Bitcoin Forum

We are going to live in the post-DAO world, whether Ethereum will be (hard or soft)-forked or not.

One of the most important questions hasn’t been answered by the inner circle of Ethereum. And it is not being asked loud enough even. The question is what’s inside the Gordian knot of corrupt ties in the inner Circle.

Former Ethereum members founded Slock.it startup. Then the Slock.it team started The DAO venture, partly in order to get funding for Slock.it itself. The DAO was supported by many Ethereum core team members, including Vitalik.

As a result, a lot of tough question to be asked after the DAO crash. Would be (hard or soft)-fork proposed by Ethereum team if no Ethereum members participation in The DAO? Who are in the inner circle? What are the names of other projects to be saved with a fork in case of disaster?

Fortunately, I am not in the Ethereum world at all, so I do not know answers. Hopefully, some investigative journalists will dig there.

What’s interesting to me is how to avoid dubious scenarios in the future. I think we need to consider some moral ground for core developers and foundation members.

At least, it must be prohibited to work for a blockchain core and any for-profit project built on top of that at the same time, or even for some time after exiting working for a core.

Sometimes developers and foundation members are working for other projects because it is nearly impossible to pay bills developing a core product. For example, I left Nxt mostly because of pretty small rewards. For a developer with vast experience it is easy to find well-paid job. And core development requires highly skilled developers. So it is not easy to get away from multi-million ICOs. Highly-skilled developers team, security audits, consultations with academias and so on could not be cheaper than couple of USD millions. I don’t know about marketing, but I suspect it is not cheaper.

However, spendings must be transparent. Key meetings must be transparent as well, considerations behind key decisions should be described in details.

We need to re-consider governance models, again.

P.S. This post reflects my personal position only.

P.P.S. The title resembles “The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work” by P. Rogaway

I wish Spoetnik and other critics of ICOs would realize you can't build s/w like Bitcoin with volunteers.

Bitcoin wasn't built by a lone Japanese guy in his basement. It was built by the DEEP STATE as a TrojanHorse in the coming global sovereign debt collapse and the lurch to digital currency and a one-world reserve currency controlled by the global elite. The DEEP STATE has at least the $4 trillion Black Budget that is stolen from the USA DoD as admitted by for example Donald Rumsfeld.

Idiots who think s/w can be built with volunteers don't seem to understand that all major open source projects are corporate funded.

Jesus those have to be some good drugs man. Deep state?

It's interesting to note that the author of the above comment is the (former?) employer of the OP, kushti.

"Drugs"? What is your issue man?

The problem is you don't see the obvious categorization here, private money vs public money.  The Federal Reserve currently lends debt based money into existence and charges you interest to use it.  This is obviously private money and detrimental to anyone that's suckered into using it when it's clearly neo-feudalism through usury.  Gold?  Anyone can find it if they try hard enough.  There's no strings attached to it.  It's not debt based.  It's not issued by a central authority.  It's not possible to be extorted by interest or devaluation by some unknown party just by picking it up.  It's permissionless, public money.

The same dynamic exists in cryptocurrency.  IPO scamcoins are essentially directly replicating the Federal Reserve banks, in that they're attempting to charge you to utilize their private money system.  Even if you remove the interest or devaluation aspects, it's still a system of extortion.  Pay me to use my money.  Private money.  It is capitalism, but it's also subjecting yourself to be someone's slave where they make the rules and you're there to benefit them at your own expense.

In traditional Bitcoin PoW, the block reward does not benefit the issuer, so there is no master and slave dynamic.  It's public money, just like gold.  Everything else that deviates from this model where the issuer benefits is just a flat out extortion scheme.  I'm sorry all of you people want to get paid, but it's not possible in this domain unless you willingly become an extortionist scammer.  The reason this forum exists is for the facilitation of public money to defeat those private money scams.

You obviously don't have much reading comprehension. It was in reference to the bad shit crazy post above mine. Alex and I have a great relationship. Try again son.

You obviously don't know how to quote as you didn't do that.  I see you now edited your post.  Congratulations, daughter!

Is Bill Moyers on drugs?

http://billmoyers.com/episode/the-deep-state-hiding-in-plain-sight/

Is this the same Charles who once told me that everyone knows (speculates) that the NSA created Bitcoin? Did you conveniently forget you used to think that, somewhere along your journey  ???

Cripes man, I was supporting your employee's position on the necessity to raise funds to fund the development of block chain software.

I've never in my entire life tried the class of "drugs" you are alluding to, unless you count the very few times I took sleeping pills in my 30s, the Codeine I took when my wisdom teeth were extracted, and the high powered morphine analog I was given only twice (two 3 hours respites from 4 days of nonstop huffing and puffing burning like hell inside) during the acute peptic ulcer ICU hospitalization in 2012.


Btw, perhaps you've detected that I really don't support governance as a solution. I believe in the "code is the law" and finding solutions other than Foundations and governance. So perhaps that might be a reason for lack of harmony between our respective plans and platforms. I am not sure about that, because I can't read your mind. Just saying.

Edit: also that doesn't mean I entirely reject Bitcoin. Even badly intentioned things can sometimes be leveraged for good outcomes, or even the good can be intentionally obscured within the bad because often people disobey their orders when they feel it is necessary to do so. And I expect the reality is multifarious. We each speak from a perspective of it.

From my perspective, Bitcoin is clearly designed to co-opt traditional finance powers at the nation-state level, i.e. disposable nation-state central banks and too-big-to-fail banks. And the control of Bitcoin is shifting to the Chinese miners and mining farms.

@OP
Well said !
I agree and wish i had some input on that for you.. but i don't.

@roach i agree with what you said entirely.
Although it was a rather wordy complicated advanced comment LOL
I think i got most of it.. the usual guys here know i got the basics of the
US FED Reserve memorized ;)
But i think you all have poured more time & effort into thinking about it than i ever have.
Some of the info i seen came from Documentaries and..
As a Canadian this gave me some insight into how it works "over there"
I am telling you all this because.. you can then see what i saw !

For example i watched this.. "Money for Nothing Inside the Federal Reserve - Jim Bruce 2013.mkv" 1.59gb
Mentions the housing bubble + recession stuff & the Federal Reserve
And goes into stuff such as regulations & quantitative easing etc
All in an easy to digest manner.. not too dumb down or to advanced.
(i got it via Piracy Torrent sites a couple years back in 2013)

When you dive into advanced topics with massive walls of text using "big words"
all of crypto tunes you out.. then they go and buy scammy ass ICO coins.

I have been harping on you guys for ages to "dumb it down" for the masses
and yes sometimes even for me because you guys get REALLY fucking carried away
with the tech babble jerk off Mr. Smart Guy crap ROFL

So..
I don't care if people think they deserve to paid
..then want to rig the system / currency to pay themselves.
It's scammy period.
Sorry Shelby i am not bending on that rule.

There is sources that can and do release fair projects out there around the globe
and they do not NEED to scam us to launch them.
This delusion that it is a necessity to take your cut or the project can not be completed is bullshit.
THEN DON'T DO IT !
Leave it to someone who CAN !
Do not create the problem to sell me a fix basically..

It's real simple don't release scammy shit.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION THAT IS ACCEPTABLE
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BAD BEHAVIOR

"BAD IS BAD" i have said here for years.
Apparently you guys think you can "Justify" bad behavior somehow.. NOPE !

You *WANT* money is not an excuse for ..anything.
Spare me the charade
..none of these ICO's ever launched needed even a small fraction of what they got etc.

Satoshi ?
I lean towards the guy being a group but i do consider still it may have been one guy with some help too.
I don't know.. i have done research and it's tough to say really.

Anyway people don't want to touch this issue they go silent fast..
I am surprised anyone at all replied..
It seems we have so many people in Crypto that ETH got a market cap worth 1 Billion $
But when you start talking about morality the whole entire god damn scene vanishes hiding under their bed.
hmm i wonder why ? LOL

---

EDIT:
I sure as hell don't think clandestine sub-groups of the US Govt or NWO "MADE" Bitcoin.

So who in hell had the $millions it cost to develop Bitcoin to risk on some unproven decentralized concept?

Take yourself back to 2007 or 2008 when the first stages of development likely began. Not many investors would have had any confidence that an electronic money scheme could work. Chaum's ecash had failed.

Heck even years later after Bitcoin was launched, 10,000 BTC was only exchangeable for a pizza. Hindsight is 20/20 vision. Try to really put yourself back 8 years and think who would've invested $millions in creating Bitcoin?

And look at what Bitcoin is designed to disrupt economically. And look how Bitcoin's economics was intentionally designed to become centralized on mining farms. And don't tell me that Satoshi didn't know that because not only did he write that he expected that, but Nick Szabo had also written years before that ASICs would take over any such scheme.

This is the same as when I got banned for speaking out against Ethereum (wonder who paid off the mods for that one?). The capacity for delusion and ignoring basic facts possessed by the guys on BCT knows no boundaries.

Yet according to Charles I am "batshit crazy". Yet he is one of the founders of this Ethereum debacle. He claims (in his recent video) he got kicked out of Ethereum because of he wanted stronger governance, stricter budgets, and more regulatory complaint ICO, yet no where has he admitted that I told him frankly that Turing-complete scripting would be a clusterfuck (in spite of gas limitations on how long a script can run).

Honestly back in those days I politely told Charles that I couldn't start a project with him at that time. Because frankly speaking I could see he was going to stuff any project with too many mouths to feed instead of hunkering down and focusing on the work to be done. So I kindly told him, "I am not ready to do some big ICO thing, go forth without me". So now Charles is this big TedTALK personality and I am batshit crazy. Ain't it nice how it works out that way. We also learned in Charles' recent video that he is the one who hooked up the Chinese money with the ProtoShares ICO.

Let's not forget that recently kushti (and Charles' company) were trying to re-start my proof-of-diskspace concept that I had invented in 2013 and had abandoned because I realized it was insolubly flawed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1501211.msg15295133#msg15295133). Perhaps they are pissed off because I explained to them again (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13650450#msg13650450) that was a flawed direction for them to not pursue. Maybe they intended to raise a lot of money again with a flawed technology.

Charles, so who is "bat shit crazy" here?

Be careful with your mouth Charles. I've respected the confidence of other things you've told me. Don't push me. I empathized with you. I never thought you were like this. Now I know.

Are you pissed off because I criticized Russian scammers in the thread you started about how WAVES was using your company assets without your permission?  (and no it doesn't mean I discriminate any ethnicity, cripes!) Cripes I supported you in that thread also. And now we see that maybe WAVES has already scammed.


And then you posted this in thread I started about the potential legal quagmire for Vitalik and Tual, which sure seemed like another attack on me:


And it was hilarious when you subsequently a day later used my legality thoughts (from entire thread quoted) in your "Thoughts on the DAO" blog post.

So then maybe you were pissed off, because I responded to that thread you started by disagreeing with talk about needing governance and all that jizz and stated the real issue is "NO FORKS!":

I have been "speaking out" against Ethereum and the staff here never banned me man..
I suspect it was because of other reason(s) you won't or can't admit ?
I have no idea..

US Black budget groups made Bitcoin ?
It might be time to see a shrink or lay off the "Conspiracy Theory With Jesse Ventura" TV episodes ;)
You would not need THAT much money to code a wallet and launch it with some community support.
Besides..
Where is some tangible evidence ?
We have pretty much none on the Bitcoin inventor as it is ..never mind implicating the US govt.

Don't get me wrong i have railed on BILLIONS of times against the USA's govt.
I am no fan of theirs and i think they are drunk with power & out of control..
And i do think some of the US govt conspiracy theories out there are plausible *enough*
So if there was something for me to go on i would be able to listen and consider the concept.
Sorry i just don't see it..

How certain are you that some branch of the US govt created Bitcoin ? 100% ?
Absolute guaranteed ?
I see things like that as a scientific examination / test.
If you have no smoking gun or concrete proof then there can not be a 100% certainty.
We don't have that tangible proof so how can you say it is proven 100% guaranteed ?
This shouts insanity to us all.. a mental problem sorry to say.

It could not have been made with out the Financial power of a govt the size of the USA ?
It *required* the agenda & backing of a world player govt ?

I think it was some guy(s) who had an idea and had worked on it over the years.
You said yourself there was others before BTC came along.. people have thought of the idea for decades !

---

EDIT:

Although i was just banned right now on the Freenode ethereum channel.
I had not said anything in an hour and last just posted a couple topic links from here into there.
Random ban by "chanserv"
They are scammy ass cowardly pieces of shit LOL

Would "they" ban a drunk homeless man from the alley way nearest to the Capitol, for wailing incessantly, "Michelle is a HIV-positive, male ICO!"?


Because my arguments have more technological bite than yours. They can deal with you by promoting your reputation. See all that red they put on you (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524498.msg15341330#msg15341330). Attacking my reputation doesn't really work. I even attack my own reputation. You've seen the photo of "my" balls right? (even it was stated that wasn't my balls, but let's not engorge on irrelevant details)


Like I said, your arguments are grasping for technological coherence.


I did not implicate the USA govt.

The entire point of Bill Moyers' DEEP STATE presentation is that the USA govt is not in control of the USA.

Satoshi exited after he found out Gavin would be talking to the CIA. So it wasn't the "USA govt" who created Bitcoin.

You don't find it peculiar that no one can find a trace on the "man". Who besides government secret agents are able to accomplish that when everyone is searching for them ("him")  ???


Bill Moyers and the guy who did the research on the DEEP STATE are mainstream and highly respected. That guy was in a high position in the government.

I did not claim it is falsifiable. I am applying Occam's Razor. It is quacks and walks like a duck, maybe it is a duck. Okay maybe it could be a Spoetnik penguin. So admit you really created Bitcoin didn't ya?  :-\

Please don't use the words "see a shrink" or "batshit crazy" with impunity. Real sane people actually get committed to mental institutions and forcibly enslaved. It is not a joke. I really don't appreciate it.

(not that anyone will ever take me alive in an illegal entrapment, because I am a Cherokee indian and I will die on the spot preempting any unjust attempt to take my freedom)

Funding the development of a block chain technology doesn't mean the block chain issues all the money supply by paying the developers.

For example, Ethereum was funded with an ICO, but issuance of the money continued by proof-of-work.

Even Charles claimed in his recent video, that he had favored the funding the Ethereum corporation with venture capital instead of an ICO (but he was overruled), so then none of the money supply would have been issued by the developers.

But I will agree with you on one aspect, which is that if ICOs hand too much control to one group, then they can continue to influence the project and system which sort of makes them rulers akin to a Federal Reserve. We see this effect recently with Vitalik using his influence to propose forks. And we may be seeing this with WAVES or other ICOs having too much control over the float (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524111.msg15340159#msg15340159).


Gold is not permissionless. You need a license to mine it in most instances. You pay taxes when you mine it. Increasingly so it is becoming dangerous to carry it with you for the government will just seize it and say you are trafficking it for criminal intent.

And besides, who the fuck has time to go mine gold. And it isn't currency, because virtually no one accepts it.


That is not the case if the developers raised funding, but don't control the ongoing issuance via proof-of-work and if the source code is open source so anyone can fork if they aren't satisfied with the attributes of the protocol.


The slave is everyone who doesn't own an ASIC farm, while they pay $50 per BTC, we pay $600 per BTC.

Sorry your logic is REKTED by reality.

Proof-of-work just trades one set of owners for another set of owners. Chinese mining oligarchy owns Bitcoin. We pay them $550 per Bitcoin. Enjoy your delusion.


It is not different for Bitcoin. The Chinese are extorting us.

Fact is that no alternative will be developed without funding.
 
So please come of your "Holier than thou" Mundero "voluntears" high chair (that you've been promoting after buying it) and take off your bib and stop yammering like your were born 6 months ago.

Roach, good observations and strong points!

Does it mean that only Bitcoin is a good basis for social projects, all other currencies are "private" ones? The holders of currencies will benefit and all other participants will loose sooner or later.

I'm rather new to the topic, so sorry if my question is stupid one.

r0ach is just trying to sell you Monero proof-of-work bagholding that he bought. His logic is incorrect. See my detailed rebuttal immediately above yours.

The simplest explanation is *USUALLY* the correct one means USUALLY.. not ALWAYS.

And you Bill Byrne'd me LOL
He knows a guy who knows a guy "who said"
That is NOT proof.

Is there some conspiracy after Bitcoin was launched ? i bet yes !
We know the FBI had a pow wow with the dude getting 900k a year.

You do realize the topic is morality and you have once again veered off into the bushes gone 4 by'in right ?

I did not mean to insult you just point out how you seem to be oblivious to things on a level.
A tendency to plow on hard & stubborn on tangents never letting up.
They say you were banned for criticizing Ethereum here.
Which is WHY i brought up that i just got banned on their IRC channel.
It was not a pissing contest to see who's opinion is smarter or more feared.
But a correlation and assertion that THEY are scared Frauds.. unwilling to accept criticism.
Worth pointing out i was not doing squat.. they banned me for some past commentary i guess.
I only noticed because i was afk for hours and my ICON flashed telling me something was said.

Cryptsy did the same thing too.. bans all round.. just delayed out of context & random.
I had mentioned before the Cryptsy Points hack incident because that is how the story was relayed to me..
Those were the words people used when they told me the story i passed along over here on the forum
..from the Troll-Box.
Jim Shockney showed up here on the forum and flipped out demanding i was a liar and there was no hack.
and that they had never been hacked.. time stamps show Paul Vernon saying they were hacked even worse
before the points hack and i think JShock was in on it or knew about it.
So he was lying.. but they gave me a 1 year chat ban anyway (for my choice of words here)
When all i did was relay what i had heard from chat box users the next day.. when i went to Cryptsy.
And.. it did happen too !
They rolled back the markets and mentioned it on their Twitter so YES it DID happen.
SO no i never lied about squat.. and they were hacked.. more than once !
if you believe they were hacked for 12.5 million then shut down.. i think Paul stole the money.
So that would be 1 fake hack and 1 real hack LOL

Who are they scared of Shelby ?
I don't know..
Who is smarter ? seems your hinting at that LOL
Who is the smarter guy here Shelby ? Me or You ?

Look left bud.. see a Penguin with an Ak47 ?  8)
Do i look "banned" to you ?  ;D

There's the strict evidence against the conspiracy theory. That is the original Bitcoin code: https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive . The problem, it is vulnerable as hell and so not usable at all. If we want to build something reasonably safe and useful in an observable time(12-18 months) that requires a lot of money.

Do we have the changesets for the changes from the November 2008 source code:

https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive/tree/master/nov08

To the v0.1 January 2009 source code:

https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive/tree/master/bitcoin0.1

So we can see who did most of the work on the source code?

Has any one estimated the man-hours for those changes in that 2.x month timespan?

Remember my point was that it required $millions to develop Bitcoin into reliable system over that 12-18 month timespan. And apparently Gavin is very close with the CIA. Who was funding that early development and why. Bitcoin was only worth less than 10,000 BTC per pizza.

And so we do agree we can't develop something like Bitcoin without $millions of investment. It can't be done a lone Japanese guy in his basement.

ETH will collapse if the FED ever had to raise rates again. ETH is pumped up by cheap money and user to value ratio is the worst in crypto. Meaning the price per head that owns ETH is higher then any other coin.

Most of Bitcoin core developers and the Foundation are utterly corrupted. Core devs are building startups on top of Bitcoin(Blockstream, Bloq etc) or serving companies around it. The blocksize drama happened mostly because of different devs lobbying different corporate interests. I think there's no reason to explain how miserable Bitcoin Foundation history is.  So Bitcoin in fact is pretty bad example for "public money" concept. Other than that, I see your point and found it quite interesting.

Well of course we all see the point and interest in the concept of "public money". But that is irrelevant if we have no way to achieve it. I can find unicorns interesting also.

Do you have any ideas about how to solve the centralization of mining problem which prevents all block chains from achieving that ideal?

No-no, I'm not in the position to buy anything :)

Just investigating if cryptocurrecy could be used to implement time=money concept for social projects, that have no resources to afford significant investments.

Some type of Negative Feedback such as a decline in amount or a freezing the amount in place for extended periods of time when they become too centralized to allow others to catch up.
Tricky part is whatever Negative feedback system you put in place, many will attempt to circumvent.
One Negative feedback would be when a miner rate is too high, is to automatically have his new coins split up and spread among all wallets so he ends up working for everyone not just himself.
Creating a negative feedback that no one can bypass will be the hard part.

Tie the negative feedback to a wallet, they will use multiple wallets.  :P

Just a thought , Maybe if you linked the wallet address to an IP address , you could enforce some type of negative feedback.
If they try to use that wallet on another IP address, the system would refuse it for ~72 hours or so, therefore helping enforce whatever penalty you place on them.

Anyway good luck with it.  :)


 8)

Then you just end up making a Rube Goldberg permissioned ledgerr.  In the real world, force is the final arbiter of consensus, which is why Bitcoin is based on the same principle.  PoW is just a wargame exercise moved from physical to digital space.  It works because force, violence, whatever you want to call it, always trumps reputation, age, or any other variable.  

Since Satoshi didn't and can't solve Byzantine generals, the only way the system can work is leveraging the variable of confirmations, which has no upper limit, with an open entropy source to make it impossible for a permanent monopoly of block validators from occuring over a long enough timeline.  

Get rid of perputal mining, then you have a permissioned ledger falling under the privatized vs public money aspect.  Get rid of the unbounded entropy source, then your confirmations go from useful to worthless.

@roach your talking to kids.. clutching Bitcoin for Profit.
..i say again.

You NEED your message to get through to the masses and they are dumb.

2nd of all..

@Shelby
i don't buy it at all *still*
And to be honest i don't think you have experience coding that is relevant to gauge what is capable.
I do.

My resume is rather long and i am known around the planet for many of my projects.
So which of my past projects do i shove in your face to prove you wrong here & now ?
Let's start with my File Sharing Project.

It is zipped up with max compression in the order of 2 gb's if i recall correctly.
It is a project that has many thousands & thousands of source code files.
I made a MOD ..a program based on other peoples code.
the Original program was called eMule.
Point being is none of us got a cent for it.. ever.
Even though you keep posting here "World class dev's won't work for less than 250k a year"
BULL MOTHER FUCKING SHIT !

You are clueless.
Your perception + your sense of entitlement and your own coding skills
dictate there MUST be a conspiracy..
And i say you are probably wrong.. unlike you i don't say that with full 100% certainty.
You *could* be right i don't have proof either way.. but neither do you claiming a guarantee 100%
See how proof works ? yet ?

Bitcoin played out just like another project or two of mine..
The "Steam Emulator"
A friend of mine wrote the first few lines of code and then a few of us wrote shit loads more.
NOW these days it's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge massive project !
And no none of us ever got a cent for it bud  ::)

Believe it or not people work for free.. you clearly do not understand that.

I did not just code a steam emulator but i also made Steam Cracks.
Pre-patched binaries or various types of crack/emulator combo's ..all kinds of shit.
I was telling a guy on IRC yesterday i have my name in the credits for the popular most used one right now.
Because he took all of my shit and used it as the base for his current work.
So..
When you look NOW at some of these projects you would wonder how all that code got written.
Simple.. a handful of people contributed over a spam of time.
And i know myself i have had long periods where i could sit at home coding.
I started doing many of these projects i mentioned back in 2003 roughly.
Back then i owned & operated a computer repair business and was self employed for about 5 years.
I needed something to do while i installed Windows updates on noobs PC's LOL
so yeah i had a "little* free time  :D

Another big project i made on my own was a software program for Windows.
I created a program that had a GUI so you can use it to install free unlimited content on your phone.
But first i had to crack the phone's protection.. and "experts" online said it was impossible.
They had told me it was impossible because of DRM etc.
They were 101% wrong !
It had nothing what so ever to do with DRM but simply a matter of finding the correct structure
of the database file format the phone used to keep track of app's & games installed.
So i had to figure that out.. and then create a program that would basically take apart
the db then add or subtract to it then reassemble it in memory then write it to the hard drive.
..so it could be installed back on the phone with the new app's or game's.
And by the way i was told IMPOSSIBLE !
And it turned out to be a simple fix.. so i laughed at them all then did the "impossible" then rubbed it in their nose.

And.. no one on earth ever did do what i did then a decade ago or now.. only me !
So take your pic bud.. either you are smarter than me or i got lucky or what ?
Am i rare ? Either way your commentary is looking like dog shit about now guy LOL
And back then i had been working construction trade shit in the winter on & off..
So i had free time or worked on my pet project after i got off work.. by myself !

Put it back in your pants kids.. don't bother loitering around here jerking off like the smart guy.

The reality is you don't need a quarter million dollar salary to get big coding projects done.
That assumption leading to a conspiracy by whom ever is just fucking stupid.
And if there is or was a conspiracy AFTER the fact then it doesn't count.
Know the difference between before & after smart guys ?

PS:
Yeah i still have all my source code to every project i ever coded.
Gigs & gigs worth LOL

---

EDIT:
And thanks for sucking me into your off-topic stubborn argument game too bud LOL

Correct. So please don't hype another insecure (against such force) $million mcap proof-of-work coin on us just because you baghold it.

And do note that in Satoshi's design that force is who ever has the economy-of-scale (and political connections) (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984) to obtain the subsidies for ASIC mining farms with cheap/free electricity charged to the State. For the moment, that is in China.

So thanks for admitting we (the people) are fucked if we do (choose proof-of-work distribution), and fucked if we don't (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1524111.msg15340159#msg15340159).

But I will actually be offering a solution, instead of trying to just deny (or sweep under the rug) the reality as you and others do.

Well screw it i might as well keep going off topic if you all are..
(as usual around here)

Like anyone has the slightest interest in talking about morality around here anyway.
Or much else.. You all just focus hard on pushing your own agenda's

Speaking of agenda's..

Why is it the Chinese dominating Bitcoin mining if it was a clandestine Conspiracy NWO agenda thing ?
Or are the Chinese apart of the conspiracy too ?

Seems to me if it required MILLIONS of dollars for your secret group to build & launch Bitcoin
they would have made a bit of effort to mine it ROFL
..or was that part of the master plan too.. launch it then lure China into dominating mining ?

People talk a lot of shit..
Some big shot running his mouth does not amount to fuck all.

So don't bother feeding me the Bill Byrnes / Alex Jones "i know a guy who said.." bullshit.
FACTS ..are indisputable.
So where the fuck are they ?
If you have tangible real proof then by all means throw it on the table.
But spare me the i know important people who told me routine.

And Shelby i did not bother reading your last reply either but i am willing to i bet anything
i know what angle you would have pushed *if* you replied back to what i said earlier.
I often already know what you are all going to say & do before you do !
..you're all predictable.

Yes millions of lines of code written + reverse engineering is a lot of work.
The project(s) i have been involved with make Bitcoin look like kids play.
THINKING you know what a big project is and taking part in coding one from scratch are two different things.
I watched a few lines of code turn into a million..
You can "think" what ever you want.

Jumping to conclusions and assuming things and stealing famous quotes from German scientists used in the movie contact is not going to prove fuck all to me though honey.

Unlike some people i have an account here and am not claiming the forum has a conspiracy against me.
And unlike some people i actually have wrote SHIT LOADS of code.
Some people are skilled at hitting the quote button LOL

My resume is looooooooooooooooooooooooong

I have code commits in HL2's Zip library found on Codeprojecty.com
as well as lots of fixes & improvements that ended up on other peoples projects.
(Yes i contributed code to HL2 and cracked it and had it pre'd)
I played CSS before anyone in the public.. know De_Piranesi was the fist CSS map ?
I was in the Steam 500 person beta i think it was (invite only)
And on the forums back then before the public even knew it existed.

I also cracked and released Valve Cafe software and shared it online. (as well as Steam lots)
While playing Cracked CSS before it was out to the public with cracker friends on cracked servers.
(before 1 bit of code touched public hands)
Our IRC channel back then was a tad popular lets just say LOL
Gabe etc knows me LOL
(If he reads this ? go eat more chicken fat fuck)  :D

When C# .NET v1.0 came out i notified and argued and won with mouthy MS idiots about a bug.
I told them you could not create an empty string value with the registry code.
I was right !
Even though they tried to beat off on me with the cocky snotty attitude BS arguing when they were wrong.

I bought a Sansa Fuze+ mp3 player and was not happy with how it used MTP for transferring music.
SO i coded my own god damn MTP musc transfer tool for windows.
But this time i added support for the Album year (unlike every other implementation i ever seen)

I have coded coin-miners here shared on the forum..
Hell i created the first GUI miner.
I took Cudaminer then rewrote the whole entire damn thing into an MFC based GUI program.
I tested it and it worked but i kept wanting to tinker with internal mining code.
So the GUI stuff got less of a priority then i realized it was not worth the hassle.
It was Windows / Nvidia only and the UI was MFC so it would be no good for NIX.

I cracked Mikrotix Router OS (Linux) so it was free and used it for years on my own series of rack mount switches etc at home..
Crack any Linux apps lately ? I crack Linux Operating systems.. and Android App's too now LOL
..write any SMALI lately ? I have !

Cracking ?
Hell i installed custom firmware on my own cable modem LOL
How ? I made a JTAG Cable and flashed it..
How ? I grabbed a printer cable and a big knife & soldering iron ;)
..then slashed it up re-wired the wire plugged into into my serial port
then i soldered it to the circuit board of my Moto Surfboard.. and yeah it DID work  8)
(i heard a rumor you could get free internet access via DOCSIS exploits)

I also cracked the firewall blinking in my tray right now on windows..
I keygen'd it 3 ways in Different languages.. c.. c++ and csharp with & with out GUI's
I also patched the csharp binaries and posted a tutorial the dev who made it got mad at me over LOL
He ran his mouth at me so i uploaded a shit load of code + tutorials on how to patch+keygen his app.
..he cried like a fucking bitch ahahhaha

A bunch of programs out in the wild i have cracked and uploaded
..or games
I was in a PC game cracking group and had my work "pre'd" and used by many.

Trust me i could go on ;)

But YOU KNOW BETTER huh ?

mmkthen big shot LOL

PS:
The hardest part of the P2P file sharing mod i made was making the worlds first 64 bit mod.
I had to go through about 20 3rd party libs that were each massive.. and port them all to x64 code.
I did and it worked flawless and i wrote tighter code than a cats ass in a room full of dogs.
Warnings in Visual Studio ? NOT when i code mother fuckers ;)

I can keep going all the way back to the mid 80's when i had a TRS-80 i played "PC Games" on cassette tapes with..
and yeah even older coding (that doesn't count because it was so damn lame way back LOL)
blah blah blah i coded basic or some shit right ? matters ? lol no

I wonder how much work you can get done while hanging out here talking shit all the time ?
I guess smoothie knows with his 2 Monero commits LOL
Or..
Guys who hang out here talking about their future super coin that will end all coins ROFL
.when they are not banned that is  ;D

Crypto-Pundits  :D

oh and bragging ?
i EXPECT you guys masquerading around here all the time as being oh so smart to get WHY .

..so what have you blow-hard's done ? (aside from hang around here running your mouth)

Yes you did tell me this a long time ago as did Adam Back and many others. Smart contracts can be written correctly if they are done carefully and using formal methods such as the recent attempts via the Chalmers Master's Thesis using Idris [http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/234939/234939.pdf (http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/234939/234939.pdf)]. We both now about my love of functional languages, type theory and formal methods.

One of my strongest disagreements about the development of Ethereum was the philosophy behind their smart contracts. I always felt they should have been done in a DSL like what the Tezos fellows have done: https://tezos.com/language.txt (https://tezos.com/language.txt)


There was no hiding that Bitfund funded Invictus Innovations. This was known since Danny Bradbury's article in mid-2013 [http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/ (http://www.coindesk.com/bitshares-p2p-trading-platform-to-offer-dividends-on-bitcoins/)]. Bo Shen alongside others worked to develop out the Bitshares community in China. They did a very good job as Bitshares became quite popular there.


Proof of retrievability has been around since at least 2008 [https://eprint.iacr.org/2008/175.pdf (https://eprint.iacr.org/2008/175.pdf)] and since that time a lot of really great progress has been made via the use of dynamic erasure codes and other methods. It's a worthwhile field of inquiry if not for a consensus algorithm, then for other optimizing improvements to cryptocurrencies.



Threatening people who disagree with you doesn't make your argument stronger. I do apologize if I offended you with my jestful comment. You're a very smart person mint and while someone who worked with the NSA could have- and probably had- some relationship with the creation of Bitcoin, I think it's utterly unreasonable to state it was a deep government conspiracy. There isn't any evidence that would point in that direction and furthermore there is counter evidence given the origins of the project.


I do appreciate your support in that respect. What bothered me the most about Waves wasn't the use of open source code, but rather that they listed our employees as members of their team without even discussing it with us. Then marketers for Waves started posting our whitepapers as if they are in some way affiliated with Waves. When I said stop doing this, Sasha told his people I was delusional and then they started posting links about me being pushed out of Ethereum as part of a discrediting campaign.

Okay Charles thanks for de-escalation. I agree. Why are we fighting.

I tried to inform you in Skype that I was very ill (something Multiple Sclerosis symptoms which causes a change in behavior and mental capacity ... it's mostly a struggle for energy). You should take that into account when judging my posting activity in 2015 and early part of 2016. There is a significant improvement in my health over the past couple of months, especially in the past few weeks. (high dosage curcumin & sublingual oregano oil, after all the laundry list of treatments I tried the past 4 years)

As for tech, that is a longer discussion for another day, but I don't entirely disagree on anything you wrote. Meaning there is some agreement on those points.

I didn't realize it had gotten quite that bad. I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling better.

You say permission ledger like it actually means anything, when it fact it means nothing.
We covered that issue, and it is a falsehood, iamnotback even explained to you how gold mining requires permission and you still cling to your false hood.
Once again, every monetary system requires permission  , even if that permission is given by the mere lack of enforcement.

Plus your entropy argument is also asinine , for even the Multiverse is a closed system.

Some form of negative consequences is the only way to make iamnotback attempt to block people from dominating a coin, at least the only one I can see.
If you have a better idea post it.

 8)

FYI:
Personally and I know some others here don't share this view point.
Proof of Stake solves this issue for me , because a person has to sell his coins to get something else,
which will decrease his future earning capacity and help decentralize.
(However in r0ach's dream world no one ever has to sell coins to get food , clothing or shelter.)

The Problems arise when you allow monopolies / cartels to say who may or may not provide a product or service.
Or a Government uses Taxation or Political laws to gain majority ownership of any resource.

That is an intuitive way to explain a Nash equilibrium. There are only negative consequences to taking any but the one optimum strategy.

The way I see it, Satoshi's proof-of-work system has a Nash equilibrium over any nearby period of time, but the long-term strategy is to amass economies-of-scale. We need a negative consequence to counter act that long-term strategy.

We also need to do something about the excessive power consumption compared to the transaction rate. <conspiracy asshat>A Chinese mining oligarchy (with conspiracy-oriented conjectured State subsidies) is one way to de-escalate the arms race over hashing because everyone else becomes unprofitable, but it violates Nash equilibrium (well it doesn't anymore once the oligarchy capture is absolute).</conspiracy asshat>

Barring a solution for proof-of-work, others might argue that DPOS is a better tradeoff to the Troika of SegWit, Sidechains, and Lightning Networks. Frankly I haven't really compared them with a fine toothed comb. Perhaps Charles' IOHK has or will. Maybe Sidechains is orthogonal to the discussion of consensus or maybe not.


To anyone suffering insomnia, auto-immunity, peripheral neuropathy, loss of motor function in the legs/feet, and low energy (chronic fatigue, brain fog, etc), try before sleeping digesting 1 tablespoon of curcumin daily mixed with some cooking oil (or much more tasty in coconut milk). And diluted sublingual oregano oil under the tongue in very high dosages (you can't really overdose) swallowed after a few minutes. The wild greek oregano oil is the best with low thymol content. Expect to have rashes and other die off effects. You may feel worse for some weeks before you improve. Expect to sleep a lot.

You're actually broaching some kind of conflict-of-interest regulatory regime. Sorry about putting it this way, but Ethereum itself is showing the feasibility of such a regime at the blockchain level. Ethereum's brag - that they can neatly excise an illicit transaction from the blockchain because Ethereum's blockchain is ledger-like rather than filled with chains of tx outputs leading back to the genesis block - does imply that a regulatory body can order a tx reversal with little disturbance to the blockchain as a whole.

"You guys did it for The DAO; why not help out again?"


Somewhat resignedly, I think that's they way it's going to go. When you meet the mainstream, you meet the demands of the mainstream - and in financial matters, the mainstream considers "regulated" to be less unsafe than "unregulated." The recent scandals have not pierced the mainstream's faith in government; they've just impugned the people in charge of the system. That's one big reason why Donald Trump won the Republican nomination. One of his main themes is that America is hurt because "we have very stupid people" in charge. Implying, things will go all right if "we" have "smart" people in charge of the current system.

By all means, keep discussing it at the moral level but please be aware of the unintended consequences that will come with mainstreamization of blockchain technology.

A hobbyist project that meets your needs is usually orders-of-magnitude work away from a project that meets the needs of millions of users.

The refinement, marketing, etc...

I've shipped million user products. Have you? (not to brag but just to say I have some experience in the level of work involved and I doubt I could accomplish it all by myself again, even though I did it once lonesome but even that made me sick)

Also you were doing this in your spare time. And one of the complaints against Monero is they all do it in their spare time and thus progress moves along very slowly.

When you can get a team focused on it professionally as their paid job, it becomes competitive. Your hobbyist projects weren't competitive because you didn't ship to millions of users.

Please note, I am not belittling your coding skills and experience. According to you, you've done a lot of hacking around.

If you only want hobbyist altcoins, then of course they will all suck.

Go create a hobbyist altcoin and prove us all wrong. Talk is cheap.

And its not only the effort, but also the necessary insight. Insight isn't a dime-a-dozen. Those who make insights often have a valuable first mover advantage. Why should they not monetize it? Are you a Communist? (your computer repair business would have been fucked if you were living under Communism)

Why didn't you offer your computer repair business services for free? Surely you could grow your own food, manufacture your own automobile, manufacture all the appliances you depend on, manufacture your own computer, etc.. No need to charge for anything. No need to reward insight and innovation. Communism is wonderful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine#Government_distribution_policies).

Shelby your not going to get it.. you're stubborn and far too opinionated for your own good.
..to your catastrophic determent on occasion.

You see I have little certainty in my claims.
As i said earlier already here i gauge everything in life as percentages of certainty.
But..
Everything you claim is 100% guaranteed for ever & ever.. cause well.. "i know things"

I follow Al Hazen's scientific formula.. the father of all science. (he literally wrote the book)
He Follows simple basic rules of evaluation.. all of life works this way.
And you fail at following the rules of scientific examination Shelby.

In the absence of PROVABLE Facts you assumed things.. then.. parade that around as "facts"
That is not how it works.. That is called "opinion"

Your ego is the problem and it is obvious to all..
I was trying to be nice about it but you need to stop and reevaluate yourself.
..you won't though.

Being stubborn & opinionated is the technical hallmark of stupidity.

What separates me from you Shelby is i am always searching for ways to see how i am wrong.
I am LOOKING to be wrong.. i seek it out on purpose.
You don't.. you hang around defending what ever position you have at the moment.
..even if you change your mind later LOL

Take for example the science of "space" (off planet earth)
We know there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy ?

I heard all about it trust me and their "evidence" is huge !
It took over a decade to build up a picture to come to that conclusion.
But in reality we have not proven it have we ?
We simply "assumed" there is a Black hole there.

It is feasible there is another thing at work.

It's funny how the vast majority of science guys are adamant about the Black hole being there
but when M. Brown announced he found Planet X recently these same guys scoffed at it laughing..

Mike Brown + his partner used the same exact scientific procedure to derive the conclusion.
Two scenarios used the same methods of testing and came to 2 conclusions..
1 was regarded as a revelation of "Fact" and the other was laughed at by the Science world.
LOL Houston we have a problem hahahha

It was like saying 1+1+2 & 1+1+3 (same equation but two different answers)

And i alone told all these idiot blow-hard's that on the comments (no one seen the comparison)
No one else said it.. just me.
You see the underlying point / problem ?
You see what i said illustrates the fundamental point i am making here ?
..the part of AL Hazen's science theory that is violated ?

Scientific Evaluation rule #3 = EXAMINE YOURSELF

Check your own ideas and lay them out and criticize them as equally as you would some other guys concept.

All those scientists who commented on the News page failed this basic guideline of Science.
They had plenty of ego but could NOT follow a 4 step plan. LOL

At the end of the day i don't care who you are or how much of a big shot you THINK you are.
(directing that at no one in particular)

If some person out there is wrong i will hammer your ass with it and your reputation will not save you.
Facts are facts.
Hell Einstein had been wrong before.. he dismissed the notion rather insultingly of an expanding universe.
He said the big bang theory is bullshit. and he insulted mocked & laughed at the scientist who came to him with the concept..
What do we all believe now ?
I WOULD argue with Einstein in a heart beat.
And if i was Einstein i would contemplate the idea i was wrong and consider it long & hard.
But Einstein's ego and the conflict of his religious beliefs interfered with that.

Peer review ?
Who in Crypto thinks Bitcoin was a conspiracy by the NWO etc to derail the worlds FIAT based economy ?
Who here thinks that Bitcoin could not have been made with out the financial backing of Millions of dollars back in 2007/2008 ?

I bet anything the majority think Bitcoin came about because a guy with some help made it..
Because they wanted to.
I highly doubt the crypto world thinks Bitcoin was a paid attack by rebels working for a clandestine super group with bottomless pockets to fund a super digital evil currency designed to fail to disrupt FIAT or what ever.  :D

YES that makes you sound like a fucking lunatic.
Ask anyone.. that is fucking nuts !

Lets pull out of the rabbit hole for a minute shall we ?
This is off-topic and it's typical of the usual suspect here.. it's also against the rules.
And shows you can not follow them habitually around here.
With a conspiracy coming from a guy who said on this topic that he was banned here
because the staff were out to get him for criticizing Ethereum.
Or was it because you don't know how to follow the fucking rules ?
See that link i gave you earlier called "DELETE ME"
That is YOU Shelby going on with smoothie etc for 139 god damn fucking pages !
AGAIN !

Context alludes you guys here all too often.

Stop.. pull your head out of your ass and drop the ego shit for a while and see some reality.
Or lay he fuck off the med's guy(s).. or increase them LOL

Summary ?
Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence.
..if your EGO will permit you to provide it.

Huh  ???

I disagree with you and that means my opinion is a 100% guaranteed  ???

So you get to state your opinion and I don't get to state mine. Damn sorry I didn't realize that is the way a forum works.

What logic. What wow.

That isn't even wrong. It isn't a rebuttal.

He didn't explain anything because it's a false statement.  Gold mining does not require permission.  That is, unless you want to get into some asinine argument like Native Americans vs colonists philosophy on land ownership and take the colonist viewpoint to it's maximum extreme that one man can own the entire planet and charge everyone else rent.  This is not how things work though, because there's no such thing as "rule of law".  Force is the only law, and governments are a monopoly on force for a specific area of influence.

The "law" is just a smokescreen put up to try and obfuscate what the system really is.  If one man owns the entire planet, he's a paper millionaire.  He can claim everything on paper, but he can't match the force required to actually have it, unless he's Jim Jones and everyone else on the planet is a cult member.

Saying mining gold requires permission is like saying willful disobedience against tyrants is not allowed.  Something like "sire, thou hast been caught poaching deer on the king's land, thus I sentence you to death".  That is the side Anonymint is taking, but killing all the poachers is an impossible task and the "rule of law" isn't even a real thing.

Morality ? Like what ?
Deliberately creating a platform to hide the transactions of Pedo's and drug dealers etc ?
..like Monero.

How bloody moral is that ?  ::)

Me ?
I don't care if my transactions are tracked or possibly identify me.. i have nothing to hide.
It would seem Monero guys do or why would they be pushing so hard ?

..yeah

ON-TOPIC: DEAL WITH IT !!!!1111ONE

Apparently the first and most immoral aspect of crypto work that needs to be addressed is how centralized exchanges are turning the entire ecosystem into a criminal enterprise:

The nov08 'version' was incomplete and released 'privately' for review of core components; discussed before: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=382374.20

Guess biggest missing thing is 'script.cpp' in whatever form had to exist already;


Conclude what you will as usual  ;D

Nice history anyways

New idea:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1501211.msg15383568#msg15383568

charleshoskinson　is Scammer.
Steal money from Japanese people.

'Attain Corporation' is Scam company.
charles is Main Partners.
http://attaincorp.co.jp/en/company/


Everyone Do not be fooled.

charles
Go to Hell! Sayonara.

Nice to hear from you Jimmy. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Scammer!!
can not forgive.
You are hated by ALLJapanese!

You please apologize to the people who bought ADACOIN.

please.