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This is a fucking disaster. 2 coins are surviving for a long time now, they are even in huge exchanges together like Poloniex, and solid developers are joining the project too.

Idiots like Brian Amrstrong saying that they were sure the fork would disappear quick and 2 coins would not survive together... well guess what, you morons are WRONG. Now you have 2 fucking coins to worry about, good luck with that. Meanwhile in Bitcoin we stick together with the best team (Core) that has been delivering the best code for years now. We will never be subjected to his amateurism. Bitcoin lives on as the king and haters are as salty as ever. Let's keep on winning.

Bitcoin is always the best despite of all other new entries  :) widely accepted all over the world

For the Eth fundsters and bag holders its a disaster for THEM.

For the rest of us ETC could really turn out to be a good thing, a unforked version that holds true to its core values instead of throwing all your morals out the window.  This is literally the same ethereum from a week ago so in the future things could end up being really good for us.

A lot of people were against the fork so this could drawl some talented dev to take care of whatever contract problems and dapp problems that could rise from having 2 chains, im really uninformed in that area.  Its a HUGE risk at this point but the fact remains you can get ethereum coins at around 60 cents a piece instead of 13 bucks and that price could explode in the future.

Then again ETC could drift off into the sunset never to be seen again.

either way I would never expect any less of the altcoin market, this is the shit we live for.

ETC has been outed as a scam shitcoinage that is unsupported, undeveloped, prone to 51% attack, and double spend replay attack vectors.

what ethereum developer did on his own was the argument between bitcoin giants a year ago! and the decision was that hard fork is never good and forks should only happen if everybody (or at least the majority) are agreeing with it so that you prevent this disaster that we are seeing today with ethereum

I agree it is now all bullshit sham you can see how improper ETH (and ETC) now is for ecosystem and should NOT be having such value.  It is all just game for big players using this coins as pawns and get all the btc from pnd action they can.  Very stupid.

Please stick to real stuff.

In a few days, when the DAO hacker starts to dump the stolen ETC, the ETC price will be dumped to zero.

Would definitely appeal to my sense of humour if the hacker now returns the coins.

How does such an obvious scamcoin get listed so quickly on a supposedly reputable exchange such as poloniex?  ???

it's the original chain. what's scammy about it? how it's being pitched and treated seems reasonable to me. i can see their point behind it.

and exchanges are nobody's friend. they're in the business of making money. if every eth holder suddenly gets free etc then that's a huge market they'd be crazy not to exploit. check the volumes and add those fees up. 

And it was so obvious it wouldn't take long you to come here and shill for your centralized shitcoin. :D
Sorry but your wrong buddy.The real chain will survive how it looks like.
And maybe I will buy a bit of ETC.Looks to me like a cheap opportunity for the moment.Two coins who can do the same but one much more attractive for some nice speculation.
Furthermore there are people within the Ethereum community who appreciate the real concept of a decentralized and immutable blockchain.
I have a lot of respect for those guys.

The problem is that ETC price is dropping. Yesterday, I mined it and sold the ETC to the buyers. Today, I don't mine it.

Who said Poloniex is not a scam exchange,
look at their trading volume, it is faked,
look at their margin calls, they are manipulated ,
now a way to double sell ethereum coins from before the fork, just another sign of how they do business.  :P


 8)

You are correct price and hash rate have collapsed. It's insecure for any investor.

Well to a smart investor it looks like an opportunity.

You are right. The ETC price rose 300% in the last day. The hash rate also increased a lot. Somebody made profit.

And today?

Ethereum Classic is excellent proof that forks absolutely must happen, to release pressure of unhappy users from the cooker. Forking is a healthy process in open-source crypto, forking should be celebrated by all freedom lovers. You are not confined to the boundaries of a tyrannical chain, you're free to fork away.

Boy you two are real Svengali's!

Today, the price is rising. It is quite difficult to find the find price for the ETC. But time will tell in the future.

Why is it a scam? It's simply the Ethereum blockchain. A couple ETH devs even came out in support of Classic. Gavin Wood announced that a Parity client is being developed for ETC holders.

Prone to 51% attack? Sure, go ahead and waste money trying to censor the chain. Have fun.

Both chains are susceptible to replay attacks. Replay attacks are also incredibly easy to avoid.

excellent points.
there was a time -at the start of the arguments for increasing bitcoin block size- that I was mad why don't they just fork it and get it over with. but I read a very good topic with arguments about this issue on reddit that helped me understand why it is a terrible idea to just jump in and change things without everybody on board. and now this is the living proof for all those arguments back then.
this really shows the power of bitcoin and the developers team and the community it has over a pump and dump altcoin with no (decent) developer and a community that doesn't even support the blockchain by running a full node and every single one of them are either holding their coins at exchanges or in online wallets.

ETC is the DAO attackers little sideproject to make some value for his coins. And to be able to sell them at all. Prepare for the dump, lol...

Amen !

What shall we then say about the ETH fork ?  Whose project was that ?

Eth is the alt dump project of the original developers.

Only the market can decide which is their favorite dumper. I like dao guy. You know where you stand with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzuRXLzqKk

Yeah he does seem like an idiot from what I've read.


I heard he's going to use the funds to help develop and increase his net worth. Why did you hear differently?

Where did you hear about that? That will be an interesting development if that is true. But I would doubt that.

After the big ETC holders who are the large owners of the ETH as well dump the ETC, the ETC price could drop.

I see ETC becoming the dominant chain paving the way for a big block bitcoin hard fork, both these events will shift power away from the cental planners and miners back to the users.

Ethereum's fork is awesome, that's the real decentralization and empowerment.

Some people agree with fork, some don't, now everyone has their own chain, no one dictates the rules to each other.

Amen to that !

Once the hacker dumps the price will likely go up a long way

All systems are rigged from the stock markets to crypto currencies. There is too many early btc stakeholders in ETH to let it die, they will keep the market propped up and hope for the best. There is no real price discovery in the alt coin market.

You might be right. The big Ethereum holder will keep the ETH alive. It is in their best interest to do so.

I have to disagree. What has happened with the Ethers, ETH/ETC has nothing to do with the situation in Bitcoin. Bitcoin has successfully hard forked on one or more occasion and may well do so in the future. The reason there has not been a hard fork in Bitcoin over the blocksize issue is that nobody has proposed a real solution to the blocksize scaling issue that actually works over the long term. Without such a solution the necessary consensus in the Bitcoin community is simply not there.

What makes the Ethereum hard fork different and a very dangerous precedent is that this hard fork was not about significantly improving Ethereum or about fixing a vulnerability in the Ethereum code. These are situations where immutability of coin ownership on the blockchain is preserved, It was about reversing a particular set of transactions. The prevention of this kind of transaction censorship is why Bitcoin was invented in the first place. If one reads Satoshi's original Bitcoin paper https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf (https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf) this becomes readily apparent.

What Vitalik has done here is actually prove Satoshi wrong, since a highly distributed Proof of Work blockchain is not enough to prevent this kind of attack. This attack worked because it used persuasion rather than force. It relies on manufacturing a clearly identified  enemy and then persuading the majority that attacking this enemy is in the majority's best interest. History has many examples where this approach has led to war, genocide etc. A critical component of this attack is that the majority must be able to clearly identify the enemy and then launch the targeted attack.

ETC is just as vulnerable here as the pre fork ETH. Consider for example if the enemy was a "really evil" bank that had just been bailed out by the taxpayers at great expense. In that respect so is Bitcoin and any in the clear blockchain, including Litecoin for example. One solution worth considering here is to blind the censor by using an anonymous blockchain. For example it is next to impossible to pull of this kind on attack in Monero, in spite of the fact that Monero has hard forked in the past and is scheduled to hard fork in the future. What the Ethereum hard fork has done here is make the case for anon coins much stronger.  

Edit: The answer here is not to prevent a hard fork, it is instead to prevent a hard fork that only targets specific transactions.

Every Alt coin is only as good as the Devs who pick it up, no? I'm a little new to the altcoin world but my perception is why fork unless you have the devs plans in advance to capitalize on it?

Brilliant analysis.  We've explored the limits of block chain technology and its failure to deliver immutability, we've seen the first successful sustained 51% attack, and a genuine fork at the same time, in not even 2 weeks time.

I fully agree with you, and for a long time I've been arguing that anonymity is a necessary component, exactly because you can't identify the enemy.

OK look I agree that under the right circumstances a hard fork can be beneficial but it all depends on full disclosure, what was the announcement for it (i know im very behind here and trying to understand) Im reading through this thread and reading things about "trying to hide a particular set of transactions"

does anyone know the official reason from the devs for a hard fork?

from:  https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/ (https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/)

Edit 1: The "enemy" here is the Dark DAO.
Edit 2: On July 20th, 2016 12 Million ETH were worth approximately 145 Million USD. The seizure of funds was done with no due process of law. It remains an open legal question where this seizure of funds was even lawful or even if the "DAO Hacker" was legally in the right. Can someone please point out to me a court of law in a competent jurisdiction that has actually ruled on the matter.  
Edit 3: Even the US Government is not immune from this attack if they are branded "the enemy" as this old thread illustrates. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=306809.0;all (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=306809.0;all)

Very interesting, hardly full disclosure to say the least

I heard the rise of the ETC is due to the pump by the bitcoin owners. So they like the hard fork of the coins.

The bitcoin price dropped 20% in the last few months. The ability to pump the ETC has reduce a bit.

both of you are only relating two things that has no relationship with each other. bitcoin and ethereum rise and falls has nothing to do with each other.

ETC is being pumped because why not, it is the hot topic of these days and there is a lot of profit in it.
but BTC has experienced a drop because of the bitfinex hack and neither BTC rise nor its fall has anything to do with ethereum and its price.

I heard some developers will not support the ETC. So the ETC price has dropped about 40% in the last few days.

The ETC price has recovered somewhat. It seems the ETC investors are quite rich, they can absorb big dump.

The ETC investors need to be rich enough to absorb the dump of the DAO hackers and the Ethereum Foundation.

Getting the Ethereum foundation out might actually do it a world of good.
These dumps were the last weapons of the ETH brigade. Now there is no more hold that ETH backers have on ETC.

The Ethereum Foundation has fewer ETC than the black hat hacker and the white hat hacker. So the hackers are more important.

in no way did a hard fork ever mean the price would not go up, and i also do not believe the big dump is coming, as its not the most profitable way for the hacker to sell of his stack

Solidity Version 0.3.6 Released. Should the ETC holders upgrade their wallet?

https://github.com/ethereum/solidity/releases/tag/v0.3.6

For the time being, it is up to the ETC holders to decide if they want to update. In the future, it will have nothing to do with ETH.

I hope ETC forks to become PoW only and ETH forks to become PoS so ETC has a bigger reason to exist, differentiation is key and PoW+immutable is great.

That is my hope as well. That will make the mining a good business. Otherwise we have to find places for those GPU.

ETC will rally which will be the exact reason they'll use to fork Bitcoin. 

I do not think there will be a hard fork for the bitcoin. There will be only soft forks. That is much safer.

Hardforking is fine.  Hardforking to steal money, no matter the reason why, is very controversial and bound to cause problems.

A soft fork has the "advantage" that it is compulsory if you have a majority of miners with you, no matter what your users think.
In other words, with a soft fork, if you have 51% of the miners with you, you can shove it down the throats of the whole community.
A hard fork only needs ONE miner to disagree, and the other chain lives on.  Next, the users will determine the relative market caps, and in the end, the mining that depends on the market cap (the block reward and the difficulty determine the profitability).

But I don't see how bitcoin could avoid hard forking.  If I were to invent an altcoin, I would design it as a fork from bitcoin, to solve the issue of initial distribution, to have directly a large user base (all bitcoin holders get "free money" and become directly coin holders) and to have a serious kicking off its trading.

It is very strange that most alts start new chains with a new genesis block, instead of using the bitcoin chain as point of departure.

Bitcoin has some pretty big problems, the double spend exploits are getting pretty rampant now and their system of devoting all their rewards to hashing gives you pretty extreme diminishing rewards.
DASH will be the future, after evolution launches next year

double spending for what for the malleability issue? i thought that was only an exchange issue and was fixed already with last version, bitcoin only need other few update to be really the best one

There is no problem of double spending in the Etheruem. For the small coins with less hashing power, there could be such problems.

Maybe I didn't explain myself accordingly. I meant that Bitcoin must never hard fork in a stupid rushed way, a hard fork must be conservative and for real reasons, not some bullshit hack or a hypothetical apocalypse if we don't raise the blocksize by tomorrow.

You do realise that ETH was up against a tight deadline to hardfork. We didn't take the action lightly. When all is said and done it was the right thing to do. Thieves should never prosper.

It seems that the ETC might hard fork as well.

https://news.bitcoin.com/ethereum-plans-hard-fork-twice/

What the Experts Tweeted about the Ethereum Hard Fork, Ethereum Classic

Malicious Actors Attacking the Ethereum Network

EthereumOver the past few weeks, the Ethereum network has seen troubling times. An attacker or group of actors has been “crafty” by finding attack vectors to hinder the network.

Lead developers believe the exploits have been due to the low cost of “gas,” which powers Ethereum smart contracts. The low gas prices have given the attacker the ability to threaten the network with constant denial of service attacks.

The official Ethereum blog explains the need for a hard fork stating:

“While the recent patches have led to an overall increased resiliency in the client implementations, the attacks have also demonstrated that a lower-level change to the EVM pricing model is needed. For many users, the most visible consequence is probably that they are having difficulties getting transactions included in blocks, and full nodes are facing memory limitations in managing the bloated state.”

The hard fork is intended to raise gas prices to make it more difficult for the attacker to disrupt the Ethereum blockchain and clients. Currently, exchanges have been having difficulty with Ether withdrawals and deposits due to extremely slow confirmation times. ShapeShift revealed on October 13 that this is affecting Ethereum assets such as REP and Digix DGD. According to social media and Ethereum forums, the cost of gas will be considerably higher after the fork.

Block 2457000 and the Second Hard Fork

forkMany in the Ethereum community seem to support this planned hard fork. The first hard fork during the summer was very controversial and led to some unexpected results.

The last fork was contentious because the network broke its immutability and reversed a third-party application’s mistake. This maneuver, many believe, is more like a patch and will not see the same results.

The Ethereum blog recommends all miners to lower the gas limit to 500K gas. The hard fork created from EIP 150 version 1c will start at block height 2457000. Martin Swende says, “this will reprice certain operations to correspond better to the underlying computational complexity.” Following the uncontroversial fork, the developer says a second hard fork will commence shortly after.

“A second hard-fork will follow shortly after, aimed at reverting the current “state-bloat” introduced by the attacks. This second fork will serve to remove accounts which are empty; lacking code, balance, storage and nonce == 0,” explains Swende.

All Eyes Will Be Watching Ethereum’s Next Forks

The entire cryptocurrency community will once again watch this network and community shuffle towards a fix. On the Ethereum subreddit, there has been some infighting about the fork, with discussions mainly focused on the DAO refund. Some have even expressed concern about the birth of another Ethereum offshoot like Ethereum Classic. Others are having a difficult time trying to understand the second “state-bloat” fork.

Ethereum developers say they have implemented the necessary changes within clients and are testing for “consensus-breaking vulnerabilities.” The hard fork seems pretty much definite, and most of the community members are following the lead developers advice. Furthermore, Ethereum engineers have also added the fork to the Ethereum Bug Bounty. Community members are encouraged to search for attack vectors and bugs for a reward.

Bitcoin is father of all coins!