Bitcoin Forum

I've been trying to get this sorted out peacefully, and was waiting for almost 48 hours to get my BTC back but I was simply ignored by the owner and that is why I am writing everything here.

So what happened?

In short I've sent a bet to secondstrade.com (http://secondstrade.com) that was over the max and they haven't returned it, although in their rules (secondstrade.com/notice.html (http://secondstrade.com/notice.html)) it is clearly stated that "Bet Amount above the maximum amount will be refunded after six confirmation."

Detailed information:

First of all I'd like to give my betting history and here it is:
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=f6ec64d4758584a47fa4783c821e4f5f420d752d2ee15ae4d169b2b4884eb620 (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=f6ec64d4758584a47fa4783c821e4f5f420d752d2ee15ae4d169b2b4884eb620) 0.01BTC x 1.98 = 0.0198
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=865f4b4c24a8fc1c00a7e9a14c060924e0625b576512c248922494672f7e84e7 (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=865f4b4c24a8fc1c00a7e9a14c060924e0625b576512c248922494672f7e84e7) 0.05BTC x 4.08 = 0.204
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=6b9af29f73148a4ab421687e601fbaaa840ecd3b5cb8bdfc4136f5a14e1bb3d4 (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=6b9af29f73148a4ab421687e601fbaaa840ecd3b5cb8bdfc4136f5a14e1bb3d4) 0.05BTC x 1.98 = 0.099
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=ff463849acb65484a1bb76987dda62a8a22710d4137d09cac3b02f5b0f798d6d (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=ff463849acb65484a1bb76987dda62a8a22710d4137d09cac3b02f5b0f798d6d) 0.05BTC loss
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=f916dc4ee07e520ea3ea5eff9f60436a2677ccf20e380fa5f6a3b722ef52bdfd (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=f916dc4ee07e520ea3ea5eff9f60436a2677ccf20e380fa5f6a3b722ef52bdfd) 0.14BTC x 1.98 = 0.2772
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=a63074bc6cf45cd4f1dce789b5894dd7ff2dce7d2007e73a5642843a15487285 (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=a63074bc6cf45cd4f1dce789b5894dd7ff2dce7d2007e73a5642843a15487285) 0.1BTC x 1.98 = 0.198
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=2b3242b0cd324c9621e433838c5cfae7efc0d5bc2f06c08a24bc15bcd101093e (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=2b3242b0cd324c9621e433838c5cfae7efc0d5bc2f06c08a24bc15bcd101093e) 0.019896BTC loss
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=903ee25575b2fa769bed432ee9046da4899a458088a44339c19b61d85a1c258f (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=903ee25575b2fa769bed432ee9046da4899a458088a44339c19b61d85a1c258f) 0.3BTC x 1.98 = 0.594
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=14f7ed5fe15c9c72182dc30f20c0796cb60b480ab89df4e1f0fa5cd011c89a6a (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=14f7ed5fe15c9c72182dc30f20c0796cb60b480ab89df4e1f0fa5cd011c89a6a) 0.05BTC loss
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=dee84551a49e1ebb8b9911f176ab265a6e2b7ef8db521e5a660a6f7b407201f8 (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=dee84551a49e1ebb8b9911f176ab265a6e2b7ef8db521e5a660a6f7b407201f8) 0.1BTC x 4.08 = 0.408
http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=399d595b0edf0999aea19aed64033a0e93e3c88e6ee56ed9f86776dd28e1cf53 (http://secondstrade.com/tx.jsp?tx=399d595b0edf0999aea19aed64033a0e93e3c88e6ee56ed9f86776dd28e1cf53) 0.05BTC loss
In case the owner tries do delete these pages I have them saved at web.archive.org (http://web.archive.org)

So as you can see I started with 0.100796BTC in my address blockchain.info/address/1PKd8B1BGWJW19NSeHY6KGKkhCsFGtkAvH (http://blockchain.info/address/1PKd8B1BGWJW19NSeHY6KGKkhCsFGtkAvH) and ended up with 0.9733BTC then I've tried to go all in and sent 0.9733BTC in transaction blockchain.info/tx/a3dc9561b456eeef9e3b96cedb7c86c80c0be493e0efd5a66dc59494442264c1 (http://blockchain.info/tx/a3dc9561b456eeef9e3b96cedb7c86c80c0be493e0efd5a66dc59494442264c1) to address blockchain.info/address/1NqCDioR4G6TeoxcVxx5wpghQ7UmESD4uz (http://blockchain.info/address/1NqCDioR4G6TeoxcVxx5wpghQ7UmESD4uz) that is for x1.98 bets only then did I realized that max bet is 0.5BTC.
So the owner was supposed to refund me that transaction but he hasn't done it in almost 48 hours.


Scammers Profile Link:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=381676 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=381676)

Scammers site:
http://secondstrade.com/

Amount Scammed: 0.9733BTC
Payment Method: Bitcoins
Proof of Payment:
https://blockchain.info/tx/a3dc9561b456eeef9e3b96cedb7c86c80c0be493e0efd5a66dc59494442264c1

Hi tautvilis, I have read your post of complaints in the principal topic about secondstrade...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=813554.msg16492895#msg16492895

Because every time they issue a repayment, without any problem, so probably also in this time you have only to wait another reply by secondstrade owner ... and that's it. Also seems really clear that your bet need to be refunded, so I don't think they want scam you.

me too i got scammed for more than 0.5 btc and no refund till now the funny part their home thread if full of scam accusations and the owner have no fucking red trust
So i understand that- this forum simply full of bastards and thiefs and motherfuckers  and the fairness pretenders .... >:( >:(

Maybe he was busy then. Anyway I will send a Pm to the accused to give him some light about this thread. BTW may I know for which game in secondstrade you send the  btc.

Post this in their OP, his op is not self moderated one, so feel free to post negative against them, if they want to continue the business, he will pay you. And don't forget leave this site after you have the money

tautvilis did.


And secondstrade posted this:


But it's unclear who they are referring to.

I am not the only person who is not refunded by the owner:
Can someone from default trust add him some negative feedback. Maybe a red trust rating will speed the things up.

Wow the scam accusations keep popping up for secondstrade. I saw that they were having some technical difficulties but this is getting ridiculous. Keep us in the loop OP.

tautvilis, i'm too not refunded by the owner.

Tx ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/1add566e74d516dbde41718f048c6f1e0870f180945393171366b8dfd68f3c83 - 0.8 BTC

It seems like Secondstrade.com wants to keep our money because they lost 9 BTC at their shitty tx dice game...

On secondstrade.com notice, it say if amount is over limit, the tx is refunded automatically after 6 confirmations. That's not true.

SECONDSTRADE.COM still GOT NO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKING SINGLE RED TRUST INTERSTING!!  >:(

One more day, do you guys get the money back? Update the status, I usually see many complaint in their OP, he runs a so big paid campaign with lowest rate, IMO he is a greedy casino owner. I wish you win win win, and let him broke.

Guys,

I think that a separate thread should be created, where everybody should post their "story". I already notified secondstrade (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1641673.msg16524353#msg16524353) about another scam accusation, but please understand that its difficult to follow everything. I will do my best to assist you.

I started new scam thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1644520.msg16540424#msg16540424

I have messaged these members from default trust:
"BayAreaCoins", "markj113", "dooglus", "suchmoon", "cryptodevil", "shorena", "Blazed", "Tomatocage", "OldScammerTag", "Raize", "OgNasty",  "SaltySpitoon",  "BadBear",  "theymos",  "Vod",  "RHavar",  "tysat",  "dogie",  "jackjack",  "Dabs",  "DannyHamilton",  "xetsr",  "Mitchell",  "hilariousandco",  "TheButterZone"
I can only send a message to up to 10 people at once so I only sent a message to people that I am familiar with.

Waiting to see a reply from the owners on this. I think it is a little fast to drop a negative until they respond, though. Sometimes people get a little busy and refunds can be delayed.

I've now been waiting 5 days for the refund, although it is clearly stated in their rules that ""Bet Amount above the maximum amount will be refunded after six confirmation."

I negged them even before tautvilis PMed - clearly secondstrade is aware of the issue, it's been several days, their own terms state "after 6 confirmations", they have refunded some users recently but not the OP and a few others.

I can always revise or remove the feedback but their actions are highly suspect at this time so the site should be avoided until they refund or provide a valid reason not to.

I'm in the same case of tautvilis.
Blazed, the owner is ignoring our messages... you can see on the official thread.
I sent some pm and never had response.

He will never refund us, so people need to be warned to avoid future scams from him.
The main reason seems because the owner of secondstrade made a new game called "txdice" who was shitty coded and resulted a lost of 9 BTC... So he needs to scam to recover money. >:(


For information, 0.8 + 0.9733 + 0.5 => 2.2733 BTC scammed in 5 days. (only for 3 people).

Upon checking the address, it seems the bet was refunded, is that correct? It's not.
While being slow with it, they issued a few refunds earlier today (checking their thread, there were quite a number of open refunds to catch up on).

They should adjust that part of their rules, I think it means bets are refunded after at least six confirmations.
Seeing as they are doing refunds now, they are probably doing them manually (?) or at least semi-manually.

---

You're rigth, where's my glasses?
Secondstrades has been carrying out refunds this morning, seems OP was not among them, though.

I don't think so:

https://blockchain.info/address/1PKd8B1BGWJW19NSeHY6KGKkhCsFGtkAvH

That's the OP's address. last TX is October 7 to 1NqC, which is secondstrade address. No refund as far as I can see.

Scam? But users are still promoting the sig?

It is possible cause 400 people are in his campaign, he scams much money and pays penny to the campaigners. Easy money

That is good!! :)

You should get your refund. I'll PM secondstrade.

ndnh, can u do the same with me please ? i'm in the same case: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1644520.msg16540424#msg16540424

Here is a response I sent to one of secondstrade's PMs where they claimed that they may reconsider and refund "tautvilis". I think it's worth to post this publicly and to encourage them to respond here:

Is it time to dump the sig yet?  I'd hate to say bye to the campaign, but I'm not promoting scams either.  And right now I'm not sure what's what.

The txdice relied purely on transaction hash. Secondstrade was not aware that the transaction id could be known before broadcasting it such that the player can just broadcast the winning ones.
The win rate was very high and made a loss of 9BTC to secondstrade in a very short period. All the others except 3 were refunded. Secondstrade suspected these 3 to be the ones who exploited this vulnerability.

They closed TXdice right after they realized this.

Thanks. It sounds like they don't really have a good way to figure out who cheated. They should at least publish all bets and specify how they decided to pay or not pay the ones they processed manually.

And I still don't see how they could possibly suspect "tautvilis" if his/her last best was a losing one (not sure how to verify that though).

Secondstrade was refund the amount to OP, you can lock this thread now since it's already resolved.

Refference link : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=813554.msg16558525#msg16558525

Refunded or not, a scammer is a scammer. The -ve trusts should remain on secondstrade.com, i.e. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=381676, to protect gamblers in future.

My bet was finally (after a week of waiting) refunded. Thank you to everyone who had replied in this topic, PM'ed secondstrade, or added him negative feedback.
I have removed my negative feedback and I will be messaging Vod and suchmoon that I no longer have any complaints about secondstrade.
Today I got this PM from secondstrade:
Their reasoning behind my delay of refund is pretty logical considering they were the ones who suffered a loss.
Though regarding sp3edm case, yes it is strange that this happened exactly at this time and his first (and only) transaction was over a limit. But that is no way near enough for anyone to consider it as a valid proof.
My advice is that you should probably refund sp3edm his 0.8BTC or else I doubt you will get out of red trust rating, and I doubt you will get any new players.
As of rabiow12 I have already given my analysis so if I were to bet whether he did or didn't abuse it I would bet on, that he did abuse it.
rabiow12 has already lied after he was asked if he's at profit, and is still lying that it was all his Bitcoins left, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lied about not abusing the game too.
If you don't want to refund rabiow12 you will have to talk it through with Vod and suchmoon and explain it with all the proofs on your thread too.

AFTER and only after tautvilis got his refund he is now telling everyone  that im the scammer , huh ... got no words to say.

POST A PROOF i have 0 balance in my gambling address and even if i have money that doesn't prove that i was cheating.

Anyways What a bitch!

Can OP sign an address with over 5BTC? There is something wrong if you can't.




Yep. Some were using different address every time, and it some may have added losing bets to make this less obvious. All the cases other than the two (this one cleared) I have checked were refunded.

IMO OP was blacklisted because:
1. he started with 0.1 and ended with 0.9733
2. all the large bets won
3. bets were becoming larger and larger.
4. see below post.






Anyway can you provide us with all the transactions you have with secondstrade txdice?

So let me see if I understand this correctly. Secondstrade is implying that someone deliberately deposited amounts above max to top up their hot wallet, so the depositor (or an accomplice) could scam it via TX dice, AND get the deposits refunded. Quite clever if true but also quite risky.

And incredibly stupid for secondstrade to commingle funds like that. Deposits over max should never have been part of the hot wallet, those are "borrowed" funds essentially.

Not sure what to think of sp3edm now.

Yeah you are right. but I don't see how this is risky. The funds transferred from a seemingly "legit" address to a scammer through the hot wallet. Unless secondstrade admin is online and blacklists this legit address there is no chance of losing anything. This person also may have thought that the refund part is actually automatic.



That would not be practical. Since the deposit address remains the same, they would need a separate hot wallet. This would need to have a high balance which is not safe at all.

Edited.

Right, if the refund was automatic, that may have made sense. Even with that there is a risk that this could have stopped at any time, and it did.


If secondstrade doesn't have any sanity checks and blindly submits the outgoing TXs until the wallet runs dry - they're going to have more issues like this. They should subtract "IOU" amounts and check available balance before sending a payout out of the hot wallet, and/or sweep the over-max deposits to a separate wallet for manual processing.

Locking the thread since my case was resolved.