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Title: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Cubic Earth on March 19, 2013, 12:10:22 AM http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html (http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html)
Get out and Vote people! Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: nobbynobbynoob on March 19, 2013, 12:13:10 AM FinCEN seems to be stating the obvious really. Stay in crypto and you're not a "money transmitter". Touch fiat and you are. That's the essence of it, yes? It is already the case that exchanges dealing with fiat are subject to AML, KYC and all that baloney.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Cubic Earth on March 19, 2013, 12:19:08 AM After a cursory reading of the ruling, I say I believe it to be excellent news. The ruling itself is pretty bland and overall pretty sensible, and for what is essentially the first utterance of the word "Bitcoin" from the mouth of the US Government, that translates to "excellent" for this community. It is the first hint of their strategy and it seems to be something other than an all-out assault on the peoples' currency.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Technomage on March 19, 2013, 12:21:28 AM I'd say "probably good". Short term this will mean that certain exchanges will probably need licenses, especially if similar ruling spreads to the EU and elsewhere. That will require money and paperwork. However, this will further increase the legitimacy of Bitcoin long term. It's good news I believe.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: hazek on March 19, 2013, 12:40:55 AM I'd say "probably good". Short term this will mean that certain exchanges will probably need licenses, especially if similar ruling spreads to the EU and elsewhere. That will require money and paperwork. However, this will further increase the legitimacy of Bitcoin long term. It's good news I believe. I share this opinion. Short term bad, long term good. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Qoheleth on March 19, 2013, 12:54:02 AM The only downside of this ruling, to me, is that it adds overhead to some mining operations.
Balancing that are what I see as a major upside, plus a minor one: 1) FinCEN has acknowledged Bitcoin as a real thing, and done so in a way that implies they aren't going to pee in the end users' soup. One of the big possible uncertainties of Bitcoin's future was that the gummint, once it took notice of Bitcoin, would react punitively. The fact that the ruling places no restrictions on end-users (or, really, anyone who isn't mining for fiat or running an exchange) goes a long way to dispelling that cloud. 2) Miners are now incentivized to spend their mined coins within the Bitcoin economy, because then they don't have to register as money transmitters. This means an increase in demand for BTC-denominated goods, which is excellent long-term for Bitcoin as a whole. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: robamichael on March 19, 2013, 01:39:27 AM This goes beyond Bitcoin.
Altcoins and Ripple are now in the books as well. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: grantbdev on March 19, 2013, 01:40:40 AM Probably good, especially for merchants who are uncertain about legality.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: dave111223 on March 19, 2013, 01:41:05 AM After a cursory reading of the ruling, I say I believe it to be excellent news. The ruling itself is pretty bland and overall pretty sensible, and for what is essentially the first utterance of the word "Bitcoin" from the mouth of the US Government, that translates to "excellent" for this community. It is the first hint of their strategy and it seems to be something other than an all-out assault on the peoples' currency. I don't see the word "Bitcoin" mentioned anywhere in that document Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: foo on March 19, 2013, 02:39:06 AM After a cursory reading of the ruling, I say I believe it to be excellent news. The ruling itself is pretty bland and overall pretty sensible, and for what is essentially the first utterance of the word "Bitcoin" from the mouth of the US Government, that translates to "excellent" for this community. It is the first hint of their strategy and it seems to be something other than an all-out assault on the peoples' currency. I don't see the word "Bitcoin" mentioned anywhere in that document "De-Centralized Virtual Currency" -- what else could that possibly refer to? Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: dave111223 on March 19, 2013, 02:42:27 AM After a cursory reading of the ruling, I say I believe it to be excellent news. The ruling itself is pretty bland and overall pretty sensible, and for what is essentially the first utterance of the word "Bitcoin" from the mouth of the US Government, that translates to "excellent" for this community. It is the first hint of their strategy and it seems to be something other than an all-out assault on the peoples' currency. I don't see the word "Bitcoin" mentioned anywhere in that document "De-Centralized Virtual Currency" -- what else could that possibly refer to? Take your pick: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0 It refers to any "De-Centralized Virtual Currency", not Bitcoin exclusively. And as I said makes no mention of the word "Bitcoin" it applies to any virtual currency. Could mean Litcoin, FRC, Ripple, NVC etc... etc... etc.. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: foo on March 19, 2013, 02:59:57 AM After a cursory reading of the ruling, I say I believe it to be excellent news. The ruling itself is pretty bland and overall pretty sensible, and for what is essentially the first utterance of the word "Bitcoin" from the mouth of the US Government, that translates to "excellent" for this community. It is the first hint of their strategy and it seems to be something other than an all-out assault on the peoples' currency. I don't see the word "Bitcoin" mentioned anywhere in that document "De-Centralized Virtual Currency" -- what else could that possibly refer to? Take your pick: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0 It refers to any "De-Centralized Virtual Currency", not Bitcoin exclusively. And as I said makes no mention of the word "Bitcoin" it applies to any virtual currency. Could mean Litcoin, FRC, Ripple, NVC etc... etc... etc.. Bitcoin clones are basically equivalent to Bitcoin. The page doesn't mention the word "dollar" either, but it obviously applies to dollars. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: BTC Books on March 19, 2013, 03:01:51 AM After a cursory reading of the ruling, I say I believe it to be excellent news. The ruling itself is pretty bland and overall pretty sensible, and for what is essentially the first utterance of the word "Bitcoin" from the mouth of the US Government, that translates to "excellent" for this community. It is the first hint of their strategy and it seems to be something other than an all-out assault on the peoples' currency. I don't see the word "Bitcoin" mentioned anywhere in that document They can't do that. IANAL - but I'm pretty sure that the law must define things, rather than name them. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: dave111223 on March 19, 2013, 03:09:32 AM Bitcoin clones are basically equivalent to Bitcoin. The page doesn't mention the word "dollar" either, but it obviously applies to dollars. Wow your dumb. If you were to exchange Litcoin for Euros in the US, this would still apply, and what does that got to do with Bitcoins and Dollars? This document addresses "Virtual Currencies and Fiat Currency" it doesn't address only "Bitcoin" and "Dollars" Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: ralree on March 19, 2013, 03:25:45 AM So, it doesn't apply to me if I mine coins then buy gold with them, right? Just if I cash them out for fiat currency.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: BTC Books on March 19, 2013, 03:41:19 AM So, it doesn't apply to me if I mine coins then buy gold with them, right? Just if I cash them out for fiat currency. Quote By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter. In addition, a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency. I wouldn't bet on that. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: GGGGG on March 19, 2013, 03:52:33 AM It's unfortunate that the US Gov't is sticking their nose in Bitcoin and will be forcing US-based bitcoin users to comply with whatever strange hoops they decide to make us jump through... but this is also a big step towards being viewed as something legitimate in the eyes of the mainstream. And of course the government would not just ignore it forever... it was either regulate it somehow or attempt to make it outright illegal.
I think it will be a pain in the ass, but overall will probably be good for bitcoin. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: dave111223 on March 19, 2013, 03:54:44 AM So, it doesn't apply to me if I mine coins then buy gold with them, right? Just if I cash them out for fiat currency. Quote FinCEN's regulations define currency (also referred to as "real" currency) as "the coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender and that [ii] circulates and [iii] is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance. So if there is any country where gold is designated as a legal tender, then gold would also be within the definition of a "currency" Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on March 19, 2013, 04:03:50 AM Quote c. De-Centralized Virtual Currencies A final type of convertible virtual currency activity involves a de-centralized convertible virtual currency (1) that has no central repository and no single administrator, and (2) that persons may obtain by their own computing or manufacturing effort. A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter. By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter. In addition, a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency. This is the important part. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Melbustus on March 19, 2013, 04:17:43 AM Anyone else perplexed by the distinction between "real" and "virtual" that's arbitrarily made without definition?
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Tomatocage on March 19, 2013, 04:18:22 AM Laws are created to solve problems. I wonder what problems were perceived that necessitated this move.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Qoheleth on March 19, 2013, 04:42:26 AM Anyone else perplexed by the distinction between "real" and "virtual" that's arbitrarily made without definition? They provided a definition, though. A "virtual currency" is any currency that isn't legal tender in any country.Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Gabi on March 19, 2013, 06:25:52 AM Bad, this means expenses and expenses and fail regulations like the tons that already exist and that are strangling the economy.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Daily Anarchist on March 19, 2013, 06:55:55 AM Where is the "neutral" option?
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: sinner on March 19, 2013, 07:42:26 AM what does this mean if you sell BTC on Gox?
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Peter Todd on March 19, 2013, 07:57:13 AM Quote A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter. By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter. So what happens when mining income is mostly fees rather than inflation subsidy? They aren't creating units of currency, they're just getting paid fees. Can I separate my mining income into fee and subsidy and turn the former into fiat without a money transmitter license? I suspect FinCEN didn't look too carefully into the technical details... Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: foo on March 19, 2013, 08:17:50 AM Bitcoin clones are basically equivalent to Bitcoin. The page doesn't mention the word "dollar" either, but it obviously applies to dollars. Wow your dumb. Wow, great argument! Welcome to my ignore list. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Qoheleth on March 19, 2013, 09:13:04 AM what does this mean if you sell BTC on Gox? Nothing.The cases that are affected are: 1) Mining coins and then selling them for fiat. 2) Acting as a third party who sends coins from Person A to Person B (neither of whom are you) as part of an exchange of fiat. So, exchanges and miners are affected - nobody else. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: BitPirate on March 19, 2013, 09:49:31 AM I think it is too early to state your conclusion (2).
Does a miner "create" virtual currency? I don't think so -- the currency is created by a decentralised virtual platform and given to them as a reward for computations. I do not think this affects miners. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: BitPirate on March 19, 2013, 09:52:23 AM I should add that I think the law is good news. Big businesses don't like grey areas. Their accountants and CFOs need things spelled out, so they can analyse risks appropriately.
Having some guidance -- albeit rather obvious guidance -- is very helpful and a very promising development. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Monster Tent on March 19, 2013, 10:02:35 AM The US is like the titanic and bitcoin is the iceburg.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: codro on March 19, 2013, 10:19:35 AM I don't see how they could track or even enforce that regulation on miners.
Once passed through an anonymizer, they basically become users of virtual currency - since they won't be owning any of the created coins any more. Since users aren't affected in any way, isn't this an obvious loophole? Of course, they're expecting people to play fair and declare what they're doing, but I don't see how they could ever enforce that regulation. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Monster Tent on March 19, 2013, 10:21:20 AM I don't see how they could track or even enforce that regulation on miners. Once passed through an anonymizer, they basically become users of virtual currency - since they won't be owning any of the created coins any more. Since users aren't affected in any way, isn't this an obvious loophole? Of course, they're expecting people to play fair and declare what they're doing, but I don't see how they could ever enforce that regulation. Just buy gold with btc and exchange for fiat. They just declared it as legal to do so. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: dave111223 on March 19, 2013, 10:56:13 AM Bitcoin clones are basically equivalent to Bitcoin. The page doesn't mention the word "dollar" either, but it obviously applies to dollars. Wow your dumb. great argument! Welcome to my Wow list. Thanks I like partially/misquoting people too. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Newscastix on March 19, 2013, 11:00:43 AM Voted bad. :-\
Why? Because Slippery slope: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1akq4d/regarding_the_fincen_regulations_stop_acting_like/ Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: BitPirate on March 19, 2013, 12:28:27 PM Ah yes, the slippery slope argument -- that's the one that's pretty much universally rejected as a fallacy, right?
Operating in the grey of the law brings more uncertainty to investors than having clear regulations. Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Lethn on March 19, 2013, 12:50:55 PM From what I've gathered of the article, it looks like they're planning on targeting miners because they seem to think that's where all the Bitcoins will come from and if they shut that down they shut the whole thing down, failing to realise of course Bitcoins can be broken up very easily, but of course there is a lot there and there's a lot of PR speak bullshit going on.
Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: Gabi on March 19, 2013, 01:16:47 PM Mining and selling mined coins does not make me a fucking MONEY TRANSMITTER. Am i a money transmitter when i mine and sell gold? No. Same for bitcoin, because it is digital gold.
Oh and let's create Bitcoinland and make bitcoin legal tender there, so it is no more "virtual currency" Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: dave111223 on March 19, 2013, 01:28:43 PM Oh and let's create Bitcoinland and make bitcoin legal tender there, so it is no more "virtual currency" .That's actually an interesting thought, if some small country ( cayman islands or something?) were to make bitcoins a legal tender that would throw a real monkey wrench in all FinCEN's definitions. I don't really see how they'd be able to isolate bitcoin from any other fiat currency. Time to get lobbying some small countries? How about Nauru? Doesn't have their own currency, any high rollers feel like making some donations :D Title: Re: Poll, FinCEN Guidance, Good or Bad? Post by: siggy on March 19, 2013, 02:01:51 PM Soo.. if I contract with a mining pool to provide hashes, and get paid in BTC.. am i a miner? Or is the Pool Op the miner? After all, the mined coins go to HIS wallet when first "created" ...
I'm just providing hashes.. he's the one who's building the new block, and broadcasting it out to the world to be included in the blockchain.... Sigg |