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Author Topic: Stolen Bitfinex Coins on the Move  (Read 5527 times)
deisik
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January 28, 2017, 04:28:14 PM
 #41

It's really scary to know like a third of the coins were stolen but at least BIFINEX is not closing down and will compensate everyone so customers have not lost out.

Compensating people in form of worthless tokens that people can exchange to a certain amount of equity in the main company is not really a worthy compensation if you ask me. People simply want their cold hard coins back. This "comensation" is just set up to keep people their mouths shut for a good while

This is not so much about keeping people's mouths shut as giving people (most likely) false hope of getting their coins back eventually, somewhere in the future. Basically, they are trying to keep their client base since without them and their fresh coins they will quickly turn into a Bter-like exchange which leads mostly a ghostly existence now (but at least they didn't socialize the losses caused by the theft, unlike Bitfinex)...

Personally, I don't think this will help Bitfinex in the long term but they can still drag on for some time

It's funny though that they are offering a bounty even to the hacker lol. He should be rewarded for hacking? I am not so sure, but if he returned the dough that would be something.

It's indeed funny, but at the same time quite a desperate call as well. Especially if you consider that there might not have been a hack at all. But in case these coins are really stolen due to a hack, then a bounty could be a last resort option. If you don't try, you won't gain anything. But there is more to it than simply a reward. I am sure that they try to contact the "hacker(s)" in the hope that they make a mistake where they potentially can be traced one way or another. Nothing will be done without a reason. Thieves won't be rewarded just like that. Wink

I wouldn't trust a word coming from Bitfinex officials. Trusting them might harm innocent people not involved in this affair altogether. Though that shouldn't be misconstrued as me endorsing theft or hacks

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January 28, 2017, 04:46:00 PM
 #42

The mixer services are currently under scrutiny from most governments and they will possibly work with the authorities to identify

the people behind this hack. If they resist, they will just attract a lot of negative attention and they do not need that now. The

authorities do not need to ask nicely, they can just force them with a Subpoena through the courts. The exchanges is no problem,

because they already work with most governments, if they adhere to AML/KYC regulations.  Roll Eyes   

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January 28, 2017, 05:34:43 PM
 #43

I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

Bitfinex is offering a 5% reward for each coin anyone can return to it. Any exchange sent stolen coins can claim 5% of them and return the rest to bitfinex. Dong that would pay them more money than they would get if they let the hacker withdraw or trade any coins he deposited to an exchange. All those exchanges will probably opt to claim the 5% reward because of the financial incentive.


There is not only the economic incentives that likely for an exchange are not very large compared to an individual. Think of it however as a collegiality and solidarity. If you were one of the shareholders of another exchange I believe that you would like the same way others to do for you, don't you? In these circumstances there is no the competition issue but anyone accepts or receives stolen goods then is called conspirator or fence and this action is a criminal offence punishable by the law in any country of the world.
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January 28, 2017, 05:46:10 PM
 #44

I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

Bitfinex is offering a 5% reward for each coin anyone can return to it. Any exchange sent stolen coins can claim 5% of them and return the rest to bitfinex. Dong that would pay them more money than they would get if they let the hacker withdraw or trade any coins he deposited to an exchange. All those exchanges will probably opt to claim the 5% reward because of the financial incentive.


There is not only the economic incentives that likely for an exchange are not very large compared to an individual. Think of it however as a collegiality and solidarity. If you were one of the shareholders of another exchange I believe that you would like the same way others to do for you, don't you? In these circumstances there is no the competition issue but anyone accepts or receives stolen goods then is called conspirator or fence and this action is a criminal offence punishable by the law in any country of the world

How do you know that?

I'm more inclined to think that the laws differ significantly between countries in this respect, especially if you don't know and can't know for sure that these coins have been actually stolen. For example, Bitfinex claims that coins in a certain wallet are actually theirs, but why should anyone consider them as trustful in the first place? What is the difference between some exchange claiming the ownership of certain coins from someone else claiming the same? The owner of that wallet may just say that Bitfinex is spreading deliberate lies about their real ownership

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January 28, 2017, 06:00:51 PM
 #45

The mixer services are currently under scrutiny from most governments and they will possibly work with the authorities to identify

the people behind this hack. If they resist, they will just attract a lot of negative attention and they do not need that now. The

authorities do not need to ask nicely, they can just force them with a Subpoena through the courts. The exchanges is no problem,

because they already work with most governments, if they adhere to AML/KYC regulations.  Roll Eyes   
How do you suggest a mixer like Bitmixer.io to provide any assistant to governments with or without court order when they literally have nothing to give them? or maybe you think they are lying about destroying all the logs after 24 hours?
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January 28, 2017, 06:02:40 PM
 #46

This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.

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January 28, 2017, 06:20:25 PM
 #47

I wonder why they are trying to offload some coins now... I mean, surely a hacker with that level of expertise would have the patience to wait a few more years until nobody is bothering to track the Bitfinex coins any more.  And by then the coins would be worth much more.  I'm afraid this does smell to me like an inside job with accompanying publicity stunt to recover some coins and restore customer confidence.  If I had those coins I'd still be sitting on them until Moon.
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January 28, 2017, 06:26:49 PM
 #48

I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

Bitfinex is offering a 5% reward for each coin anyone can return to it. Any exchange sent stolen coins can claim 5% of them and return the rest to bitfinex. Dong that would pay them more money than they would get if they let the hacker withdraw or trade any coins he deposited to an exchange. All those exchanges will probably opt to claim the 5% reward because of the financial incentive.


There is not only the economic incentives that likely for an exchange are not very large compared to an individual. Think of it however as a collegiality and solidarity. If you were one of the shareholders of another exchange I believe that you would like the same way others to do for you, don't you? In these circumstances there is no the competition issue but anyone accepts or receives stolen goods then is called conspirator or fence and this action is a criminal offence punishable by the law in any country of the world

How do you know that?

I'm more inclined to think that the laws differ significantly between countries in this respect, especially if you don't know and can't know for sure that these coins have been actually stolen. For example, Bitfinex claims that coins in a certain wallet are actually theirs, but why should anyone consider them as trustful in the first place? What is the difference between some exchange claiming the ownership of certain coins from someone else claiming the same? The owner of that wallet may just say that Bitfinex is spreading deliberate lies about their real ownership


I would answer. Yes, the laws differ from country to country but a thief is always a thief like as anyone accepts stolen goods. Have you any proofs about laws that say the opposite?
The difference between two exchanges are the customers of bitfinex. How many people can claim that hacker stole their coins? Ten, one-hundred more and hacker is only one. That means there is no court that believes him. On the other side some of the customers may have proofs that bought their coins from other exchanges, ATM machines, localbitcoins using sepa or web banking and so on. The owner of that wallet must prove where are these coins come from.
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January 28, 2017, 07:34:18 PM
 #49


It's clear that if you cause so much damage to an exchange, that you as hacker don't have any moral problems with keeping these coins even though you know that innocent people have been suffering.
What are they going to do with their coins if they keep them? As of now, they are unable to exchange them for fiat, and are unable to use them to buy anything of any meaningful amount.
They are indeed in a stuck situation when it comes to their coins, but there are a few options that they can consider when it comes to liquidating their coins.

* In a certain way (could be with middlemen) cashing out their coins on the black market where significant discounts are given to attract buyers. It's obviously not without danger of getting busted.

* Slowly mixing their coins where they do it with small amounts at a time to not attract any unwanted attention. Of course not through the well known mixers as they will most likely put these coins on hold.

Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.

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January 28, 2017, 07:47:59 PM
 #50

Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.

But then wouldn't those people have difficulty moving those coins??  It doesn't matter how heavily discounted the coins are if you can't spend them!
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January 28, 2017, 08:13:19 PM
 #51


It's clear that if you cause so much damage to an exchange, that you as hacker don't have any moral problems with keeping these coins even though you know that innocent people have been suffering.
What are they going to do with their coins if they keep them? As of now, they are unable to exchange them for fiat, and are unable to use them to buy anything of any meaningful amount.
They are indeed in a stuck situation when it comes to their coins, but there are a few options that they can consider when it comes to liquidating their coins.

* In a certain way (could be with middlemen) cashing out their coins on the black market where significant discounts are given to attract buyers. It's obviously not without danger of getting busted.

* Slowly mixing their coins where they do it with small amounts at a time to not attract any unwanted attention. Of course not through the well known mixers as they will most likely put these coins on hold.

Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.


I think so too. I would like to add that if these coins actually end up to the black market maybe the most easy, although slow way, is to convert them face to face, very few every time with cash i.e its an option in localbitcoins as I know, asking lower price than other sellers so as to attract buyers. Therefore, I am wondering how vulnerable is any unsuspecting buyer before the law who will buy with cash a fraction or the most one or two bitcoins?
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January 28, 2017, 08:16:19 PM
 #52

Well known mixers maybe will not accept to mix such coins, but there are not so well known mixers in the deep web or dark net and the Shield mixer there works well and is not scam yet so I think they will not give a damn about these coins if they are stolen or not.

Let's not forget Hashocean, everyone know they moved away with 5249 BTC, yet nothing happened to them. I don't believe any stolen coin will be ever returned unfortunately. That's why is never recommended to keep your coins in any exchange.

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January 28, 2017, 08:40:27 PM
 #53

Don't forget that money moves mountains where literally everything is possible on the black market. I am sure there are enough people looking to bank by buying these coins at a massive discount even though they know these coins are stolen.

But then wouldn't those people have difficulty moving those coins??  It doesn't matter how heavily discounted the coins are if you can't spend them!
Yup, whoever ends up buying these coins while knowing that they are coming from theft will face the same problems as the hackers do right now. But as I said, I am sure there are enough people willing to take that risk.

Another possibility is that these coins end up being sold in small batches to people not aware of the source of these coins. I am sure these hackers aren't shy of putting innocent people into problems for their own benefit.

And if the coins don't get sold at all, then these hackers will have enough time to wait for a decentralized exchange to pop up where they can convert their coins into whatever asset. Options are wide open for them.

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January 28, 2017, 09:28:07 PM
 #54

This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.
This is not the first bitcoin exchange hack and not a single coin has been recovered till now,it is good to see people actively monitoring the wallets containing the coin,since the number of wallets are huge it is really difficult to monitor all of them and top of that the hacker must be a brilliant individual who knows how to handle these coins.

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January 28, 2017, 09:50:40 PM
 #55

This transparency of the open ledger has always been something that has made Bitcoin seem so very special to me. The very idea of tracking funds (and as here in the Bitfinex case: stolen funds) on a ledger that anyone in the world can see is pretty exciting.
This is not the first bitcoin exchange hack and not a single coin has been recovered till now,it is good to see people actively monitoring the wallets containing the coin,since the number of wallets are huge it is really difficult to monitor all of them and top of that the hacker must be a brilliant individual who knows how to handle these coins.

Even by doing all sorts of pretty work of hacking the wallets, but still the hacker is not able to enjoy it, it should be a long term process as now he will also be knowing that all his wallets are open to the world so any transactions to this wallets will lead him to the trouble. So it will take more years to clear it for him.














 

 

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January 28, 2017, 09:56:30 PM
 #56

Well known mixers maybe will not accept to mix such coins, but there are not so well known mixers in the deep web or dark net and the Shield mixer there works well and is not scam yet so I think they will not give a damn about these coins if they are stolen or not.

Let's not forget Hashocean, everyone know they moved away with 5249 BTC, yet nothing happened to them. I don't believe any stolen coin will be ever returned unfortunately. That's why is never recommended to keep your coins in any exchange.
To my mind hashocean is and will be strict lesson for people who believed in it.
Mixers are mixing coins automatically but it seems, if that hacker was so talented to hack bitfinex, than don't you think that hiding of simple sources isn't hard for him? That was well planned attack by very cognizant man in bitcoin and web attacks. To my mind it's impossible to correct that situation on well side.

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January 28, 2017, 10:12:09 PM
 #57

If the coins do end up getting returned, then this will be a turning point for Bitcoin as in major BTC related thefts/losses in the past
Exchanges can refuse client that without a doubt trying to sell stolen funds, but funds won't be returned to owners. How that would happen? There is no magic. Hoever, bitcoin transactions are not reversible and they won't be. If they would be, that would be the end of bitcoin as we know it.

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January 28, 2017, 10:23:59 PM
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Hmm, I really thought (and still have a doubt about it) that Bitfinex "hack" was a simple scam to run away with the money. If they'll return the money, it could've still been a scam and they ran away with the money, made more money out of the scam and now they're returning what they stole to their users. Anyways, a lot of people have lost their money there and returning it to them will make them come back to Bitcoin (people lost their trust in BTC too). I still remember that HUGE freefall in BTC's price from $600 to $400 or $350 if I am right. The return of the stolen money would rise the price with hundreds of bucks again!

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January 29, 2017, 09:19:00 AM
 #59

How do you know that?

I'm more inclined to think that the laws differ significantly between countries in this respect, especially if you don't know and can't know for sure that these coins have been actually stolen. For example, Bitfinex claims that coins in a certain wallet are actually theirs, but why should anyone consider them as trustful in the first place? What is the difference between some exchange claiming the ownership of certain coins from someone else claiming the same? The owner of that wallet may just say that Bitfinex is spreading deliberate lies about their real ownership

I would answer. Yes, the laws differ from country to country but a thief is always a thief like as anyone accepts stolen goods. Have you any proofs about laws that say the opposite?
The difference between two exchanges are the customers of bitfinex. How many people can claim that hacker stole their coins? Ten, one-hundred more and hacker is only one. That means there is no court that believes him. On the other side some of the customers may have proofs that bought their coins from other exchanges, ATM machines, localbitcoins using sepa or web banking and so on. The owner of that wallet must prove where are these coins come from.

Obviously, you don't get my point

I'm not denying that coins of people had been stolen at Bitfinex. But what Bitfinex right now claims is that some wallet allegedly contains the stolen coins and that they started being moved to another wallet. How do you know that the coins in that wallet had been really stolen from Bitfinex apart from Bitfinex claiming that? Did they show any evidence that the offending transactions actually got into that wallet from a Bitfinex wallet due to the theft (hack)? If they can't reveal such evidence, why should we believe them and their claims?

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January 29, 2017, 09:44:11 AM
 #60

I sincerely hope stolen coins get frozen. Crypto scum should never be allowed to profit from their crime. It undermines trust into the community and gives them ideas to repeat the whole process.

I don't know if this is a good solution. because all coins are created equal, and frozen coin means even censorship.
Actually in such case could be the right solution (why an exchange need to deal with stolen coins?)
But one day the community could argue the same for coins passed form a political activist or even the government could decide to mark a coin.


 
 
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A V E N T U S
 
 

 
 
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Event ticketing Antifraud Solution
   No counterfeits No touting
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