People complaining about how hard it is to generate

[MoonShadow]

I agree that it would be more fair if every person started with an equal number of bitcoins.

Everyone does start off with an equal number of bitcoins, we all start of with zero.

Hardly brilliant, and misses the point.

I didn't miss your point, I just don't agree with were you are going.  I've seen this argument before, as it is essentially the same argument in favor 'living wage' laws and unemployment insurance.  That if people don't have money (beyond their basic needs) then there will not be anyone to buy the products that create the jobs to life economies out of reccessions.  It's a false premise, and I was cutting you off before you got there.

The issue is how to jump-start the economy and get the basic economic unit flowing around.  In order to do that, there has to be some means to earn the coins in at least some fashion.

Actually, no.  That's not an issue at all.  Bitcoin isn't even ready to support an economy.  It really only has value now because a small minority of people are speculating that it will be ready and able to independently support an economy when there is a need for it in the near future and that such a need will materialize.  If the fiat currencies of the world were stable, such a need might never come to pass, but they are not.

Yes, I know there are multiple ways of doing that including simply getting a pile of money and buying them on the exchanges, but that isn't using Bitcoins as money, that is merely using Bitcoins as a transport medium, sort of like a variation of PayPal.  Bitcoins can and to me ought to be so much more than that.

And it will be, when it's time for it.  If there is a way to buy bitcoins now, then there will be other ways in the future.

If most people have zero Bitcoins, they simply won't be buying stuff with it.  On the other hand, if they have a few bitcoins (not a lot, but some) then if somebody comes up with some crazy idea that might earn them a few bitcoins, at least somebody has a few to spare that they would be willing to try out the idea.

If someone comes up with a great new idea, for which Bitcoin is either particularly well suited for it, or the circumstances surrounding fiat currency makes using them a detriment, then those who desire to participate will find the bitcoin that they need.

On the other hand, if Bitcoins are hoarded in the hands of just a few, then it is possible that the new idea will fall flat on its face because nobody is willing to try the idea out, and those who have the pile of money don't want it. 

There is an inherent contradiction in the above statement.

If those who are hoarding the bitcoins don't want it, then why are they hoarding them?

I'm not saying that most of the money concentrated in the hands of a few is a bad thing, I'm just saying that something must be in the hands of many people, even if it is just a very little bit.

We already have such a situation, but even if we didn't, the distribution of new coins as is done now would still not need to be more 'equitable'.  Not only is equality not a requirement for a new currency, it's actually a detriment.

Distributing the creation of new bitcoins a little more widely is something that on the whole helps everybody, which is the point I'm trying to drive home.  It is also the source of the complaints here.  I don't think it is envy (for the most part) that these folks are missing out on the bulk of the new coins being mined, but rather the inability to even get into the game in the first place, or wondering if the software even works at all.

Policy should not be designed based on complaints.  If some people wanted a few to try out, there is the bitcoin faucet, as well as the pay-it-forward project.

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[S3052]

"customer is boss"
If there are many complaints, we better take them into account

A customer is a customer only if he buys.

People who complain about how difficult it is to generate don't buy any bitcoins, almost per definition.

So we can't consider them as "customers".

The point is not about the definition of customers or potential customers or (I should have better called them) potential USERS.
we need to quickly enable simple ways for them to buy bitcoins.

I agree with grondilu that we should not think they should get them all for free - by the way, bitcoin faucet is great but most people want af least a ciuple of hundreds of bitcoins.
there are so many people interested out there who will be willing to bug some limited amounts of bitcoins.

[Anonymous]

There is also http://bitcointo.com where people can earn bitcoins just for shopping at places such as amazon.com
I recently added extra sites to the list such as Popcap games where people can earn %5 of their purchase back. people obviously dont want bitcoins badly enough .

[grondilu]

The point is not about the definition of customers or potential customers or (I should have better called them) potential USERS.
we need to quickly enable simple ways for them to buy bitcoins.

There are already simple ways to buy bitcoins.  Cash via mail is one of them.

I personnaly never succeeded in generating any single bitcoin, and yet I own a lot of them now.  So buying bitcoin is not that difficult for people who really want to.

[ribuck]

There is also http://bitcointo.com where people can earn bitcoins just for shopping at places such as amazon.com

This is a great service, and I'm sure it would be popular with newcomers if it was more clearly explained.

For example, if I go to the page titled "Amazon UK %1 Back", I see an ad for Amazon.co.uk Gift Certificates, and a heading that says "Just in - Amazon UK Gift Cards".

But nowhere does it say "Click on this ad to get to Amazon, then do your regular Amazon shopping, then contact me to get 1% of your purchase price sent to you as Bitcoins. Just contact me 14 days after your purchase by ...".

If that's how it works, it's awesome and you should tell people how it works. Also, it should say 1% not %1 which is sure to be confusing some people.

[6174Kauri]

Hi,

then this concept doesn't make any more sense than a bunch of developers earn lots of bitcoins because of their high-end machines the easy way... All the other people interested in bitcoins have to work hard or pay real money for just earning few bitcoins.

Sorry, that sounds like real life Wall Street to me. A developer equipped with state-of-the-art-hardware, which earned him 100 bitcoins last night, wants to tell me (old 1GHz notebook), that I have to pay money for my very first (and few) bitcoins? This is neo-con capitalism. Doesn't work IRL, won't work with bitcoin neither.

Do you want to increase the number of bitcoin users and want them to use the coins to make the bitcoin system work?
Or do you just want to play a kind of facebook Wall Street game?

After WWII in Germany every person got a starter package of 60 DM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Mark#Currency_reform_of_June_1948). Think about what would've happened without this money.

What about a "social" bitcoin fund? For every hundred bitcoins mined automatically one bitcoin goes into this fund. This fund every week will divided up to the number of new bitcoin users (maximum 10 BTC per user, the rest stays in the fund for the future)

Maybe it could work like this:

mined: 10000 BTC last week
funded: 100 BTC
new users: 1
pay-out: 10 BTC per new user
rest: 90 BTC

mined: 50000 BTC last week
funded: 500 BTC
new users: 100
pay-out: 5 BTC per new user
rest: 0 BTC

The fund could be limited to 100.000 BTC. Every BTC above that level can be donated to charity organisations (valuable bitcoin marketing ;-) )

Every day it will be more difficult for bitcoin newcomers to earn just one bitcoin. At least one needs a small sense of achivement when starting with bitcoins to accept the system.

If not, this is going to be a big developer boys playground.

jmtc.

Kind regards
Michael

[S3052]

+1 love the idea!

[Anonymous]

There is also http://bitcointo.com where people can earn bitcoins just for shopping at places such as amazon.com

This is a great service, and I'm sure it would be popular with newcomers if it was more clearly explained.

For example, if I go to the page titled "Amazon UK %1 Back", I see an ad for Amazon.co.uk Gift Certificates, and a heading that says "Just in - Amazon UK Gift Cards".

But nowhere does it say "Click on this ad to get to Amazon, then do your regular Amazon shopping, then contact me to get 1% of your purchase price sent to you as Bitcoins. Just contact me 14 days after your purchase by ...".

If that's how it works, it's awesome and you should tell people how it works. Also, it should say 1% not %1 which is sure to be confusing some people.

You have a point. I appreciate the feedback so I can improve things thanks Ribuck. *appoints ribuck marketing manager...

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

then this concept doesn't make any more sense than a bunch of developers earn lots of bitcoins because of their high-end machines the easy way... All the other people interested in bitcoins have to work hard or pay real money for just earning few bitcoins.

Sorry, that sounds like real life Wall Street to me. A developer equipped with state-of-the-art-hardware, which earned him 100 bitcoins last night, wants to tell me (old 1GHz notebook), that I have to pay money for my very first (and few) bitcoins? This is neo-con capitalism. Doesn't work IRL, won't work with bitcoin neither.

Do you want to increase the number of bitcoin users and want them to use the coins to make the bitcoin system work?
Or do you just want to play a kind of facebook Wall Street game?

After WWII in Germany every person got a starter package of 60 DM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Mark#Currency_reform_of_June_1948). Think about what would've happened without this money.

What about a "social" bitcoin fund? For every hundred bitcoins mined automatically one bitcoin goes into this fund. This fund every week will divided up to the number of new bitcoin users (maximum 10 BTC per user, the rest stays in the fund for the future)

Maybe it could work like this:

mined: 10000 BTC last week
funded: 100 BTC
new users: 1
pay-out: 10 BTC per new user
rest: 90 BTC

mined: 50000 BTC last week
funded: 500 BTC
new users: 100
pay-out: 5 BTC per new user
rest: 0 BTC

The fund could be limited to 100.000 BTC. Every BTC above that level can be donated to charity organisations (valuable bitcoin marketing ;-) )

Every day it will be more difficult for bitcoin newcomers to earn just one bitcoin. At least one needs a small sense of achivement when starting with bitcoins to accept the system.

If not, this is going to be a big developer boys playground.

jmtc.

Kind regards
Michael

I love that idea.  Just a couple of questions about it. Would it be done through extra transaction fees as a community participation dividend?
How are you going to know whether someone is a "new" user and not a fake account?

[Bruce Wagner]

There is "the Faucet" - where new users can go and receive bitcoin for free just to play with.

Also, when I first discovered bitcoin and started tweeting about it on twitter...  some really cool people ( like noagendamarket, bitcoinmedia) asked me for my bitcoin address.   I wasn't really sure why.  But then proceeded to send me 10 BTC one day...   10 BTC the next day... and 50 BTC a few days later...    Sort of like an anonymous benefactor.    It sounds silly....  because no one else had my address....  ( or did they??  )     But it was such an intriguing way to become fascinated by the whole thing!  

So, finding someone brand new to bitcoin who's just discovered it, and is tweeting about it somewhere .... and sending them little spurts of bitcoin... is a VERY effective way to get people hooked on it.    It's like a real demo + "paying it forward", all in one.  (In fact, he's also the one who told me about "the Faucet" too.  

The next thing to remind new users (and ourselves), is that the number one best way to get bitcoin is to Earn Bitcoin - to add Bitcoin as a payment option on your own web site.  This can be as simple as saying,  "We accept Bitcoin. Email us for details." and/or adding the "We accept Bitcoin logo" to your site.  Then, getting Your Own Business listed on the Trade page at Bitcoin.org and BitcoinShop.com

They also need to be reminded that the easiest way to Buy Bitcoin is with cash -- either through a local dealer, or a reputable trusted Bitcoin-for-Cash-by-Mail dealer.   Point them to the growing list of Bitcoin-for-Cash Dealers, listed by area, and by mail, on BitcoinShop.com

I've now mentioned that my new site, BitcoinShop.com will act as three things:

(1)  a super simple primer for the bitcoin newbie
(2)  a master directory of local bitcoin-for-cash dealers, and by-mail dealers
(3)  a master directory of local and web merchants who accept bitcoin

Ok.    I have to go now.....   and create this site.   I'll report back soon.

[6174Kauri]

@S3052: Thanks.

@noagendamarket:
I don't know! I'm not a developer. I'm not even interested in developing the bitcoin system. I don't have to.
I'm interested in using it, earning some bitcoins/money, spending some bitcoins/money (yes, for the bitcoin developers too), spreading the news because I see a lot of potential in this concept.

By the way: It should be ok, if one or two "old" bitcoiners use fake accounts to get some more coins.
There always are some antisocial idiots anyway. The system should be that robust to compensate this kind of misuse.
But if there are 6 to 8 fake accounts out of 10 "new" bitcoiners, then not these fake accounts are the problem.
Then it is the systems problem.
And then it's not my problem anymore, because I wouldn't need another greedy system like this.

@brucewagner:
Yes, there are some services to collect and change BTC. But this is not the point.

The point is, that some members obviously earn bitcoins the easy way because of their high-end equipment
(as it is said in the bitcoin FAQs: Earn bitcoins by solving mathematical problems and building blocks.
Oh, you don't use the newest 8GHz-Hexacore-64GB-Fly-me-to-the-moon-PC-o-Minator?? Haha, owned!)

How does it look for a non-tech newbie, when he is told he first have to buy bitcoins to use the system? Or sell things for bitcoins?
That's not the way it works.

Getting BTCs just by tweeting about Bitcoin is a more noble and satisfying way to start with Bitcoin. But not everybody tweets. Or facebooks. Or blogs. To get this tweet-like feeling you had it would be nice to get a few BTCs when starting the client the first time. And this could be made with a bitcoin fund. Maybe.

Oh, and what is "The Faucet"?

Kind regards
Michael

[ribuck]

Oh, and what is "The Faucet"?

The Bitcoin Faucet is a site that gives away BTC 0.05 absolutely free to any new user, so that they can get started with Bitcoin.

It was the source of my first BTC, long before I managed to generate any. Thanks to Gavin Andresen who runs it.

[6174Kauri]

Hi ribuck,

thanks. Got 0.05 BTC, sent 0.05 BTC.
Nice for testing and getting a "feeling" for using bitcoins.

And what is really, really inspiring: I've got and sent BTC worth 0.01 Euros. Immediately. Without fee.
Eat this, Paypal! ;-)

Maybe this service can be kind of basis for a funding concept...

Kind regards
Michael

[nelisky]

@brucewagner:
Yes, there are some services to collect and change BTC. But this is not the point.

The point is, that some members obviously earn bitcoins the easy way because of their high-end equipment
(as it is said in the bitcoin FAQs: Earn bitcoins by solving mathematical problems and building blocks.
Oh, you don't use the newest 8GHz-Hexacore-64GB-Fly-me-to-the-moon-PC-o-Minator?? Haha, owned!)

Well, how is using your tech skills to put your machine mining better, or spending $300 in a GPU not count as buying bitcoins? Sure, if you have these things/skills you have a leverage on the getting of bitcoins, but how is that different from taking that huge bag of cash and buying bitcoins? I don't have a bag of cash, so I feel that to be very unfair. No one should be allowed to buy bitcoins, at least not if they have more money than the average user?

[Bruce Wagner]

Well, how is using your tech skills to put your machine mining better, or spending $300 in a GPU not count as buying bitcoins? Sure, if you have these things/skills you have a leverage on the getting of bitcoins, but how is that different from taking that huge bag of cash and buying bitcoins? I don't have a bag of cash, so I feel that to be very unfair. No one should be allowed to buy bitcoins, at least not if they have more money than the average user?

Money is money.  It's not "fair".   

Hi ribuck,

thanks. Got 0.05 BTC, sent 0.05 BTC.
Nice for testing and getting a "feeling" for using bitcoins.

And what is really, really inspiring: I've got and sent BTC worth 0.01 Euros. Immediately. Without fee.
Eat this, Paypal! ;-)

Maybe this service can be kind of basis for a funding concept...

Kind regards
Michael

I think you're catching on....    :-)

Bitcoin is not a game.   

Bitcoin is a game changer.

It's not about necessary to "start out" with with some...   ( Although, The Faucet does exactly that... what you were wishing for. Thanks, so much, Gavin Andresen! )

After all, when you were born, did your government give you some Starter Money...?    I doubt it.   Unless you are a citizen of UAE.

The way most people get more Money.... is to earn it.     

So SELL something!        ......and accept Bitcoin!

People get all hung up on the "game" of creating bitcoin.   It's not about that at all.   That's just a semi-cool sidebar.    Invest in a powerful computer.   At the same time, help the strength of the Bitcoin network.    And you are rewarded.    it is TOTALLY democratic...  because ANYONE can do it.     It IS, however, an investment.    Just like a business.

But the POINT of Bitcoin, from my view, is....   as you said....   "Bye Bye PayPal!"          YES!!!!

[6174Kauri]

Hi Bruce,

I think you're catching on....    :-)

Seems so. But maybe not the way you and me want to...

After all, when you were born, did your government give you some Starter Money...?    I doubt it.   Unless you are a citizen of UAE.

So, when you were born, you immediately stood up, cut the cord and went away earning money for your clothes, food, pampers, pacifier, cradle, medical checkups etc.?!? Wow!

Sorry, of all bad arguments this is the worst.
Think again and then thank your parents for your personal Starter Money!

It's not about necessary to "start out" with with some...

Yes, IMHO it is essential that every new bitcoin user gets at least a little starter kit to spend.
And having fun doing so.
And keep using Bitcoin.
And spread the word.

@nelisky:
I'm talking about starting with Bitcoin.
I don't have a problem with best equipped people mining lots of BTC all day long (as long as they don't hoarding it).
I have a problem with these people don't granting newcomers even a few welcome bitcoins because these don't use/own the latest equipment. This is short-sighted and counterproductive. Finally this attitude will repel interested low-tech users. Bitcoin will then be used only by the technical avantgarde (maybe 5% of internet users world wide). If this is what you want...

I hope that the majority of registered bitcoin users is searching for an alternative money system,
for the possibility to spend money the easy way for music, software, blogs, goods etc. (and Bitcoin IS easy!)
and last but not least for avoiding most of the errors, misuses and problems of existing offline currencies.
Like me.

If this is so, I'm in. If not...

Kind regards
Michael

[FreeMoney]

Hi Bruce,

I think you're catching on....    :-)

Seems so. But maybe not the way you and me want to...

After all, when you were born, did your government give you some Starter Money...?    I doubt it.   Unless you are a citizen of UAE.

So, when you were born, you immediately stood up, cut the cord and went away earning money for your clothes, food, pampers, pacifier, cradle, medical checkups etc.?!? Wow!

Sorry, of all bad arguments this is the worst.
Think again and then thank your parents for your personal Starter Money!

It's not about necessary to "start out" with with some...

Yes, IMHO it is essential that every new bitcoin user gets at least a little starter kit to spend.
And having fun doing so.
And keep using Bitcoin.
And spread the word.

@nelisky:
I'm talking about starting with Bitcoin.
I don't have a problem with best equipped people mining lots of BTC all day long (as long as they don't hoarding it).
I have a problem with these people don't granting newcomers even a few welcome bitcoins because these don't use/own the latest equipment. This is short-sighted and counterproductive. Finally this attitude will repel interested low-tech users. Bitcoin will then be used only by the technical avantgarde (maybe 5% of internet users world wide). If this is what you want...

I hope that the majority of registered bitcoin users is searching for an alternative money system,
for the possibility to spend money the easy way for music, software, blogs, goods etc. (and Bitcoin IS easy!)
and last but not least for avoiding most of the errors, misuses and problems of existing offline currencies.
Like me.

If this is so, I'm in. If not...

Kind regards
Michael

So, I guess you should ask your mom for some coins.

[grondilu]

Yes, IMHO it is essential that every new bitcoin user gets at least a little starter kit to spend.
And having fun doing so.
And keep using Bitcoin.
And spread the word.

WTF ?!  What's preventing him from just BUYING some ?

For me you sound just as if you were willing to have some stuff for nothing.

Bitcoin is a money.  It doesn't come with a free beer.

Edit.
I'm sorry to say that, but this whole speech about "it would be more fair if we give everyone a same amount for starting", smells so much like communism, I can't help saying it loud.  Yes, it seems to me it is just a way to put some socialist ideas about money.

Cryptocurrencies are like gold.  Socialists don't like them.  Because they can't control it.  Because they can't steal it "to the rich to give to the poor".  They think it's "unfair".

Let's imagine we can distribute a same part of the 21 millions bitcoins for everyone in the world.  Say, 7 billions humans.  That will be 0.003 BTC.  Ok, everything is fine and fair, now, hum ?  For how long ?  What to do with every new born child after that, hum ?  And after some time, when some people will just spend their bitcoins and return to nothing, while some others will just hoard bitcoins, you'll have the same inequalities you were complaining about.  So what was you point ?  You were happy to create a fair and equal world during a few days, a few weeks maybe ?  This is stupid.

[FreeMoney]

You should give out your coins to strangers. I'll keep mine for myself, my family, and my friends.

[FreeMoney]

Also you should copy your post to Bernanke, he's into this sort of thing.

edit: not the "give to everyone" aspect. But if you want to create the coins out of air, he might have some tips.