Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Exchanges => Topic started by: Quickseller on January 27, 2017, 04:39:31 PM



Title: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Quickseller on January 27, 2017, 04:39:31 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5qghnm/hacked_bitfinex_are_on_the_move_full_list_of/

https://gist.github.com/MrChrisJ/4a959a51a0d2be356cc2e89566fc1d87

Someone claiming to work for Bitfinex has published a list of transactions that moved some of the stolen Bitfinex coins.

As of block 450293 872.89153671BTC has moved, and according to the OP of the above reddit thread they have been sent to various exchanges (possibly to see how they will react to receiving deposits of these stolen coins).

If the coins do end up getting returned, then this will be a turning point for Bitcoin as in major BTC related thefts/losses in the past, stolen property has pretty much been lost forever for victims.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: eternalgloom on January 27, 2017, 07:54:11 PM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: e-coinomist on January 27, 2017, 08:07:27 PM
As of block 450293 872.89153671BTC has moved, and according to the OP of the above reddit thread they have been sent to various exchanges (possibly to see how they will react to receiving deposits of these stolen coins).

Seems to be a fraction of the whole booties. I would announce doubts about the exchanges reacting in a way that is satisfying for the thieves, which will just drain that flow again. Evading further observations. This time they just got caught, next times not.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Quickseller on January 27, 2017, 08:15:09 PM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 
If I were to bet on it, I would say they will be recovered. The exact addresses of where the coins are "sitting" are very well known, and are well publicized. I would doubt that any exchange would hesitate to freeze the account of anyone who receives any of the stolen coins. If a mixer were to receive any of the stolen coins, they would probably not "mix" the stolen coins because their customers would be unable to use those coins on an exchange. So, the hacker's only likely choice would be to deal with bitfinex to try to negotiate the return of some of the stolen coins.

I am not aware of any large thefts/hacks in which the thieves ended up getting caught, although I think this is different because of the above.

As of block 450293 872.89153671BTC has moved, and according to the OP of the above reddit thread they have been sent to various exchanges (possibly to see how they will react to receiving deposits of these stolen coins).

Seems to be a fraction of the whole booties. I would announce doubts about the exchanges reacting in a way that is satisfying for the thieves, which will just drain that flow again. Evading further observations. This time they just got caught, next times not.
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: eternalgloom on January 27, 2017, 08:41:56 PM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 
If I were to bet on it, I would say they will be recovered. The exact addresses of where the coins are "sitting" are very well known, and are well publicized. I would doubt that any exchange would hesitate to freeze the account of anyone who receives any of the stolen coins. If a mixer were to receive any of the stolen coins, they would probably not "mix" the stolen coins because their customers would be unable to use those coins on an exchange. So, the hacker's only likely choice would be to deal with bitfinex to try to negotiate the return of some of the stolen coins.

I am not aware of any large thefts/hacks in which the thieves ended up getting caught, although I think this is different because of the above.

As of block 450293 872.89153671BTC has moved, and according to the OP of the above reddit thread they have been sent to various exchanges (possibly to see how they will react to receiving deposits of these stolen coins).

Seems to be a fraction of the whole booties. I would announce doubts about the exchanges reacting in a way that is satisfying for the thieves, which will just drain that flow again. Evading further observations. This time they just got caught, next times not.
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.
I don't think that most mixers would have the morality to not mix these coins because their customers would not be able to use them.
About that, would they really not be able to use them? I would assume that blockchain analysis is something that takes time.

Enough time for someone (someone getting those mixed coins) to use those tainted coins before anyone noticing perhaps?

This topic from 2014 talk about previous Bitcoin thieves being caught and there are some that were, if you read the entire thread.
Though not many high profile cases.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500212.0


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: LeGaulois on January 27, 2017, 08:46:50 PM
It would be very funny if he/they convert to fiat and make a bank transfer :O who know... it's clear he is not 100% sure with how to move all this.
We are seeing a thief in real time. Kraken has frozen a deposit already and I am sure some others will follow the same path, I heard there is a good communication between some exchanges... If they all do this, it can ve a great message for the bitcoin comunity and outside bitcoin


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: unamis76 on January 27, 2017, 08:59:41 PM
Tried seeing earlier to what exchanges have the coins been sent but destination addresses are either publicly unknown or I simply didn't stumble upon a known address (didn't verify them all), very curious as to what exchanges received these coins.

I also believe that any exchange receiving these coins will most likely not allow them to be moved or exchanged further, not only for justice's sake, but also because exchanges reputations might be on the line with these coins. That's something pretty much no exchange wants to mess with.

Not sure what the hacker wants. He knows many eyes are on these coins, that they're easily recognizable by anyone, even with low experience browsing through the blockchain and that they'll raise an alarm wherever they're spent... These coins and whoever moves them are "trapped". We'll see how this pans out.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Quickseller on January 27, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
I don't think that most mixers would have the morality to not mix these coins because their customers would not be able to use them.
It makes good business sense for mixers to only give their customers coins they will be able to easily use once received. If a mixer starts giving customers coins that are clearly related to a major theft, then no one will want to use the mixing service in the future. Since mixers make money by taking a portion of the bitcoin that gets mixed, the mixer will end up losing money in the long run.

About that, would they really not be able to use them? I would assume that blockchain analysis is something that takes time.
Blockchain analysis is more or less instant (it can be done instantly), as I can link addresses together that signed a single transaction that is still unconfirmed.

A mixer's customer might be able to spend the bitcoin they receive from the mixer, however if they do, they will likely receive a visit from law enforcement if what they are spending their bitcoin on can be traced to their RL identity.



Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: HI-TEC99 on January 27, 2017, 10:26:43 PM
The Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but nobody knows if the other exchanges will all freeze the coins. I bet Coinbase chooses to freeze. I have never heard of Xzzx or quadrigaCX.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitfinexs-hacked-bitcoins-move-5-recovery-bounty-offered/

Quote
Drew Samsen, Applications Team Leader at Bitfinex, told CCN that it appears coins have been moved to LocalBitcoins, Xzzx, BTC-e, Bitcoin.de, Coinbase, Kraken, CoinsBank and quadrigaCX. He further stated that Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but it is not clear whether some of the other exchanges will follow suite.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: eaLiTy on January 27, 2017, 11:59:20 PM
That is a lot of address to monitor and assuming the hacker is a smart individual i am sure he will be playing a cat and mouse game and he will be finding a solution and if he makes a stupid move then some of the coins can be retrieved as i have seen an exchange freezing the account of an hacker recently .Hope the hacker makes a bad move so that some coins can be retrieved .


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: CryptoBjorn on January 28, 2017, 01:24:12 AM
Wow you were fast with it OP! Although it's interesting/ newsworthy to watch, there is no much victims can do though.
The hack happened and bitfinex did profit of it. I am 99% certain of it.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: cpfreeplz on January 28, 2017, 03:44:29 AM
The Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but nobody knows if the other exchanges will all freeze the coins. I bet Coinbase chooses to freeze. I have never heard of Xzzx or quadrigaCX.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitfinexs-hacked-bitcoins-move-5-recovery-bounty-offered/

Quote
Drew Samsen, Applications Team Leader at Bitfinex, told CCN that it appears coins have been moved to LocalBitcoins, Xzzx, BTC-e, Bitcoin.de, Coinbase, Kraken, CoinsBank and quadrigaCX. He further stated that Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but it is not clear whether some of the other exchanges will follow suite.

Quadrigacx is Canadian. They will 100% for sure be freezing the account. That shit won't fly here. Maybe they should be trying some 3rd world exchanges to try and mix those coins. I guess this is the test to see if some exchange lets the bitcoins slip through the cracks and they start realizing their profit on a huge hack.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Xester on January 28, 2017, 04:00:33 AM
Probably those bitcoin cannot be longer retrieved by the owners. There are no central agency that is controlling bitcoins and so there will be no group that will chase the hacker and put them in jail. Thats the problem with decentralization, though its freedom from the slavery of banks but its hard to be free from hackers, scammers that will take away your hard earned coins.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Kemarit on January 28, 2017, 05:09:54 AM
It would be very funny if he/they convert to fiat and make a bank transfer :O who know... it's clear he is not 100% sure with how to move all this.
We are seeing a thief in real time. Kraken has frozen a deposit already and I am sure some others will follow the same path, I heard there is a good communication between some exchanges... If they all do this, it can ve a great message for the bitcoin comunity and outside bitcoin

I don't think he will convert this fiat because he know he will be caught.. The only likely scenario is to a bitcoin mixing services. The question is who's mixing services would accomodate such tainted bitcoins?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: greentea on January 28, 2017, 05:20:00 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 

It will be interesting to follow this out until the end.  These coins will be under a microscope at every move they make.

Are mixers or tumblers really definite at leaving no trace?  Whats the point of a large theft such as this if the coins can never really be spent?

I believe there are a few blockchain forensic companies because of thefts such as these ...


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: e-coinomist on January 28, 2017, 05:43:13 AM
It would be very funny if he/they convert to fiat and make a bank transfer :O who know... it's clear he is not 100% sure with how to move all this.
We are seeing a thief in real time. Kraken has frozen a deposit already and I am sure some others will follow the same path, I heard there is a good communication between some exchanges... If they all do this, it can ve a great message for the bitcoin comunity and outside bitcoin

There is good communication between law enforcement at least inside western culture sphere, that 3rd world exchange mentioned above icks me. I would not support any tradesite that somehow dodges the community for a small gain in trade fees on stolen BTC.
Regarding Real Time Observation vs. Justice is Sloooow well recording the datatrace and collecting evidence takes time. Once those people are dangling on a hook facing some lengthy court time to defend their case we can watch this in slow motion on repeat.

How will this cryptosphere change once Zcash got stolen in big numbers?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Mr.grin on January 28, 2017, 05:44:13 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 

It will be interesting to follow this out until the end.  These coins will be under a microscope at every move they make.

Are mixers or tumblers really definite at leaving no trace?  Whats the point of a large theft such as this if the coins can never really be spent?

I believe there are a few blockchain forensic companies because of thefts such as these ...

it may be very difficult to restore that has been stolen bitcoin. because of the above explanation, bitcoin is stolen, have been deployed in various exchangers, so bitcoin can not be collected again. bitcoin amount that is stolen, too many. all of which may be completed when the washing has been done at several sites bitcoin. Well, this is very interesting.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Quickseller on January 28, 2017, 05:55:56 AM
The Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but nobody knows if the other exchanges will all freeze the coins. I bet Coinbase chooses to freeze. I have never heard of Xzzx or quadrigaCX.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitfinexs-hacked-bitcoins-move-5-recovery-bounty-offered/

Quote
Drew Samsen, Applications Team Leader at Bitfinex, told CCN that it appears coins have been moved to LocalBitcoins, Xzzx, BTC-e, Bitcoin.de, Coinbase, Kraken, CoinsBank and quadrigaCX. He further stated that Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but it is not clear whether some of the other exchanges will follow suite.
I can tell you with almost certainty that btc-e will freeze the stolen coins. They will generally honor these types of requests likely because they do not want to be associated with laundering stolen money. There have been a couple of examples of people getting various accounts hacked, the money ending up on a btc-e account, and the account getting frozen.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: crazyivan on January 28, 2017, 06:17:50 AM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Amph on January 28, 2017, 06:55:19 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 

in the case they will be recovered they will be labelled as a tainted coins, and lose some of their value, talking about fungibily issue in bitcoin here...

especially if these coins are confiscated by the autorithy, maybe if it was the exchange itself it can close an eye on the matter


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: qiwoman2 on January 28, 2017, 07:00:28 AM
It's really scary to know like a third of the coins were stolen but at least BIFINEX is not closing down and will compensate everyone so customers have not lost out. It's funny though that they are offering a bounty even to the hacker lol. He should be rewarded for hacking? I am not so sure, but if he returned the dough that would be something.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: carlfebz2 on January 28, 2017, 07:41:02 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 
I didnt even hear such thing that there are suspects of thefts have been caught even to those scam doublers and hyips its real hard to trace them up how much more on those hackers of bitfinex it think they would do extreme measures for them to be tracked like using mixers or other stuffs that would cover their faces. If bitfinex funds is already moving and passing it to exchanges then its better to give alert to those exchanges that have been used to pass on those stolen funds.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: bettercrypto on January 28, 2017, 07:50:46 AM
Probably those bitcoin cannot be longer retrieved by the owners. There are no central agency that is controlling bitcoins and so there will be no group that will chase the hacker and put them in jail. Thats the problem with decentralization, though its freedom from the slavery of banks but its hard to be free from hackers, scammers that will take away your hard earned coins.

You are missing the point of the discussion here.  It is not whether the original owner can retrieve it or not, the discussion is about exchanges and mixer reaction on the received stolen Bitfinex Coins, if it was recovered then of course it will be returned to the exchange where it was hacked.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: CyberKuro on January 28, 2017, 08:22:44 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 
If I were to bet on it, I would say they will be recovered. The exact addresses of where the coins are "sitting" are very well known, and are well publicized. I would doubt that any exchange would hesitate to freeze the account of anyone who receives any of the stolen coins. If a mixer were to receive any of the stolen coins, they would probably not "mix" the stolen coins because their customers would be unable to use those coins on an exchange. So, the hacker's only likely choice would be to deal with bitfinex to try to negotiate the return of some of the stolen coins.

I am not aware of any large thefts/hacks in which the thieves ended up getting caught, although I think this is different because of the above.

As of block 450293 872.89153671BTC has moved, and according to the OP of the above reddit thread they have been sent to various exchanges (possibly to see how they will react to receiving deposits of these stolen coins).

Seems to be a fraction of the whole booties. I would announce doubts about the exchanges reacting in a way that is satisfying for the thieves, which will just drain that flow again. Evading further observations. This time they just got caught, next times not.
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.
I don't think that most mixers would have the morality to not mix these coins because their customers would not be able to use them.
About that, would they really not be able to use them? I would assume that blockchain analysis is something that takes time.

Enough time for someone (someone getting those mixed coins) to use those tainted coins before anyone noticing perhaps?

This topic from 2014 talk about previous Bitcoin thieves being caught and there are some that were, if you read the entire thread.
Though not many high profile cases.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500212.0
Yes, not all of mixer may have the morality to refuse that kind of transaction. But I bet they don't want to accept to mix those stolen bitcoin as it so famous to deal with. The thieves have been waiting all this time to move the coins, but every move may tracked by authorities. Hopefully those bitcoins could be recovered even bitfinex and thieves should negotiate to give it back, but low chance to be happen.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: 1Referee on January 28, 2017, 09:40:21 AM
It's really scary to know like a third of the coins were stolen but at least BIFINEX is not closing down and will compensate everyone so customers have not lost out.

Compensating people in form of worthless tokens that people can exchange to a certain amount of equity in the main company is not really a worthy compensation if you ask me. People simply want their cold hard coins back. This "comensation" is just set up to keep people their mouths shut for a good while.

It's funny though that they are offering a bounty even to the hacker lol. He should be rewarded for hacking? I am not so sure, but if he returned the dough that would be something.

It's indeed funny, but at the same time quite a desperate call as well. Especially if you consider that there might not have been a hack at all. But in case these coins are really stolen due to a hack, then a bounty could be a last resort option. If you don't try, you won't gain anything. But there is more to it than simply a reward. I am sure that they try to contact the "hacker(s)" in the hope that they make a mistake where they potentially can be traced one way or another. Nothing will be done without a reason. Thieves won't be rewarded just like that. ;)


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: HI-TEC99 on January 28, 2017, 10:46:44 AM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

Bitfinex is offering a 5% reward for each coin anyone can return to it. Any exchange sent stolen coins can claim 5% of them and return the rest to bitfinex. Dong that would pay them more money than they would get if they let the hacker withdraw or trade any coins he deposited to an exchange. All those exchanges will probably opt to claim the 5% reward because of the financial incentive.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Juggy777 on January 28, 2017, 11:11:16 AM
This is interesting with the published address there's a high level certainty that the coins shall be returned by the exchanges though I can't remember when was the last time something like this ever happened. I read there a 5% reward per coin, which raises a suspension in my mind, what if the exchanges are involved in it. The guy who stole it could have a pact with them right, so both would profit as the risk of being caught would reduce, or I am thinking wrong?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: BitHodler on January 28, 2017, 11:22:46 AM
This is interesting with the published address there's a high level certainty that the coins shall be returned by the exchanges though I can't remember when was the last time something like this ever happened. I read there a 5% reward per coin, which raises a suspension in my mind, what if the exchanges are involved in it. The guy who stole it could have a pact with them right, so both would profit as the risk of being caught would reduce, or I am thinking wrong?
If you think logically, then there is no point for the hacker to return whatever number of coins to Bitfinex.

It's clear that if you cause so much damage to an exchange, that you as hacker don't have any moral problems with keeping these coins even though you know that innocent people have been suffering.

If these coins do get returned, which I can't see happening, then it's an ultra foolish hacker. Another possibility is that it was an insider job where the people behind this attack are trying to slowly return a small portion of these coins.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Gromozeka! on January 28, 2017, 11:29:43 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 
Such stories have not heard, but the FBI has repeatedly stated that they have echnology able to calculate the attacker, recently working on a similar program started Interpol, can see what they come out and be like stealing fast track and return the funds to owners.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pinkflower on January 28, 2017, 11:34:43 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 
If I were to bet on it, I would say they will be recovered. The exact addresses of where the coins are "sitting" are very well known, and are well publicized. I would doubt that any exchange would hesitate to freeze the account of anyone who receives any of the stolen coins. If a mixer were to receive any of the stolen coins, they would probably not "mix" the stolen coins because their customers would be unable to use those coins on an exchange. So, the hacker's only likely choice would be to deal with bitfinex to try to negotiate the return of some of the stolen coins.

I am not aware of any large thefts/hacks in which the thieves ended up getting caught, although I think this is different because of the above.

As of block 450293 872.89153671BTC has moved, and according to the OP of the above reddit thread they have been sent to various exchanges (possibly to see how they will react to receiving deposits of these stolen coins).

Seems to be a fraction of the whole booties. I would announce doubts about the exchanges reacting in a way that is satisfying for the thieves, which will just drain that flow again. Evading further observations. This time they just got caught, next times not.
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

Was there ever a scenario that hacked and stolen BTC from exchanges that amounted in the millions were returned? I dont believe Ive ever read something like it in the news. All stolen BTC were forever lost. Its something the whole community have been enduring for a long time.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: jacaf01 on January 28, 2017, 11:47:54 AM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 

They can't be recovered, is just like asking the DAO hacker to refund the stolen tokens or the Shapeshift hack, this is one of the minus in the space, I just hope in future there will be a solution to theft of this huge nature


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: error08 on January 28, 2017, 11:56:45 AM
This is interesting with the published address there's a high level certainty that the coins shall be returned by the exchanges though I can't remember when was the last time something like this ever happened. I read there a 5% reward per coin, which raises a suspension in my mind, what if the exchanges are involved in it. The guy who stole it could have a pact with them right, so both would profit as the risk of being caught would reduce, or I am thinking wrong?
If you think logically, then there is no point for the hacker to return whatever number of coins to Bitfinex.

It's clear that if you cause so much damage to an exchange, that you as hacker don't have any moral problems with keeping these coins even though you know that innocent people have been suffering.

If these coins do get returned, which I can't see happening, then it's an ultra foolish hacker. Another possibility is that it was an insider job where the people behind this attack are trying to slowly return a small portion of these coins.
What might be happen is the hackers will keep it (85%) in my opinion. There are 3 speculation right?
- hackers give it back and rewarded 5% (but others may think, "it's a conspiracy between them, inside job)
- hackers won't give it back and try to mix it or hold for years.
- bitfinex somehow could fine them and make the hackers going intoo the jail.
Let's wait and see what will happen in the future between bitfinex and the hackers.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: squatz1 on January 28, 2017, 02:20:21 PM
I still fully think that Bitfinex are the ones that stole those coins, I really HOPE they aren't but my gut says that this is all them.

I guess they're trying to get their name out a bit right now.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: jaberwock on January 28, 2017, 02:29:22 PM
Maybe they would let the coins in, tag the accounts and try to get the identity of the thieves, seems to be the only way to get them

By the way, why did they waited so long to move the coins somewhere, if was before people discovered what was going on, they could mix and use exchanges to mix some significant part of the coins, and have a good profit


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Factmine on January 28, 2017, 03:06:30 PM
I still fully think that Bitfinex are the ones that stole those coins, I really HOPE they aren't but my gut says that this is all them.

I guess they're trying to get their name out a bit right now.

Maybe they are trying to clean their name a bit for purposes of boosting their trading volumes. I would seriously like to say that they should just avoid the damned platform and move other legit ones that have a clean record. There are plenty of other services to choose from.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Rockie1234 on January 28, 2017, 03:07:06 PM
I doubt these exchanges will freeze the coins. The problem is that they will earn profit on any trades made by the hacker, and it is none of their business; they do not have to enforce the law. The main reason I think they will ignore the coins is because Bitfinex is their competitor. Giving them back their coins would be helping Bitfinex get back up on its feet. The worse Bitfinex does, the better the other exchanges do.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Quickseller on January 28, 2017, 03:14:28 PM

It's clear that if you cause so much damage to an exchange, that you as hacker don't have any moral problems with keeping these coins even though you know that innocent people have been suffering.
What are they going to do with their coins if they keep them? As of now, they are unable to exchange them for fiat, and are unable to use them to buy anything of any meaningful amount.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: e-coinomist on January 28, 2017, 03:53:47 PM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

If someone is capable of freezing them. Traced deposits ending up inside some exchanger, yes for sure that is possible if the community keeps on beeing observant. But Bitcoinmixed BTCs?
Currencies with builtin anonymity will cause additional havoc. The cat is out of the bag, BTCs can be "washed" in several ways today so maybe it does not matter anymore.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Tanic on January 28, 2017, 04:16:44 PM
Well, sooner or later those stolen bitcoins had to be appeared. I just wander how you could find out that were exactly those Bitfinex's bitcoins? They were not marked as I know.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: digaran on January 28, 2017, 04:19:46 PM
There are many exchanges willing to accept and or convert bitcoins to altcoins, they can sell to unsuspected people around the world.
If we really want to trap them then the only possible solution would be for miners to somehow refuse including them in blocks.
But that is unlikely the case of success, therefor once again not bitcoin's problem of safety but rather neglected exchange admins.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 28, 2017, 04:28:14 PM
It's really scary to know like a third of the coins were stolen but at least BIFINEX is not closing down and will compensate everyone so customers have not lost out.

Compensating people in form of worthless tokens that people can exchange to a certain amount of equity in the main company is not really a worthy compensation if you ask me. People simply want their cold hard coins back. This "comensation" is just set up to keep people their mouths shut for a good while

This is not so much about keeping people's mouths shut as giving people (most likely) false hope of getting their coins back eventually, somewhere in the future. Basically, they are trying to keep their client base since without them and their fresh coins they will quickly turn into a Bter-like exchange which leads mostly a ghostly existence now (but at least they didn't socialize the losses caused by the theft, unlike Bitfinex)...

Personally, I don't think this will help Bitfinex in the long term but they can still drag on for some time

It's funny though that they are offering a bounty even to the hacker lol. He should be rewarded for hacking? I am not so sure, but if he returned the dough that would be something.

It's indeed funny, but at the same time quite a desperate call as well. Especially if you consider that there might not have been a hack at all. But in case these coins are really stolen due to a hack, then a bounty could be a last resort option. If you don't try, you won't gain anything. But there is more to it than simply a reward. I am sure that they try to contact the "hacker(s)" in the hope that they make a mistake where they potentially can be traced one way or another. Nothing will be done without a reason. Thieves won't be rewarded just like that. ;)

I wouldn't trust a word coming from Bitfinex officials. Trusting them might harm innocent people not involved in this affair altogether. Though that shouldn't be misconstrued as me endorsing theft or hacks


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Kprawn on January 28, 2017, 04:46:00 PM
The mixer services are currently under scrutiny from most governments and they will possibly work with the authorities to identify

the people behind this hack. If they resist, they will just attract a lot of negative attention and they do not need that now. The

authorities do not need to ask nicely, they can just force them with a Subpoena through the courts. The exchanges is no problem,

because they already work with most governments, if they adhere to AML/KYC regulations.  ::)   


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: sportis on January 28, 2017, 05:34:43 PM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

Bitfinex is offering a 5% reward for each coin anyone can return to it. Any exchange sent stolen coins can claim 5% of them and return the rest to bitfinex. Dong that would pay them more money than they would get if they let the hacker withdraw or trade any coins he deposited to an exchange. All those exchanges will probably opt to claim the 5% reward because of the financial incentive.


There is not only the economic incentives that likely for an exchange are not very large compared to an individual. Think of it however as a collegiality and solidarity. If you were one of the shareholders of another exchange I believe that you would like the same way others to do for you, don't you? In these circumstances there is no the competition issue but anyone accepts or receives stolen goods then is called conspirator or fence and this action is a criminal offence punishable by the law in any country of the world.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 28, 2017, 05:46:10 PM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

Bitfinex is offering a 5% reward for each coin anyone can return to it. Any exchange sent stolen coins can claim 5% of them and return the rest to bitfinex. Dong that would pay them more money than they would get if they let the hacker withdraw or trade any coins he deposited to an exchange. All those exchanges will probably opt to claim the 5% reward because of the financial incentive.


There is not only the economic incentives that likely for an exchange are not very large compared to an individual. Think of it however as a collegiality and solidarity. If you were one of the shareholders of another exchange I believe that you would like the same way others to do for you, don't you? In these circumstances there is no the competition issue but anyone accepts or receives stolen goods then is called conspirator or fence and this action is a criminal offence punishable by the law in any country of the world

How do you know that?

I'm more inclined to think that the laws differ significantly between countries in this respect, especially if you don't know and can't know for sure that these coins have been actually stolen. For example, Bitfinex claims that coins in a certain wallet are actually theirs, but why should anyone consider them as trustful in the first place? What is the difference between some exchange claiming the ownership of certain coins from someone else claiming the same? The owner of that wallet may just say that Bitfinex is spreading deliberate lies about their real ownership


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: digaran on January 28, 2017, 06:00:51 PM
The mixer services are currently under scrutiny from most governments and they will possibly work with the authorities to identify

the people behind this hack. If they resist, they will just attract a lot of negative attention and they do not need that now. The

authorities do not need to ask nicely, they can just force them with a Subpoena through the courts. The exchanges is no problem,

because they already work with most governments, if they adhere to AML/KYC regulations.  ::)   
How do you suggest a mixer like Bitmixer.io to provide any assistant to governments with or without court order when they literally have nothing to give them? or maybe you think they are lying about destroying all the logs after 24 hours?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: instacalm on January 28, 2017, 06:02:40 PM
This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: K~Ehleyr on January 28, 2017, 06:20:25 PM
I wonder why they are trying to offload some coins now... I mean, surely a hacker with that level of expertise would have the patience to wait a few more years until nobody is bothering to track the Bitfinex coins any more.  And by then the coins would be worth much more.  I'm afraid this does smell to me like an inside job with accompanying publicity stunt to recover some coins and restore customer confidence.  If I had those coins I'd still be sitting on them until Moon.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: sportis on January 28, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

Bitfinex is offering a 5% reward for each coin anyone can return to it. Any exchange sent stolen coins can claim 5% of them and return the rest to bitfinex. Dong that would pay them more money than they would get if they let the hacker withdraw or trade any coins he deposited to an exchange. All those exchanges will probably opt to claim the 5% reward because of the financial incentive.


There is not only the economic incentives that likely for an exchange are not very large compared to an individual. Think of it however as a collegiality and solidarity. If you were one of the shareholders of another exchange I believe that you would like the same way others to do for you, don't you? In these circumstances there is no the competition issue but anyone accepts or receives stolen goods then is called conspirator or fence and this action is a criminal offence punishable by the law in any country of the world

How do you know that?

I'm more inclined to think that the laws differ significantly between countries in this respect, especially if you don't know and can't know for sure that these coins have been actually stolen. For example, Bitfinex claims that coins in a certain wallet are actually theirs, but why should anyone consider them as trustful in the first place? What is the difference between some exchange claiming the ownership of certain coins from someone else claiming the same? The owner of that wallet may just say that Bitfinex is spreading deliberate lies about their real ownership


I would answer. Yes, the laws differ from country to country but a thief is always a thief like as anyone accepts stolen goods. Have you any proofs about laws that say the opposite?
The difference between two exchanges are the customers of bitfinex. How many people can claim that hacker stole their coins? Ten, one-hundred more and hacker is only one. That means there is no court that believes him. On the other side some of the customers may have proofs that bought their coins from other exchanges, ATM machines, localbitcoins using sepa or web banking and so on. The owner of that wallet must prove where are these coins come from.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: BitHodler on January 28, 2017, 07:34:18 PM

It's clear that if you cause so much damage to an exchange, that you as hacker don't have any moral problems with keeping these coins even though you know that innocent people have been suffering.
What are they going to do with their coins if they keep them? As of now, they are unable to exchange them for fiat, and are unable to use them to buy anything of any meaningful amount.
They are indeed in a stuck situation when it comes to their coins, but there are a few options that they can consider when it comes to liquidating their coins.

* In a certain way (could be with middlemen) cashing out their coins on the black market where significant discounts are given to attract buyers. It's obviously not without danger of getting busted.

* Slowly mixing their coins where they do it with small amounts at a time to not attract any unwanted attention. Of course not through the well known mixers as they will most likely put these coins on hold.

Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: K~Ehleyr on January 28, 2017, 07:47:59 PM
Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.

But then wouldn't those people have difficulty moving those coins??  It doesn't matter how heavily discounted the coins are if you can't spend them!


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: sportis on January 28, 2017, 08:13:19 PM

It's clear that if you cause so much damage to an exchange, that you as hacker don't have any moral problems with keeping these coins even though you know that innocent people have been suffering.
What are they going to do with their coins if they keep them? As of now, they are unable to exchange them for fiat, and are unable to use them to buy anything of any meaningful amount.
They are indeed in a stuck situation when it comes to their coins, but there are a few options that they can consider when it comes to liquidating their coins.

* In a certain way (could be with middlemen) cashing out their coins on the black market where significant discounts are given to attract buyers. It's obviously not without danger of getting busted.

* Slowly mixing their coins where they do it with small amounts at a time to not attract any unwanted attention. Of course not through the well known mixers as they will most likely put these coins on hold.

Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.


I think so too. I would like to add that if these coins actually end up to the black market maybe the most easy, although slow way, is to convert them face to face, very few every time with cash i.e its an option in localbitcoins as I know, asking lower price than other sellers so as to attract buyers. Therefore, I am wondering how vulnerable is any unsuspecting buyer before the law who will buy with cash a fraction or the most one or two bitcoins?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Cereberus on January 28, 2017, 08:16:19 PM
Well known mixers maybe will not accept to mix such coins, but there are not so well known mixers in the deep web or dark net and the Shield mixer there works well and is not scam yet so I think they will not give a damn about these coins if they are stolen or not.

Let's not forget Hashocean, everyone know they moved away with 5249 BTC, yet nothing happened to them. I don't believe any stolen coin will be ever returned unfortunately. That's why is never recommended to keep your coins in any exchange.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: BitHodler on January 28, 2017, 08:40:27 PM
Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.

But then wouldn't those people have difficulty moving those coins??  It doesn't matter how heavily discounted the coins are if you can't spend them!
Yup, whoever ends up buying these coins while knowing that they are coming from theft will face the same problems as the hackers do right now. But as I said, I am sure there are enough people willing to take that risk.

Another possibility is that these coins end up being sold in small batches to people not aware of the source of these coins. I am sure these hackers aren't shy of putting innocent people into problems for their own benefit.

And if the coins don't get sold at all, then these hackers will have enough time to wait for a decentralized exchange to pop up where they can convert their coins into whatever asset. Options are wide open for them.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: HaXX0R1337 on January 28, 2017, 09:28:07 PM
This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.
This is not the first bitcoin exchange hack and not a single coin has been recovered till now,it is good to see people actively monitoring the wallets containing the coin,since the number of wallets are huge it is really difficult to monitor all of them and top of that the hacker must be a brilliant individual who knows how to handle these coins.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: equator on January 28, 2017, 09:50:40 PM
This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.
This is not the first bitcoin exchange hack and not a single coin has been recovered till now,it is good to see people actively monitoring the wallets containing the coin,since the number of wallets are huge it is really difficult to monitor all of them and top of that the hacker must be a brilliant individual who knows how to handle these coins.

Even by doing all sorts of pretty work of hacking the wallets, but still the hacker is not able to enjoy it, it should be a long term process as now he will also be knowing that all his wallets are open to the world so any transactions to this wallets will lead him to the trouble. So it will take more years to clear it for him.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: shield132 on January 28, 2017, 09:56:30 PM
Well known mixers maybe will not accept to mix such coins, but there are not so well known mixers in the deep web or dark net and the Shield mixer there works well and is not scam yet so I think they will not give a damn about these coins if they are stolen or not.

Let's not forget Hashocean, everyone know they moved away with 5249 BTC, yet nothing happened to them. I don't believe any stolen coin will be ever returned unfortunately. That's why is never recommended to keep your coins in any exchange.
To my mind hashocean is and will be strict lesson for people who believed in it.
Mixers are mixing coins automatically but it seems, if that hacker was so talented to hack bitfinex, than don't you think that hiding of simple sources isn't hard for him? That was well planned attack by very cognizant man in bitcoin and web attacks. To my mind it's impossible to correct that situation on well side.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Velkro on January 28, 2017, 10:12:09 PM
If the coins do end up getting returned, then this will be a turning point for Bitcoin as in major BTC related thefts/losses in the past
Exchanges can refuse client that without a doubt trying to sell stolen funds, but funds won't be returned to owners. How that would happen? There is no magic. Hoever, bitcoin transactions are not reversible and they won't be. If they would be, that would be the end of bitcoin as we know it.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: mrkevio on January 28, 2017, 10:23:59 PM
Hmm, I really thought (and still have a doubt about it) that Bitfinex "hack" was a simple scam to run away with the money. If they'll return the money, it could've still been a scam and they ran away with the money, made more money out of the scam and now they're returning what they stole to their users. Anyways, a lot of people have lost their money there and returning it to them will make them come back to Bitcoin (people lost their trust in BTC too). I still remember that HUGE freefall in BTC's price from $600 to $400 or $350 if I am right. The return of the stolen money would rise the price with hundreds of bucks again!


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 29, 2017, 09:19:00 AM
How do you know that?

I'm more inclined to think that the laws differ significantly between countries in this respect, especially if you don't know and can't know for sure that these coins have been actually stolen. For example, Bitfinex claims that coins in a certain wallet are actually theirs, but why should anyone consider them as trustful in the first place? What is the difference between some exchange claiming the ownership of certain coins from someone else claiming the same? The owner of that wallet may just say that Bitfinex is spreading deliberate lies about their real ownership

I would answer. Yes, the laws differ from country to country but a thief is always a thief like as anyone accepts stolen goods. Have you any proofs about laws that say the opposite?
The difference between two exchanges are the customers of bitfinex. How many people can claim that hacker stole their coins? Ten, one-hundred more and hacker is only one. That means there is no court that believes him. On the other side some of the customers may have proofs that bought their coins from other exchanges, ATM machines, localbitcoins using sepa or web banking and so on. The owner of that wallet must prove where are these coins come from.

Obviously, you don't get my point

I'm not denying that coins of people had been stolen at Bitfinex. But what Bitfinex right now claims is that some wallet allegedly contains the stolen coins and that they started being moved to another wallet. How do you know that the coins in that wallet had been really stolen from Bitfinex apart from Bitfinex claiming that? Did they show any evidence that the offending transactions actually got into that wallet from a Bitfinex wallet due to the theft (hack)? If they can't reveal such evidence, why should we believe them and their claims?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Amadues on January 29, 2017, 09:44:11 AM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

I don't know if this is a good solution. because all coins are created equal, and frozen coin means even censorship.
Actually in such case could be the right solution (why an exchange need to deal with stolen coins?)
But one day the community could argue the same for coins passed form a political activist or even the government could decide to mark a coin.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 29, 2017, 09:56:48 AM
I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

I don't know if this is a good solution. because all coins are created equal, and frozen coin means even censorship.
Actually in such case could be the right solution (why an exchange need to deal with stolen coins?)
But one day the community could argue the same for coins passed form a political activist or even the government could decide to mark a coin

The coins are not frozen by the network itself

They might have been frozen by a third part (like an exchange, mixer, or web wallet) just like any other coins can be frozen or expropriated for a multitude of reasons. I don't think it is the same or amounts to banks freezing transfers of a certain client by a direct order from an authoritative body. In other words, if you have stolen some coins (I'm in no case endorsing that activity), this doesn't prevent you from sending them anywhere as long as you still have the ownership over these coins (read you keep the keys). Whether some miners might choose not to confirm your transactions is another matter


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Superways on January 29, 2017, 10:27:49 AM
I have doubt that they will choose to move them through some smaller and local exchanges as these exchanges are not much expert in that cases.
But before any further disappearance I want that the developer start work to recover tha stolen bitcoin if they will get success in recovering that then no one in the future will ever think to hack bitcoins.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Zadicar on January 29, 2017, 10:49:33 AM
I have doubt that they will choose to move them through some smaller and local exchanges as these exchanges are not much expert in that cases.
But before any further disappearance I want that the developer start work to recover tha stolen bitcoin if they will get success in recovering that then no one in the future will ever think to hack bitcoins.
This mission would not be easy at all since we all know the capability of bitcoin regarding on transfer and we do know that there are mixers out there which would really makes those coin would be hard to be traced even we saw it it starts to move now.If they will use exchanges then they should be aware.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: bones on January 29, 2017, 11:06:24 AM
I would guess it would go something like this.

Stolen coins to decentralised exchange to regulated exchange to fiat.
Maybe utilisising some type / types of untraceable crypto, but the decentralised exchange would wash it anyhow.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: HaXX0R1337 on January 29, 2017, 11:11:13 AM
This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.
This is not the first bitcoin exchange hack and not a single coin has been recovered till now,it is good to see people actively monitoring the wallets containing the coin,since the number of wallets are huge it is really difficult to monitor all of them and top of that the hacker must be a brilliant individual who knows how to handle these coins.

Even by doing all sorts of pretty work of hacking the wallets, but still the hacker is not able to enjoy it, it should be a long term process as now he will also be knowing that all his wallets are open to the world so any transactions to this wallets will lead him to the trouble. So it will take more years to clear it for him.
But it is better than stealing a bank,you are not hurting anyone ;D to enjoy your loot you need to have patience if not you will be caught without any doubt,i really hope these hackers get caught and be dealt with seriously and made an example out of it so that future wanna be hackers would think twice before doing these sort of activities.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 29, 2017, 11:29:53 AM
This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.
This is not the first bitcoin exchange hack and not a single coin has been recovered till now,it is good to see people actively monitoring the wallets containing the coin,since the number of wallets are huge it is really difficult to monitor all of them and top of that the hacker must be a brilliant individual who knows how to handle these coins.

Even by doing all sorts of pretty work of hacking the wallets, but still the hacker is not able to enjoy it, it should be a long term process as now he will also be knowing that all his wallets are open to the world so any transactions to this wallets will lead him to the trouble. So it will take more years to clear it for him.
But it is better than stealing a bank,you are not hurting anyone ;D to enjoy your loot you need to have patience if not you will be caught without any doubt,i really hope these hackers get caught and be dealt with seriously and made an example out of it so that future wanna be hackers would think twice before doing these sort of activities

They will certainly think twice, how to not get caught

Or do you really think that the threat of punishment have stopped somebody from stealing? If it were so, there wouldn't be thieves already. Even the high chances of being caught wouldn't prevent from stealing since it would only make thieves more sophisticated and subtle in their attempt to avoid being caught in the end. I heard a story about a family of pickpockets who organized their "headquarters" right under the gallows where their kind were hanged, and when someone was executed they were emptying the pockets of the mob


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: marcoman22 on January 29, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
Around 120000 BTC have been stolen from bitfinex.It is not yet clear whether the theft was an inside job or whether hackers were able to gain access to the system externally.The attacker has moved at least 153 BTCs with 38 transactions.If the attackers bring it to an exchange, we can expect a huge dump in bitcoin price as they have to sell it as soon as possible.I hope all the other exchanges like kraken will also freeze the bitcoins."For an attacker, the cost-benefit strategy is quite easy: How much is in the pot and how likely is it that I'm getting the pot?"


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: cellard on January 29, 2017, 01:38:58 PM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 

Im afraid not enough analysis will ever be enough if they know what they are doing. All they need to do is run the coins through the Helix tumbler using Tor. Yes it will take a while since it has a limit of coins, so it will be made in small batches and some money will be lost due the fees, but they can end up cutting the trace of the coins. Unfortunately at that point it's clear the coins will never be ever recovered.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: amacar2 on January 29, 2017, 01:46:50 PM
Around 120000 BTC have been stolen from bitfinex.It is not yet clear whether the theft was an inside job or whether hackers were able to gain access to the system externally.The attacker has moved at least 153 BTCs with 38 transactions.
May be he/they are just trying to move coins in small batch so that it will be hard for any exchange platform to blacklist all of the associated bitcoin address. If there will be like 100k and more address which will receive those stolen bitcoin, than it will be almost impossible to find out all of the associated addresses.

I don't think we will see any huge and instant dump, may be they will continuously sell in small batches for years.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: PacePay on January 29, 2017, 01:48:41 PM
I have doubt that they will choose to move them through some smaller and local exchanges as these exchanges are not much expert in that cases.
But before any further disappearance I want that the developer start work to recover tha stolen bitcoin if they will get success in recovering that then no one in the future will ever think to hack bitcoins.
This mission would not be easy at all since we all know the capability of bitcoin regarding on transfer and we do know that there are mixers out there which would really makes those coin would be hard to be traced even we saw it it starts to move now.If they will use exchanges then they should be aware.
Yeah that is right there is some tools which make the anonymity of bitcoin much stricter. I also think that it will be hard for to recover and find those people who have stolen these bitcoin. But I do not think that it will be possible or not but the idea is in my mind that how will it be it if those address are blocked by any way or these addresses is made blacklisted and the exchanges make it blocked for their sites.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 29, 2017, 02:10:05 PM
Around 120000 BTC have been stolen from bitfinex.It is not yet clear whether the theft was an inside job or whether hackers were able to gain access to the system externally.The attacker has moved at least 153 BTCs with 38 transactions.If the attackers bring it to an exchange, we can expect a huge dump in bitcoin price as they have to sell it as soon as possible.I hope all the other exchanges like kraken will also freeze the bitcoins."For an attacker, the cost-benefit strategy is quite easy: How much is in the pot and how likely is it that I'm getting the pot?"

As to me, it still smells very fishy

All the addresses are starting with 3, so they require more than one signature to move the funds. How could the attacker possibly steal all the keys if it was not an inside job (I obviously discard the situation where Bitfinex had all the keys in one place from all 120k bitcoins). On the other hand, the hackers might have already earned millions of dollars by just shorting Bitcoin before the hack. So why would they need to move the coins at all? And why only 153 of them? I remember Bitfinex refused to reveal the addresses which contained the stolen coins, and now they report that the coins are moving. How do we know that these are the same addresses that the coins had been actually stolen from?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: manselr on January 29, 2017, 02:46:51 PM
I seriously wonder if these stolen coins will ever be recovered? I mean, it doesn't seem impossible with companies devoted to blockchain analysis.
Does anyone know of any examples of large Bitcoin thefts where the perpetrators were caught in the end? 

Im afraid not enough analysis will ever be enough if they know what they are doing. All they need to do is run the coins through the Helix tumbler using Tor. Yes it will take a while since it has a limit of coins, so it will be made in small batches and some money will be lost due the fees, but they can end up cutting the trace of the coins. Unfortunately at that point it's clear the coins will never be ever recovered.
I agree, helix is a very powerful tumbler, i think it's the best tumbler in the world nowadays.

And we dont even have confidential transactions soon, and that mimble wimble thing.

Once all the privacy features are in full force, you can kiss goodbye, our stolen coins will never be given back to us ever again.

Im okay with that tho, privacy is indeed priceless.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Rinder on January 29, 2017, 02:59:25 PM
All i hope from those hacker attack, is that he or they cant sell the bitcoins, and once they deposit into exchanges they got funds frozen, and lost, soo exchanges can return the coins to bitfinex, this should happen at well know exchanges that does care bitcoin, but if im righ there are several exchanges that will be happy to get the fees from those big ammount and ignore the origin.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: SvenBomvolen on January 29, 2017, 03:01:51 PM
   A lot of coins has been stolen in that past, its very possible that this coins are in move. Criminals cant sell all the coins at once, they are cleaver so they are dumping this stolen coins from time to time.
   Who knows how many stolen coins are currently in circulation, if any bitcoin is unique and cant be counterfeited can this stolen bitcoins be spotted somehow?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Anarchist on January 29, 2017, 03:28:02 PM
If those bitcoin could be recovered, it will lead to more attraction about bitcoin. People will say: oh finally no so bad lol


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Kprawn on January 29, 2017, 05:27:18 PM
The mixer services are currently under scrutiny from most governments and they will possibly work with the authorities to identify

the people behind this hack. If they resist, they will just attract a lot of negative attention and they do not need that now. The

authorities do not need to ask nicely, they can just force them with a Subpoena through the courts. The exchanges is no problem,

because they already work with most governments, if they adhere to AML/KYC regulations.  ::)   
How do you suggest a mixer like Bitmixer.io to provide any assistant to governments with or without court order when they literally have nothing to give them? or maybe you think they are lying about destroying all the logs after 24 hours?

All data can be retrieved with special forensic tools, if needed. I have recovered data, after it was formatted from a hard drive. So

nothing is impossible, if you really need to recover some sensitive information. I think they say that, but they still keep some data.

Some people think some of these mixer services are actually "honey traps" but I doubt it... that is just conspiracy theories.  :P


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: mtnsaa on January 29, 2017, 05:36:00 PM
Hopefully he won't be able to dump it or even better get caught doing it. I'm not sure how exactly he can do it though since all movements will be pretty clear, except for mixers but for that sum it would be crazy to use them. But that's only the start, the real issue will come if he wants to turn it into fiat, maybe he can do it with money launderers or in the black market. This will open the debate for fungibility really, some addresses and BTC will remain tainted even if we could accept them just the same there could be a time when exchanges or heavily regulated services won't and therefore making them less valuable...


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: KenR on January 29, 2017, 05:38:55 PM
Just saw the Gist File,needless to say Chris has organized it in a very readable way.I wonder what happens if the coins hit a mixer,we would sort of lose the track since mixer addresses process thousands of transactions daily.We can actually track of the primary address and see if it has been used in an exchange before to get further details.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: bohr on January 29, 2017, 06:04:13 PM
If those bitcoin could be recovered, it will lead to more attraction about bitcoin. People will say: oh finally no so bad lol
I think it is the opposite, for what I can tell the bitcoin community seems to want better anonymity, if better anonymity is in fact enabled on bitcoin then you can forget about retrieving stolen coins or to even know the coins were stolen.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: jak3 on January 29, 2017, 06:23:54 PM
as this much humans keeping eyes on those transactions even after so long time seems like thieves are relly getting fucked up this time, they can not even touch those coins becuase that will panic everyone that someone is playing wih those stolen coins. why did someone even steel any thing which he can not even spend


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: richardsNY on January 29, 2017, 06:38:53 PM
as this much humans keeping eyes on those transactions even after so long time seems like thieves are relly getting fucked up this time, they can not even touch those coins becuase that will panic everyone that someone is playing wih those stolen coins. why did someone even steel any thing which he can not even spend

That's the transparency of the blockchain. Nothing can be moved without people not being able to see when and where these coins are moved to. In that matter, it will be a tough job to ever spend or sell these coins. If you look at it from that point, they have gained (stolen) a huge load of wealth, but it's pretty much worthless at the same time. It's easy to say that these coins will get mixed, but they will risk having their coins seized once sending coins to whatever mixer as I am quite sure any service is keeping an eye on the stolen coins.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pbleak on January 29, 2017, 07:05:22 PM
I still fully think that Bitfinex are the ones that stole those coins, I really HOPE they aren't but my gut says that this is all them.

I guess they're trying to get their name out a bit right now.

Yep, this has to be the most obvious inside job in Bitcoin history.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pbleak on January 29, 2017, 07:06:32 PM
Also if they really did want to move the coins the method is relatively easy [and I won't mention here].

It seems they are testing levels of interest for now. Which are relatively low.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: vapourminer on January 29, 2017, 07:29:43 PM
why did someone even steel any thing which he can not even spend

steal it 1st. figure everything else out later.

for that amount of coin, even if they figure they can sell only one percent (and theres only a chance even at that) some people would go for it.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: vapourminer on January 29, 2017, 07:34:13 PM
It seems they are testing levels of interest for now. Which are relatively low.

interest here does seem low at that.

i would of figured this would be bigger news. as it stands this thread just kind of dribbles along.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pbleak on January 29, 2017, 07:46:25 PM
It seems they are testing levels of interest for now. Which are relatively low.

interest here does seem low at that.

i would of figured this would be bigger news. as it stands this thread just kind of dribbles along.

It blows my mind we can have a hack this big and nobody really cares.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: BitHodler on January 29, 2017, 07:58:58 PM
It seems they are testing levels of interest for now. Which are relatively low.

interest here does seem low at that.

i would of figured this would be bigger news. as it stands this thread just kind of dribbles along.

It blows my mind we can have a hack this big and nobody really cares.
It's not that people don't care about what has happened, but it's around 6 months ago that the news about the hack became public.

Another thing is that quite a large group of people simply don't believe that Bitfinex was hacked. They believe it was a well set up insider job where Bitfinex just blames hackers for what they actually did themselves.

I'm also inclined to think that it was an insider job. It's utterly amateurish that hackers or whatever else you want to name them can exploit a vulnerable spot in their exchange and walk out with well over 100K BTC.

That's why I don't believe anything from what Bitfinex is saying. It smells so bad, that I find it very worrying and dangerous that this exchange still seem to enjoy whatever form of popularity. Doesn't make any sense.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Clement Kaliyar on January 29, 2017, 08:00:28 PM
It seems they are testing levels of interest for now. Which are relatively low.

interest here does seem low at that.

i would of figured this would be bigger news. as it stands this thread just kind of dribbles along.

It blows my mind we can have a hack this big and nobody really cares.
It it is that easy to catch the culprit they would have done that already.These hacks cannot be traced that easily and none of the funds that were hacked are not traced till now and so this will be the case in Bitfinex too ,the FBI is investigating the case and i hope they could break open the case ,it all depends upon the hackers skills .


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pbleak on January 29, 2017, 08:03:42 PM
It seems they are testing levels of interest for now. Which are relatively low.

interest here does seem low at that.

i would of figured this would be bigger news. as it stands this thread just kind of dribbles along.

It blows my mind we can have a hack this big and nobody really cares.
It's not that people don't care about what has happened, but it's around 6 months ago that the news about the hack became public.

Another thing is that quite a large group of people simply don't believe that Bitfinex was hacked. They believe it was a well set up insider job where Bitfinex just blames hackers for what they actually did themselves.

I'm also inclined to think that it was an insider job. It's utterly amateurish that hackers or whatever else you want to name them can exploit a vulnerable spot in their exchange and walk out with well over 100K BTC.

That's why I don't believe anything from what Bitfinex is saying. It smells so bad, that I find it very worrying and dangerous that this exchange still seem to enjoy whatever form of popularity. Doesn't make any sense.

Oh I mean in the sense of nobody getting wildly upset about what seems an obvious inside job. I don't trust a word from Bitfinex either (whomever they really are!).


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: vapourminer on January 29, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
It seems they are testing levels of interest for now. Which are relatively low.

interest here does seem low at that.

i would of figured this would be bigger news. as it stands this thread just kind of dribbles along.

It blows my mind we can have a hack this big and nobody really cares.
It it is that easy to catch the culprit they would have done that already.These hacks cannot be traced that easily and none of the funds that were hacked are not traced till now and so this will be the case in Bitfinex too ,the FBI is investigating the case and i hope they could break open the case ,it all depends upon the hackers skills .

im just curious as to what exchanges froze the coins, what ones exchanged them and if so can anyone tell to what, etc.

i mean are all the moved coins still just sitting at the various exchanges with no attempt to move or sell them?




Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: strasboug on January 30, 2017, 03:07:20 AM
There's no way to recover the stolen bitcoins, unless bitcoin do like ethereum, fork from a block before the steal. But doing forks like this is very stupid, that hurts a lot of ETH (and is one of the reason I don't play ETH). Autonomy and decentralize is the basics for bitcoin.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: MFahad on January 30, 2017, 04:20:01 AM
as this much humans keeping eyes on those transactions even after so long time seems like thieves are relly getting fucked up this time, they can not even touch those coins becuase that will panic everyone that someone is playing wih those stolen coins. why did someone even steel any thing which he can not even spend

That's the transparency of the blockchain. Nothing can be moved without people not being able to see when and where these coins are moved to. In that matter, it will be a tough job to ever spend or sell these coins. If you look at it from that point, they have gained (stolen) a huge load of wealth, but it's pretty much worthless at the same time. It's easy to say that these coins will get mixed, but they will risk having their coins seized once sending coins to whatever mixer as I am quite sure any service is keeping an eye on the stolen coins.

I dont think so they will ever be caught. They can make 1000 different wallets and  divide the coins amount those wallets and spend everywhere online and offline. Its almost impossible to track. Using Bitcoin Mixer services can make even more difficult. Transfer to the exchange and convert them to Altcoins. Move altcoin between exchanges and convert to bitcoin again. So many options are avaible to utilize the theft coins without being caught.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 30, 2017, 08:39:14 AM
as this much humans keeping eyes on those transactions even after so long time seems like thieves are relly getting fucked up this time, they can not even touch those coins becuase that will panic everyone that someone is playing wih those stolen coins. why did someone even steel any thing which he can not even spend

That's the transparency of the blockchain. Nothing can be moved without people not being able to see when and where these coins are moved to. In that matter, it will be a tough job to ever spend or sell these coins. If you look at it from that point, they have gained (stolen) a huge load of wealth, but it's pretty much worthless at the same time. It's easy to say that these coins will get mixed, but they will risk having their coins seized once sending coins to whatever mixer as I am quite sure any service is keeping an eye on the stolen coins.

I dont think so they will ever be caught. They can make 1000 different wallets and  divide the coins amount those wallets and spend everywhere online and offline. Its almost impossible to track. Using Bitcoin Mixer services can make even more difficult. Transfer to the exchange and convert them to Altcoins. Move altcoin between exchanges and convert to bitcoin again. So many options are avaible to utilize the theft coins without being caught

The question is not about being caught (or avoid being caught)

It is more about losing the traceability of the stolen coins (if we assume that they were really stolen). It doesn't matter into how many wallets you divide the coins, they can still be traced back to a wallet which the coins had allegedly been moved to by the hackers right after the hack. A simple program can easily do that, thus these coins will always remain tainted and can be frozen by any exchange or mixer that listens to or believes what Bitfinex is saying, i.e. that the coins from a certain wallet are theirs


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Zadicar on January 30, 2017, 10:31:14 AM
If those bitcoin could be recovered, it will lead to more attraction about bitcoin. People will say: oh finally no so bad lol

No way, there is no way to recover those bitcoin. Think about if those people who did stole those bitcoins will have a good samaritan feeling and just voluntarily return it to them. They will be forever lost and it seems those people are doing a sneaky move for their coins now, probably they need to use it for building another exchange and reasons out the same way to hide their crime.
They hack those coins because they want money and they would never tend to give it back to bitfinex.They exert efforts on getting those funds thats why they are making a move now and for sure it would be really be planned in able for them not to be traced.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: nikona on January 30, 2017, 10:34:41 AM
If those bitcoin could be recovered, it will lead to more attraction about bitcoin. People will say: oh finally no so bad lol

No way, there is no way to recover those bitcoin. Think about if those people who did stole those bitcoins will have a good samaritan feeling and just voluntarily return it to them. They will be forever lost and it seems those people are doing a sneaky move for their coins now, probably they need to use it for building another exchange and reasons out the same way to hide their crime.
They hack those coins because they want money and they would never tend to give it back to bitfinex.They exert efforts on getting those funds thats why they are making a move now and for sure it would be really be planned in able for them not to be traced.
There are chances that the coins be traced but its close to impossible to do so. If you have a few suspects any you know their walled addresses then the job could be a little simpler if the hackers fucks up and somehow links the accounts with one another but other than that, It is close to impossible.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 30, 2017, 10:37:36 AM
If those bitcoin could be recovered, it will lead to more attraction about bitcoin. People will say: oh finally no so bad lol

No way, there is no way to recover those bitcoin. Think about if those people who did stole those bitcoins will have a good samaritan feeling and just voluntarily return it to them. They will be forever lost and it seems those people are doing a sneaky move for their coins now, probably they need to use it for building another exchange and reasons out the same way to hide their crime.

Building a genuine exchange (or even a fake one) is too much hassle. I think a better idea would be to create another Bitcoin mixer. They have primitive interface by definition and are secretive by design, and it wouldn't cost the hackers as much. They could even run a lavish and generous signature campaign here, at Bitcointalk (closely watch the Service section announcements). Provided there are any Bitfinex hackers at all, of course. It is rumored that scammy Cointellect had been doing essentially the same...

That is, laundering stolen dogecoins


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: nelson4lov on January 30, 2017, 10:42:14 AM
I still fully think that Bitfinex are the ones that stole those coins, I really HOPE they aren't but my gut says that this is all them.

I guess they're trying to get their name out a bit right now.

Yep, this has to be the most obvious inside job in Bitcoin history.


I'd like to know If Bitfinex user accounts have 2 Factor Auth. Because If That's the case, It'll be an inside man kinda hack. as Far as I know 2 Fact Authentication can't be breached except there's an inside man who acts as an accomplice. Either Bitfinex I believe some day, The truth will soon be out.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: 1Referee on January 30, 2017, 10:45:10 AM
It is more about losing the traceability of the stolen coins (if we assume that they were really stolen). It doesn't matter into how many wallets you divide the coins, they can still be traced back to a wallet to which the coins allegedly had been moved by the hackers right after the hack. A simple program can easily do that, thus these coins will still remain tainted and can be frozen by any exchange or mixer that listens to or believes what Bitfinex is saying, i.e. that the coins from a certain wallet are theirs

Basically that. It really surprises me that there are still people not being able to understand that whatever you do with your coins, that everything can be traced quite easily. Another point of simple ignorace is the fact that they think these coins can be mixed, or be sent to an exchange where after that you convert these stolen coins into whatever altcoins. I can't think of any serious service or exchange that hasn't been notified about the addresses the stolen coins have been sitting in. It doesn't cost services and exchanges any effort to have a small bit of software constantly keeping an eye on these addresses, and pull the trigger as soon as they get a deposit from coins sitting in these wallets, or at some point have been sitting there.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 30, 2017, 10:52:57 AM
I still fully think that Bitfinex are the ones that stole those coins, I really HOPE they aren't but my gut says that this is all them.

I guess they're trying to get their name out a bit right now.

Yep, this has to be the most obvious inside job in Bitcoin history.


I'd like to know If Bitfinex user accounts have 2 Factor Auth. Because If That's the case, It'll be an inside man kinda hack. as Far as I know 2 Fact Authentication can't be breached except there's an inside man who acts as an accomplice. Either Bitfinex I believe some day, The truth will soon be out

They had 2FA but it is irrelevant in this case

Since the hacker could just have broken into their servers from outside and stolen the keys totally bypassing this method of authentication. The coins hadn't been stolen from someone's account (as you erroneously seem to assume), they had been purportedly stolen from Bitfinex cold wallet(s) itself (themselves). But what is highly suspicious here is that all these wallets require multisignature. That pretty much means that all the sigs had been reachable to the attacker (which is yet more fishy) or it was exactly that, the inside job


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: ImHash on January 30, 2017, 11:21:10 AM
Could someone please tell me how exchanges are going to know if they receive stolen bitcoins? is there some kind of alarm going off when they are deposited?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: DimiZb on January 30, 2017, 12:18:50 PM
The Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but nobody knows if the other exchanges will all freeze the coins. I bet Coinbase chooses to freeze. I have never heard of Xzzx or quadrigaCX.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitfinexs-hacked-bitcoins-move-5-recovery-bounty-offered/

Quote
Drew Samsen, Applications Team Leader at Bitfinex, told CCN that it appears coins have been moved to LocalBitcoins, Xzzx, BTC-e, Bitcoin.de, Coinbase, Kraken, CoinsBank and quadrigaCX. He further stated that Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but it is not clear whether some of the other exchanges will follow suite.

Hmm, the hacker must be not happy because exchanges will freeze his money, but we are happy because those exchanges which freezes the hacker's bitcoin is moral action, cheers for moral action in the community.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: miningdude on January 30, 2017, 12:21:23 PM
I don't think its stolen funds ethier, because bitfinex just sitting and drinking a bleach probly they stole it from users and call it a hack or whatever they want to call that shit.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Zadicar on January 30, 2017, 12:27:45 PM
The Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but nobody knows if the other exchanges will all freeze the coins. I bet Coinbase chooses to freeze. I have never heard of Xzzx or quadrigaCX.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitfinexs-hacked-bitcoins-move-5-recovery-bounty-offered/

Quote
Drew Samsen, Applications Team Leader at Bitfinex, told CCN that it appears coins have been moved to LocalBitcoins, Xzzx, BTC-e, Bitcoin.de, Coinbase, Kraken, CoinsBank and quadrigaCX. He further stated that Kraken has frozen 0.4BTC, but it is not clear whether some of the other exchanges will follow suite.

Hmm, the hacker must be not happy because exchanges will freeze his money, but we are happy because those exchanges which freezes the hacker's bitcoin is moral action, cheers for moral action in the community.
This is a nice action for the team leader of Bitfinex which he made some announcements regarding on this matter.Hackers would really have a hard time to encash those funds but still i could think of some ways that hackers would use to encash those coins.There are lots of local wallet provider Bitfinex would hardly to trace that specially if that wallet provider uses main wallet.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on January 30, 2017, 02:11:52 PM
It is more about losing the traceability of the stolen coins (if we assume that they were really stolen). It doesn't matter into how many wallets you divide the coins, they can still be traced back to a wallet to which the coins allegedly had been moved by the hackers right after the hack. A simple program can easily do that, thus these coins will still remain tainted and can be frozen by any exchange or mixer that listens to or believes what Bitfinex is saying, i.e. that the coins from a certain wallet are theirs

Basically that. It really surprises me that there are still people not being able to understand that whatever you do with your coins, that everything can be traced quite easily. Another point of simple ignorace is the fact that they think these coins can be mixed, or be sent to an exchange where after that you convert these stolen coins into whatever altcoins. I can't think of any serious service or exchange that hasn't been notified about the addresses the stolen coins have been sitting in

Just like you're surprised at folks who can't understand that any transaction can be easily traced back to its origin, I'm no less surprised why people are as easily led to believe everything that Bitfinex says to us. Did they provide any evidence that the coins that have been recently reported as moving had actually been stolen from them? As a conspiracy theory, they (or someone closely affiliated with them) might have been moving the coins to test waters. Really, if they got frozen they are expected to get transferred back to Bitfinex. If not, they could be sold and their track thus would be lost for good...

In either case, Bitfinex is losing nothing if they are really behind this "hack"


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Immakillya on January 30, 2017, 02:50:54 PM
The dàmage is already been made. Our trust is lost because of that incident. They should have did that earlier. Many months have passed and now they decided to chase the hacker. They are just doing this to catch our interest. Can they recover the stolen coins? I think it will take a very long time to happen.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: carlfebz2 on January 30, 2017, 03:06:32 PM
The dàmage is already been made. Our trust is lost because of that incident. They should have did that earlier. Many months have passed and now they decided to chase the hacker. They are just doing this to catch our interest. Can they recover the stolen coins? I think it will take a very long time to happen.
Agree,trust on bitfinex have been destroyed already but still they are making such move now because bitfinex are just monitoring on the wallet that the funds have been stored and now they saw that its moving they are making actions now but i believe and same as you mentioned i think its really hard to recover up those coins that have been stolen in the past.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: greentea on January 30, 2017, 03:21:37 PM
Could someone please tell me how exchanges are going to know if they receive stolen bitcoins? is there some kind of alarm going off when they are deposited?

Most likely it will be the bitcoin community that alerts the exchange that the coins are moving or being deposited.

If all the coins go to poloniex or some exchange like that, the reddit community or someone will be all over the chatbox
telling the admins to investigate. 

They could also just use a simple API or transaction alert to notify them if coins are moving from those addresses into their exchange.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: HI-TEC99 on January 31, 2017, 09:28:23 PM
I still fully think that Bitfinex are the ones that stole those coins, I really HOPE they aren't but my gut says that this is all them.

I guess they're trying to get their name out a bit right now.

Yep, this has to be the most obvious inside job in Bitcoin history.


I'd like to know If Bitfinex user accounts have 2 Factor Auth. Because If That's the case, It'll be an inside man kinda hack. as Far as I know 2 Fact Authentication can't be breached except there's an inside man who acts as an accomplice. Either Bitfinex I believe some day, The truth will soon be out

They had 2FA but it is irrelevant in this case

Since the hacker could just have broken into their servers from outside and stolen the keys totally bypassing this method of authentication. The coins hadn't been stolen from someone's account (as you erroneously seem to assume), they had been purportedly stolen from Bitfinex cold wallet(s) itself (themselves). But what is highly suspicious here is that all these wallets require multisignature. That pretty much means that all the sigs had been reachable to the attacker (which is yet more fishy) or it was exactly that, the inside job


2FA is useless if a customer service representative at a telecom carrier is negligent and forwards or ports your phone number to a hacker’s device. It's a common reason for big hacks.

Customer service representatives who don't ask all the security questions they should often give hackers control of people's phone numbers.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2016/12/20/hackers-have-stolen-millions-of-dollars-in-bitcoin-using-only-phone-numbers/

Quote
In all these cases, as with Kenna’s, the hackers don’t even need specialized computer knowledge. The phone number is the key. And the way to it get control of it is to find a security-lax customer service representative at a telecom carrier. Then the hacker can use the common security measure called two-factor authentication (2FA) via text. Logging in with 2FA via SMS is supposed to add an extra layer of security beyond your password by requiring you to input a code you receive via SMS (or sometimes phone call) on your mobile phone. All fine and dandy if you’re in possession of your phone number. But if it’s been forwarded or ported to your hacker’s device, then that code is sent straight to them, giving them the keys to your email, bank accounts, cryptocurrency, Facebook and Twitter accounts, and more.

Last summer, the National Institutes of Standards and Technology, which sets security standards for the federal government, “deprecated” or indicated it would likely remove support for 2FA via SMS for security. While the security level for the private sector is different from that of the government, Paul Grassi, NIST senior standards and technology advisor, says SMS “never really proved possession of a phone because you can forward your text messages or get them on email or on your Verizon website with just a password. It really wasn’t proving that second factor.”


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: SaShiRaJaVu on January 31, 2017, 11:57:46 PM
I don't think its stolen funds ethier, because bitfinex just sitting and drinking a bleach probly they stole it from users and call it a hack or whatever they want to call that shit.
May be it is true may be not. Either way the FBI is investigating the case and if it is an inside job sure they will catch the culprit as i think this is the only case investigated by the FBI when it comes to bitcoin exchanges.It is not that easy to recover the funds and if you check the history of bitcoin exchanges none of the coins have being recovered till now,so the hopes of recovery are very slim.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: BitHodler on February 01, 2017, 12:19:27 AM
I don't think its stolen funds ethier, because bitfinex just sitting and drinking a bleach probly they stole it from users and call it a hack or whatever they want to call that shit.
May be it is true may be not. Either way the FBI is investigating the case and if it is an inside job sure they will catch the culprit as i think this is the only case investigated by the FBI when it comes to bitcoin exchanges.It is not that easy to recover the funds and if you check the history of bitcoin exchanges none of the coins have being recovered till now,so the hopes of recovery are very slim.
If it was actually an inside job, then Bitfinex has had enough time to set up a plan to distract the attention away from the majority of the stolen coins.

In that matter, Bitfinex is having a great advantage over every entity involved in the investigations. They can just point the investigators to certain addresses containing a few thousand coins to keep them busy.

In the worst case these investigations can take a few years if Bitfinex operators have done their job well. And in that time these coins will have been cleaned (if they haven't done so already).

But then again, I personally believe it was an inside job, but there is no proof despite the shady behavior of Bitfinex before and after the alleged theft. One thing however is certain, this exchange shouldn't be trusted anymore.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pinkflower on February 01, 2017, 07:31:54 AM
The mixer services are currently under scrutiny from most governments and they will possibly work with the authorities to identify

the people behind this hack. If they resist, they will just attract a lot of negative attention and they do not need that now. The

authorities do not need to ask nicely, they can just force them with a Subpoena through the courts. The exchanges is no problem,

because they already work with most governments, if they adhere to AML/KYC regulations.  ::)   

But think of a situation if they give in to the demands of the government of some country. This will also hurt the reputation of the BTC mixing service too. Most people from the darknet market will stop using them and what will happen? They might close down because of the pressure from the government or if theyre anonymous, they could run and hide with all the BTC they are holding becoming another scam. It could happen.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Mometaskers on February 01, 2017, 11:11:54 AM
They'll probably only be able to recover a small part of it, if ever. As for returning it to the owners, how would that exactly work? Are each single bit tagged? Hopefully even if they don't recover much, this would show the way on how exchanges and mixer operators can work together to foil thieves. I mean, there's no point stealing something if you can't gain anything out of it.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Xester on February 01, 2017, 01:08:54 PM
It is more about losing the traceability of the stolen coins (if we assume that they were really stolen). It doesn't matter into how many wallets you divide the coins, they can still be traced back to a wallet to which the coins allegedly had been moved by the hackers right after the hack. A simple program can easily do that, thus these coins will still remain tainted and can be frozen by any exchange or mixer that listens to or believes what Bitfinex is saying, i.e. that the coins from a certain wallet are theirs

Basically that. It really surprises me that there are still people not being able to understand that whatever you do with your coins, that everything can be traced quite easily. Another point of simple ignorace is the fact that they think these coins can be mixed, or be sent to an exchange where after that you convert these stolen coins into whatever altcoins. I can't think of any serious service or exchange that hasn't been notified about the addresses the stolen coins have been sitting in

Just like you're surprised at folks who can't understand that any transaction can be easily traced back to its origin, I'm no less surprised why people are as easily led to believe everything that Bitfinex says to us. Did they provide any evidence that the coins that have been recently reported as moving had actually been stolen from them? As a conspiracy theory, they (or someone closely affiliated with them) might have been moving the coins to test waters. Really, if they got frozen they are expected to get transferred back to Bitfinex. If not, they could be sold and their track thus would be lost for good...

In either case, Bitfinex is losing nothing if they are really behind this "hack"

It is unclear if bitfinex is involved with the lost bitcoins or they are also victims. Many are clamoring that they are possibly the perpetrator themselves and they just transferred the blame to hackers. This idea comes from the observation that bitfinex has not made a significant move to catch or trace this hackers on the run. The investors who lost their coins had not seen the sincerity of bitfinex pertaining this matter and so they believe that it was inside job definitely.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on February 01, 2017, 02:01:57 PM
They had 2FA but it is irrelevant in this case

Since the hacker could just have broken into their servers from outside and stolen the keys totally bypassing this method of authentication. The coins hadn't been stolen from someone's account (as you erroneously seem to assume), they had been purportedly stolen from Bitfinex cold wallet(s) itself (themselves). But what is highly suspicious here is that all these wallets require multisignature. That pretty much means that all the sigs had been reachable to the attacker (which is yet more fishy) or it was exactly that, the inside job


2FA is useless if a customer service representative at a telecom carrier is negligent and forwards or ports your phone number to a hacker’s device. It's a common reason for big hacks.

Customer service representatives who don't ask all the security questions they should often give hackers control of people's phone numbers

Sad but totally true

I read a similar story when clients of a certain bank had their money stolen through this or similar method, through negligence of their mobile operator. I don't know all the technical details of that story but as I got it, hackers gained access to Internet banking by stealing logins and passwords of their victims, then managed to get SMS confirmations redirected to their phones and thereby they were able to successfully withdraw the funds. If I remember correctly, the bank in question had to refund the stolen money, though I'm not sure if it was entirely their decision or a court had demanded them to refund


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pinkflower on February 02, 2017, 06:17:32 AM
They had 2FA but it is irrelevant in this case

Since the hacker could just have broken into their servers from outside and stolen the keys totally bypassing this method of authentication. The coins hadn't been stolen from someone's account (as you erroneously seem to assume), they had been purportedly stolen from Bitfinex cold wallet(s) itself (themselves). But what is highly suspicious here is that all these wallets require multisignature. That pretty much means that all the sigs had been reachable to the attacker (which is yet more fishy) or it was exactly that, the inside job


2FA is useless if a customer service representative at a telecom carrier is negligent and forwards or ports your phone number to a hacker’s device. It's a common reason for big hacks.

Customer service representatives who don't ask all the security questions they should often give hackers control of people's phone numbers

Sad but totally true

I read a similar story when clients of a certain bank had their money stolen through this or similar method, through negligence of their mobile operator. I don't know all the technical details of that story but as I got it, hackers gained access to Internet banking by stealing logins and passwords of their victims, then managed to get SMS confirmations redirected to their phones and thereby they were able to successfully withdraw the funds. If I remember correctly, the bank in question had to refund the stolen money, though I'm not sure if it was entirely their decision or a court had demanded them to refund

What about the kind of 2FA that uses the google authenticator app? Those are much safer than the ones used via SMS. Didnt one of the biggest investors of Ethereum and Augur get his cellphone hacked and had all his ETH and REP stolen? I dont know the whole story of what happened but it there was a blog from Kraken that said the hackers were able to receive his 2FA codes.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on February 02, 2017, 09:10:24 AM
They had 2FA but it is irrelevant in this case

Since the hacker could just have broken into their servers from outside and stolen the keys totally bypassing this method of authentication. The coins hadn't been stolen from someone's account (as you erroneously seem to assume), they had been purportedly stolen from Bitfinex cold wallet(s) itself (themselves). But what is highly suspicious here is that all these wallets require multisignature. That pretty much means that all the sigs had been reachable to the attacker (which is yet more fishy) or it was exactly that, the inside job


2FA is useless if a customer service representative at a telecom carrier is negligent and forwards or ports your phone number to a hacker’s device. It's a common reason for big hacks.

Customer service representatives who don't ask all the security questions they should often give hackers control of people's phone numbers

Sad but totally true

I read a similar story when clients of a certain bank had their money stolen through this or similar method, through negligence of their mobile operator. I don't know all the technical details of that story but as I got it, hackers gained access to Internet banking by stealing logins and passwords of their victims, then managed to get SMS confirmations redirected to their phones and thereby they were able to successfully withdraw the funds. If I remember correctly, the bank in question had to refund the stolen money, though I'm not sure if it was entirely their decision or a court had demanded them to refund

What about the kind of 2FA that uses the google authenticator app? Those are much safer than the ones used via SMS. Didnt one of the biggest investors of Ethereum and Augur get his cellphone hacked and had all his ETH and REP stolen? I dont know the whole story of what happened but it there was a blog from Kraken that said the hackers were able to receive his 2FA codes

I don't really know, so I can't say anything of substance on this matter

I never used the Google authenticator before, and somehow I considered SMS verification a more reliable and safe method of confirming transactions. Are you sure that it is a really much better way of authenticating (probably, I should look deeper into the matter myself). On the other hand, if someone gets his phone hacked, wouldn't Google auth be as risky to use on this phone? Anyway, it would be beneficial for all if someone more knowledgeable than me chimed in on this


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Carlton Banks on February 02, 2017, 11:01:14 AM
What about the kind of 2FA that uses the google authenticator app? Those are much safer than the ones used via SMS. Didnt one of the biggest investors of Ethereum and Augur get his cellphone hacked and had all his ETH and REP stolen? I dont know the whole story of what happened but it there was a blog from Kraken that said the hackers were able to receive his 2FA codes.

For using the Google Authenticator 2FA protocol, you don't need a device that's connected to the internet, it just needs to be set to the correct time and date. So, you could mitigate attacks against a phone by keeping a separate phone specifically for your 2FA keys and app, that has no SIM or any WiFi connection.

I would recommend against using Google's closed source Authenticator client on a phone connected to the internet/phone network, but it's probably not an issue for an air-gapped phone. FreeOTP is a good open source authenticator that uses Google's protocol, if you're wanting to use an open source client.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on February 02, 2017, 11:32:49 AM
What about the kind of 2FA that uses the google authenticator app? Those are much safer than the ones used via SMS. Didnt one of the biggest investors of Ethereum and Augur get his cellphone hacked and had all his ETH and REP stolen? I dont know the whole story of what happened but it there was a blog from Kraken that said the hackers were able to receive his 2FA codes.

For using the Google Authenticator 2FA protocol, you don't need a device that's connected to the internet, it just needs to be set to the correct time and date. So, you could mitigate attacks against a phone by keeping a separate phone specifically for your 2FA keys and app, that has no SIM or any WiFi connection

That seems interesting

Say, I have an Android emulator installed on my computer (I was using it when there hadn't yet been a tablet version of WhatsApp, and WhatsApp worked), so I could install Google Authenticator there, disable the network connection and use it safely? Is FreeOTP available in Google Play? What is the basic principle behind this method of authentication, in two words (as you understand it)?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Carlton Banks on February 02, 2017, 12:47:03 PM
Say, I have an Android emulator installed on my computer (I was using it when there hadn't yet been a tablet version of WhatsApp, and WhatsApp worked), so I could install Google Authenticator there, disable the network connection and use it safely?

You could do that, although I would describe it as "safer", not absolutely safe. It's just a mouse move in the IT security cat & mouse game.

Is FreeOTP available in Google Play? What is the basic principle behind this method of authentication, in two words (as you understand it)?

I believe Play Store has it, but I get my FreeOTP app from the F-Droid Store (https://f-droid.org)

It uses the same protocol as GAuth. The principle is that the app creates a "One Time" access code that is only valid for a few minutes. The website checking the access code has a copy of your GAuth key (they gave it to you to begin with), and so they can ascertain that the code you provide to them is authentic. It (the access code) is essentially just your Gauth key and the current time/date run through a hashing algorithm (I think it's a multiple hash algo affair, the codes are shorter than the bitlengths of the hash algos used)
'



Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on February 02, 2017, 03:02:08 PM
Say, I have an Android emulator installed on my computer (I was using it when there hadn't yet been a tablet version of WhatsApp, and WhatsApp worked), so I could install Google Authenticator there, disable the network connection and use it safely?

You could do that, although I would describe it as "safer", not absolutely safe. It's just a mouse move in the IT security cat & mouse game.

Is FreeOTP available in Google Play? What is the basic principle behind this method of authentication, in two words (as you understand it)?

I believe Play Store has it, but I get my FreeOTP app from the F-Droid Store (https://f-droid.org)

It uses the same protocol as GAuth. The principle is that the app creates a "One Time" access code that is only valid for a few minutes. The website checking the access code has a copy of your GAuth key (they gave it to you to begin with), and so they can ascertain that the code you provide to them is authentic. It (the access code) is essentially just your Gauth key and the current time/date run through a hashing algorithm (I think it's a multiple hash algo affair, the codes are shorter than the bitlengths of the hash algos used)

That seems to be the point that I was missing in understanding what GAuth is basically about (and needed to know). But in that case, I can't possibly see how it can be safer than sms verification. Essentially, the hacker just needs to steal your GAuth code (which is simply your access key) to confirm anything which you set to confirm with it. Indeed, you would still need access to a user account for which the access code is being generated but you would anyway need this access to make use of a successful phone hack. Therefore, I guess, we can compare the security of these two methods of authentication directly, and I don't see any advantages of Google Authenticator. Stealing this key is likely much easier than hacking a phone

What else am I missing here?


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: Factmine on February 02, 2017, 11:56:46 PM
Say, I have an Android emulator installed on my computer (I was using it when there hadn't yet been a tablet version of WhatsApp, and WhatsApp worked), so I could install Google Authenticator there, disable the network connection and use it safely?

You could do that, although I would describe it as "safer", not absolutely safe. It's just a mouse move in the IT security cat & mouse game.

Is FreeOTP available in Google Play? What is the basic principle behind this method of authentication, in two words (as you understand it)?

I believe Play Store has it, but I get my FreeOTP app from the F-Droid Store (https://f-droid.org)

It uses the same protocol as GAuth. The principle is that the app creates a "One Time" access code that is only valid for a few minutes. The website checking the access code has a copy of your GAuth key (they gave it to you to begin with), and so they can ascertain that the code you provide to them is authentic. It (the access code) is essentially just your Gauth key and the current time/date run through a hashing algorithm (I think it's a multiple hash algo affair, the codes are shorter than the bitlengths of the hash algos used)

That seems to be the point that I was missing in understanding what GAuth is basically about (and needed to know). But in that case, I can't possibly see how it can be safer than sms verification. Essentially, the hacker just needs to steal your GAuth code (which is simply your access key) to confirm anything which you set to confirm with it. Indeed, you would still need access to a user account for which the access code is being generated but you would anyway need this access to make use of a successful phone hack. Therefore, I guess, we can compare the security of these two methods of authentication directly, and I don't see any advantages of Google Authenticator. Stealing this key is likely much easier than hacking a phone

What else am I missing here?

The problem with SMS verification is that sometimes you don't have your phone with you. Unlike a 2FA google authenticator where you can install it on your PC, tablet, phone or whatever device that supports it. Though, I would say it is a layer of security that would not really be hard to crack like you said. An SMS verification is much more secure but give a lot of hassle in my opinion.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: pinkflower on February 03, 2017, 06:11:40 AM
What about the kind of 2FA that uses the google authenticator app? Those are much safer than the ones used via SMS. Didnt one of the biggest investors of Ethereum and Augur get his cellphone hacked and had all his ETH and REP stolen? I dont know the whole story of what happened but it there was a blog from Kraken that said the hackers were able to receive his 2FA codes.

For using the Google Authenticator 2FA protocol, you don't need a device that's connected to the internet, it just needs to be set to the correct time and date. So, you could mitigate attacks against a phone by keeping a separate phone specifically for your 2FA keys and app, that has no SIM or any WiFi connection.

I would recommend against using Google's closed source Authenticator client on a phone connected to the internet/phone network, but it's probably not an issue for an air-gapped phone. FreeOTP is a good open source authenticator that uses Google's protocol, if you're wanting to use an open source client.

So its safer than 2FA via SMS then. I have an old ipod touch thats lying around in my office desk and hardly use it for anything since all my songs are already in my phone and I use Spotify most of the time anyway. I could start using that only for 2FA purposes.


Title: Re: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move
Post by: deisik on February 03, 2017, 08:44:25 AM
That seems to be the point that I was missing in understanding what GAuth is basically about (and needed to know). But in that case, I can't possibly see how it can be safer than sms verification. Essentially, the hacker just needs to steal your GAuth code (which is simply your access key) to confirm anything which you set to confirm with it. Indeed, you would still need access to a user account for which the access code is being generated but you would anyway need this access to make use of a successful phone hack. Therefore, I guess, we can compare the security of these two methods of authentication directly, and I don't see any advantages of Google Authenticator. Stealing this key is likely much easier than hacking a phone

What else am I missing here?

The problem with SMS verification is that sometimes you don't have your phone with you. Unlike a 2FA google authenticator where you can install it on your PC, tablet, phone or whatever device that supports it. Though, I would say it is a layer of security that would not really be hard to crack like you said. An SMS verification is much more secure but give a lot of hassle in my opinion.

I'm not sure if I'm quite correct on this (I just vaguely remember something like that) but mobile operators (at least some of them) may allow you to access copies of sms sent to your phone through their online services. Thus if you have this option enabled, you can see the confirmation SMS codes even without your phone nearby. Regarding GAuth, its use might be really counterproductive if Google left some hole in it, either intentionally or inadvertently...

So if someone finds it, the app itself could potentially lead to money loss