to the next level VPS as long as SD is only consuming 60-70% of the transactions. Send me a PM stating what your donation is for, and when I've collected 3 months worth, I'll restart my node.] @Debian Squeeze users: I am running the patched client on Debian Squeeze. The one "required" prerequisite I wasn't able to install via normal apt-get was for UPNP support. But I don't need *or want* UPNP support. (The USE_UPNP option removes the requirement for that one prerequisite.) These four commands are sufficient to rebuild both the bitcoind and bitcoin-qt clients. Run these commands from the directory that contains the "build", "doc" and "src" directories. Code: qmake USE_UPNP=- (I didn't show building and running the test script. It works fine until it gets to the UPNP tests.) After this is decently adopted by the user community, the next step will be to preferentially connect to "SD-free" nodes (and to disconnect from nodes who are sending me the SD spam). Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: crazy_rabbit on March 10, 2013, 10:35:08 AM Why couldn't SatoshiDice, with their massive profits, build their own mining cluster (invest in lots of ASICS) so that they can keep adding their transactions into the block chain themselves, and run a number of full nodes as well? It seems more reasonable to ask them to do this then drop their TX's. We should be figuring out how to prevent spam from harming the system, not kicking SatoshiDice off it.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: finway on March 10, 2013, 10:37:13 AM Shipping fee is the big problem.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: jl2012 on March 10, 2013, 10:42:30 AM When more miners refuse to mine and nodes refuse to reply SD TX, SD is exposed to much higher risk of different types of double spend attacks, and eventually has to stop accepting 0-confirmation TXs. ;D
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paulie_w on March 10, 2013, 04:43:05 PM Why couldn't SatoshiDice, with their massive profits, build their own mining cluster (invest in lots of ASICS) so that they can keep adding their transactions into the block chain themselves, and run a number of full nodes as well? It seems more reasonable to ask them to do this then drop their TX's. We should be figuring out how to prevent spam from harming the system, not kicking SatoshiDice off it. this is a great solution Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 10, 2013, 04:50:48 PM When more miners refuse to mine and nodes refuse to reply SD TX, SD is exposed to much higher risk of different types of double spend attacks, and eventually has to stop accepting 0-confirmation TXs. ;D They already stopped sending 1 satoshi tx's, so to the ones who say the patches don't work, there's your answer. They will not change the way they do things if they don't feel the pressure. I bet Erik prefers to spend his half million dollars of SD profits travelling around the world, etc. but maybe he should spend at least $10k of it to improve the way his service uses the resources that belong to all of us and not just to SD. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: oleganza on March 10, 2013, 05:35:10 PM Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: marcus_of_augustus on March 10, 2013, 10:21:38 PM Why couldn't SatoshiDice, with their massive profits, build their own mining cluster (invest in lots of ASICS) so that they can keep adding their transactions into the block chain themselves, and run a number of full nodes as well? It seems more reasonable to ask them to do this then drop their TX's. We should be figuring out how to prevent spam from harming the system, not kicking SatoshiDice off it. this is a great solution No, a better solution would be if SatoshiDICE were to take all their transactions off-chain, or bundle them into a single hourly, daily transaction, etc ... just like a large, semi-trusted transactions clearer who had to pay true cost for transactions, i.e a bank or e-wallet might do. SatoshiDICE is free-loading off our cpu cycles and hard-drive space because the network is letting it. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: smtp on March 12, 2013, 08:39:04 PM Thanks psy, already looking for an easy way to patch bitcoin-qt (http://www.rugatu.com/questions/9625/how-to-easily-apply-a-source-patch-to-bitcoin-qt). Thanks psy, already looking for an easy way to patch ***'s brain. :->> smtp Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Quantus on March 13, 2013, 09:17:01 PM Just because SDice makes money by spamming the network with pointless transactions dose not mean its not an attack on the network.
If the CIA found a way to attack the Bitcoin network and make money doing it It's still an attack! We can filter the millions of pointless transactions or Do nothing and let the system deal with it as it was designed to. Its not a bad thing that the hard/soft limit has been reached. We just let the free market push SDice out of profitability with higher fees. But for this to happen we "the mining community" must stop the mining pools from rising the block header size. (this lowers fees and weakens the network opening it up to more spam.) It is the responsibility of the mining community to shame the large mining pools for their abhorrent actions over the past week. It is not their right to pull numbers out of there ass and set transaction fees for the whole network. It is the responsibility of every one who has a voice on this forum to voice there discontent towards any company intentionally or unintentionally harming the network. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 13, 2013, 09:26:24 PM Just because SDice makes money by spamming the network with pointless transactions dose not mean its not an attack on the network. If the CIA found a way to attack the Bitcoin network and make money doing it It's still an attack! We can filter the millions of pointless transactions or Do nothing and let the system deal with it as it was designed to. Its not a bad thing that the hard/soft limit has been reached. We just let the free market push SDice out of profitability with higher fees. But for this to happen we "the mining community" must stop the mining pools from rising the block header size. (this lowers fees and weakens the network opening it up to more spam.) It is the responsibility of the mining community to shame the large mining pools for their abhorrent actions over the past week. It is not their right to pull numbers out of there ass and set transaction fees for the whole network. It is the responsibility of every one who has a voice on this forum to voice there discontent towards any company intentionally or unintentionally harming the network. Have you read the news lately? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.0 Actually block size can't be raised at all due to software limitations, BDB libraries to be more precise. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Quantus on March 13, 2013, 09:32:10 PM Just because SDice makes money by spamming the network with pointless transactions dose not mean its not an attack on the network. If the CIA found a way to attack the Bitcoin network and make money doing it It's still an attack! We can filter the millions of pointless transactions or Do nothing and let the system deal with it as it was designed to. Its not a bad thing that the hard/soft limit has been reached. We just let the free market push SDice out of profitability with higher fees. But for this to happen we "the mining community" must stop the mining pools from rising the block header size. (this lowers fees and weakens the network opening it up to more spam.) It is the responsibility of the mining community to shame the large mining pools for their abhorrent actions over the past week. It is not their right to pull numbers out of there ass and set transaction fees for the whole network. It is the responsibility of every one who has a voice on this forum to voice there discontent towards any company intentionally or unintentionally harming the network. Have you read the news lately? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152030.0 Actually block size can't be raised at all due to software limitations, BDB libraries to be more precise. Yes I have read the news and the Fork was caused by the mining pools bending over backwards to serve the needs of one company SDice. The hubris of these individuals is amazing but it is possible to raise the block header size its only a matter of time before they try again. When more people are on 0.8 client they will surely go back and try again. We must not let this happen! Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 18, 2013, 09:56:31 PM Patch has been applied and "Advanced" tab created in GUI on bitcoin-qt 0.8, 3 commits to be more precise, and gives the ability to anyone select whatever transactions the want to relay. Please note your wallet will still accept those transactions in blocks mined by the network.
Check it out http://www.rugatu.com/questions/9887/how-much-do-you-know-programming-c Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: knightmb on March 18, 2013, 10:30:37 PM Patch has been applied and "Advanced" tab created in GUI on bitcoin-qt 0.8, 3 commits to be more precise, and gives the ability to anyone select whatever transactions the want to relay. Please note your wallet will still accept those transactions in blocks mined by the network. Won't this open the door to just setting your client to "relay nothing"? So what happens if a large enough group basically sets the client to run in "leech" mode?Check it out http://www.rugatu.com/questions/9887/how-much-do-you-know-programming-c "When everyone is looking for gold, it's a good time to be in the pick and shovel business." -Mark Twain Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 18, 2013, 10:35:57 PM Patch has been applied and "Advanced" tab created in GUI on bitcoin-qt 0.8, 3 commits to be more precise, and gives the ability to anyone select whatever transactions the want to relay. Please note your wallet will still accept those transactions in blocks mined by the network. Won't this open the door to just setting your client to "relay nothing"? So what happens if a large enough group basically sets the client to run in "leech" mode?Check it out http://www.rugatu.com/questions/9887/how-much-do-you-know-programming-c "When everyone is looking for gold, it's a good time to be in the pick and shovel business." -Mark Twain Have your read this whole thread... ? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: knightmb on March 18, 2013, 11:01:36 PM Have your read this whole thread... ? Yes I have. Have you? ;DTitle: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 18, 2013, 11:16:34 PM Have your read this whole thread... ? Yes I have. Have you? ;DYes sir, what have I missed? Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 19, 2013, 12:37:28 AM Submitted as pull request, please vote.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154682.0 Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 20, 2013, 12:25:05 AM I fully support this patch, but where can I download modified Bitcoin-Qt? Just don't tell me I need to compile it myself. :P You will have to compile it yourself, ofcourse. I don't want to force anyone to have such an option on their GUI, as it may get them offended for having the choice. You know it's always a mess when people need to use their brains and choose. They're used to have others who decide what's best for them. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: paraipan on March 20, 2013, 01:12:10 AM I fully support this patch, but where can I download modified Bitcoin-Qt? Just don't tell me I need to compile it myself. :P You will have to compile it yourself, ofcourse. I don't want to force anyone to have such an option on their GUI, as it may get them offended for having the choice. You know it's always a mess when people need to use their brains and choose. They're used to have others who decide what's best for them. Lol psy, accurate as always. I compiled my wallet a few days ago with the "Advanced" tab in the options. https://i.imgur.com/ySZKOkI.png SD addresses, hope I didn't miss any of them: Code: 1dice1Qf4Br5EYjj9rnHWqgMVYnQWehYG This is free market guys. They're bloating UTXO set at an increased pace and forcing everyone to keep up, so I'm ignoring their transactions exactly the same way we handle trolls on bitcointalk, pressing the "Ignore" button. If enough people do it they will be forced to reconsider, and work with the community not against it. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: K1773R on March 20, 2013, 08:15:43 AM You know it's always a mess when people need to use their brains and choose. They're used to have others who decide what's best for them. signed for usual humans :PTitle: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: MarlboroMan on March 20, 2013, 02:59:15 PM SD is spam for Blockchain, not only that its spam for the whole Bitcoin network. Im not sure the percentage of transactions that are SD related but im sure its over 60%
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Raoul Duke on March 20, 2013, 11:12:08 PM I fully support this patch, but where can I download modified Bitcoin-Qt? Just don't tell me I need to compile it myself. :P You will have to compile it yourself, ofcourse. I don't want to force anyone to have such an option on their GUI, as it may get them offended for having the choice. You know it's always a mess when people need to use their brains and choose. They're used to have others who decide what's best for them. For ones who don't know and don't want to know about compiling, there is no choice here whatsoever, just empty speech. Win32 install, .zip archive or patch didn't happened. Don't use windows. Can't compile it myself. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: SRoulette on March 27, 2013, 03:31:01 AM I am not sure why no one has mentioned it here. But starting today, Satoshi dice already changed its method of sending out 1 satoshi for confirming losing bet. Instead, they are now sending out 0.5% of bet amount back for losing bets, regardless of bet size. Given that minimum bet is 0.01 BTC, now all Satoshi Dice losing bet tx starts at 5000 satoshi and up. I presume that SD changed its policy due to the introduction of this patch here. They copied us :D how flattering: http://satoshiroulette.com/reverse-dice.php?mode=BTC It does make sense to avoid dust if you can. Copying the copiers, very meta :D . Now if they could fully come to the party with a 2nd game that optionally sends losing payouts ie: http://satoshiroulette.com/jackpot-dice.php?mode=BTC and encourage bots to use an API we might just see a drastic reduction in tx spam and at the same time reduced cost of betting for the gamblers :) Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: HorseRider on March 27, 2013, 03:36:03 AM SD is not a problem itself, but I think for the good of the community, SD better to find some better way to notify the gambler that they have lost the bet. For example, send every 500 notice or payout in a single transaction.
Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: SRoulette on March 27, 2013, 03:43:32 AM SD is not a problem itself, but I think for the good of the community, SD better to find some better way to notify the gambler that they have lost the bet. For example, send every 500 notice or payout in a single transaction. Due to their method of reusing the bet inputs in the payouts to avoid double spends they cannot do this. If they did a multi payout and one of the inputs was doublespent all payments in the multi payout would be invalidated. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: phathash on March 30, 2013, 07:55:08 AM We need to keep an open mind people. She has a sustainability plan.
Stock Photo - Open minded woman with green energy symbol http://www.canstockphoto.com/open-minded-woman-with-green-energy-6743883.html (http://www.canstockphoto.com/open-minded-woman-with-green-energy-6743883.html) http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/325834/325834,1291535863,7/stock-photo-open-minded-woman-with-green-energy-symbol-66541012.jpg Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: Luckybit on June 17, 2013, 08:48:20 PM Why would it cost 0.0000047? Who says the cost has to be that high? Do you have any real numbers showing how much it actually costs to do a transaction? And why not have 10 million people doing that? Don't you want bitcoin to grow? The idea that we should limit its growth seems absurd to me. You always want to limit the growth of an uneconomic activity. Even a loss leading item has to be economic when considered part of total inventory. 1 satoshi is ridiculously small. It is 0.5 millionths of a US$. If you had a music service where 10 million people bought single-tracks for 1 satoshi a time then you would earn $5 per day. This is 10 million transactions processed for $5 (ignoring costs and scope for profit). In four years Bitcoin has just processed 14 million transactions: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-total Could it have done that for $7 ?? Consider all the disk space across thousands of nodes, the hashing power used, electricity, IT work, bandwidth! Then your music "service" wants Bitcoin to process 10 million more transactions, every single day, for $5, customers are always good to have, right? Draw your own conclusions about what micro-transactions are realistic. What it costs in USD isn't what it costs everywhere in the world. It also isn't factoring in Moore's law and cheaper energy costs going into the future. You're thinking in $ when talking about what Bitcoin should become in the future and that might be the flaw. It's really a problem of physics and energy costs. Also you're putting the profits of miners above the function of the currency. If Bitcoin has to cater to miners this much then Proof of Stake is going to be the ultimate answer. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: ralree on June 18, 2013, 04:18:59 AM But I believe no one should have the power to control how one utilizes his or her resources. Wait, what? A person should not have the power to control their own resources? Who should? If I want to run a copy of the bitcoin client that doesn't relay 1dice transactions, I should be able to. Perhaps I'll run a copy of the client that doesn't relay your transactions. But as long as a majority of clients do relay these transactions (or the big pools clients don't bother to include them in blocks), this doesn't really do much good other than to make the transactions slightly slower AFAIK. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: solex on June 18, 2013, 09:44:20 AM What it costs in USD isn't what it costs everywhere in the world. It also isn't factoring in Moore's law and cheaper energy costs going into the future. You're thinking in $ when talking about what Bitcoin should become in the future and that might be the flaw. It's really a problem of physics and energy costs. Also you're putting the profits of miners above the function of the currency. If Bitcoin has to cater to miners this much then Proof of Stake is going to be the ultimate answer. Indeed. In the future, a few decades out, there might be lots of capacity for transactions which are sub-cent in real terms. However, this is certainly not the case today. Miners are everything to Bitcoin. They have to make a profit from the block reward plus fees to secure the blockchain and everyone's holdings. Yes, there is the alternative of ppcoin, and anyone who thinks this is the ultimate coin should check it out. For me, I am just happy that Bitcoin has a great future as it is currently designed, allowing for some software optimizations. Title: Re: Do you think SatoshiDice is blockchain spam? Drop their TX's - Solution inside Post by: allbiznessman on September 03, 2013, 06:41:09 PM I understand the issue at hand, but I believe this is the wrong solution. I have seen it from the side of being a Satoshi Dice user lately. I have had many transactions not accepted, and sent back, because I have been using the Blockchain.info Satoshi Dice send link, and even though I have my Blockchain.info wallet settings set on generous, they are still being rejected or taking forever. The problem is that the fees are too low for the size of the transactions being sent. I decided today, because I have one which isn't confirming, that I will start using the regular send link in the online wallet or sendtoaddress from bitcoind, and then set the fee higher rather than use the blockchain.info Satoshi Dice send link.
This is something that Blockchain.info needs to be informed of because I am sure they are the largest cause of this issue with that Auto Satoshi Dice send link because, as I have said about 80% of my bets have been getting rejected lately and that is with my settings on Generous Fee. I also think that there should be a set BTC fee/kb sent minimum if there is not, where you cannot even try to send a transaction with less than that amount of BTC fee for the size of transaction that you are sending. Obviously you can send more if you want to reward the miners, but there needs to be a minimum fee/kb especially with the BlockChain.info wallets. They have one set but it needs to be raised because it is BS when 80% of my transactions are being rejected when I have my fee setting at the highest. |
