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Title: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 19, 2016, 08:00:27 AM Well this is just peachy! https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/irs-targeting-bitcoin-transaction-records-coinbase-users/ (https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/irs-targeting-bitcoin-transaction-records-coinbase-users/) Not a problem to me though. I've mined all my bitcoin/litecoin/etc since 2013 and have nice CPA and IRS Tax Forms as a business to show such. Then again if they do apply capital gains like land for EVERY transaction of BTC and or other crypto you were supposed to keep track of....I too am 'verily' screwed. (ie you bought 1 btc at beginning of the year and paid for something at the end of this year and now have to pay IRS capital gains of 20% on that 50 bucks you made) :( Well, then I too am screwed, if the fishing expedition in the above link pops that far.....ease of compliance has never been a good excuse for IRS noncompliance don't ya know. Please take the poll on your odds on how likely even some of the above may be. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: MadGamer on November 19, 2016, 08:06:49 AM I don't think we can say that this is wasn't excepted . We should except this from other services in the upcoming years too as Bitcoin is becoming known all over the world.
That's why I personally don't use centralized exchanges or at least those who asks for ID verification. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: calkob on November 19, 2016, 08:16:43 AM I think that more than likely they will eventually have to comply ? thats why i think it best for companies to install methods that makes it impossible for even them to access personal info, this is probably impossible in this case, but then in my opinion it is a flawed model, roll on the decentralised exchanges, bitsquare is a good step in the right direction
Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 19, 2016, 08:17:21 AM I don't think we can say that this is wasn't excepted . We should except this from other services in the upcoming years too as Bitcoin is becoming known all over the world. That's why I personally don't use centralized exchanges or at least those who asks for ID verification. What is unexpected is that the IRS even after the US Marshall's sales of BTC in bulk. Still will not change their own rules and still expect folk to pay 20% capital gains on every bit of BTC a person ever spent. Thus the BTC you got in 2013 for 250 if you spent on something this year for 750 you owe the IRS 100 bucks (20%) on the 500 buck gain. This gonna be quite the mess in that so far the IRS has refused to modify their stance on this, according to the Internal Gov't audit that set this all off and recommended changes that the IRS do more. Thus seems the IRS is just gonna double down and go with the 2013 rules. Fun times. Again I can show how I got mining most BTC/LTC mining and I've held most of my BTC. But if you have traded for your BTC or piddled it away in small amounts without going through coinbase ..this could be at the least very very annoying. How one could explain to the IRS that www.shapeshift.io (http://www.shapeshift.io) is a normal way to change funds and/or zcash mining is would be a 'real' hoot IRS agent: you are mining an untraceable coin (zcash) why would you do that if you have honest intentions? You: It makes good money on my GPU rigs that I've reported thus to IRS. IRS agent: but you admit that there is no way to trace it once you decide to spend it. J'accuse! Sheesh...what a mess because the IRS is 'set' on making lazy rules. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: AgentofCoin on November 19, 2016, 08:19:50 AM Yes, currently under the IRS's Advisory Opinion from 2014(?) a bitcoin is considered to be
property only for taxation purposes. So basically in the US, using bitcoin is like buying and sell things with your stocks. It is pretty stupid, but is assigned as such so the IRS can tax it. I think they can force Coinbase to open and provide past data on user's transactions to ensure there is compliance with their opinion. So I assume Coinbase will lose in their defense. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: panju1 on November 19, 2016, 08:25:03 AM I think they can force Coinbase to open and provide past data on user's transactions to ensure there is compliance with their opinion. So I assume Coinbase will lose in their defense. At least Coinbase is trying to fight the government. Large companies like Apple and Microsoft have locked horns with the government over issues of user privacy. Such actions by the government is precisely the reason why users flock to unregulated exchanges. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 19, 2016, 08:27:56 AM Yes, currently under the IRS's Advisory Opinion from 2014(?) a bitcoin is considered to be property only for taxation purposes. So basically in the US, using bitcoin is like buying and sell things with your stocks. It is pretty stupid, but is assigned as such so the IRS can tax it. I think they can force Coinbase to open and provide past data on user's transactions to ensure there is compliance with their opinion. So I assume Coinbase will lose in their defense. Yeah my point is ...maybe I blew like 8k thru coinbase....most of it mining and most of it went to BTC or mining equipment or stuff I can justify The catch is EACH individual bitcoin transaction that I moved for cash thru anything shapeshift/coinbase/folk on bitcointalk for the above equipment Will have to have its capital gains figured for EACH transaction. Me mostly holding and just using this for mining related stuff I'm not in too much hurt. But .that still is probably 80 to 100 transactions that need to be traced. What do you use to determine worth? coinbase prices/ other exchanges prices that can range 30 bucks both ways. How do you prove to the IRS you spent the stuff accordingly on bitcointalk, they ask, where is your receipt? IRS only accepts receipts so even if you are legit still screwed and I have not traded thru coinbase btc for cash etc like some and could probably muck my way through this most folk are just gonna toss up their hands and run for zcash I'd guess and go completely dark. I'm sure not gonna tell my CPA lady this. I'm just gonna muck along an hope if it comes to that my equipment declarations and the fact I've held most of my bitcoin is enough. edit: to clarify the bulk of my stuff has been justified to the IRS but not down to each individual btc transaction nor a receipt from say getting stuff on bitcointalk etc it could be real damper on crypto as a useful tool if they grind it down to every itty bitty transaction down to the penny. Generally I do what they want. But that kinda detail imho would probably really upset the apple cart on crypto. Remember the 1984 guidelines are just that 'guidelines' ie 'best effort' if they change that interpetation to ALL ...it could be a real mess (end of rant ...not sure why I'm up in the air I likely could justify most of my stuff cause I hold but still annoying) Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: AgentofCoin on November 19, 2016, 08:42:00 AM Yes, currently under the IRS's Advisory Opinion from 2014(?) a bitcoin is considered to be property only for taxation purposes. So basically in the US, using bitcoin is like buying and sell things with your stocks. It is pretty stupid, but is assigned as such so the IRS can tax it. I think they can force Coinbase to open and provide past data on user's transactions to ensure there is compliance with their opinion. So I assume Coinbase will lose in their defense. Yeah my point is ...maybe I blew like 8k thru coinbase....most of it mining and most of it went to BTC or mining equipment or stuff I can justify The catch is EACH individual bitcoin transaction that I moved for cash thru anything shapeshift/coinbase/folk on bitcointalk for the above equipment Will have to have its capital gains figured for EACH transaction. Me mostly holding and just using this for mining related stuff I'm not in too much hurt. But .that still is probably 80 to 100 transactions that need to be traced. What do you use to determine worth? coinbase prices/ other exchanges prices that can range 30 bucks both ways. How do you prove to the IRS you spent the stuff accordingly on bitcointalk, they ask, where is your receipt? IRS only accepts receipts so even if you are legit still screwed and I have not traded thru coinbase btc for cash etc like some and could probably muck my way through this most folk are just gonna toss up their hands and run for zcash I'd guess and go completely dark. I'm sure not gonna tell my CPA lady this. I'm just gonna muck along an hope if it comes to that my equipment declarations and the fact I've held most of my bitcoin is enough. edit: to clarify the bulk of my stuff has been justified to the IRS but not down to each individual btc transaction nor a receipt from say getting stuff on bitcointalk etc it could be real damper on crypto as a useful tool if they grind it down to every itty bitty transaction down to the penny. Generally I do what they want. But that kinda detail imho would probably really upset the apple cart on crypto. Remember the 1984 guidelines are just that 'guidelines' ie 'best effort' if they change that interpetation to ALL ...it could be a real mess (end of rant ...not sure why I'm up in the air I likely could justify most of my stuff cause I hold but still annoying) If you paid most of your taxes, I'd assume you will be fine. I think the IRS is looking for people who have paid nothing and are gross offenders. So I wouldn't worry if you owe $100 to $1000 to them, I think they are looking for the people who owe multiple thousands and are purposefully not paying them. I think they are on the hunt for tax dodgers. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: kiklo on November 19, 2016, 10:21:14 AM The subpoena is overly broad and legally should be denied because of it.
http://crimeinthesuites.com/governments-subpoena-power-not-infinite/ https://www.rcfp.org/2nd-cir-privilege-compendium/4-subpoena-not-overbroad-or-unduly-burdensome Quote The Second Circuit has stated that use of a subpoena for a fishing expedition is improper and blanket subpoenas are not permitted. 8) FYI: https://blog.coinbase.com/2016/11/18/protecting-customer-privacy/ Quote 18 Nov 2016 Protecting Customer Privacy Our customers may be aware that the U.S. government filed a civil petition yesterday in federal court seeking disclosure of all Coinbase U.S. customers' records over a three year period. The government has not alleged any wrongdoing on the part of Coinbase and its petition is predicated on sweeping statements that taxpayers may use virtual currency to evade taxes. Although Coinbase's general practice is to cooperate with properly targeted law enforcement inquiries, we are extremely concerned with the indiscriminate breadth of the government's request. Our customers’ privacy rights are important to us and our legal team is in the process of examining the government's petition. In its current form, we will oppose the government’s petition in court. We will continue to keep our customers informed on developments in this matter. FYI2: If they want Coinbase to report all BTC Transactions of US Citizens like a Stock Investing company would. They have to pass a law that requires it, and we would receive a tax statement from coinbase at the end of the year, but it can only be for the next tax year, US Laws can not be retroactive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law Quote In the United States, the Congress is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 3 of Article I, Section 9 of the United States Constitution. The states are prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 1 of Article I, Section 10. This is one of the relatively few restrictions that the United States Constitution made to both the power of the federal and state governments before the Fourteenth Amendment. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: xuan87 on November 19, 2016, 10:49:15 AM Yes, currently under the IRS's Advisory Opinion from 2014(?) a bitcoin is considered to be property only for taxation purposes. So basically in the US, using bitcoin is like buying and sell things with your stocks. It is pretty stupid, but is assigned as such so the IRS can tax it. I think they can force Coinbase to open and provide past data on user's transactions to ensure there is compliance with their opinion. So I assume Coinbase will lose in their defense. Yeah my point is ...maybe I blew like 8k thru coinbase....most of it mining and most of it went to BTC or mining equipment or stuff I can justify The catch is EACH individual bitcoin transaction that I moved for cash thru anything shapeshift/coinbase/folk on bitcointalk for the above equipment Will have to have its capital gains figured for EACH transaction. Me mostly holding and just using this for mining related stuff I'm not in too much hurt. But .that still is probably 80 to 100 transactions that need to be traced. What do you use to determine worth? coinbase prices/ other exchanges prices that can range 30 bucks both ways. How do you prove to the IRS you spent the stuff accordingly on bitcointalk, they ask, where is your receipt? IRS only accepts receipts so even if you are legit still screwed and I have not traded thru coinbase btc for cash etc like some and could probably muck my way through this most folk are just gonna toss up their hands and run for zcash I'd guess and go completely dark. I'm sure not gonna tell my CPA lady this. I'm just gonna muck along an hope if it comes to that my equipment declarations and the fact I've held most of my bitcoin is enough. edit: to clarify the bulk of my stuff has been justified to the IRS but not down to each individual btc transaction nor a receipt from say getting stuff on bitcointalk etc it could be real damper on crypto as a useful tool if they grind it down to every itty bitty transaction down to the penny. Generally I do what they want. But that kinda detail imho would probably really upset the apple cart on crypto. Remember the 1984 guidelines are just that 'guidelines' ie 'best effort' if they change that interpetation to ALL ...it could be a real mess (end of rant ...not sure why I'm up in the air I likely could justify most of my stuff cause I hold but still annoying) If you paid most of your taxes, I'd assume you will be fine. I think the IRS is looking for people who have paid nothing and are gross offenders. So I wouldn't worry if you owe $100 to $1000 to them, I think they are looking for the people who owe multiple thousands and are purposefully not paying them. I think they are on the hunt for tax dodgers. yeah it's true, most of the people is enjoying bitcoin without need to pay any tax so the government is anxious and want to look for extra income from bitcoin, but i still wonder how can they know whose address they are tracking, government is looking for a chance to control bitcoin transaction, in the end government will try to interfere all of our transaction and bitcoin saving Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: QuestionAuthority on November 19, 2016, 03:29:06 PM In one post after another for years I've told people never to use a US based exchange or Bitcoin business. Maybe now people will listen. There's only one option available to citizens of the totalitarian states of america for selling bitcoins - localbitcoins.
Quote Almost everything you own and use for personal or investment purposes is a capital asset. Examples include a home, personal-use items like household furnishings, and stocks or bonds held as investments. When you sell a capital asset, the difference between the adjusted basis in the asset and the amount you realized from the sale is a capital gain or a capital loss. Generally, an asset's basis is its cost to the owner, but if you received the asset as a gift or inheritance, refer to Topic 703 for information about your basis. For information on calculating adjusted basis, refer to Publication 551, Basis of Assets. You have a capital gain if you sell the asset for more than your adjusted basis. You have a capital loss if you sell the asset for less than your adjusted basis. Losses from the sale of personal-use property, such as your home or car, are not tax deductible. If you have a taxable capital gain, you may be required to make estimated tax payments. Refer to Publication 505, Tax Withholding and Estimated Tax for additional information. If your capital losses exceed your capital gains, the amount of the excess loss that you can claim on line 13 of Form 1040 to lower your income is the lesser of $3,000, ($1,500 if you are married filing separately) or your total net loss shown on line 16 of the Form 1040, Schedule D (PDF), Capital Gains and Losses. If your net capital loss is more than this limit, you can carry the loss forward to later years. You may use the Capital Loss Carryover Worksheet found in Publication 550, Investment Income and Expenses, or in the Form 1040, Schedule D Instructions (PDF), to figure the amount you can carry forward. Taxpayers with significant investment income may be subject to the Net Investment Income Tax (NIIT). For additional information on the NIIT, see Topic 559. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: amacar2 on November 19, 2016, 04:32:39 PM I think they can force Coinbase to open and provide past data on user's transactions to ensure So whatever coinbase claim about protecting user privacy will be just some bullshit if they provide all the personal info required by IRS along with related bitcoin transactions. there is compliance with their opinion. So I assume Coinbase will lose in their defense. That's why better to use desktop clients or run own full bitcoin node. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Milkduds on November 19, 2016, 05:43:52 PM This is not a shocker at all,Coinbase has gone out of its way to be in line with government and the next step will most likely be a audit of customers to see who holds what. Site should have been run off in the early days but people had to use it.
Always thought it was funny that people that when the lottery or money on game shows lost close to half the amount in taxes in the States. The warning bells should have been going off for all Americans long before this and this is why people like to stay anonymous. Just drives that issue home once again for those of us that are not wanting to bend over for government regulation. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: MingLee on November 19, 2016, 05:44:41 PM Used to use them, but stopped somewhere close to 6 months ago, and I'm kinda glad about it now. Thought it would be a good intermediary account but I guess there really aren't many good things about their services anymore.
Probably have some of my data caught up in there, but I might get lucky since I never used their exchange services. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: karawantbtc on November 19, 2016, 08:41:12 PM Who didnt see this coming?! The IRS is going to come down hard to make examples of people. Which is going to make a bunch of people angry and then you will see "tax protestors" everywhere. The IRS tax revenues are going to plummet! Give it a couple of years.
Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: RGBKey on November 19, 2016, 09:17:41 PM Honestly you should have seen this coming if you were using Coinbase, they have always been 100% on the side of compliance.
Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 20, 2016, 03:06:05 AM Honestly you should have seen this coming if you were using Coinbase, they have always been 100% on the side of compliance. I guess my point on this was not the compliance, but the 'fishing expedition' in other words they want a blanket of ALL bitcoin users. You are guilty by the fact of using BTC of being not in IRS compliance as an assumption...thus BTC to USD is the trigger for us to look at you in mass. In most normal cases they ask if 'so and so' they could get info. Not everyone who has ever cashed out BTC to USD! (evil we are BTC users....) In other words, the Inspector General's office told the IRS they are not doing enough to regulate BTC and this is their response...ie LAZY we will just ask for ALL info on ALL BTC users that xfer BTC to cash on Coinbase and will assume ALL are guilty unless they can prove otherwise. IRS as usual 'acting out' because of budget cuts and not enough folk. So lets try this. Anyway seems like the attempt anyway IMHO. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: RGBKey on November 20, 2016, 03:24:11 AM Honestly you should have seen this coming if you were using Coinbase, they have always been 100% on the side of compliance. -snip-Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: almightyruler on November 20, 2016, 03:34:57 AM In one post after another for years I've told people never to use a US based exchange or Bitcoin business. They're not all bad. The guy at Cryptsy was nice enough to shred (destroy) the customer database before he fled to China. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 20, 2016, 03:53:33 AM Honestly you should have seen this coming if you were using Coinbase, they have always been 100% on the side of compliance. -snip-Not that I know of ..but the IRS guidelines are specifically written as such https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance (https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance) ie you trade btc at 1 btc in a speculation manner and you double your speculation to say 2 BTC if not held for 1 year and 1 day 40% capital gains or 20% if held more then 1 year like Land. ie you make btc from mining you pay 25% tax as income...ie the IRS does not like you making money out of thin air..thus want their cut as income you hold BTC and do zip with it ...and it goes up you pay nothing..... you make 10 BTC mining and hold it and price is 450 and you sell it for 750 at end of the year you pay 40% capital gains like land on the 300 buck difference you can take off 100% off of your gross income mining in equipment for BTC (ie computers) as a business. stuff like that..all this makes little sense in that, the Marshall's office ignored IRS guidelines when they did the massive BTC sales off silkroad etc Sold it as bulk But anyway comes down to this if you trade/speculate btc and use coinbase you are royally screwed If you mine BTC or mine LTC and convert to BTC ...all crypto is treated the same you sell it the day you get it for $$$ no capital gains if you hold it for 1 month say and it gains 10% in value before you say use it to pay your mining electric you pay the capital gains of 40% on that increase because less then 1 year 1 day. all this stuff is a pain for piddle factor...thus why the General Accounting Office got on IRS that its guidelines make no sense here recently....which likely set off the coinbase action thus IRS response is gonna try to enforce the above anyway...in most cases, folk are gonna ignore it as too much a pain in the ass to treat every BTC transaction in this manner ....are you really gonna keep track of ever micro transaction of btc for coffee in that manner? On the other hand, the IRS likely is gonna be really really picky on you mining crypto ....so that I've always kept track of... But to sum up The IRS IS asking Coinbase for the database of ALL BTC users on coinbase who have EVER xfered BTC to Cash....NOT just whales..NOT just miners...every damn transaction......then when they get that info they are gonna randomly fish out info after the fact. So the assumption is if you are the IRS and see folk using BTC on coinbase they are guilty of likely IRS fraud....just for using BTC as a rationale for this blanket attempt So imho IRS is p/o'd about the General Accounting Office saying they have no clear method of watching crypto ..so they dusted off the 2014 IRS guidelines 'impractical' thou the General Accounting Office said (unworkable) anyway just so show they are doing something from the GAO blast on realistic regulation of crypto. Whatever I hold mostly..and probably can kill a day messing with my BTC to eguip transactions enough for a flow chart of where my BTC went and the puny capital gains and maybe losses in such xfers from my mining to equipment or electric...ie it is managable in my case because I mostly hold BTC. pain in the butt it may be but nothing like a guy who speculates on BTC ......every transaction ever made you are supposed to keep track of or the user who really does use btc for coffee in a day to day transaction.... my only issue is if the IRS said they needed receipts from the stuff I got off bitcointalk in equipment..that would be a loss.....IRS would not understand sending BTC to someone with an alias and getting equipment that way w/o a paper reciept...that would never fly...they would simply look confused such a notion would even exist. So if that ever happens would just have to eat the BTC action to the IRS on that Whatever.......know folk in Solar Equip that get audited often (again making $$$ out of the air) same with BTC or LTC mining....the IRS is not big on that kinda thing .thus extra likely pain in the butt enforcement is gonna dump on more then just coinbase.... Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Leonard2016 on November 20, 2016, 04:09:14 AM so far coinbase has been fighting it to the death because if they don't it is going to be the end of them.
nobody is going to use coinbase if they report to IRS. coinbase is a bad service as it is, if it gets any worse it is going to be bye bye Coinbase forever. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: QuestionAuthority on November 20, 2016, 04:19:08 AM so far coinbase has been fighting it to the death because if they don't it is going to be the end of them. nobody is going to use coinbase if they report to IRS. coinbase is a bad service as it is, if it gets any worse it is going to be bye bye Coinbase forever. All their business might not evaporate. I have to believe there are at least a few law abiding citizens using Bitcoin. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: kiklo on November 20, 2016, 04:54:10 AM IRS Tax compliance will Kill BTC in the US , if it is not changed asap.
No regular person , wants to deal with doing capital gains tax , it is a pain in the ass. This means people will not use it as a currency in the US, it will be too much of a bother, limiting it to people that like trading stocks. Can we say Nail in the Coffin. :P 8) Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: bryant.coleman on November 20, 2016, 05:00:01 AM In one post after another for years I've told people never to use a US based exchange or Bitcoin business. They're not all bad. The guy at Cryptsy was nice enough to shred (destroy) the customer database before he fled to China. There are exchanges out there such as BTC-e, which allows anonymous trading. They are one of the oldest and most reputable exchanges out there and I have been using them for the last 4 years. Not even once they asked for any ID proof. Just my email address is with them, and I am sure that the IRS will not be able to find out my real identity from that information. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: almightyruler on November 20, 2016, 05:34:45 AM In one post after another for years I've told people never to use a US based exchange or Bitcoin business. They're not all bad. The guy at Cryptsy was nice enough to shred (destroy) the customer database before he fled to China. There are exchanges out there such as BTC-e, which allows anonymous trading. They are one of the oldest and most reputable exchanges out there and I have been using them for the last 4 years. Not even once they asked for any ID proof. Just my email address is with them, and I am sure that the IRS will not be able to find out my real identity from that information. Heh, I hope you realise I was being incredibly sarcastic. Cryptsy was operating whilst insolvent for more than a year, and ultimately their users have lost millions of dollars worth of funds. As a final "F You", someone with admin access (possibly Paul Vernon?) deliberately destroyed the database so that all user records were lost. That's what my joke referred to. ;) Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: pooya87 on November 20, 2016, 06:16:17 AM ~~ Not that I know of ..but the IRS guidelines are specifically written as such https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance (https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance) ie you trade btc at 1 btc in a speculation manner and you double your speculation to say 2 BTC if not held for 1 year and 1 day 40% capital gains or 20% if held more then 1 year like Land. ie you make btc from mining you pay 25% tax as income...ie the IRS does not like you making money out of thin air..thus want their cut as income ~~ there is something that i don't understand here. aren't US citizens already paying taxes whatever percent when they are trading other things like say Stocks or trading in Forex market? so why paying taxes for trading bitcoin is an issue? Tax Rate When trading stocks (held less than one year), investors are taxed at the 35% short-term rate. When trading futures or options, investors are taxed at a 23% rate (calculated as 60% long-term times 15% max rate plus 40% short-term rate times 35% max rate). Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 20, 2016, 08:05:38 AM ~~ Not that I know of ..but the IRS guidelines are specifically written as such https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance (https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance) ie you trade btc at 1 btc in a speculation manner and you double your speculation to say 2 BTC if not held for 1 year and 1 day 40% capital gains or 20% if held more then 1 year like Land. ie you make btc from mining you pay 25% tax as income...ie the IRS does not like you making money out of thin air..thus want their cut as income ~~ there is something that i don't understand here. aren't US citizens already paying taxes whatever percent when they are trading other things like say Stocks or trading in Forex market? so why paying taxes for trading bitcoin is an issue? Tax Rate When trading stocks (held less than one year), investors are taxed at the 35% short-term rate. When trading futures or options, investors are taxed at a 23% rate (calculated as 60% long-term times 15% max rate plus 40% short-term rate times 35% max rate). Because BTC is treated like Land or Property ...you can't speculate on land in the USA. IF you buy land and make a bunch on capital gains and you sell it within a year and 1 day you pay 40% capital gains. If you sell after the 1 year and a day. (Prove you are not just 'speculating' on a pump on land) you pay 20% on your capital gains. Hard for BTC to be a currency..if you use a BTC bought in 2009 for 12c and sell it to buy a TV for $750 bucks in 2016. You are required under current IRS guidelines to pay on $749.88 as profit ..ie Captial gains on that amount of 20%. Yeah, the General Accounting Office got on the IRS for not making regulations that made sense after the CPA association of the USA asked for changes/clarifications. This started this whole get the IRS to make some new rules etc on how to take care of taxation on crypto currencies...jeez did it backfire imho. CPA Association Reguest http://www.coindesk.com/aicpa-irs-bitcoin-tax-guidance/ (http://www.coindesk.com/aicpa-irs-bitcoin-tax-guidance/) ie current rules don't make sense too confusing. Then the General Accounting Office (GAO) got into the act https://www.atr.org/gao-irs-tax-bitcoins-a7696 (https://www.atr.org/gao-irs-tax-bitcoins-a7696) Then/now the IRS feeling pressure seems to be doubling down and just sticking with the 2014 IRS Guidelines everyone is confused about and thus imho the coinbase pushback for files http://www.coindesk.com/irs-seeking-data-coinbases-bitcoin-customers/ (http://www.coindesk.com/irs-seeking-data-coinbases-bitcoin-customers/) See simple from the IRS point of view...obviously, all BTC and Crypto users are hiding money etc ..this is only reason to use crypto ..thus send us all the records from coinbase. https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance (https://www.irs.gov/uac/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance) (It also will have the added value of driving the CPA association that brought this up and the GAO even more nuts....nah nah nah nah goes the IRS ...ie lump it) :) So IF crytpo is ONLY used as a 'store of value' this makes some kind of weird sense...treat it like Land...but if it is a currency and a 2009 Bitcoin is treated like land and differently, than say a 2016 bitcoin you've just bought...gonna be damn hard to spend it and make it an option for consumers.....if all BTC treated as different stand alone units of value. thus the point by the CPA association and the GAO offices...this just don't make sense and it just don't plain work in reality...and the IRS reply so far is "lump it". heh.....fun times.....makes me want to build a bunker when the war between bureaucrats and the trump administration starts...oh goodie...more gridlock here an everywhere then imho 2014 IRS Guidelines on Bitcoin and other Crypto Currencies. That is the problem. IRS will not re-do this and according to GAO sat on their hands and IRS is pushing back and doubling down imho with a fat/lazy asking for all Coinbase user info as a result. Sheesh Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Shiroslullaby on November 20, 2016, 11:49:44 PM Hey man, the IRS has to generate tax revenue from somewhere.
And since they sure as hell aren't going to get it from corporations hiding their profits offshore, I guess they are going to come after users of Bitcoin now... Since they can only tax the amount they can PROVE you profited on, does this mean they can only act on the amount they can prove you bought and then sold through Coinbase? (Since they wouldn't be able to prove that you sold coins once you moved them out of your Coinbase account.) How deep is the IRS going on this? Are they tracing addresses that coins were sent to from Coinbase accounts? Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: The Sceptical Chymist on November 21, 2016, 12:30:47 AM IRS Tax compliance will Kill BTC in the US , if it is not changed asap. Well it figures those dumbasses would classify it as an asset and not a currency. Which it pretty much is anyway, but they're still dumbasses. They want part of every cent you will ever earn or spend. In any case, if they fine me they fine me. Not a lot of my money went through Coinbase. And I'm sure Circle and all the other ones are next, too.No regular person , wants to deal with doing capital gains tax , it is a pain in the ass. This means people will not use it as a currency in the US, it will be too much of a bother, limiting it to people that like trading stocks. Can we say Nail in the Coffin. :P 8) Come on, it was just a matter of time and we all know that. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 21, 2016, 12:51:13 AM Hey man, the IRS has to generate tax revenue from somewhere. And since they sure as hell aren't going to get it from corporations hiding their profits offshore, I guess they are going to come after users of Bitcoin now... Since they can only tax the amount they can PROVE you profited on, does this mean they can only act on the amount they can prove you bought and then sold through Coinbase? (Since they wouldn't be able to prove that you sold coins once you moved them out of your Coinbase account.) How deep is the IRS going on this? Are they tracing addresses that coins were sent to from Coinbase accounts? up to the taxpayer to prove anything....so the problem is not with the 25% tax on crypto mining....I mean the IRS does not like $$$ coming out of thin air....(or out of the dirt...like gold mining) But every BTC is treated like its own piece of land...down to whatever amount like 0.0001....so if you got BTC at 0.1 cent and it is now 750 bucks you have to track the INDIVIDUAL BTC back and pay capital gains on it! THAT is why the USA CPA association asked the IRS to clarify and that is what the GAO report said the IRS had not made any real world plans on how to track this stuff correctly...and of course the IRS just flipped them off and started the coinbase fishing expedition for all the users there with BTC. So it is kinda dumb...especially with the Marshall's sale and others by the US Gov't which did not follow the 'tainted coins' as they were supposed to and other stuff truthfully the IRS is understaffed and has bigger fish to fry...thus they kinda are just winging it or trying to....so imho the 'poke' of wtf by the above agencies got this response on coinbase whatever ...they can make us wear bunny suits I suppose on tax day if they wanted to...not much we can do about it Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 21, 2016, 05:54:03 AM Heh....gotta love the IRS ....assumption is if you buy BTC on coinbase you are likely trying to do tax fraud it seems. http://fortune.com/2016/11/20/irs-bitcoin-tax-evasion-case/ (http://fortune.com/2016/11/20/irs-bitcoin-tax-evasion-case/) coinbase likely to fight this tooth and nail http://www.reuters.com/article/bitcoin-irs-coinbase-idUSL1N1DL0MW (http://www.reuters.com/article/bitcoin-irs-coinbase-idUSL1N1DL0MW) fun times...so imho the IRS figures if you are using BTC instead of good old fiat $$$ you must be up to something. Send us the database of all so we can 'get em' :) Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: OmegaStarScream on November 21, 2016, 06:39:36 AM As an update , It seems like Coinbase refused to give information's to the government and they are taking this case to court from what I read : https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinbase-will-take-irs-to-court-over-consumer-privacy-attack
Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Pursuer on November 21, 2016, 08:05:24 AM As an update , It seems like Coinbase refused to give information's to the government and they are taking this case to court from what I read : https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinbase-will-take-irs-to-court-over-consumer-privacy-attack this was bound to happen sooner or later. whenever there is some large amounts of money moving around in US the IRS starts sniffing around to find a way of earning money from people who are doing all those money transfers. and I don't think Coinbase is going to be that successful in court besides, I am sure they are working with other agencies that shall not be named :D like how they caught the KAT owner Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: pedrog on November 21, 2016, 09:35:42 AM No worries, President The Donald will abolish such taxes and you all will be fine.
Are they asking for all records or US citizens and residents records? Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 21, 2016, 10:25:44 AM No worries, President The Donald will abolish such taxes and you all will be fine. Are they asking for all records or US citizens and residents records? Everybody from what I gather. All USA Citizens on Coinbase. (BTC being evil and all) :) Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: QuestionAuthority on November 21, 2016, 02:26:49 PM http://panampost.com/wp-content/uploads/american-surveillance.jpg
https://ironboltbruce.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/fascism_corporate_fascist_america.jpg Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: Searing on November 22, 2016, 12:08:01 AM https://www.google.com/amp/www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2016/11/21/irs-wants-court-authority-to-identify-bitcoin-users-transactions-at-coinbase/?client=safari (https://www.google.com/amp/www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2016/11/21/irs-wants-court-authority-to-identify-bitcoin-users-transactions-at-coinbase/?client=safari)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mercury.postlight.com/amp%3Furl%3Dhttps://fee.org/articles/the-irs-just-declared-war-on-bitcoin-privacy/?client=safari (https://www.google.com/amp/s/mercury.postlight.com/amp%3Furl%3Dhttps://fee.org/articles/the-irs-just-declared-war-on-bitcoin-privacy/?client=safari) Imho coinbase will likely lose in that this is no more then the IRS would expect to get from a bank for info. I assume the IRS will also play the 'terrorist' and BTC is evil card, in order to solidify the idea that coinbase is a bank and must comply. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: QuestionAuthority on November 22, 2016, 01:53:53 PM Avoid U.S. businesses at all costs. If you're from the U.S., then realize what your government is doing to you, realize you are not free, and realize change.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqqMRGWWgAEcOUV.jpg Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: OmegaStarScream on December 01, 2016, 01:37:47 PM As expected from some users in this thread , Coinbase officially lost the case. This covers all Coinbase users from 2013 to 2015.
http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-judge-approved-irs-coinbase-users/ https://www.cointelegraph.com/news/us-federal-court-approves-irs-collection-of-coinbase-user-database If there is something that someone should learn from this , then It's that we shouldn't trust centralized exchange that asks for real information's for long term. Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: QuestionAuthority on December 01, 2016, 02:06:09 PM As expected from some users in this thread , Coinbase officially lost the case. This covers all Coinbase users from 2013 to 2015. http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-judge-approved-irs-coinbase-users/ https://www.cointelegraph.com/news/us-federal-court-approves-irs-collection-of-coinbase-user-database If there is something that someone should learn from this , then It's that we shouldn't trust centralized exchange that asks for real information's for long term. Funny that a country formed by a revolution about overtaxation is now overtaxing its citizens on all sides of every transaction. Justin Timberlake should make a song about it. http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/95966-What-Goes-Around-Comes-Back-Around.jpg Title: Re: Coinbase asked to provide info from 2013-2015 to IRS. So far they are hedging. Post by: AgentofCoin on December 01, 2016, 03:48:13 PM As expected from some users in this thread , Coinbase officially lost the case. This covers all Coinbase users from 2013 to 2015. There is still the appeal process. Coinbase has a chance to overturn that Order if they can properly argue that the original request was too broad and that the Judge didn't limit the data to specific individuals. This is an IRS action, so the law is weirder here and certain things that normally are not allowed, are allowed. It is likely the IRS will argue that this fishing expedition is needed as an action of it's own enforceability. If there is something that someone should learn from this , then It's that we shouldn't trust centralized exchange that asks for real information's for long term. All systems of centralization and Bitcoin/bitcoin do not work. We either will have the one and not the other or vice versa. |
