Bitcoin Forum

The bigger idea of Bitcoin is that it will challenge the corruption of central banks and destroy the system that keep the masses poor while passing free printed money to themselves and their banks. Problem is I don't see Bitcoin ever being mass adopted. What I do see is the very rich and often corrupt (Chinese officials for example) using it to shelter their money. Bitcoin will sadly end up being the elites version of prepping, the average man in the street won't be holding Bitcoin but their own dicks come the economic collapse that is coming.

In short Bitcoin will help many of the super rich become richer...that's all.

Yes just like fiat money it by design. Akes the rich richer and the poor poorer.

then what are you doing here?
why did you create a topic on a bitcoin forum 4 months ago, to join this corrupt currency?
are you rich or elite?

Normal people don't even know about bitcoin and in past when bitcoin was first developed, few tech gigs mined bitcoin for fun and some of them are already rich by now. Talking about poor people yes they may not have enough money to buy bitcoin right now because of high price but there are many examples of poor people who have bought bitcoin during 2009-2010 and became rich by now. So i don't agree with your statement OP.

Unfortunately I'll have to agree with you here. The current state of bitcoin basically means that the rich becomes richer. Bitcoin unfortunately is being used for illegal activities, especially money laundering. There is really no use for me to deny that, even as a die-hard bitcoin fan.

However, that does not mean that we as a community cannot make bitcoin for the better.

Projects that provide banking via bitcoin to the unbanked is an example of stepping towards better bitcoin usage in my opinion.

And although I agree with you on the front that bitcoin is used for sheltering dirty money, i do believe that bitcoin will be mass adopted, once fiat dies.

That's true. Bitcoin is much used by the elite community to save their earning and escape taxation. But with the poor, they strive hard for a better earning. Even now the common man who prefer bitcoin are just using it for their regular bills. Holding is not found effective with common man, just holds a small amount for emergency.

Taxation is what makes the elite rich.  Since the first kings.  Only very few people become rich by their merits.  Most rich people become rich because of state money, state contracts, etc... Taxes is stealing from the poor to give to the rich, while telling the poor that it is the opposite and distributing some cookies.  The best way to become rich is to have a company that delivers to the state and some lobbying.

But with a transparent ledger revealing all of your transactions to the world, graved in stone, you must be a hell of an idiot thinking that you can hide from taxes using bitcoin.  This is because the government hasn't yet caught up.  Once they do full ledger analysis, all those trying to hide on a transparent ledger will be seriously disappointed about the privacy lack of bitcoin.

What is especially terrible with bitcoin is the finite amount of it, making it deflationary in the long term.  This allows entities that can print fiat at will, to obtain a large stash of it "for nothing", like they do with gold, and then, being a "free whale", manipulate the thing like hell, as a pump of value from the "innocent speculator" to the "manipulating whale" (central bank).   Whenever central banks will start buying bitcoin (with freshly printed fiat), people will cheer on the forum, and not see that this is the ultimate end of bitcoin as a free (as in freedom) currency.

It's true. I had to show my secret decoder ring before I was allowed to download the software to mine bitcoins!

Less sarcastic version: What is Bitcoin's barrier to entry? If average people choose not to use Bitcoin, and Bitcoin can "shelter money" as the OP suggests, isn't the average person just shooting himself in the foot?

On a side note: You could erase all money in the world and evenly distribute X amount of new money to every person on the planet, and before long I imagine it would end up looking very much like the Pareto principle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle#In_economics

Actually bitcoin is not designed for only elite people, it was created to be used by all of us, and for poor people it can become an opportunity to earn more money for them, so actually it was design for all people it just depends on how the people used bitcoin

For now it looks true but some factor make it so. I expect a  more internet world sooner, where internet is everywhere in the world. I expect also government creating there own cryptocurrency where that can control and invest into bitcoin, then more online store for daily exchange of bitcoin but by then bitcoin would have hit a high value

This is an interesting point. And it's definitely true that bitcoin can make the rich become richer, it's not because it's bitcoin. It's because to make money you gotta have money. Any investment can make the rich richer because they have more money to use to leverage the upside potential of the investment.

The bigger question might be: Is bitcoin something that the average man can't obtain? I'd argue No. The average man can obtain bitcoin, they just need to know that it exists and have the will to just buy some or earn some. It doesn't have to be 100s of coins, most people don't have that now because they missed out on the earliest period of access and adoption. Also, and argument could be made that most of the people that did benefit from those early mining or Bitcoin at less than $10 days were the "average man" who was more interested in technology innovation over amassing a fortune.

Yes. I forgot about tax evasion as well.

The fact is that bitcoin can be used for good. For example the skilled professional in poor countries are probably severely underpaid. They can make a much better iving online by connecting to other employers all over the world.

But when employers are paying them, they don't know whether they are going to be getting a legitimate payment from the employer or not. If they don't know their employer well, they can get charged back easily on paypal or other reversible means.

Then there are the fees. The fees are ridiculous on most fiat money transfer services.

That's where bitcoin can help. However the problem is that not much people in developing countries even know that bitcoin exists.

Tax evasion is a good thing, but bitcoin is not well designed for that.  Tax evasion (state theft evasion) is one of those niche applications of crypto.  The one you mention: hindrance to free trade of labor, too.  Crypto can go there where fiat is difficult to use.

Even if the rich Chinese officials use it to hoard their ill-gotten wealth, there is some redistribution of wealth which has taken place. Most of the early adopters are not super rich. When the corrupt pile their money into Bitcoin, wealth is transferred from them to early adopters.

A handful of people have become rich but very few, what you mean is some people have made like a million dollars or two. That buys a nice car and a small apartment in major cities of the world IF that.....that's not the real global rich I'm talking about. Buts sure it's helps us guys involved in it in more modest ways....but my point is we are a small group, not the masses.

This is an interesting point. And it's definitely true that bitcoin can make the rich become richer, it's not because it's bitcoin. It's because to make money you gotta have money. Any investment can make the rich richer because they have more money to use to leverage the upside potential of the investment.

The bigger question might be: Is bitcoin something that the average man can't obtain? I'd argue No. The average man can obtain bitcoin, they just need to know that it exists and have the will to just buy some or earn some. It doesn't have to be 100s of coins, most people don't have that now because they missed out on the earliest period of access and adoption. Also, and argument could be made that most of the people that did benefit from those early mining or Bitcoin at less than $10 days were the "average man" who was more interested in technology innovation over amassing a fortune.

To make money, you need money. But it is not sufficient. You need to have enough belief in Bitcoin to invest in it.
The average man, who had realized the potential of Bitcoin, could have scraped together a few 100 $ a few years back. That would have given him rich dividends.

The question reminds me of a story and I hope op will understand it along with others. A person came outside a village and saw a saint and asked what kind of people live here, the Saint replied what you think jealous angry maybe he replied saint nodded in approval, another man came same question same reply by saint, the man said happy and prosperous then the same live in. Morale is what your perceive is what you believe. There are so many I know who got rich thanks to Bitcoins, and they were not elite. The so called rich are yet to come in Bitcoins directly. People are getting rich because they are timing it well, earning for it. Look around so many of us earned Bitcoins through hard work and that's what you need to do.

If the price continues to rise and having in mind the fact that the largest amount of Bitcoins is held by relatively small number of users that leads to the conclusion that Bitcoin already is elite currency. But still I don't like to see it this way and still hope that it will be widely spread among ordinary people who could have benefits of Bitcoin.

Everybody is free to buy Bitcoin. Maybe your religion or government is not allowing it, but you could still get some and this will never change. The day that Bitcoin has anything to say as to who can use it, is the day Bitcoin dies. Bitcoin might not be the solution to every problem, but it is a huge improvement over what we have now. All the information you need is out there, so if somebody doesn't use Bitcoin it's their own fault.

It must be confirmed that officials use bitcoin to wash money. They use it to hide the amount of money they have corrupted, which is one of the reasons why bitcoin is strongly accepted in China. That's a bad thing, I hate corrupt people and the consequences they cause. Most seriously, bitcoin can be ruined if this behavior happens continuously. Civilians are unaware of the bitcoin, so there are very few who use it, officials and the rich are the main users, and they use it for corruption.

i'm not with what you said, bitcoin is helping indeed the poor, unless you think that they are the one puping and helping the rich get even more richer

what i think is the opposite, the rich are the oen that buy and play against other rich people, while the poorer are take advantage of this by making easy profit

unlike in the fiat money where the rich are literally becoming more richer because they get the money from the poorer, i'm talking about the politician which are overpaid for example

Yeah but think about the positives that bitcoin provide.

-Anonymous transactions
-Instant transactions throughout the globe, no matter where you are
-Essentially no fees, except for less than a dollar in miner fees, which doesn't increase as your transaction amount goes up
-Anyone that has internet can access it.

Think about how people can save big on transferring money just to relatives worldwide.

Just average people that do not have much wealth.

I'm not in any way knocking Bitcoin, if everyone in the world used it I would be a happy man. My point is the big meme for Bitcoin was the end of printed money and a rebalancing of economic disparity etc. My point is in reality it's more likely it will end up serving to widen the wealth and technologically poor gap if anything. Dont forget half the world doesn't have the Internet.


Anecdotal points about some making money isn't the point, I'm talking big picture of reality.


In my opinion Bitcoin will never be used by the masses, it will be a plaything for the richer elite.

I'm talking without facts but I almost guarantee the average joe poor guy in say America isn't going to use Bitcoin anytime soon....generally speaking.

What is funny in this whole discussion, is the idea that one "becomes rich with bitcoin".  How does one become rich with bitcoin ?  By selling it to a greater fool.  If bitcoin were a CURRENCY, it would be simply an intermediate asset that helped a trade.  But if bitcoin is a speculative greater-fool asset, then you can become rich with it.

How ?

1) by being an early adopter.  That means, by having been a geek at the right moment with the right information.  If these people become the new elite, that's just replacing an elite with another one (Winkelvoss brothers ?).

2) by trading with inside information (when you can manipulate markets).  You can only win in a market for sure, if you have information others don't.  The poor guy doesn't.  If he starts trading bitcoin, he will just pump his money into those that have information.

So bitcoin as a vehicle to become rich through seigniorage (early adopters), or inside information (market manipulators) is just going to make a new elite, partially the old elite btw, and a few new bourgeois, who know how to play best the greater-fool game.

It is not going to relieve poverty problems in Africa, for instance.  

Sending your transaction in an open ledger to be seen by the whole world and graved in stone for ever, is not exactly what I would call "anonymous"  :D

Bitcoin's somewhat naive ledger tech is way, way, way worse concerning privacy than fiat.  With fiat, only your bank knows, and justice, if they ask.  With bitcoin, everyone knows.  And block chain analysis WILL tie your address to your identity.  The information is propagated on the chain, and more and more of it is available.

I dont entirely agree with this.
Okay it is really expensive now and poor people cannot afford it anymore.
But what about those who are beta users and still holds it up until now.
They aint rich people, actually they are the one who hoped it could rise like this.
Even those who risked their money when bitcoin was so unstable and risk it even more besides the truth that it fell down to a very low price.
Courageous people will benefit from it. Not really the rich ones.

I have to respect your opinion but I'm pretty sure bitcoin will be for everyone, those who like to be rich and those rich who want to be richer.
Bitcoin offers equal opportunity and if you believe it will only make the rich richer, how would you describe those early adopters who are already millionaires or billionaires now.

Think about that, that is a complex example and to be realistic, bitcoin will not eliminate the corrupt central bank as no way it can compete with fiat.

Two major problems with Bitcoin that means it won't go mainstream is.

1. Not scalable so will never be a viable payment system for billions of people.

2. People might use some middle man but I can't see people using a system where if you make a mistake sending money you can't retrieve it. Imagine some ones parents accidentally sending their life's savings because they got a decimal point wrong.


I don't see my points as a discussion, they are facts. It's just interesting the reality is different from the vision and belief about Bitcoin.

bitcoin may be doing this somehow but it is not the main idea of it.

care to explain "WHY" you think it will never be mass adopted?

very rich and corrupt people have lots of money, and for that they are using the stable priced Gold or Fiat not something that is way too volatile.
if you invest 100 million dollars in bitcoin and price goes from $1250 to $1200 you will lose 4 million dollars. simple and fast.

again you are just making an statement without any explanation of "WHY"!

bitcoin is not supposed to make you rich!
and from an investment standpoint, there is always only a few handful of people who get rich but nobody is preventing others from doing the same as them.

I, as a regular Joe, invested in bitcoin back when it was $200 about 2 or 3 years ago and in that time I have made 525% profit. nobody forced me or prevented me from doing that.
am I rich and/or corrupt?!!

if I had bought 1BTC I could make ~$1000 profit and if had bought 100BTC I could have made ~$100,000 profit and so on.

I don't agreed that bitcoin will help many of the elite people, actually from 2009 those poor people who believed in bitcoin and continue working it up to the present time they are now rich because of Bitcoin. But I agreed that bitcoin can change the corruption of central banks and destroy the system too because of the decentralization which bitcoin has.

I fully agree with you.  Single block chain (transaction-ledger) based crypto is not scalable.  If, say, all Germans pay their coffee every morning with bitcoin, that would mean, about 80 million transactions in a few hours.  It would mean the need to grow the chain by about 20 GB every morning.  At bitcoin's pace (10 minute blocks) that would mean 200 MB blocks.  And this, just to have the Germans drink their morning coffee.  If they also pay for their bread, we double.  Simply not feasible in the next two decades.  Add the Chinese and you see the problem.

When you use middle men, I don't see in what way they would be different from current banking.  I would rather trust current banks (even though I'm politically an anarchist) who have tens of years of experience, rather than "a guy on the internet".  There's no reason "a guy on the internet" will be more honest, professional and to be trusted, than a local bank office.

It is true that bitcoin will probably benefit the elite more than the average Joe.

That's something that we should work towards. Making sure that we are spreading the word about bitcoin and letting our family members and friends know about the amazing things you can achieve with the bitcoin network.

This isn't a college essay so stop with the attitude I haven't given some airtight academic augment with references and stats. But most of what I said, like bitcoins problems and generally lack of mass adoption etc are known facts as of now. And like I said anecdotes of you or some guy making enough to buy a boat and a sports car doesn't make for an argument, it makes you look stupid.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=12156.0     havent u heard  ,were going to be the new elite, gentlemen .   on a serious level, u bet  ya  that the elite will be parking there assets into btc.  my plan is to collect as much as i can before this happens.  were all just going to be along for the ride  when big money rolls in.

Which is why my point is worth considering as there is a definite opportunity for the little guy to ride of the coat tails if big money dives into Bitcoin In a desperate rush. if they ever approve an ETH it will rocket the price. Could be an incredible trade too, ride up a massive peak and sell out into something more tangible like gold leaving some of the elite holding the biggest bags you could imagine! Haha

Joe is not exactly tech savy, but improves. Ten years ago nobody carried a quadcore computing device around the landscape everywhere he goes. Now they diddle Angry Birds on these.
Beeing elite comes along owning some skills at least.

The thread from the powers in control are targetting the hashrate. Investments into mining equipment had been the improved Joe's job utilizing wood and duct tape and brazing and soldering. This scene changed and that imposes a thread. Concentration and pure monopoly.

that is right. OP sees many rich people use bitcoin because they can see the advantages, but not all the poor ones do not see it yet. however, I saw some people of my country was not rich when they was into bitcoin, and when they got it, they now can earn some bitcoins a month. so it's just the matter how smart we take the advantages.

That can’t possibly be the case. The big picture for someone is completely different for another one. Can you find somewhere in the original paper of Nakamoto something like that ? You claim that poor people will not be saved by bitcoin but only rich ones. Have you ever thought that about 2/3 of world wide people are without bank status? How these people can accept or send money (apart from person to person cash)? Bitcoin gave anyone this opportunity without the need of any bank. On the other side bitcoin is a currency and a commodity like as gold. Does any of these two is free somewhere in the world?

bitcoin will just make the so called elite more rich even without understanding what bitcoin really is  ::)

I do not think that only the elite will take benefits of Bitcoin.  I agree Bitcoin can make rich people richer because they have money but poor people with skills can have the benefits what this rich people benefits from Bitcoin. And best of it  this poor people that have skills and faith in Bitcoin does not need to spend an enormous amount of money.  They can even get Bitcoin through their skills.  Do not blame rich people being richer with Bitcoin, blame ourselves of being too lazy and too dull to not be able to take advantage of what Bitcoin offers.

Not all elites will be rich. They have the advantage since they the capital to purchase more bitcoin. But not all elites trust bitcoin and cryptocurrency since they are all very tied up to fiat currency and traditional business. This is the reason that will tell us that not all elites are into bitcoin. Thus speaking of which we also have a big chance to be rich with bitcoin all we need is just to hold and collect bitcoins and sell them when their price is very high.

Not all elite will take their risk in putting their money in bitcoin.
And we, the not elites, will can be rich even as long as we collect bitcoin and save it, and wait until value peaks high.

Yeah, for the elite who jumped into the world of bitcoin they can get richer because they has a large capital. But like me who are not elite keep using bitcoin for investment even with small capital. My goal use bitcoin is not to seek wealth as much as possible. Only for the use of participating in bitcoin because in this digital era using bitcoin is a trend. But it is possible, although only using a small capital to acquire more wealth just takes time. Thank you

But making riches even richer is what everyone needs.

If the super rich people and super poor people hadn't existed, everybody would have been average people with average income/wealth.

If everyone had the same wealth, nobody would wanna work.

This explains the situation very well:

http://notquant.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/inspirational_Redistribution.jpg

 ;D

Then, i am so glad to see that I am part of the Elite since i use bitcoin. I feel me very proud. If I could be included in the satoshi round table, then it will be just perfect. Anyway, bitcoin is still somewhat too "young" to see it adopted by the mass. Most of the ew technologies have not been the used by the mass the day one of their creation. I still believe bitcioin needs time to see it popular, and maybe a lot, maybe in 10 years or so. As we say, Rome was not build in 1 day. Patience brings the roses

Well yeah, I don't agree with the thought that bitcoin is an elite currency and only made the rich richer and out of reach of the poor, although it seems to develop in that way. There are normal people even the poor ones struggling and trying hard everyday to make ends meet. And despite bitcoin's high price, it's not impossible for common man to use it requires will and effort not a bunch of money.

indeed true, there's no such high requirements in entering or using of bitcoin, we just only need to do some research and learn on how to earn in bitcoin and use that amount to do trading or investing via btc. I'm not rich but I used it and lets my friends to know it so  I think bitcoin is for everyone. I just only happens that those elite have more advantage,for they can invest higher amount and take higher  than expected .

I truly agree with you.Bitcoin was created mainly as a decentralized currency.Bitcoin price is going high in rocket speed and still its only known to few sections of society.When all of the world comes to know about bitcoin, i guess bitcoin price would have reached millions.The rich would get more rich and poor would remain poor just starring at the rich.Its the unwritten rule of this world.

Totally agree. Recently only the elite has been gaining from Bitcoin. A bribe in transaction fees to fasten the transaction, delay and the volatility is making the poor poorer.

But it's a fact that the elite will definitely have the greater prowess to buy more bitcoins down with their fiat. How can the poor compete with them if they have unequal spending capabilities. It's still going to follow from the conventional fiat system if we don't bridge the gap.

I don't know if you can call them elite because I believe that those who become rich in bitcoin are the early adopters on it, so if you consider them elite then that fine with me. Maybe the elite people are those who have a lot of capital to put into bitcoin and hold them and dump as soon as they saw they are going to profit, in contrast to those early adopters that have bitcoin because they believe in it and not thinking of gaining or profiting from them. But since the price of bitcoin has sky rocketed since the beginning I guess they became rich today.

Care to explain why only the rich will benefit from Bitcoin, when everyone can buy even small quantities of Bitcoin? I know MANY average income

workers that owns some "Satoshi's" and they are not even earning $600 a month. The people who will hold their dicks in their hands, will be the

people with your attitude towards Bitcoin, and it's benefits for the poor. Blame yourself, when this thing goes to the Moon and you own no BTC

I will if you care to show me where I said 'only the rich will benefit from Bitcoin'.....

The simple reason why the elite will always have their way in any society is simply because they are exposed and educated to such movement. Even if we change from bitcoin to another form of currency, the elite will still have their way. How do a poor man who does not even know about how the internet works will know about bitcoin or which money does he have that will warrant him keeping some?

My point is not really to explain why or make a personal value judgement. My point is simply there has been since the beginning of Bitcoin generally an idea that Bitcoin will in various ways help society and could even end corruption especially in central banking that is understood by many to be the root cause of inequality in society due to practices that only serve banks and the elite via money printing etc. Now i'm not in the mood to argue that point, of course Bitcoin means more than one thing to many different people. BUT this has been a recurrent theme of Bitcoin and Satoshi himself clearly alluded to it with the reference to central bank money printing as a problem.

So with this as a common theme in Bitcoin my point is in reality Bitcoin might actually end up increasing wealth disparity generally....Like I said I make no value judgement on that, but the collective cognitive dissonance is you have to admit pretty interesting. 

The reason is not only lack of education. The main reason why the poor remain poor is the lack of seed capital. The poor simply do not have the opportunity to start a business or invest in bitcoin

Of course just like the fiat currencies, the elite have large chunks of fiat and are capable of buying and saving a lot of bitcoins. In a nutshell if we don't take care Bitcoin will become an elitist cryptocurrency just like several fiats.

No one is pushing that the bitcoin being mass adopted and it can be considered as a stock and if you invest in it ,it has its own risk and you might end up profiting in the long term,let me quote it this way,born poor is no ones fault but if you plan on dying poor then it is your own fault.

Like i said Bitcoin will not solve all problems, but with Bitcoin you get some advantages. The wealthy elite can't just print more money. Nobody can freeze my account. The Bitcoins are somewhat traceable, what can help against corruption. etc.
Another thing is that we can't just give up because they will win anyway, so why bother and even try. Well that attitude leads to nowhere, and if this is what people think, than it's no wonder the rich tell us that we want this. 

Here is the real truth in your words. Investing in bitcoin is always a risk and if lost, it is the fault of the investor. The prospect in the future is just forecasts and every user goes for it, at their own peril and risk.

You're wrong, there are no wealthy people holding lots of Bitcoin. The bitcoin wealth is spread pretty evenly among all users. LOL

http://www.valuewalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Winklevoss-Twins-1024x584.jpghttp://airportjournals.com/wp-content/uploads/0705011_7.jpghttps://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--EEKSYH4m--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_north,h_358,q_80,w_636/18bvvs39x60bcjpg.jpghttp://static6.uk.businessinsider.com/image/55d6f489bd86ef15008b4da9/the-former-ceo-of-bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-mark-karpeles-has-been-re-arrested.jpghttp://www.bitcoinfuturesguide.com/uploads/6/4/6/5/64656757/2517762_orig.jpghttp://insidebitcoins.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BarrySilbert-640.jpghttp://www.saltconference.com/speakers/image/9_novogratz_michael.pnghttps://exante.eu/media/uploads/2016/08/03/4.jpghttp://coinedbits.com/image/cache/catalog/coinedbits/satoshi_manofyear-500x500.jpg

What is the main reason of poverty?
Lack of education?
Deseasis?
Economy of the country?
Climate ?
You don't need to be elite to have a BTC, a decent work that can sustain you monthly is enough. There are banks that offers BTC. We're missing the point here, the poor stays poor, the rich got even richer. Of course the rich take the money from people to get rich. But still as I observe in the third world country, pulling down each other (crabmentality), curruption at its best ( not just the government ). We believe that Bitcoin will be the future of money, but no matter what will be the future of money when we lack diligence, perseverance, hard-work, faith and will we will remain poor. Of course the elite will be at the advantage in Bitcoin but thats the truth, they will always be save because they have the power. What I mean here is the poor won't change its state of the poor keep whining on things and don't do the work. We have an unfair world but don't let it be the reason to stay poor. We are all struggling and always dreaming of having a comfortable life. Bitcoin won't save you, nobody can save you, you're the one who's going to save yourself. There is a saying:
If you are born poor it's is not your fault, but if you die poor it's your fault.

So it means if the bitcoin will die in the future caused by the elite political and massive corruption will try to go to the bitcoin to save his money.

Or you're wanna to do it in this time?

I agree with you, not all elites are into bitcoin, some ‘elite’ or big money holder will not make their money into risk because some thinks that this will make their money at risk. And we, regular man or not elite can be rich in bitcoin like my quoted posted, all we need is to collect bitcoin and sell it  when their price is high.