Bitcoin Forum

If you think about this it is pretty obvious that the mind set and mentality of the majority of Bitcoins users is what is holding Bitcoin back and what could be the downfall of Bitcoin in the long run.

Everyone is so scared of being scammed and go to great lengths to try and 'help' others not to get scammed that it makes Bitcoin an unattractive payment method for shops to accept. Escrow is one of the most absurd things about Bitcoin - what happened to buyer beware? Now it is seller AND buyer beware as you still can't fully trust the escrow. While I accept that if I want to sell something as a new member I have to use escrow - fine for cheap items, I would not risk selling something expensive and sending it to the buyer until the funds were firmly in my possession, this is how it has always been and how it should remain. The buyer should be the one to take on the risk - they can decide not to do this and move on, that is also fine but the buyer should not be able to dictate terms to the seller, it should be the other way around. The buyer is not forced to buy.

Also the method of buying Bitcoin is tedious at best. Until we can effortlessly buy Bitcoin with a credit card - without having to make an account at an exchange, Bitcoin will not reach its full potential, I know I have spoken to friends who don't touch Bitcoin as they cant buy it as they could gold for example.

Until Bitcoin is treated like any other currency or commodity it will not become what it should be.

Stop holding it back, a few people being scammed (usually down to their own stupidity) is and can be for the greater good. I not talking about blatant theft, if someone buys Bitcoin from a new member, with no history, no trust and no proof then it is their fault.

The current situation of bitcoin is actually better than what it was before. If it stays this way still forever, i think its a lot better.  its people the need bitcoin this time so if new comers don't adopt we can't do anything about it.  They can buy elsewhere like bitfinex or coinbase if they can't do it in the forums.

I think that if you don't come on here accusing us or talking shit we're all pretty damn helpful.

Mostly it just sounds like you're a scammer that's been beat by the system.

If you have a problem with the method items are purchased and sold here you can take your business elsewhere.

and...lmfao...this forum isn't holding bitcoin back..

Your response is exactly what I'm talking about.

Unfounded accusations and a complete misunderstanding of points put forward.

it is not the solution. some people may not be able to make transactions. of course everyone will do everything for profit.

i agree that users are responsible for bitcoins holdup, but the users are also responsible for bitcoins rise. what i have found is that the more knowledge a user has the more helpful he is.
but back to your point. why do you think people are scared of being scammed? because it is happening all the time if you are not cautious. just look at the thread about p2p lending (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1625932.0) at this point trusting is the same as giving away and why would i wan to give away my money?
why would i tell my friends to use bitcoin and trust others, when the chances are high that they get scammed? do you think they will like it and stay with bitcoin and tell their friends, even when they are loosing money?

i never said it was a solution. but still the current situation is better.
everyone will be able to make transactions so long as they acquire bitcoin. the only thing they need to find is some sellers on localbitcoin if they really have the will to buy bitcoin, there are lots of ways.

What do you see bitcoin in the next 10-15 years ? If you see it as a currency that is accepted everywhere, it cannot become that without safeguarding the users from the scams. Escrow is actually the best thing there is for that purpose.

Also there are already sites where you can buy bitcoins directly with a CC.

I find the issue is that you still need to trust the escrow.

Where can I buy Bitcoin with CC online, I'm in Hong Kong?

How can we safeguard them from scams if they are the ones pushing toward pyramid schemes and such things? We cannot do that unless they wake up. We've had so many scams lately and people still do not understand that they NEED to be secure 10 out of 10 times. Bitcoin is seen by most of us ad a trading currency.. For many, it's being considered as being like a poker chip for gambling. In many countries like mine, Bitcoin hasn't even been heard by many.

I don't think that something is holding it back Bitcoin is doing very well and growing steadily imo,but I agree that things could be even better.About the safety as long as we have the option to use escrow there is nothing to afraid and we are safe,the only problem is that many newbies are not aware of it.

If bitcoin is left as is then it will be one of the best stores of value that will rise in time so would make a good investment but if people are wanting to use it as an actual currency then obviously the current blocksize would need to be increased. I still have high hopes for future price rises with bitcoin but with so many alts popping up you start to wonder.

bitcoin is just code.

people should not sit on their hands and think that bitcoin will do something special to suddenly make walmart accept it.
PEOPLE have to make decisions to start businesses or if you already have a business decide to accept bitcoin.

so i agree with the OP part that users are the problem.

people need to start looking around there home towns and find other bitcoiners.
set up some social events like bitcoin meetups at a bar if its only a couple of you or proper events if your in a popular area.

get to know people and start trading bitcoins as usually if there are a few people there is always someone that wants cash and another person wants bitcoins.

get to know people and start bitcoin businesses in your towns/cities.

but i disagree with the OP part about buying bitcoin with a credit card. well thats just the same as buying something with a cheque signed with that special ink that fades after an hour until its disappeared. (it wont get accepted)

in which case you need to know who the other person is to slap them with a wet fish or court order should they do you wrong.. but thats where the OP falls down a never ending spiral by halfway through the post saying he wants bitcoin to be bought without having to give proof of id(register) but then blames bitcoin sellers at the end of the post if they dont ask for enough proof of id

what makes escrow absurd? even if someone gonna make a transaction to an individual that's stranger for the buyers through bank transfer they will also use escrow to prevent from any scamming attempt,as you say that actually buyers and sellers can't fully trust escrow,just seek for the most trusted ones
if there's a way to go without risk,why choosing to do this one?
even though i'm agree that bitcoin users are actually holding bitcoin back

in my opinion the only thing that is holding bitcoin back is users "resisting using bitcoin as a currency" and this is not the downfall as you suggest in your first post but it definitely is holding bitcoin back. because as long as we don't want to spend bitcoin and want to just hold it until the moon no shop will accept bitcoin.

You still need to trust the escrow, that's what the issue is for me, if you need to rely on trust it would be far better to have to trust the seller - buyer beware, the buyer doesn't have to buy.

that is true and 100% my position too, but i also see that people want to hold their coin. but for the sake of the growing of bitcoin i like to suggest to them to buy small things like the morning coffee with bitcoin. that way you just spend around 2 bucks and help bitcoin. but then comes to fee into play. sure it is just cents, but paying 5% more is not appealing. nobody would mind paying more fore the coffee as such, but paying for a fee feels bad. i get that and i do not see a change in the near future.

Well, I have figured out a solution for this on my personal level and I am implementing this since last few months.
Basically, bitcoin’s movement is the key to its growth so there is no option other than spending bitcoins. On the other hand, we know bitcoin has bright future so no one wants to spend his coins. This is kind of irony situation so what we can do is,

1)   Keep Acquiring bitcoins as everyone is doing
2)   Don’t spend fiat, buy bitcoins with that fiat to spend
3)   Spend additional bitcoins bought for expenditure (for necessities such as recharging mobile or DTH, paying for other bills wherever possible).

I have been doing this so by this way I am acquiring some part of bitcoins and spending some part of it.

So... Now change the word BITCOIN for the word GOLD and see what happens... same with others examples ;)

About escrow question... Seriously?

The real magic here is the blockchain, Bitcoin is just a way to show the potential, look where we are after some years, now imagine the future.

there is a lot of things other than these on bitcoin users' minds. like security, where to buy with less fee and where to spend bitcoin.


i think you should read the bitcoin white paper.
any system will always be based on trust and some party will always be at risk. and there will always be ways to exploit any system.
paypal has charge back scam, credit cards has stolen cards, bitcoin has double spend.
now risks of each of these are different. a double spend risk can easily be assesses by looking at the blockchain, checking the fees, etc while if order to assess the two other risks the merchants has to take an unbelievable amount of personal information from their users which is a privacy hazard to customers.


it is not at all tedious. it is the same as buying anything else.
there are a lot of good services like coinbase, circle and even localbitcoins and exchanges which you can buy through a wide variety of methods like bank transfer, credit cards, paypal, webmoney, whateverTheHellonTheInternetMoney....

buying gold is the same way if not harder and you will have to buy a considerable amount whereas you can buy small amount of bitcoin.


bitcoin is growing over time but these things you said are not things keeping bitcoin back.

Yes a newbie comes here and start blaming us.We have been using bitcoin for years and most of us are using it since its inception.First op must spend some time here and learn things

You are right,but i don`t think that escrow is such a problem.

Buying bitcoins is really a pain in the a** and this is what stops bitcoin growth.

Scammers are everywhere.Most of the scammers are not bitcoin related.They steal fiat money.

I can buy Bitcoin easier than I can buy Gold, yes I have to use an exchange but they take a credit card and I can do it very quickly. Yes I get ripped off $36 per $1000 by the exchange plus unavoidably ripped off that it costs me 1.36 times more to convert my New Zealand dollars.
So what, what will it matter in two years time.
If I buy gold and want to purchase something with it, such as $2000 crypto miners, I cant do it, cant even buy an ice cream with it and nor will I ever be likely to, but maybe I can with Bitcoin in the not too distant future.
Yes I used Bitcoin converted to Dash and purchased some crypto miners, they got the funds, then they sent them. Some $16000 worth at least.
Sometimes you just have to trust with some level of prior research to justify up your intended actions. Can't have your bread buttered on both sides, if you want the advantages of what Bitcoin brings, there is an expectation that you have to do the leg work of providing your own protection, or do you want to "mummy credit card company" to protect you forever more?
Bitcoin is hard, until you find avenues to make it easier, most are not, yet !
Here is your chance to make it easier, set up an online coin buying service using CC or buy some Bitcoin ATMs and spread them around.

i use bitcoins for a while right now too, though i dont use a lot of it now, it is more as an investment now

The ridiculous amount of scams don't make any difference.  Tons of scams happen everyday, all day, with fiat. 

The problem I see with bitcoin (gee, this has never been a topic here before, so why the deja vu?) is that there's NO FUCKING REASON to spend it.  You can use fiat so much more easily, and with greater protection, than bitcoin.  I get paid in US dollars, right?  Well, why would I buy another currency just to spend it ON THINGS THAT ARE PRICED IN USD?

I apologize for my caps rage, but that's the big elephant who just took a shit in the room.  Everyone sees the elephant and can smell the shit, but no one wants to be the one to mention it.  Bitcoin is superfluous.  I do think it's a good investment as long as everyone agrees that it has value, but as a currency it sucks the big one.

as for pricing goods in bitcoin
much like the chinese pricing goods in dollars for Apple to buy microchips in dollars and sell to customers in dollars and pay staff in dollars so that america doesnt rely on the chinese yuan(even if the goods are initially priced in yuan behind the scenes).
much like the middle east pricing oil in dollars for fuel companies to buy in dollars and sell to customers in dollars and pay staff in dollars so that america doesnt rely on the Saudi riyal(even if the oil is initially priced in riyal behind the scenes).

it takes time for suppliers to price goods in bitcoin and merchants to buy goods from suppliers in bitcoin to sell to customers for bitcoin and pay staff in bitcoin to bring bitcoin into a circular mass adoption usage that no longer relies on fiat. so that more people can happily live only spending bitcoin and earning bitcoin as a real lifestyle choice (some people are but only a few, it will grow slowly)

its better to think of it this way: does the euro seem pointless and useless because a Yank only see's a chicago pizza priced in dollars.

lets first talk about fiat
on a good day, you can rely on banks to hold your funds with the blanket of protection that if proven that someone other then you takes funds without authorisation. The bank will just magic more money into existence to compensate you.. which happens to a person once every 5 years on average.

but every day, banks magic money into existence in many ways(mainly loans). meaning that a $10 you have now, would have bought you 30 loaves of bread 15 years ago, but will only buy you 5 loaves of bread this year. in 30+ years(whenever you retire) may only buy you 1 loaf of bread.
this is not due to some hacker directly stealing from your account.

on a bad day the banks could take some of your money without your acceptance. first they start with fee's then they start with negative interest.
ensuring your left with a bigger loss to buy even less loaves of bread when you retire.

on a very bad day they can go bankrupt and only give you pennies on the dollar (their 'protection' has cut off limits)
look at the Zimbabwe dollar, look at greece.. how many loaves of bread can you buy now with a set amount of Zimbabwe dollars that you could 20 years ago, how many loaves of bread can you get in greece now that you could have just 5 years ago

in short saving fiat for retirement will never give you back more then you have put in.(if you use the breadloaf value measure) even if they gave you $20 for every $10 you put in, it still will equal less loaves of bread when you retire


with the events of 2007-2008(banks go bankrupt, banks negative interest, bank debt, retirement investments evaporating) which woke some people up to the 'bad day' side of fiat.

its NOT about putting ALL your funds into bitcoin today.
yes we are still in the early stages and its silly to tell people to drop FIAT to go 100% gold, or 100% offshore or 100% bitcoin. but just dont go 100% fiat, because fiat buys you less loaves of bread as time goes on. bitcoin is only used by 0.3% of the world occasionally, and even less as a full time living-lifestyle choice. meaning bitcoin is not useless to spend direct.. but still in the early days of mass adoption

its about in realistic terms allowing anyone, even the unbanked to have an offshore place to hold value that is not storing $10 as $10 but as its own value to hedge against fiat value, much like the rich hand over fiat to off shore trusts measured in assets, but without the headaches of 2-5 days to cash out the funds from the 'institutional trusts' they set up.

its about having a safer place to store rainy day funds to save up for later knowing you can spend them without as much of a headache of dealing with institutional trusts. its about thinking of the future when you know people wont be able to rely on banks as much. its about having a contingency and not putting all your eggs into one basket(greece suffered by relying on euro banks as the only egg basket, and now they are hurt).

right now bitcoin is the middle ground between having an independent 'trust' of value, with the digital platform to spend it on goods direct.. without having to directly cash out, taking 2-5 days to then buy goods. which is the problem institutional trusts have.
right now bitcoin is the middle ground between having an asset of deflationary value, with the digital platform to spend it.. without having to find a specialist to barter to cash out, taking time and labour to then buy goods. which is the problem physical assets(gold/antiques) have.

now with all that said. here is my point.

the code of bitcoin will not grow legs, walk into your local town and ask your local retailer to accept it.
without HUMANS getting off their ass and doing something to ask retailers in their town to accept bitcoin, users will just be waiting forever for some unicorn magic to speed up mass adoption so they can have a full bitcoin lifestyle, as oppose to an occasional use.

much like if FIAT collapsed, suddenly people get off their ass and start asking retailers to barter. rather then hoping a bar of gold grows legs and does it for them

bitcoin is better then gold exchanging properties(not lugging it around)
bitcoin is better then "institutional trusts" exchanging properties(not requiring institutions to manage)

but it does require people to interact.
bitcoins code is great. but people seem to want to sit on their hands and think the code will make real world changes to speed things along without the real world getting involved

so if you want mass adoption to speed up so that you can see products in YOUR home town to be priced in bitcoin. YOU have to do something

In your whole post I cannot see how it is the Bitcoin users' fault and how they are holding it back. Escrow is a necessity to avoid getting scammed because there is a lack of effective infrastructure to make payments online with Bitcoin to go more smoothly without payee or the payer being scammed. The lack of infrastructure is not the users' fault. The same with buying Bitcoins, the infrastructure available is already good but it is still lacking.

If you also mean that it is the users' fault that Bitcoin is being held back because they are hoarding it, you are barking on the wrong tree. Look at the Bitcoin rich list and blame them. The ordinary users usually do not own more than $5000 worth of Bitcoins.

if the problem is simply escrow
the answer is that as a human. a human needs to set up an escrow service. a human needs to code an escrow service. a human needs to vet other humans.
bitcoin is just code. its the human need for humans to do things when interacting with humans that is the problem

humans=users

bitcoin is not an A.I, it cannot program its own escrow. it cannot have eyes or feet to deliver goods on users behalf to ensure its received.

I don't agree with a lot you are talking about. The examples you are giving is also not only about bitcoin users, but mainly about bitcoin service providers and legislators.

Escrow is not a new thing for bitcoin only.. It is actually used a lot all over the world for many high value transactions (such as buying a house) and actually is a necessity to protect both the buyer and the seller. On this forums it does require more trust than for fiat services where a bank may handle the escrow, but common sense alone does not always protects you.

As far as buying bitcoins, I can use my debit card to instantly buy bitcoins here in The Netherlands. It is not tedious at all, it is very easy and conveniant.

The statement is more general but since you singled out the argument to only about escrow then let us focus on it. Escrow services = infrastructure. That is what I was trying to say. For Bitcoin to go smoothly from one hand to another without any problems of scamming from the payee and the payer, we need effective infrastructure to be made. Also yes I am aware that Bitcoin is not an AI and it cannot program its own escrow, but remember Bitcoin was also coded by a human, set up by a human and as you said humans need to vet other humans. So building more code on top of the Bitcoin protocol to make it run more effectively is needed. Isn't it the whole idea?

yep and as the title says bitcoin users are what is holding Bitcoin back, because it needs users to build the infrastructure

This logic does not make any sense, how is the seller affected by having an escrow option made available to the buyer? I don't see how the buyer could possibly 'dictate' the terms of the trade, the seller can simply refuse to sell if he doesn't want escrow.  Your reasoning is very one-sided and seem to only cater for the seller's need to make money. You don't want to trust the buyer but you want the buyer to trust you. You may be an honest person but there is no way for people to know that for certain.

The people that will directly benefit from promoting Bitcoin to retailers and service providers are the holders of Bitcoin - more users the price rises.

The very decentralised nature of Bitcoin means that people have to go out of their own way to promote Bitcoin off their own back seeing no return - this is not a good use of time.

I, for example, am in sales, I work for companies all over the world on a freelance basis - I would love to promote Bitcoin in a sales role calling around retailers getting them to accept Bitcoin but whose going to pay me to do this? I can't do it for free - if I had enough Bitcoin to bank on the price doubling then OK but I have less than 5 BTC currently so the price would need to multiply hugely just to cover a year of living expenses.

There is no central pot to pay people to provide services to further Bitcoin - going back to my original post Bitcoin users are holding Bitcoin back - I'm referring to the big users, they need to invest in furthering Bitcoin because there is no one else to do this.

I think my point about escrow has been taken out of context.

bitcoin is a currency.. not a business
dollar is a currency.. not a business

dollar doesnt have a pot for you to promote dollar.. people need to create businesses and offer services to earn their dollar

core are doing fine. they set up a business(blockstream) and have contracts to help code altcoins for private companies (insurance and banks) and allowing them time to code bitcoin on the side.

i digressed, so lets highlight the 2 businesses you mentioned.. escrows and payment gateways.

you dont need bitcoin to start these businesses.
because for payment gateways, retailers GIVE you the bitcoin, you sell 99% of it to give fiat to the retailer, you keep 1%
because for escrow services, buyers GIVE you the bitcoin, you hold it and later give 99% of it to the seller, you keep 1%

no one is asking anyone to get on a plane and spend wild amounts of cash to get a retailer to use bitcoin. but if you want your local shop
to accept bitcoin then next time you shop at your local shop (no extra cost) introduce them to bitcoin.
its like any job. you never get pre-paid.
you do some work and get paid at the end of the week or month..
dont do the work, dont get paid you get sacked.

if you want to get paid in bitcoin you need to do the work.
many people have been successful setting up their own payment gateways and escrow services..
its just NOT automatically handed to them on a plate, prefunded. all wrapped up in coded heaven

Perhaps you didn't get my point - you don't need to promote the dollar for people to use it as they already do. Bitcoin needs promotion, however people need paying to promote it whether they are payed in Bitcoin or any other currency. The only people that will benefit from Bitcoin being more widely accepted (financially) are the big (and to a lesser extent small) Bitcoin holders. As with any business the ones that stand to make the most have to risk the most.

I don't think it can be said that all bitcoin users are holding it back, without bitcoin users there would be no bitcoin.
There are just a bunch of bad folk as there is in any group that give it a bad name.

You can purchase bitcoin with a credit in numerous places, Coinbase, Circle, etc.

and the big holders are doing it.
coinbase, bitpay.. have 300,000+ merchants
localbitcoin.. does millions of "escrows" a year

it is not because bitcoin itself paid them first.
it is not because bitcoin grew arms and made the businesses.

is because PEOPLE started businesses
so join them.. risk the most by talking to people and start a business (cost is negligible even for the unemployed) then work in the hopes of getting paid. rather then get paid in the hopes of getting work

you are just as much part of bitcoin as anyone else. it does not matter what your bitcoin balance is. you can start a business with no bitcoin, you can start a business with no fiat.
you just need to not wait for other people to do it for you

This goes for any business of course but that's not the point. The point is if I and lots of other people started businesses with the aims of promoting Bitcoin and getting more users and were successful I would only benefit by making a profit - I don't need Bitcoin to do this and I don't have enough Bitcoin to benefit from a big price rise. The main benefactors of this would be the big holders of Bitcoin if the prise rose, therefore the only way Bitcoin can gain traction quickly is if these users and these users alone used their Bitcoin to pay others to provide services for the advancement of Bitcoin.

I have to say I'm amazed at how you seem to be completely unaware of the self-centeredness of your logic. The sense of entitlement in your comments is blatant and yet your tone is one of righteousness rather than self-righteousness  :)
No doctrine, no matter how entrenched, can survive the test of time unchanged, you constantly have to make amendments to reflect new understanding.
Bitcoin adds to the system, its benefits are system-wide. A few will profit the most but that's just how the human world works.

That's human nature to look out for what's best for yourself. There are a few who don't think like this but not enough to make a difference. Bitcoin could be made to succeed if the people with the ability to used their resources to offer better alternatives to bring people on board offering better salaries in Bitcoin then they could otherwise make. This in turn will benefit them instead of holding, less can be worth more.

I have no sense of entitlement whatsoever but of course I will do whats best for me.

If I had to choose my current salary doing exactly what I am doing now or the exact equivalent in Bitcoin, leading to Bitcoins growth I would choose Bitcoin. But if the choice was now or now minus 5% I would not choose the Bitcoin route even though I preferred it out of principal.

I'm trying to get the point across that this is how most people think and how most people provide their best results and the only way to turn this from selfishness in to a benefit for Bitcoin is to take advantage of this mindset, only relatively few have the Bitcoin resource to do this. You could say 'buy some Bitcoin and go ahead' but again that is not the point.

all im hearing from you is benefits of a FIAT price rise.
im guessing you are not thinking of the benefits of how many loaves of bread you can buy... and only thinking of the fiat you can grab. and not realising fiat wont buy you as much bread

in short.. if you can get your local store to accept bitcoin. you wont care about the fiat price because you just hand over bitcoin to the merchant.
eg now buy 3 loaves of bread for 0.01btc and in the future get more loaves of bread for your 0.01btc without even caring what the fiat valuation is. without needing to find a way to cash out to then buy bread with fiat.
you benefit by not having to care about negative fiat interest rate.
you benefit by not having to care about banker booms and busts.
you benefit by not having to care about banks losing your retirement.

but if all you care about is the fiat price so one day you can cash out and hold onto fiat.. then your missing the point of bitcoin totally

Right now the price of Bitcoin to fiat is all that matters, for most people on a tight budget they will do what's best for now. People need a better alternative to move to Bitcoin immediately, where they will see the benefits straight away not in 5 or 10 years.

Using bitcoin as a store of value is fair enough but it would flourish as a currency and grow significantly more.

and if you want your local store to accept bitcoin.. dont wait for the magic fairy tales of rich dudes on horses to come riding into your town.
go to your local independant store and talk to them about bitcoin, costs nothing to talk

Haha but that's not going to directly benefit me though is it? Of course I speak to the odd shop every now and then but that's not going to offer the big shift we need.

Yes I can see that. But do not forget that not all the users are capable of building the infrastructure. Most of the users of Bitcoin are ordinary people who just want to use because it is interesting and useful to them or they think it is a good investment vehicle so they speculate in it. So it would be unfair to say that the users are holding it back. Remember without the users interested in it, it will not go forward in the first place.