Bitcoin Forum

Hello everyone (including Butterfly Labs hired posters),

My order number with BFL was 14821, pay-dated 12/12/2012. I asked for a refund, but I only got 60 BTC and not 193 BTC as I initially sent. I saw a similar "locked thread" where other folks had the same problem. I paid in BTC, I want my BTC back. I even called Butterfly Labs and the person on the phone was able to produce only two phrases over a 5 min discussion/monologue :

- "we wouldn`t have had this conversation if the price of BTC went down" - totally absurd taking into account the current situation... It`s like saying that the sun won`t rise tomorrow morning. BTC is far from fall.
- "that`s not gonna happen" - I think it will happen and it must happen since BFL is making money out of buying and selling BTC with funds received as preorders.

What most folks here don`t realize is that BFL DOESN`T NEED TO PRODUCE A VALID PRODUCT, they only need to keep the charade going for as much as possible. THEY ARE MAKING MONEY WITH YOUR MONEY and think that are going to get away with it. They have hired posters, and most likely I will get 3-4 answers from members with 100+ posts saying the "refund in USD" story.

Moreover, when I placed my order, I read a post on BFL forums written by Josh himself (accused of fraud... another coincidence maybe) in which he stated that refunds can be made in BTC upon "special request". Of course, the post has magically vanished.....

As educated consumers, we have the right to defend ourselves against this very well elaborated scam. We can:

- file a common law suit ( I will hire an attorney in the following days and display his name so that all of you who are in the same situation may contact him and join me in the lawsuit)
- speak out online. Use websites like ripoffreport.com, aa419.com, scambook.com, ic3.gov to ask for your money back.
- sooner or later law enforcement will come down hard on the company (unless they are already on to it), so time is the essence here.
- don`t be afraid or ashamed to speak out. It is your money and you have the right to fight for it. Strength lies in numbers, let`s bring down the scammers!

I know it sucks, just imagine what it's like for those who paid when bitcoins were $6, they get 10% of their value back, making a refund not even worth the chance that BFL folds vs delivers.

That operation is such cluster f*** and way past the initial delivery date, it's depressing to see so many people have their hopes dashed, waiting on their hands while bitcoin skyrockets and all they get is delay after delay, with a sprinkling of "tough shit" from BFL, but a lawsuit isn't going to help.

I still have hope for them to release ... but this wait is rather ridiculous!

OP is so wrong. (my post has nothing to do with BFL and/or delays/scam.  This is strictly about refund)

Here's what OP wants.

Pays for preorder in BTC at (I believe) $3600.00 back whenever (think in chat he mentioned 193 BTC).  When requested for refund BFL gave him 60 BTC since at current value 60btc=$3600.  Well he wants his 193 BTC back. 

So we ask him what if BTC was lower, then he states he wants his $3600 worth back in BTC.

You can't have it both ways.  You paid $3600 and got refunded $3600.  It's not BFL's fault btc value has changed so much in such a short period.

As to BFL, I have no opinion.  I ordered a jala just for shits and giggles.  Not a serious miner or anything.  Just have 1 gpu at 50% running for the occasional btc for stuff.  I paid for mine in $USD. 

(non BTC example, you buy something from US in Europe over ebay or w/e.  You pay X$ to  be converted into Z euro.  You get item 2 weeks later.  Want refund.  YOu ship back, month has passed.  Person refunds the Euro they received, if exchange rate has changed you may get less or more USD. )

I agree you should get your BTC back for what you paid.

However, if it was the other way around (BTC losing a lot of money and you getting the same amount of BTC you paid) you would have created the same post.

My guess is - read the Ts&Cs, it'll say how they refund.

I have even asked for refund and they did not hesitate.. soo I ended up keeping the pre-oreder.

Please keep me posted on your progress. I am keenly interested in seeing you help light the way for all those sitting on a sore butt.

You people need to listen carefully and act accordingly. For those still debating - please follow suit and request a refund at your earliest convenience so as to minimize your loss.

Mmmmkay? That's all.

FTFY - OP purchased 2 Singles @ $2600, not $3600.

What's interesting is that OP was refunded 60 BTC, which today is valued at almost $4500... hmm...

As long as BFL is giving refunds when asked, you will have a tough time proving your damages in court.  

You could try to argue that you have "consequential or expectancy" (different courts use the terms interchangeably even though they have different meanings), in that if BFL had delivered when they first said they would you would have made more $ because of the lower difficulty.  That argument would likely fail for a dozen reasons though.  

Otherwise you could try to argue that BFL has violated the FTC rules regarding preorders.  But what is that going to get you?  Nominal damages?  (I haven't read the statute to see if the statute defines damages, but I would imagine it doesn't.)  So congratulations.  You just spent tens of thousands of $'s to win $1-$5 in nominal damages.  

So I would wait until you have actually been damaged by BFL before filing suit.  A damage the court would recognize would be if they refused to give you a refund after asking for one.  And this would be easy to prove as well.  

(I didn't completely read OP before posting this)  So after doing so, here's an addendum:

The court is going to laugh you out of the courtroom if you try to argue that you should have received the same amount of BTC in your refund that you sent in.  There are numerous cases dealing with the stock market and currency fluctuations that reject that argument.  You are entitled to the same "value" denominated in USD that you sent in.  You would receive a windfall profit otherwise, and the courts despise giving a plaintiff more than they lost. 

Yeah my bad.  Still.  My point stands either way.

Yep, sure does!  And so does mine: he got 60BTC refund right? that's like $4,500 today.. so he should be well more than good.
By the way, I get paid to say this.

How do i get in on that job damn it? (i just heard of BFL in march, and ordered my jala then, just stupid people annoy me).

Oh you had to order sooner than that to get paid. But if you do a magic dance in the rain with turtles at your feet and flowers in your hands.. who knows!

Now I just gotta wait for it to rain.

it's time to pray for BFL to deliver and order an avalon batch 3  ::)

Thank you for adding some sensibility to this thread.

Yes. People, please for once listen to this man. He IS a lawyer. He tells you exactly what any other lawyer would tell you, if you actually spoke to one (which invariably never happens).

Yep, they have hired posters and at least one of the forum mods as well...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.0

On topic:  Please do file a lawsuit.  I would love to laugh at it.

LOL... How would I receive a windfall profit by paying BTC100 to BFL and getting a refund for BTC100? You must be joking.

Not joking.  Simple math. 

Yeah, it's very simple indeed. Read about it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.msg1460143#msg1460143

I'm not saying that you have to like it.  Tom @ bASIC still owes me money.  I don't like the fact that I'm going to get less in BTC than what I sent him.  I'm just saying that's what in my opinion the law is. 

Yep, but what I'm saying it's a question of simple math, right? Every court will accept that 2+2=4.

You're being intentionally dense.  And therefore, I'm done replying to you on this issue. 

You've just said it's a question of simple math. Well, I have shown my calculations. What is your math?

$1300 is $1300.  You ordered a unit for $1300, paying for it with Bitcoins.  You can receive a refund of $1300, either in USD or Bitcoins.  You did NOT buy a unit for X number of Bitcoins.  That was simply the method of payment.

This. Dollar is legal tender, bitcoin is not. All a court can do is assess your damage expressed in legal tender and force BFL to pay - in legal tender. Particularly when BFL priced the item in legal tender.
Good luck getting a court to refund your non legal tender, its just not going to work.

I normally hate it when I get wrapped up into reading an entire thread of uselessness. This one is quite entertaining though. I've been laughing at the OP and all of the reactions that this thread has caused since.

My 2 cents or rather 2 Satoshis,

$3600 = $3600
Don't be greedy.

It simply is not true. I've already proved it to you.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137026.msg1460393#msg1460393

I'm not, BFL are. They are soooo greedy that they are desperately trying to convince me that BTC10=BTC60... Laughable.

No, it's not priced in Bitcoins.  If it was priced in Bitcoins, you would see on the homepage:
"Now Available for Order: 60 GH/s Bitcoin Miner - 150 BTC"
NOT
"Now Available for Order: 60 GH/s Bitcoin Miner - $1,299"

If it was priced in Bitcoins, you would see on the product order page:
"60 GH/s Bitcoin Miner, BitForce Single SC, 150 BTC"
NOT
"60 GH/s Bitcoin Miner, BitForce Single SC, $1,299.00"

The number of BTC paid is only shown on the invoice because they HAVE to show it SOMEWHERE if that is your payment method.  It doesn't mean that the units are priced in BTC - only that BTC is a payment option for the units priced in USD.

You are seriously out of your mind.

Oh look, it's becoin.

Have you talked to your lawyer yet and made a video of that talk for us? It's been 2 months now.

It doesn't matter what is on the homepage. Only thing that matters is what's on the invoice. Invoice is the commercial document! Learn your lesson, buddy!

Method of payment is paying by credit card, bank wire, paypal, check. You use a method of payment to transfer currency. Looking at bitcoin.org only definition I see is:


Where can I read that bitcoin is a method of paying $US?

Guess what else is on the invoice?  The price they are selling the unit for.  In USD.

So tell me, why, exactly, the price in BTC that is ONLY shown on the invoice should somehow supercede the price that is shown EVERYWHERE, the invoice included?

It doesn't supersede! Both are equally valid if there are 2 prices in 2 different currencies shown on the invoice!

Alright buddy, you keep believing that.  Let us know when you get a court to agree with you.

OP, I think I saw your post on the BFL forums and your request was perfectly answered there. you just don't get it.

btc is not an authorized medium of circulation.  You cannot sue anyone. 

You paid for your hardware in dollars, even if you used btc. you got refunded the amount in $ that you payed.  its not hard to understand. Your kinda pathetic attempt of making some money on BFLs cost is pretty transparent and no, it won't work.

Do you think a company paying employees and taxes in government money could simply do that? You should be happy that they returned the funds - pre-ordering normally doesn't work like that.

I heard from other company owners that some people are wanting their money back in BTC after the value goes up. People like you are the reason why there are still not many places to spend Bitcoins: nobody wants a customer like you!

+1 LOL

Yeah, he's a stubborn douche.

Three words OP: deal with it.

Don´t feed the trolls!

I bet a lot less people would be complaining of Bitcoin prices were dropping since they placed their pre-orders.

-S M I L Y

This is a thread for the history books - an early example of what might kill bitcoins in the future.

While I can understand why the OP is annoyed, the simple truth is that a deal is a deal in time as well as in legal tender.

Buying and selling in bitcoins can only work if the price is set using a fixed exchange based on time.

If this means that bitcoin doesn't become a currency, then we will have lost a lot of the potential which is currently driving the market.

That would be a shame

;(

I disagree.  It just means that merchants need to work harder to explain refund policies and purchase prices.

"Though we accept payment in Bitcoins, the purchase price for our products or services is denominated in USD.  In the event of a refund, you will receive Bitcoins or USD equivalent to the purchase price denominated in USD."

OR

"Though we accept payment in USD, the purchase price for our products or services is denominated in Bitcoins. In the event of a refund, you will receive Bitcoins or USD equivalent to the purchase price denominated in Bitcoins."

If they don't, then they'll continue to annoy stubborn and greedy individuals such as the ones showcased in this thread.

Hahaha... Oh boy... The oldest rule of marketing is "Customer is the king". Crooks like BFL and paid fanboys like you are the reason why bitcoin is not widely accepted AS A CURRENCY. They think bitcoin is not a currency but just A METHOD OF PAYING $US! If the future of bitcoin depends on such crooks like BFL, bitcoin will always be a lame currency that will always need a crutch ($US) to move around! Is that really what we all want? No, thanks!

It is very simple indeed. If a company can not handle BTC/USD exchange risk they should not announce that they accept payments in BTC. Period!

Then you're professional idiot! Learn what is the FTC definition for "pre-order"! Even a professional idiot will see how BFL is breaking the law!

Visit http://butterflylabs.com/ and tell me what is the text on the button? Is it "pay upfront now" or is it "pre-order now"?

I told you you're professional idiot... You are defending a company without even having visited their website!

It doesn't matter how much they are valued, 5 times more or 50 times more. Those coins are his coins, not BFL's coins. Those coins were his coins BEFORE he sent them to BFL! They would have been BFL's coins if BFL had delivered what they have promised, but they didn't. Processing only partial bitcoin refunds BFL gets free option call on BTC/USD exchange rate. No court of law will tolerate this!

OP I feel ya, BFL is frustrating to work with. You need to keep in mind that they are not a Wal-Mart, just a small company. I believe they will come through, but would appreciate if more people in front of me got refunds. :)

I ordered the jalapeno recently I'm not forking over for a larger unit as I'm considering it a gamble at this point.

Bitcoin forces people to deal with the concept of money -- reactions may vary.

Everybody disillusioned with BFL, please do continue cancelling your pre-orders. I enjoy moving up in the queue.

All Avalon customers are in front of you. Do you really appreciate it? Well, enjoy! Some people are born to be suckers.

I did cancel but only because I purchased a higher model and it was less than a week from the original order :)  Decided on the 30GH/s model instead of the jalapeno.

+1 - Nice!

Agreed BTC is a currency, BTC is backed by American currency it seems. Or rather compared to American Currency.

I'm not getting paid for anything I post here - or anywhere else. Do they offer something like that? :P
It's always your decision to buy something or invest in something - it always starts with a customer making a bad decision (e.g. investing in products of a brand new/unknown business). I also made some bad decision, but I tried to find consensus and got most of my BTC back.


As long as he/she is paying. And it seems you're asking others to file a lawsuit against BFL and publicly complaining about them rather than trying to get your money back → costs for a company (reputation/legal costs) > income: you're definitely not a king.


How do you know what they think? If more employees wanted to get paid in BTC and other companies they're working with did it, it would be possible, but right now most companies producing something need to have government money.


The future of bitcoin doesn't depend on them.


You want to get the same amount of BTC back and you're asking for that after the exchange rate increased a lot. For government issued money it's possible to do that, because it's being printed all the time, but paying with bitcoin and asking for a refund of the same amount is like asking to get your gold/silver back after the exchange rate increases. Could you make a company and handle this after Bitcoin goes up by >%500 ? I highly doubt it.

+1 - I think the drawing a parallel to gold may actually help get through to this guy. That might be a bit of a stretch, but you have a good point.

If they clearly stated below facts in agreement,

1. Main currency is USD or other real currencies.
2. They offer BTC acceptance as a side option. In other words, It's just an exchange service between BTC and USD.
3. Therefore, BTC payment do not construct a direct payment.
4. If you paid in BTC, amount of BTC you need to pay is determined by the exchange rate of the time of payment
5. Likewise, If you ask a refund in BTC, amount of refund in BTC will be determined by the exchange rate of the time of refund.

I think it's done deal unless they use unrealistic exchange rate.

Let's say you bought a very fast computer with your one kilograms gold bar.

CASE1. Merchant originally accept 1kg gold for 1 computer deal.
CASE2. Merchant originally accept USD for 1 computer and they have an additional service which is "Take some gold and exchange it to USD"

In Case 1, If you give them 1kg gold for a computer, you will get 1kg gold refund.
In Case 2, If you give them 1kg gold for a computer, you will get USD refund.
And if you wish to receive your refund as gold, exchange rate at the time of refund will be applied to determine how much gold you will get.

They can't offer this option. They have no right to do this! To be "just" an exchange service you have to be "just" regulated as an exchange service... like MtGox, for instance!

CASE3. Merchant doesn't sell you anything. Merchant just accepted your gold as a guarantee for PRE-ORDERING something!

This is exactly how any sort of purchase in a foreign currency works. You pay money out of your account in USD, it is converted to the destination company's currency, and they deposit the money they receive in their native currency.

Assume Euros were trading 2 Euro for 1 USD. You order something from France for 100 Euro. You use your debit card to pay for it, and 50 USD comes out of your account. The French company does not have 50 USD sitting around, they have 100 Euro in their bank account. The currency exchange is handled by one of the intermediate banks.

A month goes by, you decide you want to return your product. One of three things might happen.

1 - USD/Euro hasn't moved. So you get 50 USD back.

2- Yay, USD is weaker vs the Euro at 1:1 now. So you get refunded 100 Euro which is converted to 100 USD. You came out $50 ahead.

3- Oh no, USD is stronger vs the Euro at 4:1 now. So you get refunded 100 Euro which is converted to 25 USD and you lost $25.

In all three cases, the company sold and refunded 100 Euro. They aren't engaging in currency speculation or market making. The funds you sent them are converted to Euro to do the sale. This is why large companies making large overseas orders will buy hedges against currency rate changes, so your costs don't skyrocket when the next bill is due because your native currency has grown weaker vs the foreign currency.

In this case you purchased a good from a company selling products in USD. The currency you used was bitcoin. It was converted to USD for purposes of this transaction based on the going exchange rate. If you want a refund in bitcoin, you get refunded in USD and it will convert back to bitcoin (or Euros, or whatever currency) at the going exchange rate.

If BFL didn't do it this way, it'd be dangerously irresponsible. They'd be using your pre-order funds to engage in currency speculation instead of producing hardware. What if the value of bitcoins dropped to 1/100 from the time you placed your order, and they were holding bitcoin not USD? Now the (say) $1500 USD you paid in bitcoin is only worth $15 when they convert it to USD to pay their suppliers, payroll, etc. They'd be bankrupt in a moment. And I'm sure history is full of companies that went bankrupt because of a massive overseas transaction + rapid currency movement + lack of hedging.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Read something about how credit card system works. What is the role of the credit card issuing bank? What is the role of the credit card processor?

When you have a credit card account run in euro but you pay usd priced product, YOUR bank is doing the currency conversion for you. You have agreed to this when you have signed the credit card issuing agreement. The credit card issuing bank is converging your euros into dollars and is SENDING dollars. The TRANSACTION currency is dollars! A refund is nothing else but a REVERSAL of a transaction. This is why you get back dollars which are applied back to your euro account at current exchange rate. YOUR bank has a license to exchange currencies! It is regulated to do that!

I've SENT exact amount in bitcoin EXACTLY to the bitcoin address BFL asked me to send to. I'm not a BitPay customer. I have not signed any agreement with BitPay. BFL is a BitPay customer. Bitpay is doing currency conversion for BFL as per the contract between BFL and BitPay. When I paid bitcoins for pre-ordering from BFL the TRANSACTION currency is bitcoin. This is why the refund must be in bitcoin, not in dollars. If BFL claim I have sent dollars they must tell what bank dollar account I've used to do that?

Please stop talking until you get a courtroom to agree with you.

That's BS!

1. They don't use pre-order money for production because after ALMOST an year they have produced NOTHING! Actually BFL customers are INVESTORS! Read the definition of FTC what is "pre-order" first before writing above nonsense! The maximum period for a delay while pre-ordering is 4 month. When did BFL start taking "pre-orders"?

2. BFL lied they have attracted VC! This is why they used pre-order money to pay their salaries.

3. Taking their customers bitcoins and refunding dollars BFL actually gets free option call to profit from possible bitcoin appreciation WITHOUT paying any premium. No court of law will tolerate such a behavior.

4. History is full of scammers trying to profit from peoples greed. BFL can't go bankrupt because they have promised nothing to their investors (pardon me, pre-ordering customers)! It is irresponsible AND ILLEGAL to treat your investors like that!

I've my own ongoing experience with BFL, which hasn't been positive.  I've grown weary of their canned responses and refusal to work with me--interestingly, once they learned I had consulted an attorney, they ceased responding to my communications outright.  And that leaves me no other choice, but the obvious.

This all feels like a very clever ponzi scheme (think about that).   

It won't last, regardless of opinions, once enough people file official legal complaints with various governmental entities, this will be resolved.  Class action or otherwise.

Having said that, I will continue to believe in small technology startups.  BFL is an unfortunate exception to the spirit of what this represents.

lots of people have problems with this company, so maybe there is some promise there. but i don't know, a lawsuit? good luck i suppose!!!!  :D

good luck if you do!!!  :)

I hope someone does! it's pretty messed up, this whole long, drawn out situation!!  :-\

I suspect this is a cleverly crafted PONZI scheme, where they are utilizing our funds to develop and utilize technology in order to mine bitcoin (for themselves), while "planning" to ship some to paying customers -- all the while, driving up the difficulty level, so that IF someone gets their devices, they will be essentially worthless for this purpose.   THEY benefit, everyone else loses.

It's very clever, but it's still a PONZI scheme and that is blatantly illegal. 

I recommend those who have been ripped off to file detailed complaints with the FTC and their State's Attorney General, to start.   

It is likely a matter of time before someone at BFL goes to jail.

It's unfortunate, as it really undermines the public's confidence in independent research.

Bring them dooooown!

We're happy we didn't invest in it. But does anyone suggest a good place to buy those FPGA alternatives?

There is a Law firm investigating to file a suit against BFL.

Technically if you have ordered anything at first discount starting December 2013, and second discount starting January 2014 you have lost ~75% of the value per today. And in neither of the cases your order would qualify for an upgrade.

Check what that company says on their website:
http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

@OP, why don't you post it from an account that doesn't have 1 activity, what are you afraid of?

What was the value of 1 btc back in 2012?

Nevermind I didn't read the date of this thread.. Someone necro'd it, should've known better. My bad.

It was around $5 in early 2012, and the high was around $15 in Aug 2012.
https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?timespan=all