Bitcoin Forum

I am amazed by the number of people (most of them being newbies) who complain about how difficult it is to obtain some bitcoins.  Bitcoin is a money, so what did they expect  ?  Did they think they would just start the program and that bitcoin would just magically generate money ??   How valuable would be bitcoins in that case ??


It's perfectly normal that the casual user have difficulties generating any single bitcoin.  A casual user uses a very common machine, such as mine, a laptop with a Intel 1.6GHz processor.  Obviously, if it was easy to generate bitcoins with such a machine, then there would be something wrong with the whole cryptocurrency concept.  To me, it does make sense that only state-of-the-art machines can generate bitcoins.


Is that unfair ?  I don't think so.  Not at all.  Anyone who really wants to own bitcoins can just buy some.  There's nothing wrong if some effort is required to obtain something.  Whether this effort is technical (acquiring and running powerful machines) or financial.

Yeah, that's like complaining about dollars because you can't easily print some more whenever you want

Maybe it was a strategic mistake to advertise that property of the bitcoin system to newcomers as a way to obtain bitcoins, the truth is that the majority will not generate bitcoins nor is it desirable that they would. It's supposed to be a medium of exchange, not a mining game ...

but those people who print dollars are not taking it for themselves. So it's a little unfair to give most of coins to people with powerfull machines.

People who print money do it with no effort whatsoever, and there is no limit to their greed.

On the contrary, bitcoin miners are just extracting something which exist in a limited amount anyway.  As it has been said many times, it's just the same for gold.  Can't blame someone because he has found some gold in a river, or because he decided to spend some time there looking for some.


Seriously, mining is a perfectly respectable activity.  And there is no unfairness in it, since anyone can do it if he really wants to.  Powerfull machines are not a priviledge.  Anybody can buy one.

All one needs to say to these people is: "If it was easy, the coins would be worthless".

Unfortunately a large proportion of the population have been brought up to believe that wealth is some kind of fixed universal quantity that is "distributed", rather than something that can be created by work.

Of course they are.
The state not only uses the dollar printers in order to manipulate the interest rates for their demagogic purposes, but they also use it as a financing source, since the debt bounds that expire in the hands of the Fed aren't payed off by the Treasury. They do finance their activities through the printing of money.

I think you should re-read some of the complaints.  It's become very difficult to get USD into the system to buy bitcoins since no one accepts credit cards or paypal to buy them.

I believe it was a massive mistake, at least the way it was expressed with some of the early posts even on this forum.  I've seen some posts full of contempt for the newcomers.

The Bitcoin faucet was a good early source of getting some bitcoins to at least play around with the concept, and I'm glad that at least somebody saw that need.  Unfortunately, if that is the only input that can be trusted for bitcoins, it is rather weak.


Amen on that point too!  Excluding Americans from participating in the system, which is what this implies, is ignoring a huge early market for Bitcoins.  The legal issues surrounding alternative currencies in America have been discussed extensively on other threads, including potential problems with converting dollars to Bitcoins and the other way around.

While there may be many who trust the current exchanges within the Bitcoin community, they are all very new ideas themselves and certainly haven't established credibility with the general public.  That is going to take time.

On the whole, this is something that eventually will work out of the system as people begin to understand the concept as a whole,  It also takes coming up with other ways to both obtain and spend bitcoins.

I think a free market approach to gpu envy can be found. There must be some bitcoiners who have empty slots in their computers but cant afford to buy a new graphics card to fill it. There are also bitcoiners who want to get in on the gpu action but dont want to outlay for an entire computer system. So why dont those with empty gpu slots advertise the fact and people can buy a gpu to fill the empty spot and then share any bitcoins generated with that card?

This might be unfeasible given the trust issues involved , but could one of the existing big miners offer this as a service? Let people buy them gpu cards and in return earn bitcoins?

Can you monitor each gpu to know if it was the one that created a block?

Is there a business model in hosting peoples gpu's? I know if I could just buy the gpu , hire a slot , and not have to buy the entire computer system - it would be great!

For all of us Europeans, does anyone know if a wire transfer using IBAN + swift is possible without receiver name? Someone, myself maybe, could allow wire to bitcoins, and maybe even find a way to do wire to mtgox. PayPal (sucks) could be used to transfer to and from mtgox, I'm sure, if a single trusted entity is used instead of mtgox having to deal with chargebacks and such from multiple users.

If done at low volume it should not be a legal problem and it would serve to help getting users into bitcoin. I wouldn't see this growing to a full blown exchange service without the legalities being solved, though, so just a "bandaid" solution for the time being?

I'm a "bleeding heart libertarian."  When I was young and naive I was "progressive/liberal," but now that I'm old and wise (or maybe just more cynical) I have a much greater respect for the positive incentives built-in to private markets, and the negative incentives built-in to government.

So I'm very sympathetic to the "it isn't fair that people with the fastest/most GPUs generate more bitcoins" point of view.

I agree that it would be more fair if every person started with an equal number of bitcoins.  Work harder than average or provide a service that people value and you'd end up with more than you started with.  Otherwise, you'd get bitcoin poor.

But I don't see a way to do that without some central authority deciding who is, and who is not, a 'person'.  And I'm old and cynical enough to think that if there WAS a central authority making that decision, that central authority would very quickly devolve into a corrupt, favor-granting, power-grabbing institution.

"Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Andresen, for the Good of the System we are delaying the granting of your second child's Bitcoin Bounty until they have completed the mandatory consumer education classes, registered to vote, and have completed the voluntary 250 hours of America Freedom:Works! projects that they were assigned."

If you've got a brilliant, fool-proof, decentralized way of solving the identity problem, speak up!  That'd be an even bigger breakthrough than bitcoin.

I pretty much came to libertarianism by a similar path.  I was once a Green, and once an elector for the Democratic Convention of my state.  Attend one of those just once, and you will forever be rid of the illusion of democracy.


Everyone does start off with an equal number of bitcoins, we all start of with zero.

Brilliant!

ByteCoin

Brilliant, indeed.

Hardly brilliant, and misses the point.

The issue is how to jump-start the economy and get the basic economic unit flowing around.  In order to do that, there has to be some means to earn the coins in at least some fashion.

Yes, I know there are multiple ways of doing that including simply getting a pile of money and buying them on the exchanges, but that isn't using Bitcoins as money, that is merely using Bitcoins as a transport medium, sort of like a variation of PayPal.  Bitcoins can and to me ought to be so much more than that.

If most people have zero Bitcoins, they simply won't be buying stuff with it.  On the other hand, if they have a few bitcoins (not a lot, but some) then if somebody comes up with some crazy idea that might earn them a few bitcoins, at least somebody has a few to spare that they would be willing to try out the idea.

On the other hand, if Bitcoins are hoarded in the hands of just a few, then it is possible that the new idea will fall flat on its face because nobody is willing to try the idea out, and those who have the pile of money don't want it.  I'm not saying that most of the money concentrated in the hands of a few is a bad thing, I'm just saying that something must be in the hands of many people, even if it is just a very little bit.

Distributing the creation of new bitcoins a little more widely is something that on the whole helps everybody, which is the point I'm trying to drive home.  It is also the source of the complaints here.  I don't think it is envy (for the most part) that these folks are missing out on the bulk of the new coins being mined, but rather the inability to even get into the game in the first place, or wondering if the software even works at all.

You get born without money in your pocket.  The way bitcoin is now is perfect.

Basically what you are saying could be said about the very concept of money itself, not just bitcoins.  Discussing about this would lead us to discussing about communism vs liberalism.  This is a debate that goes far beyond bitcoins.

At the risk of provoking an economics argument, I think that economies are driven by people having supplies and demands that they wish to match up with other people's demands and supplies respectively. The money is just a means of facilitating this. The problem with Bitcoin is that the current monetary system performs this function very effectively and the reason why there's not more Bitcoin activity is that there's not a persuasive reason to engage in it.

If you look at other e-currencies like egold, you can see this effect in action. The illegal money-laundering side of the economy gravitated towards egold because unlike the normal financial system, egold didn't actively discourage it.

So in order to "jump start" the Bitcoin economy you need some application that it can satisfy better than the normal monetary system. Preferably you need an application that isn't arguably illegal or the "authorities" will come down on it like a tonne of bricks regardless of its actual legality - mark my words.
Anyway, that application is not micropayments; Bitcoin isn't good at that. It's not full anonymity either as payments are at best pseudonymous. Nor is it instant irrevocable payments as they take time to confirm.

I think Bitcoin is at the moment and implementation in search of an application. The greatest rewards for using it have so far been intelectual and to me it has the flavour of something released into the wild as an experiment.

ByteCoin

"customer is boss"
If there are many complaints, we better take them into account

A customer is a customer only if he buys.

People who complain about how difficult it is to generate don't buy any bitcoins, almost per definition.

So we can't consider them as "customers".

I didn't miss your point, I just don't agree with were you are going.  I've seen this argument before, as it is essentially the same argument in favor 'living wage' laws and unemployment insurance.  That if people don't have money (beyond their basic needs) then there will not be anyone to buy the products that create the jobs to life economies out of reccessions.  It's a false premise, and I was cutting you off before you got there.


Actually, no.  That's not an issue at all.  Bitcoin isn't even ready to support an economy.  It really only has value now because a small minority of people are speculating that it will be ready and able to independently support an economy when there is a need for it in the near future and that such a need will materialize.  If the fiat currencies of the world were stable, such a need might never come to pass, but they are not.


And it will be, when it's time for it.  If there is a way to buy bitcoins now, then there will be other ways in the future.


If someone comes up with a great new idea, for which Bitcoin is either particularly well suited for it, or the circumstances surrounding fiat currency makes using them a detriment, then those who desire to participate will find the bitcoin that they need.


There is an inherent contradiction in the above statement.

If those who are hoarding the bitcoins don't want it, then why are they hoarding them?


We already have such a situation, but even if we didn't, the distribution of new coins as is done now would still not need to be more 'equitable'.  Not only is equality not a requirement for a new currency, it's actually a detriment.


Policy should not be designed based on complaints.  If some people wanted a few to try out, there is the bitcoin faucet, as well as the pay-it-forward project.

The point is not about the definition of customers or potential customers or (I should have better called them) potential USERS.
we need to quickly enable simple ways for them to buy bitcoins.

I agree with grondilu that we should not think they should get them all for free - by the way, bitcoin faucet is great but most people want af least a ciuple of hundreds of bitcoins.
there are so many people interested out there who will be willing to bug some limited amounts of bitcoins.

There is also http://bitcointo.com where people can earn bitcoins just for shopping at places such as amazon.com
I recently added extra sites to the list such as Popcap games where people can earn %5 of their purchase back. people obviously dont want bitcoins badly enough . :)

There are already simple ways to buy bitcoins.  Cash via mail is one of them.

I personnaly never succeeded in generating any single bitcoin, and yet I own a lot of them now.  So buying bitcoin is not that difficult for people who really want to.

This is a great service, and I'm sure it would be popular with newcomers if it was more clearly explained.

For example, if I go to the page titled "Amazon UK %1 Back (http://www.bitcointo.com/search/label/Amazon%20UK%20%251%20Back)", I see an ad for Amazon.co.uk Gift Certificates, and a heading that says "Just in - Amazon UK Gift Cards".

But nowhere does it say "Click on this ad to get to Amazon, then do your regular Amazon shopping, then contact me to get 1% of your purchase price sent to you as Bitcoins. Just contact me 14 days after your purchase by ...".

If that's how it works, it's awesome and you should tell people how it works. Also, it should say 1% not %1 which is sure to be confusing some people.

Hi,

then this concept doesn't make any more sense than a bunch of developers earn lots of bitcoins because of their high-end machines the easy way... All the other people interested in bitcoins have to work hard or pay real money for just earning few bitcoins.

Sorry, that sounds like real life Wall Street to me. A developer equipped with state-of-the-art-hardware, which earned him 100 bitcoins last night, wants to tell me (old 1GHz notebook), that I have to pay money for my very first (and few) bitcoins? This is neo-con capitalism. Doesn't work IRL, won't work with bitcoin neither.

Do you want to increase the number of bitcoin users and want them to use the coins to make the bitcoin system work?
Or do you just want to play a kind of facebook Wall Street game?

After WWII in Germany every person got a starter package of 60 DM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Mark#Currency_reform_of_June_1948). Think about what would've happened without this money.

What about a "social" bitcoin fund? For every hundred bitcoins mined automatically one bitcoin goes into this fund. This fund every week will divided up to the number of new bitcoin users (maximum 10 BTC per user, the rest stays in the fund for the future)

Maybe it could work like this:

mined: 10000 BTC last week
funded: 100 BTC
new users: 1
pay-out: 10 BTC per new user
rest: 90 BTC

mined: 50000 BTC last week
funded: 500 BTC
new users: 100
pay-out: 5 BTC per new user
rest: 0 BTC

The fund could be limited to 100.000 BTC. Every BTC above that level can be donated to charity organisations (valuable bitcoin marketing ;-) )

Every day it will be more difficult for bitcoin newcomers to earn just one bitcoin. At least one needs a small sense of achivement when starting with bitcoins to accept the system.

If not, this is going to be a big developer boys playground.

jmtc.

Kind regards
Michael

+1 love the idea!

You have a point. I appreciate the feedback so I can improve things thanks Ribuck. *appoints ribuck marketing manager...

 :)

I love that idea.  Just a couple of questions about it. Would it be done through extra transaction fees as a community participation dividend?
How are you going to know whether someone is a "new" user and not a fake account?

There is "the Faucet" - where new users can go and receive bitcoin for free just to play with.

Also, when I first discovered bitcoin and started tweeting about it on twitter...  some really cool people ( like noagendamarket, bitcoinmedia) asked me for my bitcoin address.   I wasn't really sure why.  But then proceeded to send me 10 BTC one day...   10 BTC the next day... and 50 BTC a few days later...    Sort of like an anonymous benefactor.    It sounds silly....  because no one else had my address....  ( or did they?? :)  )     But it was such an intriguing way to become fascinated by the whole thing!  

So, finding someone brand new to bitcoin who's just discovered it, and is tweeting about it somewhere .... and sending them little spurts of bitcoin... is a VERY effective way to get people hooked on it.    It's like a real demo + "paying it forward", all in one.  (In fact, he's also the one who told me about "the Faucet" too.  

The next thing to remind new users (and ourselves), is that the number one best way to get bitcoin is to Earn Bitcoin - to add Bitcoin as a payment option on your own web site.  This can be as simple as saying,  "We accept Bitcoin. Email us for details." and/or adding the "We accept Bitcoin logo" to your site.  Then, getting Your Own Business listed on the Trade page at Bitcoin.org and BitcoinShop.com

They also need to be reminded that the easiest way to Buy Bitcoin is with cash -- either through a local dealer, or a reputable trusted Bitcoin-for-Cash-by-Mail dealer.   Point them to the growing list of Bitcoin-for-Cash Dealers, listed by area, and by mail, on BitcoinShop.com

I've now mentioned that my new site, BitcoinShop.com will act as three things:

(1)  a super simple primer for the bitcoin newbie
(2)  a master directory of local bitcoin-for-cash dealers, and by-mail dealers
(3)  a master directory of local and web merchants who accept bitcoin

Ok.    I have to go now.....   and create this site.   I'll report back soon.

@S3052: Thanks.

@noagendamarket:
I don't know! I'm not a developer. I'm not even interested in developing the bitcoin system. I don't have to.
I'm interested in using it, earning some bitcoins/money, spending some bitcoins/money (yes, for the bitcoin developers too), spreading the news because I see a lot of potential in this concept.

By the way: It should be ok, if one or two "old" bitcoiners use fake accounts to get some more coins.
There always are some antisocial idiots anyway. The system should be that robust to compensate this kind of misuse.
But if there are 6 to 8 fake accounts out of 10 "new" bitcoiners, then not these fake accounts are the problem.
Then it is the systems problem.
And then it's not my problem anymore, because I wouldn't need another greedy system like this.

@brucewagner:
Yes, there are some services to collect and change BTC. But this is not the point.

The point is, that some members obviously earn bitcoins the easy way because of their high-end equipment
(as it is said in the bitcoin FAQs: Earn bitcoins by solving mathematical problems and building blocks.
Oh, you don't use the newest 8GHz-Hexacore-64GB-Fly-me-to-the-moon-PC-o-Minator?? Haha, owned!)

How does it look for a non-tech newbie, when he is told he first have to buy bitcoins to use the system? Or sell things for bitcoins?
That's not the way it works.

Getting BTCs just by tweeting about Bitcoin is a more noble and satisfying way to start with Bitcoin. But not everybody tweets. Or facebooks. Or blogs. To get this tweet-like feeling you had it would be nice to get a few BTCs when starting the client the first time. And this could be made with a bitcoin fund. Maybe.

Oh, and what is "The Faucet"?

Kind regards
Michael

The Bitcoin Faucet (http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/) is a site that gives away BTC 0.05 absolutely free to any new user, so that they can get started with Bitcoin.

It was the source of my first BTC, long before I managed to generate any. Thanks to Gavin Andresen who runs it.

Hi ribuck,

thanks. Got 0.05 BTC, sent 0.05 BTC.
Nice for testing and getting a "feeling" for using bitcoins.

And what is really, really inspiring: I've got and sent BTC worth 0.01 Euros. Immediately. Without fee.
Eat this, Paypal! ;-)

Maybe this service can be kind of basis for a funding concept...

Kind regards
Michael

Well, how is using your tech skills to put your machine mining better, or spending $300 in a GPU not count as buying bitcoins? Sure, if you have these things/skills you have a leverage on the getting of bitcoins, but how is that different from taking that huge bag of cash and buying bitcoins? I don't have a bag of cash, so I feel that to be very unfair. No one should be allowed to buy bitcoins, at least not if they have more money than the average user?

Money is money.  It's not "fair".   


I think you're catching on....    :-)

Bitcoin is not a game.   

Bitcoin is a game changer.

It's not about necessary to "start out" with with some...   ( Although, The Faucet does exactly that... what you were wishing for. Thanks, so much, Gavin Andresen! )

After all, when you were born, did your government give you some Starter Money...?    I doubt it.   Unless you are a citizen of UAE.

The way most people get more Money.... is to earn it.     :)

So SELL something!        ......and accept Bitcoin!

People get all hung up on the "game" of creating bitcoin.   It's not about that at all.   That's just a semi-cool sidebar.    Invest in a powerful computer.   At the same time, help the strength of the Bitcoin network.    And you are rewarded.    it is TOTALLY democratic...  because ANYONE can do it.     It IS, however, an investment.    Just like a business.

But the POINT of Bitcoin, from my view, is....   as you said....   "Bye Bye PayPal!"     :)     YES!!!!

Hi Bruce,

Seems so. But maybe not the way you and me want to...

So, when you were born, you immediately stood up, cut the cord and went away earning money for your clothes, food, pampers, pacifier, cradle, medical checkups etc.?!? Wow!

Sorry, of all bad arguments this is the worst.
Think again and then thank your parents for your personal Starter Money!


Yes, IMHO it is essential that every new bitcoin user gets at least a little starter kit to spend.
And having fun doing so.
And keep using Bitcoin.
And spread the word.

@nelisky:
I'm talking about starting with Bitcoin.
I don't have a problem with best equipped people mining lots of BTC all day long (as long as they don't hoarding it).
I have a problem with these people don't granting newcomers even a few welcome bitcoins because these don't use/own the latest equipment. This is short-sighted and counterproductive. Finally this attitude will repel interested low-tech users. Bitcoin will then be used only by the technical avantgarde (maybe 5% of internet users world wide). If this is what you want...

I hope that the majority of registered bitcoin users is searching for an alternative money system,
for the possibility to spend money the easy way for music, software, blogs, goods etc. (and Bitcoin IS easy!)
and last but not least for avoiding most of the errors, misuses and problems of existing offline currencies.
Like me.

If this is so, I'm in. If not...

Kind regards
Michael

So, I guess you should ask your mom for some coins.

WTF ?!  What's preventing him from just BUYING some ?

For me you sound just as if you were willing to have some stuff for nothing.

Bitcoin is a money.  It doesn't come with a free beer.

Edit.
I'm sorry to say that, but this whole speech about "it would be more fair if we give everyone a same amount for starting", smells so much like communism, I can't help saying it loud.  Yes, it seems to me it is just a way to put some socialist ideas about money.

Cryptocurrencies are like gold.  Socialists don't like them.  Because they can't control it.  Because they can't steal it "to the rich to give to the poor".  They think it's "unfair".

Let's imagine we can distribute a same part of the 21 millions bitcoins for everyone in the world.  Say, 7 billions humans.  That will be 0.003 BTC.  Ok, everything is fine and fair, now, hum ?  For how long ?  What to do with every new born child after that, hum ?  And after some time, when some people will just spend their bitcoins and return to nothing, while some others will just hoard bitcoins, you'll have the same inequalities you were complaining about.  So what was you point ?  You were happy to create a fair and equal world during a few days, a few weeks maybe ?  This is stupid.

You should give out your coins to strangers. I'll keep mine for myself, my family, and my friends.

Also you should copy your post to Bernanke, he's into this sort of thing.

edit: not the "give to everyone" aspect. But if you want to create the coins out of air, he might have some tips.

That's exactly how it works.  It's money, that's the point.

BTW, if you want to give away your bitcoins, or argue to others to voluntarily grant a share of their coins to new users; I'm all for that.  However, if anything close to what you have proposed should ever become compulsory, I'll abandon Bitcoin entirely.  I imagine that many others would as well.

So either you won't use the system as it is, or I won't use the system as you would wish it to be; which is the greater loss?  I can't say, but by your own admission, you don't have any money anyway and I'm pretty sure that, between the two of us, I'm the one with the education in Economics.

I think there are two things to distinguish:

1) How to easily acquire bitcoins
This should really be very simple if we want to have bitcoin usage growing. At the same time, it should not be mandatory to give it out free. If some people chose to do so, fine.
I compare it a bit with seeds. To enjoy a growing apple tree you have to go into a store and buy seeds. If your neighbor gives you a couple of seeds, nice from him, but you shouldn't go to your neighbors garden and steal the apples.

2) How to generate
This is like gold mining. A novice with a spade alone won't be able to get a lot of gold. But this is fine, because gold miners invest a lot of resorces (capital, people, technology) into it. They have deserved to mine more gold as John Doe Average.

The only thing we need to be careful is managing expectations. It should be clarified in the client, on bitcoin.org, etc. what people can expect to generate with a couple of different computers systems (standard PC, laptop, server clusers, etc... at least ballpark figures). There is really no need to change the system, but we all do not want to disappoint new (potential) bitcoin users.

Makes sense?

If you want to give your coins away the faucet accepts them too.

Take away ALL the money from the smart and rich.   Give ALL of it to the less intelligent and the lazy.   Within no time at all...   All that money will be back in the hands of the smart again.   It's been proven time and time again throughout history.

Money is only "fair" when it is earned, spent, and given.   Not when it is taken away compulsorily.

like the starter kit we get from paypal, or liberty reserve, or moneybookers?
we already do, don't we?
it's zero, equal to all of us.
and still we use paypal, liberty reserve, moneybookers without complaining about not getting free money in advance.

i dont get it.

I think the system should be designed to automatically give people in the US more bitcoin....   because we are fatter.    Therefore, we need more money....   to pay for food....   and larger clothing.

I know..lets print lots and lots of money then we will all be rich....oh wait.

Actually, That was part of PayPal's origins.   Before being acquired by PayPal, Elon Musk's x.com was giving each new account $5 seed money.  This was marketing genius and one of the first "viral" growth stories on the Internet.

I just learned about Bitcoin the other day, and hope to build up my Bitcoin wallet a little by selling some stuff on BiddingPond: http://www.biddingpond.com/active_auctions.php?user_id=103 (http://www.biddingpond.com/active_auctions.php?user_id=103)

That is a lot different though. PayPal had investors, and the currency they were using already had value to people. Also they required you to prove who you were to get the $5, that would break a major advantage of bitcoin.

What I'm wondering is  ... is it fair since Bitcoin was much easier to generate earlier?

It's like inheriting wealth.  Most of the buik of the current 4.6 million BTC in existence today ( per http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/ ) was earned with much less effort than the next 4.6 million BTC will require.

So by moving to BTC we would just be slaves to a different master (those who were first-movers / early adopters), right?

Sure, but I'll help you with your chains.  I'll buy all the coins you have for 10 cents each and you can then run away from all this.

Nothing in life is fair :)
The distribution of the bitcoins doesn't matter that much. Though it scares me a bit too how many of them are already around, sitting idle. Someone could get the idea of selling them and ruin everything.

Maybe they'd even sell them to me! At a very low price! The horror  ;D

I invested $2200 in a bitcoin mining machine, and it's not even half paid back yet. So, I'm actually in the hole right now for mining. That is not "free money for the elite".

Please don't tell me that it's not fair that I get coins out of the miner. This is what we call an "investment", AND, it makes YOUR coins more secure from tampering.

EDIT: AND with difficulty increasing I am also risking my hard earned money on the chance I won't even be able to pay it off.

Hmmm.   So who's really the "slave" and who's really the "master"...?  :)
Did anyone get rich from mining very early on?
I wonder how many bitcoin Satoshi owns.      :)

Enough that he has a strong motivation to continue developing the system regardless of burnout, and enough to make him a wealthy man upon Bitcoin's mainstream success if he hasn't sold too many of his coins.  He certainly has the genesis block, which has never been transfered to any other address according to Bitcoin Explorer., which I understand has a premium value, as at least one other forum member was willing to pay 10 times the market value for the genesis block coins.  I want Satoshi to be wealthy for what he has done here.  He can't do well without many others doing well, including myself.  And I care not at all who might think that is unfair.

depends,
not if coins have been sold, or spent very early on,
but maybe those who bought them.

+1

+11. And I want Satoshi to win the Nobel Prize for Economics too. I wonder if he can collect that anonymously?

From the FAQ: http://www.bitcoin.org/faq

> At the moment, though, you can generate new coins quite profitably,

So, .., that probably should get updated?