Bitcoin Forum

I see this matter as an ever growing serious issue with laws and regulations increasing / looming.
We are going to have to confront this issue at some point..

Either you are willing to compromise and work with authorities or you are going to have to get ready for a battle !

What side will you be on people ?

Oh and i vote "Work Together" because i think it's what we need to do to get a currency used / adopted.

See my post in the thread on "the rise and rise of monero".

Crypto has no reason to exist inside a legal system and is even outright dangerous as a tool to oppress people and have governments steal people even more.

There is not a single reason to desire "crypto adoption" in that case.  On the contrary.  If crypto could go away it would be much better in that case.

believe it or not we are living in a society and as a citizen you can't hide from the law and think you are above it just because you are using a cryptocurrency.
they need to be regulated.

although to answer OP i say things need to be done right. sometimes regulations aren't all good, sometimes they are too restrictive that will cause businesses to stay away from cryptocurrencies just because of these restrictions.
so as long as our privacy is not completely compromised and we aren't forced to do some crazy stuff just to use them i am for it.

I agree with BitcoinHodler point of view.

Well, I think one can perfectly well live in a society without state and law, but only on a contractual basis.  But that's a political opinion, that must sound as strange today as the statement that one could live in a society without a king sounded in the middle ages.

However, that is not the gist of the discussion.  If you think that one should live in a society with state and law, then *there is not a single use case for crypto currencies*.

Because the fundamental principle of a crypto currency is distributed, open trustlessness.  It is the need for this trustlessness which brings all the hassle of it.  If there is state and law, there is a central authority which should have might over everything.  That is in fundamental contradiction with distributed trustlessness.

It is fundamentally impossible to have a "regulated crypto currency" that is at the same time, not totally degenerated into a fiat currency.  Because in order to be regulated, it needs to be traceable, confiscable, stoppable and reversible, by a central authority, something that is totally orthogonal to its conception.  Of course it is possible to alter a cryptocurrency to the point of being regulated, but then it doesn't need to be "crypto" any more.  It is then a hassle to take all that crypto blockchain peer-to-peer stuff with it.  Normal bank computer fiat works 1000 times better for the same purpose.

So yes, maybe money needs/will be regulated.  But then it is useless to have crypto money.  That's my point.

Each time this discussion comes up, people tell me that "you cannot fight the state and law".  But my question is then: why would you want crypto currencies to be adopted in the first place ?  What do they have to offer over fiat ?  My answer is: "nothing but trouble".
What's your answer to the question "what have regulated and hence centralized, traced, cryptocurrencies to offer over regular fiat ?"

Both will and should happen.

Indeed, probably the realistic solution is that states are simply overwhelmed by crypto, try to regulate some aspects of it, but have to give up under the pressure of their populations, a bit like the internet is half regulated, but still allows for much more free speech than centralized, censored media were "back then".  That said, money is a much much more ticklish affair for states than free speech.  They're essentially in it for the money, and free speech was only a nuisance  (even though free speech is sliding back to dark ages  in many "free" places nevertheless), while taking money is their core business.

I agree.

You can't expect that people would accept only one idea.

The point is that if "crypto should work together with gov" then I don't see the point for crypto.  Anyone can explain to me what's the point of crypto, if it isn't to get back economic freedom states took away ?

Because if crypto is fully legal, then anything you can do with crypto, can just as well be done with fiat, right ?  So what's the point of the hassle of crypto over fiat then ?

We should work with them if possible, and fight them only if necessary

I chose to cooperate. We can't forever be underground players, we need to work together in public, and the answer is partnered with gov. Sometimes we continue to discuss the complexities of regulation will emerge, and it would greatly hinder the development of our business in cryptocurrency (altcoin). But it was comparable to impact of facility management of public business.

If the government is comfortable at this point, we need a bit of challenges and obstacles. Our revenues will be slightly reduced, but gov will provide accommodation excess.

I will read more of the feedback later but i seen the first two comments.

@BitcoinHodler
Agreed, that is pretty much what i have been trying to say for ages.
I would love to have a 100% lawless currency but i don't see it getting traction and getting adopted / used world wide.
We need to be realistic here guys.

So far i see 4 votes for law and 5 for Fight.
More than anything i wanted to bring up this issue because it's only going to be a growing matter we need to start thinking about.. the sooner the better.
For the sake of all your investments etc you all need to think long and hard what this is and where it's going.

I could post a huge list of incidents were law is encroaching on our crypto scene already guys.
Ripple was fined by FiNCEN and tax guidelines were issued years ago for example.
So this is not some fantastic crazy conspiracy we are talking about here.

In other words i am more concerned with the poll result and what you all think and to get you talking than anything.
Feel free to comment and vote guys.. i am really curious to see the overall stats on the POLL.

If you voted Fight then why are you using Coinbase, Cryptsy, Poloniex and countless other Exchanges ?
You can't be losing the fight and say you are winning people.

Funny how i am the one saying work together all the time for years..
While i am one of the few who left Cryptsy when they added the user account AML shit.
I am not "verified" on any crypto crap service.

How many of you are while simultaneously chanting "NO Laws!" and "Free Market" ?

Put your money where your mouth is .

You shouldn't, of course.

You should obtain crypto by selling goods and services.  And use crypto to buy goods and services.  That was the idea, wasn't it ?  

Of course, with an anonymous coin, you may "speed up" your acquisition of crypto by having a one-time buy of some coins, if you want to get started on the "buying" side, and not on the "selling" side.  But there's in principle no point in having (centralized) exchanges.

With a traceable coin such as bitcoin, you must be outright crazy to buy it on an exchange...

But everybody in the "gov" camp is avoiding the question: if you want to be law-abiding, why are you in crypto currencies in the first place ? What good is a crypto currency that is fully law abiding have over fiat ???  What can you do with such a crypto that you can't with fiat ?


(because if you can't do it with fiat, it is because there's a rule against it for some reason... That rule should then sooner or later also apply to law-abiding crypto)

The thing is, no one cares because the govt is a joke and seems to not give a shit anyways.  Look whats happening.. and nothing is being done. So why bother worrying about them?

govt authorities will eventually crush alts unless they start to behave a little or remain under the radar.

swing your dicks around by all means with tough statements but 98% of users would run away crying if they came down hard on them.

the ico shit probably qualifies as securities fraud and will be hammered eventually.

@European Central Bank
Agreed.

The warning signs are also ignored no matter how many times they are outlined.
Like what ?

http://i65.tinypic.com/35d2536.jpg

And what i also have tried to point out is that the profiteers are at risk.
If say Monero was essentially blacklisted across any govt *compliant* exchanges / services we could see a massive price crash.
And who is going to dump first ? King risto and the other backers and their good buddy exchange staff friends.
Then the public will hear.. oh we have "Network Problems" as they fumble over themselves to dump ASAP.

True crypto shouldn't even be on exchanges in the first place.

You can measure the "true value" of a crypto when it would be absent from any exchange.  Because that "true value" would be the Fisher's formula sustained price of its usage as a currency, where it is used to buy and sell goods and services.   Close down all centralized exchanges, and you'd measure the true market cap of crypto: it would be infinitesimal.  Maybe bitcoin would reach $10, if it even did.  Monero would be quite below the $1 line.  But it is their true "currency" value.

All the rest of the current market cap is greater-fool game.

That would be the best thing that could happen to crypto.  I hope that the Chinese government confiscates all crypto on the Chinese exchanges.  That would put an end to this greater-fool game, and make crypto grassroots again.

I agree Dino maybe then we would see a real push towards adoption.
Everyone is waiting for some other person to get the coins adopted.
Such as any coin ANN topic when the users bitch and moan about a road map to get it used etc.
That is THE USERS JOB !
The dev makes the coin and all of you are SUPPOSE to use it !
How many supporters use their coins ?
The least they could so is gamble with them or something.
Maybe use it for donations on a web site etc.
Get off your ass's.

I have tried to point out some glaring issues and what bugs me is most simply deny there is even any issue at all.

THAT ..is what pisses me off !

I seen one guy comment today, "Well we are still doing this stuff still"
You are also ignoring the signs problems are looming and doing nothing to deal with it.
I would expect at the very lest a discussion forum on coins would be talking about the tough issues.
Regardless of where you stand on them.

I'd love to jam my opinion down everyone's throat.. i am a loud mouth here in case you didn't notice ;)
More importantly i want to be provocative and hopefully interesting in a sea of boring.
I want to see people take the first step in acknowledging issues so we can figure out how to improve things.
If your not moving forward your going backwards.

What i have said since 2013 in regards to crypto regulations is if we do nothing we will for sure end up with Reg's we don't like or want.
It behooves us to take the initiative to be apart of the result that is coming sooner or later.

This is normal, because as of now, it is a greater-fool game.  So everyone is waiting for greater fools to join in !  This is how I understand this call for "adoption": send us more and greater fools, so that "the price goes up and I can make some benefit".  One day, we will run out of greater fools of course.

However, I fail to see the need for adoption, if it is to just do all the work to build another fiat for government (where I understand by "government", not just the public political figures, but the "powers that be" including the Soros-type deciders that tell government what laws to vote).

If the idea is to abide to what the powers that be want, just use their stuff, no ?


The actual sad news is that crypto is simply not used much as a currency, and in those cases where it is used, fiat can just as well be used, unless one needs "illegal" aspects.    Crypto is by far mainly a greater-fool game, in which centralized exchanges play a major role.  But the real usage of crypto, which is the one that is not affected by the existence or not of exchanges, is minuscule.  Anon or not.  And without anon, even totally useless, because exposed to legality.  And when it is exposed to legality, it can be done with fiat too.

I think they can work with government because it is alternative or supplement of bitcoin. You know altcoins can be good like ethereum, ripple or monero. No need to fight with gov, cooperation is win-win, why not?

You have a good observation,but the supply is limited and even fiat are being traded it would have been easy if mining is easy and supply is unlimited,we just need a certain regulation for these altcoins to exist,it could start here on Bitcointalk if new dev will first show a proof that he can sustain his coin development.

I think neither is required, you can't fight government and win also there is no need to be friend with them because what they want is control and being their friend means you will be doing their bidden. so staying away from them and adapting to their function is the best

i think government given up already on crypto, they only care to regulate bitcoin, stuff like monero zcash and all those zero-proof super anonymous coins, are impossible to deal with, they are made for privacy, the government can only try to incentivate regulation by offering a service that let deposit your anonymous coins, but who would use that?
and btw not all anonymity is bad, it's not always like that you want to hidden something if you want anonimity, some just want more privacy

Well, I think you can't "stay away and adapt to their function".  If you adapt to their function, then you don't stay away.  If however, you mean, "take into account their strategies", then you're right of course.  The first rule in warfare is to know your enemy. (the second is to know yourself)

That's more or less the practical hope: that they are simply overwhelmed, and when they try to regulate, the ghost is already out of the box.  But I wouldn't be too sure: stealing is the government's core business, and taking their control of monetary flows away is hitting them in their core.  This will be harder than the fight for freedom of speech.  Economic freedom is hurting them in there core.  They won't let that go so easily.

I don't think some of you get the intention of law.
We can see crystal clear right now it is there for YOU.
All of you trying to make money doing this.
The chief reason for the laws to exist is outlined in the AML law.

I will post this yet AGAIN because you all STILL don't get it..


Now what in the fuck does that say ? do i have to spend half an hour putting it in bold with italics and giant font or what ?
Can you chucklefuck's read ?

You people are fucking exhausting.  ::)

Do i have to take what that quote says then spell it out for idiots ?

What may not be obvious is that i am not saying we need laws to stop scam coins from being made.
I am saying it would be good to at least at the bare minimum have some laws out there that hammer the worst of them AFTER they are made.

Common sense tells us it's not practical to have a legal filter of sorts for coin creation etc.
Simply because of the logistics and chance of exploitation and the ever increasing tech world advancements.
Who would and COULD Police new coins ?
I don't think anyone in the govt is going to try doing that because it's simply too much of a messy hassle.
..yet some of you are commenting here like that is what is proposed.

You guys like being ripped off ?
Fine then shut your fucking mouth when it happens.
I don't want hear any calls for this forum or the lawyers or FBI / Police etc to hunt down people or services that burn you cocky little naive ass's.

Want a "no laws" Free Market ?
Then shut the fuck up when your stupid Investard ass's get GOX'd or Cryptsy'd.

Chances are both of those two would have been caught far sooner before they even had a chance to run for it had there been proper laws in place with a legal framework that demand transparency and accountability.

Want to argue about that ?
You can't..
Because both had claimed hackers stole their coins and STILL stayed open operating for a year or two AFTER they claimed they were robbed. (BigVern said he did not know who to report the hack etc to)
So..
if there was at least basic oversight the Fed's etc could have spotted this glaring problem and the users could have gotten a fair chance at getting their money back etc.

Paul Vernon fed all of you lies for about 1.5 years saying everything was fine and BitJohn had posted a blog post saying we don't run a fractional-reserve like GOX did and we have bullet proof Cold storage etc.
If any of those claims were investigated a year or two earlier they would have been caught red handed sitting on US soil etc.
At the EXACT time Vern's wife got a fur coat, 100k ring and a million dollar mansion and dumb fuck from GOX was buying a bed for 38k and claiming hackers stole a few hundred thousand BTC.

But you enjoy your little "Free Market" guys.. you reap what you sow Investards.

And no neither burned me because i am smarter than you.
I seen massive hardcore red-flags galore when i started Crypto about GOX in mid-2013..
I seen tons of them as time went on with Cryptsy and got out way ahead of time
Far before the FUD babies clued in.. because i am smarter than you kidiots here.

Note: Shitcointalk has no age requirement.
See school photos posted here of the BlockNET kids having a water balloon fight in their school yard or the picture where the chubby little shits were eating in their school cafeteria..
Yup the same BlockNET brats who suckered you dumb fucks into giving these little kids 1 MILLION DOLLARS in ICO BTC money.

Go make it rain on toddlers fer teh ROI's Investard's.. free market yo ! NO LAWS bruh !!111
Just don't make me sit there listening to you chucklefuck's whining your little idiot ass's off after you get burned.

OMG CALL THE COPS I DUN INVESTARDED MYSELFS !!!!11

oh and i know damn well these retarded brats didn't make it past 1 sentence of this rant.. they are disabled high on Ritalin with ADD.. which is WHY they are getting burned.

OMG USE DUE DILIGENCE BRUH

Yup and.. that would require READING wouldn't it ? ROFL  :D

I think *you* don't get the intention of the law: to make the state almighty and capable of printing as much money as it desires, to take all possessions of all citizens it desires.  If the state allows money it doesn't control to exist, it loses this capacity, so sooner or later, such money will be against the law, or such money will be put under total control of the state.

So crypto will become fiat, or will be outlawed.