The Moral Character of Cryptocurrency-Related Work

[kushti]

We are going to live in the post-DAO world, whether Ethereum will be (hard or soft)-forked or not.

One of the most important questions hasn’t been answered by the inner circle of Ethereum. And it is not being asked loud enough even. The question is what’s inside the Gordian knot of corrupt ties in the inner Circle.

Former Ethereum members founded Slock.it startup. Then the Slock.it team started The DAO venture, partly in order to get funding for Slock.it itself. The DAO was supported by many Ethereum core team members, including Vitalik.

As a result, a lot of tough question to be asked after the DAO crash. Would be (hard or soft)-fork proposed by Ethereum team if no Ethereum members participation in The DAO? Who are in the inner circle? What are the names of other projects to be saved with a fork in case of disaster?

Fortunately, I am not in the Ethereum world at all, so I do not know answers. Hopefully, some investigative journalists will dig there.

What’s interesting to me is how to avoid dubious scenarios in the future. I think we need to consider some moral ground for core developers and foundation members.

At least, it must be prohibited to work for a blockchain core and any for-profit project built on top of that at the same time, or even for some time after exiting working for a core.

Sometimes developers and foundation members are working for other projects because it is nearly impossible to pay bills developing a core product. For example, I left Nxt mostly because of pretty small rewards. For a developer with vast experience it is easy to find well-paid job. And core development requires highly skilled developers. So it is not easy to get away from multi-million ICOs. Highly-skilled developers team, security audits, consultations with academias and so on could not be cheaper than couple of USD millions. I don’t know about marketing, but I suspect it is not cheaper.

However, spendings must be transparent. Key meetings must be transparent as well, considerations behind key decisions should be described in details.

We need to re-consider governance models, again.

P.S. This post reflects my personal position only.

P.P.S. The title resembles “The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work” by P. Rogaway

[iamnotback]

For a developer with vast experience it is easy to find well-paid job. And core development requires highly skilled developers. So it is not easy to get away from multi-million ICOs. Highly-skilled developers team, security audits, consultations with academias and so on could not be cheaper than couple of USD millions. I don’t know about marketing, but I suspect it is not cheaper.

I wish Spoetnik and other critics of ICOs would realize you can't build s/w like Bitcoin with volunteers.

Bitcoin wasn't built by a lone Japanese guy in his basement. It was built by the DEEP STATE as a TrojanHorse in the coming global sovereign debt collapse and the lurch to digital currency and a one-world reserve currency controlled by the global elite. The DEEP STATE has at least the $4 trillion Black Budget that is stolen from the USA DoD as admitted by for example Donald Rumsfeld.

Idiots who think s/w can be built with volunteers don't seem to understand that all major open source projects are corporate funded.

[charleshoskinson]

I wish Spoetnik and other critics of ICOs would realize you can't build s/w like Bitcoin with volunteers.

Bitcoin wasn't built by a lone Japanese guy in his basement. It was built by the DEEP STATE as a TrojanHorse in the coming global sovereign debt collapse and the lurch to digital currency and a one-world reserve currency controlled by the global elite. The DEEP STATE has at least the $4 trillion Black Budget that is stolen from the USA DoD as admitted by for example Donald Rumsfeld.

Idiots who think s/w can be built with volunteers don't seem to understand that all major open source projects are corporate funded.

Jesus those have to be some good drugs man. Deep state?

[Moneroman88]

Jesus those have to be some good drugs man. Deep state?

It's interesting to note that the author of the above comment is the (former?) employer of the OP, kushti.

"Drugs"? What is your issue man?

[r0ach]

The problem is you don't see the obvious categorization here, private money vs public money.  The Federal Reserve currently lends debt based money into existence and charges you interest to use it.  This is obviously private money and detrimental to anyone that's suckered into using it when it's clearly neo-feudalism through usury.  Gold?  Anyone can find it if they try hard enough.  There's no strings attached to it.  It's not debt based.  It's not issued by a central authority.  It's not possible to be extorted by interest or devaluation by some unknown party just by picking it up.  It's permissionless, public money.

The same dynamic exists in cryptocurrency.  IPO scamcoins are essentially directly replicating the Federal Reserve banks, in that they're attempting to charge you to utilize their private money system.  Even if you remove the interest or devaluation aspects, it's still a system of extortion.  Pay me to use my money.  Private money.  It is capitalism, but it's also subjecting yourself to be someone's slave where they make the rules and you're there to benefit them at your own expense.

In traditional Bitcoin PoW, the block reward does not benefit the issuer, so there is no master and slave dynamic.  It's public money, just like gold.  Everything else that deviates from this model where the issuer benefits is just a flat out extortion scheme.  I'm sorry all of you people want to get paid, but it's not possible in this domain unless you willingly become an extortionist scammer.  The reason this forum exists is for the facilitation of public money to defeat those private money scams.

[charleshoskinson]

It's interesting to note that the author of the above comment is the (former?) employer of the OP, kushti.

"Drugs"? What is your issue man?

You obviously don't have much reading comprehension. It was in reference to the bad shit crazy post above mine. Alex and I have a great relationship. Try again son.

[Moneroman88]

It's interesting to note that the author of the above comment is the (former?) employer of the OP, kushti.

"Drugs"? What is your issue man?

You obviously don't have much reading comprehension. It was in reference to the bad shit crazy post above mine. Alex and I have a great relationship. Try again son.

You obviously don't know how to quote as you didn't do that.  I see you now edited your post.  Congratulations, daughter!

[iamnotback]

I wish Spoetnik and other critics of ICOs would realize you can't build s/w like Bitcoin with volunteers.

Bitcoin wasn't built by a lone Japanese guy in his basement. It was built by the DEEP STATE as a TrojanHorse in the coming global sovereign debt collapse and the lurch to digital currency and a one-world reserve currency controlled by the global elite. The DEEP STATE has at least the $4 trillion Black Budget that is stolen from the USA DoD as admitted by for example Donald Rumsfeld.

Idiots who think s/w can be built with volunteers don't seem to understand that all major open source projects are corporate funded.

Jesus those have to be some good drugs man. Deep state?

It's interesting to note that the author of the above comment is the (former?) employer of the OP, kushti.

"Drugs"? What is your issue man?

You obviously don't have much reading comprehension. It was in reference to the bad shit crazy post above mine. Alex and I have a great relationship. Try again son.

Is Bill Moyers on drugs?

http://billmoyers.com/episode/the-deep-state-hiding-in-plain-sight/

Is this the same Charles who once told me that everyone knows (speculates) that the NSA created Bitcoin? Did you conveniently forget you used to think that, somewhere along your journey  

Cripes man, I was supporting your employee's position on the necessity to raise funds to fund the development of block chain software.

I've never in my entire life tried the class of "drugs" you are alluding to, unless you count the very few times I took sleeping pills in my 30s, the Codeine I took when my wisdom teeth were extracted, and the high powered morphine analog I was given only twice (two 3 hours respites from 4 days of nonstop huffing and puffing burning like hell inside) during the acute peptic ulcer ICU hospitalization in 2012.


Btw, perhaps you've detected that I really don't support governance as a solution. I believe in the "code is the law" and finding solutions other than Foundations and governance. So perhaps that might be a reason for lack of harmony between our respective plans and platforms. I am not sure about that, because I can't read your mind. Just saying.

Edit: also that doesn't mean I entirely reject Bitcoin. Even badly intentioned things can sometimes be leveraged for good outcomes, or even the good can be intentionally obscured within the bad because often people disobey their orders when they feel it is necessary to do so. And I expect the reality is multifarious. We each speak from a perspective of it.

From my perspective, Bitcoin is clearly designed to co-opt traditional finance powers at the nation-state level, i.e. disposable nation-state central banks and too-big-to-fail banks. And the control of Bitcoin is shifting to the Chinese miners and mining farms.

[Spoetnik]

@OP
Well said !
I agree and wish i had some input on that for you.. but i don't.

@roach i agree with what you said entirely.
Although it was a rather wordy complicated advanced comment LOL
I think i got most of it.. the usual guys here know i got the basics of the
US FED Reserve memorized
But i think you all have poured more time & effort into thinking about it than i ever have.
Some of the info i seen came from Documentaries and..
As a Canadian this gave me some insight into how it works "over there"
I am telling you all this because.. you can then see what i saw !

For example i watched this.. "Money for Nothing Inside the Federal Reserve - Jim Bruce 2013.mkv" 1.59gb
Mentions the housing bubble + recession stuff & the Federal Reserve
And goes into stuff such as regulations & quantitative easing etc
All in an easy to digest manner.. not too dumb down or to advanced.
(i got it via Piracy Torrent sites a couple years back in 2013)

When you dive into advanced topics with massive walls of text using "big words"
all of crypto tunes you out.. then they go and buy scammy ass ICO coins.

I have been harping on you guys for ages to "dumb it down" for the masses
and yes sometimes even for me because you guys get REALLY fucking carried away
with the tech babble jerk off Mr. Smart Guy crap ROFL

So..
I don't care if people think they deserve to paid
..then want to rig the system / currency to pay themselves.
It's scammy period.
Sorry Shelby i am not bending on that rule.

There is sources that can and do release fair projects out there around the globe
and they do not NEED to scam us to launch them.
This delusion that it is a necessity to take your cut or the project can not be completed is bullshit.
THEN DON'T DO IT !
Leave it to someone who CAN !
Do not create the problem to sell me a fix basically..

It's real simple don't release scammy shit.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION THAT IS ACCEPTABLE
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BAD BEHAVIOR

"BAD IS BAD" i have said here for years.
Apparently you guys think you can "Justify" bad behavior somehow.. NOPE !

You *WANT* money is not an excuse for ..anything.
Spare me the charade
..none of these ICO's ever launched needed even a small fraction of what they got etc.

Satoshi ?
I lean towards the guy being a group but i do consider still it may have been one guy with some help too.
I don't know.. i have done research and it's tough to say really.

Anyway people don't want to touch this issue they go silent fast..
I am surprised anyone at all replied..
It seems we have so many people in Crypto that ETH got a market cap worth 1 Billion $
But when you start talking about morality the whole entire god damn scene vanishes hiding under their bed.
hmm i wonder why ? LOL


EDIT:
I sure as hell don't think clandestine sub-groups of the US Govt or NWO "MADE" Bitcoin.

[iamnotback]

EDIT:
I sure as hell don't think clandestine sub-groups of the US Govt or NWO "MADE" Bitcoin.

So who in hell had the $millions it cost to develop Bitcoin to risk on some unproven decentralized concept?

Take yourself back to 2007 or 2008 when the first stages of development likely began. Not many investors would have had any confidence that an electronic money scheme could work. Chaum's ecash had failed.

Heck even years later after Bitcoin was launched, 10,000 BTC was only exchangeable for a pizza. Hindsight is 20/20 vision. Try to really put yourself back 8 years and think who would've invested $millions in creating Bitcoin?

And look at what Bitcoin is designed to disrupt economically. And look how Bitcoin's economics was intentionally designed to become centralized on mining farms. And don't tell me that Satoshi didn't know that because not only did he write that he expected that, but Nick Szabo had also written years before that ASICs would take over any such scheme.

This is the same as when I got banned for speaking out against Ethereum (wonder who paid off the mods for that one?). The capacity for delusion and ignoring basic facts possessed by the guys on BCT knows no boundaries.

Yet according to Charles I am "batshit crazy". Yet he is one of the founders of this Ethereum debacle. He claims (in his recent video) he got kicked out of Ethereum because of he wanted stronger governance, stricter budgets, and more regulatory complaint ICO, yet no where has he admitted that I told him frankly that Turing-complete scripting would be a clusterfuck (in spite of gas limitations on how long a script can run).

Honestly back in those days I politely told Charles that I couldn't start a project with him at that time. Because frankly speaking I could see he was going to stuff any project with too many mouths to feed instead of hunkering down and focusing on the work to be done. So I kindly told him, "I am not ready to do some big ICO thing, go forth without me". So now Charles is this big TedTALK personality and I am batshit crazy. Ain't it nice how it works out that way. We also learned in Charles' recent video that he is the one who hooked up the Chinese money with the ProtoShares ICO.

Let's not forget that recently kushti (and Charles' company) were trying to re-start my proof-of-diskspace concept that I had invented in 2013 and had abandoned because I realized it was insolubly flawed. Perhaps they are pissed off because I explained to them again that was a flawed direction for them to not pursue. Maybe they intended to raise a lot of money again with a flawed technology.

Charles, so who is "bat shit crazy" here?

Be careful with your mouth Charles. I've respected the confidence of other things you've told me. Don't push me. I empathized with you. I never thought you were like this. Now I know.

Are you pissed off because I criticized Russian scammers in the thread you started about how WAVES was using your company assets without your permission?  (and no it doesn't mean I discriminate any ethnicity, cripes!) Cripes I supported you in that thread also. And now we see that maybe WAVES has already scammed.

40% of Waves ICO BTC Withdrawn! For What?

I didn't read the thread. I am just responding to the Subject title quoted above in bold text. I am NOT accusing anyone of anything. I am speaking hypothetically below.

The problem with ICOs is the developers can take out a loan, buy the ICO from themselves, thus creating the illusion that they raised more money than they did. But of course they need to pay the loan back. So tracking the BTC raised from an ICO is apparently a necessary condition for ICOs, but it still doesn't resolve the issues below.

Buying the ICO from themselves allows manipulation:

1. They own a large % of the supply which they can withhold from the float to drive the price up. They use this as margin so they can take out options contracts to apply highly leveraged price manipulation.

2. If this buying is visible during the ICO process, this can drive up demand for the ICO.

And then you posted this in thread I started about the potential legal quagmire for Vitalik and Tual, which sure seemed like another attack on me:

Nothing to do with US laws. Hahaha hahaha, God you're funny. Best joke I've heard all day. Look up US Securities treaties

Who are you addressing this to? Is this addressed to bathrobehero or to me or to the person I quoted in the OP?

I have not made reference specifically to USA law. I am quoting in the OP about common law as it pertains to contracts. There are many common law countries on earth.

The point I am making is that when class action lawsuits are pressed (in the case of the potential security), that is often when securities regulators are compelled to become involved (at least in the USA and I don't know about other countries but I presume they have some securities regulation also).

Ethereum and the DAO I presume are held by people in many nations on earth, so laws can filed in any of those nations.

...snip...

But again, I wasn't focusing solely on the USA jurisdiction.

And it was hilarious when you subsequently a day later used my legality thoughts (from entire thread quoted) in your "Thoughts on the DAO" blog post.

So then maybe you were pissed off, because I responded to that thread you started by disagreeing with talk about needing governance and all that jizz and stated the real issue is "NO FORKS!":

Charles, I don't think you sufficiently emphasized Bruce Fenton's points. You provided a link that seems lost in a sea of the mix of historical storytelling with a smidgen of your self-aggrandizing verbiage, so I doubt most readers even read what Bruce wrote.

Crypto is Not Politics

I keep reading arguments about how The Will of The People should decide. And how this is the only fair and equitable way. And I am here to say this is 100% retarded bullshit and any one who repeats it (and nonchalantly dismisses this!), is retarded.

What distinguishes the intention of Satoshi's block chain invention from the world we had before it, is that it eliminates politics. The technical reason is because due to the Nash equilibrium, then no one (not even mining nodes) have any fucking control.

If we destroy the Nash equilibrium with a 51% attack (aka fork) by not honoring the decentralized protocol, then we fall into a no-man's land of ambiguous interpretation and the brutality of the majority.

It is as simple as that. Either we choose to honor the code and protocol, or we go back to the depressing clusterfucked world we have before Satoshi.

Now the other problem is that BitCON is also becoming centralized because of economies-of-scale in mining. We haven't yet perfected Satoshi's invention. But that should not deter us from our ideals.

If you support forks, you violate everything Satoshi tried to do for the world.

No forks! No Blockstream forks either! Offer proof-of-burn if you want to propose new features on a new block chain, so that people are autonomous with their money.

And any arguments about empathy and intent in contract law are up against moral hazard which leads to the aforementioned clusterfuck of brutality. Don't reward retarded speculators for not doing due diligence and their derelict incapable developer idols, because they carry the mental affliction of those who want the clusterfucked world that existed prior to Satoshi's invention.

No forks!

Another argument made in favor of forking is that consensus is created "by the community", that "the miners can vote". This is even more subtle and misleading. Miners are not meant to be the final arbiters of transactions and contracts. By design, they are supposed to be dumb slaves of the protocol rules. A dumb lottery validating transactions according to deterministic rules.

If they need to employ good judgment, we are at the mercy of their good sense.

It comes down to is this. If smart contracts must be interpreted by humans for their "intent" instead of by code for their programming, then smart contracts cannot be autonomous and automatic, and instead can be retroactively reversed by the community, the courts or governments.

If this is the case, it's hard to see what value smart contracts actually have, which means that it's hard to see that ethereum should have any value at all.

The only way for ethereum to be able to recover from this event and thrive in the future is for it to stick to its principles.

[Spoetnik]

I have been "speaking out" against Ethereum and the staff here never banned me man..
I suspect it was because of other reason(s) you won't or can't admit ?
I have no idea..

US Black budget groups made Bitcoin ?
It might be time to see a shrink or lay off the "Conspiracy Theory With Jesse Ventura" TV episodes
You would not need THAT much money to code a wallet and launch it with some community support.
Besides..
Where is some tangible evidence ?
We have pretty much none on the Bitcoin inventor as it is ..never mind implicating the US govt.

Don't get me wrong i have railed on BILLIONS of times against the USA's govt.
I am no fan of theirs and i think they are drunk with power & out of control..
And i do think some of the US govt conspiracy theories out there are plausible *enough*
So if there was something for me to go on i would be able to listen and consider the concept.
Sorry i just don't see it..

How certain are you that some branch of the US govt created Bitcoin ? 100% ?
Absolute guaranteed ?
I see things like that as a scientific examination / test.
If you have no smoking gun or concrete proof then there can not be a 100% certainty.
We don't have that tangible proof so how can you say it is proven 100% guaranteed ?
This shouts insanity to us all.. a mental problem sorry to say.

It could not have been made with out the Financial power of a govt the size of the USA ?
It *required* the agenda & backing of a world player govt ?

I think it was some guy(s) who had an idea and had worked on it over the years.
You said yourself there was others before BTC came along.. people have thought of the idea for decades !


EDIT:

Although i was just banned right now on the Freenode ethereum channel.
I had not said anything in an hour and last just posted a couple topic links from here into there.
Random ban by "chanserv"
They are scammy ass cowardly pieces of shit LOL

[iamnotback]

I have been "speaking out" against Ethereum and the staff here never banned me man..
I suspect it was because of other reason(s) you won't or can't admit ?
I have no idea..

Would "they" ban a drunk homeless man from the alley way nearest to the Capitol, for wailing incessantly, "Michelle is a HIV-positive, male ICO!"?

Because my arguments have more technological bite than yours. They can deal with you by promoting your reputation. See all that red they put on you. Attacking my reputation doesn't really work. I even attack my own reputation. You've seen the photo of "my" balls right? (even it was stated that wasn't my balls, but let's not engorge on irrelevant details)

You would not need THAT much money to code a wallet and launch it with some community support.

Like I said, your arguments are grasping for technological coherence.

Don't get me wrong i have railed on BILLIONS of times against the USA's govt.

I did not implicate the USA govt.

The entire point of Bill Moyers' DEEP STATE presentation is that the USA govt is not in control of the USA.

Satoshi exited after he found out Gavin would be talking to the CIA. So it wasn't the "USA govt" who created Bitcoin.

You don't find it peculiar that no one can find a trace on the "man". Who besides government secret agents are able to accomplish that when everyone is searching for them ("him")  

It might be time to see a shrink or lay off the "Conspiracy Theory With Jesse Ventura" TV episodes

Bill Moyers and the guy who did the research on the DEEP STATE are mainstream and highly respected. That guy was in a high position in the government.

I did not claim it is falsifiable. I am applying Occam's Razor. It is quacks and walks like a duck, maybe it is a duck. Okay maybe it could be a Spoetnik penguin. So admit you really created Bitcoin didn't ya?  

Please don't use the words "see a shrink" or "batshit crazy" with impunity. Real sane people actually get committed to mental institutions and forcibly enslaved. It is not a joke. I really don't appreciate it.

(not that anyone will ever take me alive in an illegal entrapment, because I am a Cherokee indian and I will die on the spot preempting any unjust attempt to take my freedom)

[iamnotback]

The problem is you don't see the obvious categorization here, private money vs public money.  The Federal Reserve currently lends debt based money into existence and charges you interest to use it.  This is obviously private money and detrimental to anyone that's suckered into using it when it's clearly neo-feudalism through usury.

Funding the development of a block chain technology doesn't mean the block chain issues all the money supply by paying the developers.

For example, Ethereum was funded with an ICO, but issuance of the money continued by proof-of-work.

Even Charles claimed in his recent video, that he had favored the funding the Ethereum corporation with venture capital instead of an ICO (but he was overruled), so then none of the money supply would have been issued by the developers.

But I will agree with you on one aspect, which is that if ICOs hand too much control to one group, then they can continue to influence the project and system which sort of makes them rulers akin to a Federal Reserve. We see this effect recently with Vitalik using his influence to propose forks. And we may be seeing this with WAVES or other ICOs having too much control over the float.

Gold?  Anyone can find it if they try hard enough.  There's no strings attached to it.  It's not debt based.  It's not issued by a central authority.  It's not possible to be extorted by interest or devaluation by some unknown party just by picking it up.  It's permissionless, public money.

Gold is not permissionless. You need a license to mine it in most instances. You pay taxes when you mine it. Increasingly so it is becoming dangerous to carry it with you for the government will just seize it and say you are trafficking it for criminal intent.

And besides, who the fuck has time to go mine gold. And it isn't currency, because virtually no one accepts it.

The same dynamic exists in cryptocurrency.  IPO scamcoins are essentially ... attempting to charge you to utilize their private money system.  ... it's still a system of extortion.  Pay me to use my money.  Private money.  It is capitalism, but it's also subjecting yourself to be someone's slave where they make the rules and you're there to benefit them at your own expense.

That is not the case if the developers raised funding, but don't control the ongoing issuance via proof-of-work and if the source code is open source so anyone can fork if they aren't satisfied with the attributes of the protocol.

In traditional Bitcion PoW, the block reward does not benefit the issuer, so there is no master and slave dynamic.  It's public money, just like gold.

The slave is everyone who doesn't own an ASIC farm, while they pay $50 per BTC, we pay $600 per BTC.

Sorry your logic is REKTED by reality.

Proof-of-work just trades one set of owners for another set of owners. Chinese mining oligarchy owns Bitcoin. We pay them $550 per Bitcoin. Enjoy your delusion.

Everything else that deviates from this model where the issuer benefits is just a flat out extortion scheme.  I'm sorry all of you people want to get paid, but it's not possible in this domain unless you willingly become an extortionist scammer.  The reason this forum exists is for the facilitation of public money to defeat those private money scams.

It is not different for Bitcoin. The Chinese are extorting us.

Fact is that no alternative will be developed without funding.
 
So please come of your "Holier than thou" Mundero "voluntears" high chair (that you've been promoting after buying it) and take off your bib and stop yammering like your were born 6 months ago.

[Ramazi]

The problem is you don't see the obvious categorization here, private money vs public money.  The Federal Reserve currently lends debt based money into existence and charges you interest to use it.  This is obviously private money and detrimental to anyone that's suckered into using it when it's clearly neo-feudalism through usury.  Gold?  Anyone can find it if they try hard enough.  There's no strings attached to it.  It's not debt based.  It's not issued by a central authority.  It's not possible to be extorted by interest or devaluation by some unknown party just by picking it up.  It's permissionless, public money.

The same dynamic exists in cryptocurrency.  IPO scamcoins are essentially directly replicating the Federal Reserve banks, in that they're attempting to charge you to utilize their private money system.  Even if you remove the interest or devaluation aspects, it's still a system of extortion.  Pay me to use my money.  Private money.  It is capitalism, but it's also subjecting yourself to be someone's slave where they make the rules and you're there to benefit them at your own expense.

In traditional Bitcion PoW, the block reward does not benefit the issuer, so there is no master and slave dynamic.  It's public money, just like gold.  Everything else that deviates from this model where the issuer benefits is just a flat out extortion scheme.  I'm sorry all of you people want to get paid, but it's not possible in this domain unless you willingly become an extortionist scammer.  The reason this forum exists is for the facilitation of public money to defeat those private money scams.

Roach, good observations and strong points!

Does it mean that only Bitcoin is a good basis for social projects, all other currencies are "private" ones? The holders of currencies will benefit and all other participants will loose sooner or later.

I'm rather new to the topic, so sorry if my question is stupid one.

[iamnotback]

The problem is you don't see the obvious categorization here, private money vs public money.  The Federal Reserve currently lends debt based money into existence and charges you interest to use it.  This is obviously private money and detrimental to anyone that's suckered into using it when it's clearly neo-feudalism through usury.  Gold?  Anyone can find it if they try hard enough.  There's no strings attached to it.  It's not debt based.  It's not issued by a central authority.  It's not possible to be extorted by interest or devaluation by some unknown party just by picking it up.  It's permissionless, public money.

The same dynamic exists in cryptocurrency.  IPO scamcoins are essentially directly replicating the Federal Reserve banks, in that they're attempting to charge you to utilize their private money system.  Even if you remove the interest or devaluation aspects, it's still a system of extortion.  Pay me to use my money.  Private money.  It is capitalism, but it's also subjecting yourself to be someone's slave where they make the rules and you're there to benefit them at your own expense.

In traditional Bitcion PoW, the block reward does not benefit the issuer, so there is no master and slave dynamic.  It's public money, just like gold.  Everything else that deviates from this model where the issuer benefits is just a flat out extortion scheme.  I'm sorry all of you people want to get paid, but it's not possible in this domain unless you willingly become an extortionist scammer.  The reason this forum exists is for the facilitation of public money to defeat those private money scams.

Roach, good observations and strong points!

Does it mean that only Bitcoin is a good basis for social projects, all other currencies are "private" ones? The holders of currencies will benefit and all other participants will loose sooner or later.

I'm rather new to the topic, so sorry if my question is stupid one.

r0ach is just trying to sell you Monero proof-of-work bagholding that he bought. His logic is incorrect. See my detailed rebuttal immediately above yours.

[Spoetnik]

The simplest explanation is *USUALLY* the correct one means USUALLY.. not ALWAYS.

And you Bill Byrne'd me LOL
He knows a guy who knows a guy "who said"
That is NOT proof.

Is there some conspiracy after Bitcoin was launched ? i bet yes !
We know the FBI had a pow wow with the dude getting 900k a year.

You do realize the topic is morality and you have once again veered off into the bushes gone 4 by'in right ?

I did not mean to insult you just point out how you seem to be oblivious to things on a level.
A tendency to plow on hard & stubborn on tangents never letting up.
They say you were banned for criticizing Ethereum here.
Which is WHY i brought up that i just got banned on their IRC channel.
It was not a pissing contest to see who's opinion is smarter or more feared.
But a correlation and assertion that THEY are scared Frauds.. unwilling to accept criticism.
Worth pointing out i was not doing squat.. they banned me for some past commentary i guess.
I only noticed because i was afk for hours and my ICON flashed telling me something was said.

Cryptsy did the same thing too.. bans all round.. just delayed out of context & random.
I had mentioned before the Cryptsy Points hack incident because that is how the story was relayed to me..
Those were the words people used when they told me the story i passed along over here on the forum
..from the Troll-Box.
Jim Shockney showed up here on the forum and flipped out demanding i was a liar and there was no hack.
and that they had never been hacked.. time stamps show Paul Vernon saying they were hacked even worse
before the points hack and i think JShock was in on it or knew about it.
So he was lying.. but they gave me a 1 year chat ban anyway (for my choice of words here)
When all i did was relay what i had heard from chat box users the next day.. when i went to Cryptsy.
And.. it did happen too !
They rolled back the markets and mentioned it on their Twitter so YES it DID happen.
SO no i never lied about squat.. and they were hacked.. more than once !
if you believe they were hacked for 12.5 million then shut down.. i think Paul stole the money.
So that would be 1 fake hack and 1 real hack LOL

Who are they scared of Shelby ?
I don't know..
Who is smarter ? seems your hinting at that LOL
Who is the smarter guy here Shelby ? Me or You ?

Look left bud.. see a Penguin with an Ak47 ?  
Do i look "banned" to you ?  

[kushti]

I wish Spoetnik and other critics of ICOs would realize you can't build s/w like Bitcoin with volunteers.

Bitcoin wasn't built by a lone Japanese guy in his basement. It was built by the DEEP STATE as a TrojanHorse in the coming global sovereign debt collapse and the lurch to digital currency and a one-world reserve currency controlled by the global elite. The DEEP STATE has at least the $4 trillion Black Budget that is stolen from the USA DoD as admitted by for example Donald Rumsfeld.

Idiots who think s/w can be built with volunteers don't seem to understand that all major open source projects are corporate funded.

There's the strict evidence against the conspiracy theory. That is the original Bitcoin code: https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive . The problem, it is vulnerable as hell and so not usable at all. If we want to build something reasonably safe and useful in an observable time(12-18 months) that requires a lot of money.

[iamnotback]

I wish Spoetnik and other critics of ICOs would realize you can't build s/w like Bitcoin with volunteers.

Bitcoin wasn't built by a lone Japanese guy in his basement. It was built by the DEEP STATE as a TrojanHorse in the coming global sovereign debt collapse and the lurch to digital currency and a one-world reserve currency controlled by the global elite. The DEEP STATE has at least the $4 trillion Black Budget that is stolen from the USA DoD as admitted by for example Donald Rumsfeld.

Idiots who think s/w can be built with volunteers don't seem to understand that all major open source projects are corporate funded.

There's the strict evidence against the conspiracy theory. That is the original Bitcoin code: https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive . The problem, it is vulnerable as hell and so not usable at all. If we want to build something reasonably safe and useful in an observable time(12-18 months) that requires a lot of money.

Do we have the changesets for the changes from the November 2008 source code:

https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive/tree/master/nov08

To the v0.1 January 2009 source code:

https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive/tree/master/bitcoin0.1

So we can see who did most of the work on the source code?

Has any one estimated the man-hours for those changes in that 2.x month timespan?

Remember my point was that it required $millions to develop Bitcoin into reliable system over that 12-18 month timespan. And apparently Gavin is very close with the CIA. Who was funding that early development and why. Bitcoin was only worth less than 10,000 BTC per pizza.

And so we do agree we can't develop something like Bitcoin without $millions of investment. It can't be done a lone Japanese guy in his basement.

[Danslip]

ETH will collapse if the FED ever had to raise rates again. ETH is pumped up by cheap money and user to value ratio is the worst in crypto. Meaning the price per head that owns ETH is higher then any other coin.

[kushti]

In traditional Bitcion PoW, the block reward does not benefit the issuer, so there is no master and slave dynamic.  It's public money, just like gold.  Everything else that deviates from this model where the issuer benefits is just a flat out extortion scheme.  I'm sorry all of you people want to get paid, but it's not possible in this domain unless you willingly become an extortionist scammer.  The reason this forum exists is for the facilitation of public money to defeat those private money scams.

Most of Bitcoin core developers and the Foundation are utterly corrupted. Core devs are building startups on top of Bitcoin(Blockstream, Bloq etc) or serving companies around it. The blocksize drama happened mostly because of different devs lobbying different corporate interests. I think there's no reason to explain how miserable Bitcoin Foundation history is.  So Bitcoin in fact is pretty bad example for "public money" concept. Other than that, I see your point and found it quite interesting.