Bitcoin Forum

For those who've missed it:

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013996.html

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/mining-manufacturer-blocking-segwit-benefit-asicboost/

Summary of the situation: Bitmain has been producing and mining with ASICs using an exploit that gives them a dramatic advantage over competing miners. This exploit is incompatible with Segwit, so Bitcoin Unlimited was created to gin up the appearance of public opposition to Core and place monopoly control over bitcoin mining and the protocol in the hands of Bitmain and associates.

The exploit also incentivizes miners to mine empty blocks, which has aggravated the TX bottleneck situation and contributed to high fees.

While they have been exposed, it is not clear to me that there is any reason they will be shut down in the near term. In other words a conspiracy has been unmasked, but not defeated.

ISSUE: ASICBOOST provides a ~30% mining advantage over non-ASICBOOST miners.

NEAR-TERM RISKS:
1. BitMain keeps mining empty blocks. TX fees remain elevated.
2. BU keeps blocking Segwit from reaching 95% consensus. TX capacity remains throttled.
3. By extension, the Lightning Network continues to be blocked/delayed/impaired insofar as SW provides the best implementation for it.

LONG-TERM RISKS:
1. Bitmain runs all opposition out of business and assumes monopoly control over mining.

COUNTERMEASURES:
1. Patent infringement? This is outside of the bitcoin communities' control, but one countermeasure is if Bitmain is infringing on the original ASICBOOST patent and it can be upheld in a Chinese court. I'm not optimistic here but it has to be listed as a possibility.
2. UASF for Segwit/Gregory Maxwell's countermeasures (see link above). A UASF introducing Segwit would force Bitmain to either mine BTC while abandoning their ASICBOOST exploit, or hardfork away with their own altcoin.
3. ? Other options?

LONG-TERM COUNTERMEASURE:
This episode has taken the issue of mining centralization from a relaxed discussion about future risks to bitcoin to an imminent crisis. BU was close to 50% hashrate in the weeks leading up to this expose. A craftier pair than Wu and Ver might pull off a coup next time. Long term no cryptocurrency can survive and thrive in an environment where monopoly control is threatened or possible.

At the same time I want to emphasize that a raw majority of miners did not join BU and should not be unfairly penalized for their actions. They've made tremendous investments in specialized hardware and should not be bankrupted in a rash reaction to this situation.

Fortunately, the ROI on bitcoin mining hardware is pretty short - less than a year from all I've seen. The means the Core development community can, after due process, provide a roadmap covering several years. One that leads back to decentralization of mining. Thus I urge Core to:

1. Provide a roadmap away from the current ASIC-based paradigm back to mining with desktop-based hardware, over a timeframe that allows the mining community to maintain profitability (without the pressure of Bitmain's advantage weighing on them, through SW deployment).

2. Formalize a public policy that such a decentralized mining paradigm will be maintained.  Either by altering algorithms or through other mitigating actions to defeat any ASIC or other specialized hardware implementation that significantly centralizes mining.

Just my 2 satoshis,
ebliever

Fully in agreement. We may have averted a real disaster for Bitcoin in the shape of BU, but the plans for the next coup have already been made public, and all the blocksize obsessives on the forums have started the cycle all over again.

The honest miners should not be penalised for maintaining their decorum faced with adversity, but the risk of mining centralisation is still too significant. A staged move away from SHA-2 hashing must happen sooner rather than later to mitigate the risk. Miners can take the opportunity to halt their development of mining ASICs, and concentrate on making the transition to CPU mining, there's no reason why they cannot still compete in the marketplace using their other marginal advantages, which will still exist after chaging the PoW algorithm.


Isn't this the same as point 1, though? If the Bitcoin developers write the code, that is the policy, and it couldn't be any more clear written as code. In cryptographic networks like Bitcoin, the code is the policy, the code is the law.


Further to this, it's possible that UASF might not even be needed. Bitmain's loss in hashrate share resulting from gmaxwell's neutering of ASIC Boost might be enough to force Bitmain's hand. Segwit signalling might rise to above 50% from removing ASIC Boost's viability, and 50% BIP acceptance has a tendency to move to 95% very quickly, it makes miners and pools nervous that they may start losing block solution races when 51% threshold is passed.

or blockstream can just admit that segwit isnt perfect by admitting that its 'fixes' are not guaranteed and that it does nothing to stop native spammers etc.

and for blockstream to reset their own snobbery and try to fix their own internal issues and try something the community can and will happily accept

however using PoW nukes, mandatory activations, fee discount bribes and deadlines, bypassing node consensus.. looks very desperate. they are too blind to ven ask why should they need to resort to such tactics..

Thanks for your own comments and insights. My last 2 points just distinguish between (1) making the fix to the current problem and (2) making it clear that similar actions will be taken in the future to prevent the problem from recurring.

(I'm a quality engineer, and this breakdown just reflects our habitual thinking as we write corrective action reports and answer a checklist of questions about countermeasures and preventing recurrence.)

within the recent Bitmain expose you only see blockstream? lol
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

So we are discussing an ASICBOOST exploit by BITMAIN and you point to BLOCKSTREAM?

Not only is this irrelevant, but block stream hires a MINORITY of core devs. What are you even on about dude?

IOTA gets around this centralisation problem by moving the PoW burden from miners and onto the users (PoW to make a transaction). Miners can't be a problem if they don't exist.

This would probably be far too big a change for Bitcoin going forward though.

Welcome to capitalism.
Why is this a big deal?

 
I did understand the difference.

Did you see what I mean when I said "the code is the policy". If the code is written in a way that equates to the policy, what is the purpose of writing public policy statements? The code is the most meaningful public policy statement there could be, written words in human language are essentially promises. Spoken promises can be broken, the programming logic cannot.

Hence, the code is a more valuable statement of intent than any written statement could ever be. I realise I'm talking down your vocation, but perhaps your skills would be better transferred to some other area as we move into a true cypher punk era. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I suspect cypher punk philosophy has the potential to propagate faster than many might predict.

Can't the exploit be fixed without Segwit getting activated?
This can be taken care of in the next upgrade, without getting into the Segwit vs BU debate.

Don't be so sure. Roger Ver is still a big whale and so is Jihad Wu itself. The bribing will continue and the propaganda war never ends, plus the miners that neutrally think segwit is not a good idea because they don't want to lower fees since it will give them less money.

Looks like it's a tie and BTC will remain as it is, unless UASF kicks in and I think it's not that easy.

LTC will get segwit for sure and BTC will still struggle, im buying more LTC right now.

"exploit" ... anyone is free to design their own ASIC... Given the nature of Bitcoin, I would say it would be wrong to enforce the patent and not let miners compete freely but that is for the courts to decide.

BU has nothing to do with this -- we simply need bigger blocks, this has been going back to classic, xt, etc... 1mb is BS, stop listening to core propaganda please.

is strange that the same ppl that use this shady tactics are the same that not only support BU but and every community toxic split attempt.
Their reasons is now very clear because and for and and for most ppl was a puzzle why they do it.
The reason is that Bitmain plan is to centralised mining.
Everyone that believe that Bitmain want big block is simple a stupid. They only to create a stall situation and nothing more. this is their plan and until now it works great.

Did you read the rest of the OP?

Capitalism thrives on a free market. There is a reason monopolies are prohibited by capitalist nations where feasible, and a monopoly is where things are headed at this point.

Granted, we can just say "There are a  thousand Alts out there, we'll just switch to one of them." And that would be a valid, free-market response to a miner hegemony taking control of bitcoin and squeezing bitcoin users with maximized fees. But that would create tremendous turmoil and financial losses by many bitcoin investors and supporters, negative press that would make Mt. Gox look like a jaywalking incident, and damage the whole cryptocurrency movement for years.

Oh hogwash. We need increased transaction capacity. We have SW and LN, and you BU shills have been fighting progress for all you are worth.

It's like listening to someone keep saying that we need a 2nd horse on the horse cart, when semi trucks with diesel engines are available.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63otrp/gregory_maxwell_major_asic_manufacturer_is/dfvwga4/

lets see what the maths really tells us


i would have expected antpool to have a block % of something in the 40's while having hash in the 30's if all this gmaxwell PoW propaganda was real
definitely not less than their hash%

oh well gmaxwell debunked.

kind of funny how many times gmaxwells announcement didnt name the pool and how many times gmaxwell uses the word "they could" rather then "they are"




..
just to let the script writers twist it into "its an attack, bomb them bomb them bomb them"

P.S
gotta laugh that when its an exploit.. he words it as exploiting [adambacks] hashcash.
but when its a bug he calls it an bitcoin proof of work oversight....

he is too far deep inside his bosses pocket

what propaganda you talk about now? Is not propaganda that a single Miner with the most hashrate attack the majority of bitcoin developers and propose a crap flaw code that twice crashed in two months only by a simple call script?
Is not propaganda that miners refuse to enable an over a year tested solution again from the majority of bitcoin developers?
and is propaganda everything else?
Look man. There are three types of ppl with your opinion. Payed shadow puppets, tech blind, or trolls. You can choose where you fit there.

this post is very clear to anyone that you not even understand what we talk about here.... :P what a crap
what has to do this with ASICBOOST???? Ver is You?

A monopoly is only bad when it is given unfair advantage via regulations and privileges made law by government.
When a monopoly is naturally formed, it is a product of free market.
Who can stop any miner from implementing the same "exploit" in their ASIC? Nobody. Is there a law against that? No. Then it's fair game.

No offense, but you don't seem to have great listening skills -- I just said (in the post you just quoted)  I'm NOT of the opinion we need BU necessarily -- its just one of many on chain scaling proposals.

Don't attack me that the miners aren't going for Segwit.  Here's some articles explaining why its not loved: http://bit.ly/2nBT4sN

There's no logical reason the community couldn't have agreed to simple block increase years ago, except for core propaganda.
We were all fooled but now is the time to wake up.

as i remember the first block size increase proposal for the "chief scientist" Gavin was 20mb! this is ridiculous and completely insane in tech term. How you think everyone will easy follow this crap and let bitcoin to exploit and become a bloatable unusable system?
The second proposal was from Hearn and with the hidden feauture of blocking specific ip transactions form bitcoin.
Yeah with this terms you cant no go anywhere in bitcoin world. If you need such "features" there is already paypal outhere

asicboost should be showing a 20-30% advantage not a minus% disadvantage

now show me your stats
dare ya!

Explain how a market can be free when a government prohibits some behaviour by some market participants (regular people) and not that of others (corporations).


Corporations pay no tax (and frequently get tax rebates for donating to "charities"), flout regulations, receive light-touch fines, and use their dominant position to force smaller competitors out of the market, or they use the precious government rules to "legally" buy up their small rivals with hostile takeovers. As well as 1001 other underhand tactics that abuse the so-called "legal safety net".

You don't understand what "free" means. There are no capitalist nations, it's all carefully crafted fascism, where the state and corporations act hand in hand.

yes but this advantage will show as their current hahsrate in the statics and not their hashrate and you manual calculate +30%.
if you want to proper calculate current mining hashrate you must remove 30% from it and then you can compare the blocks that create with the blocks that will original create with this -30% hashrate.

have you tried run FULL NODE ? I am and guess what it takes full week to sync with network this is 100GB if you start upgrading network how much space i will need in 10 years ?
TO get Visa dream you need 1000MB per block and about 370TB data.
Big blocks are death to p2p system once you can not validate send own blocks this is not p2p currency but some king centralized paypal. Not everybody have PC for 1000$+ to run full node.

Current sytuation with Bitmain just prooves how fucked central mining is. They block solutions to save own biggest intrest this is big shit. This will be trown on free market and free market will say to you that better is have centralized Etherum than greedy miners

Nope.  Satoshi never wrote about non-mining full nodes and I don't see any personal benefit to me why I should run one.

.....and there we have it.

R.I.P, jonald_fyookball, March 2, 2014, 07:09:01 AM - April 6, 2017, 5:03:53 PM


He advocated for big-blocks, so that others would pay the price.

Died in his own BS. He will be gladly missed.

Please ignore the BU shills that keep piling on and obfuscating everything. They will kill bitcoin if they keep it up and prevent a solution to this crisis.

Further, Bitmain is performing a patented hardware optimization.
The patents mean that other miners are unable to capitalize on these
optimizations. These optimizations are to the tune of 30%. If you give one
player in the mining industry a permanent 30% cost advantage they will
eventually own everything. It's an industry where margins tend towards zero.
...
But you need to recognize that the issue is not that Bitmain ran a hardware
optimization. It's that hardware optimizations exist which directly inhibit
upgrading the protocol. And it's that hardware optimizations exist
encumbered by patents enough to give one party a decisive advantage in
mining, decisive enough for them to build a single, centralized monopoly.

(David Vorick, https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org/msg05082.html)

Greg's proposal is in line with the principles of cryptocurrencies:
PoW-based cryptocurrency can work only if there is a competition between
miners, which requires all miners to have equal access to the technology.

The notion that Bitmain is entitled to future profits is completely
ridiculous. Every investment has a risk, and doing unusual stuff which
boosts your profits is associated with increased risk. Developers just need
to make sure all miners are on equal grounds, as that's the whole point of
the protocol.

(Alex Mizrahi, https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org/msg05093.html)

Lots more good food for thought at the discussion in these links.

Why is BTC price rising?

How can even claim that? the original bitcoin qt allowed people to mine with their compute while running the node so whats the deal?

Also satoshi claimed that a hard fork in btc would be a disaster.

because many felt to this Jihan Fud trap before.

They're all starting to froth at the mouth, the cheap tricks aren't working.


When will they learn: when you lie in the information age, true information has a habit of catching up with you, fast.

lol

i didnt see people crying when an AMD CPU had an advantage vs a Intel CPU
i didnt see people crying when an ATI GPU had an advantage vs a Geforce GPU

but all of a sudden "bomb ASICS coz gmaxwell says so"

why the sudden bomb threats and deadlines and blackmails..
is the $70m debt recovery process coming soo soon?

personal i am not see a problem for someone to cheat mining. The problem will be with Jihan and other miners. This story only expose how shadow puppets is guys like Ver and Jihan and what lies he spread over a year now.
They not want to "help" bitcoin as they say. They not want bitcoin to be a succeed as they say. they only care about their profit and they personal wealth and for that reason they will not care even  if bitcoin completely collapse.
what about mining. do you understand how you calculate hashrate now? I think this ASICBOOST is like trading bot of chinese miners. If developers can remove this then we will all see the true hashrate from china :P

Dude. Sour. Really fucking sour.   >:(

The problem here isn't ASICBOOST. The problem is that Jihan Wu (and others) are actively blocking SegWit for their own personal gain, while pretending that it is a difference in principle and they are acting to help us all.

For the same reason it was dropping when it looked like Bitcoin Unlimited might succeed. Their attempt to monopolize mining and control of the Bitcoin protocol was great for Bitmain, and ugly for everyone else. Plus they've been blocking Segwit and the Lighting Network. Now that they've been exposed we have a much better chance to beat back their effort and ultimately put Bitcoin back in a healthy competitive state.

BU supporters will tell you they have the economic majority, but there have been a number of surveys showing the opposite (and none from them showing significant BU support outside of Bitmain's cartel), and this price rise is further evidence. I put $9K that I'd pulled out of bitcoin right back in last night after I digested the news myself, as a case in point. That's a big chunk for me.

There was just no reason to believe bitcoin would have survived as a desirable store of value under a Bitmain dictatorship seeking to maximize short-term miner revenue. If their influence can be eliminated Bitcoin can soar again.

Thanks. I'm a Core supporter now.

 

Reasonable, since these are really three different things. A mining exploit is not exactly the same as the current war.

sorry to burst your bubble but ASICS have been around alot longer than segwit has.

trying to assume that asics were hard programmed to actively attack segwit is like blaming a caveman for something invented much much later.

let me guess Jihan has a time machine and seen october 2016's segwit code and and went back in time to 2015 and started building the blueprints for the s9 specifically to hurt segwit

p.s im using gmaxwells assumptions of reverse engineering a chip... (before you propaganda twist it into being about software)
afterall ur all complaining about bitmain (hardware company) not CGminer (software company)

Hey but network is not builded to serve miners but users.
Mines are users servant not other way.
Users needs miners to secure network and miners want money form users.
Whole drama of greed and go on lead to nowhere only BTC is surfering becouse one single company is running proof of half work asics...
This is so BS from bitmain... people didn't belived that miners would not hut BTC becouse in their interest is helping BTC and gues what happeed. As i predicted allways monopoly leads to point where that one singe entity want your money. As BTC users we shuld start UASF and activate segwit at like 60% i don't give fuck to bitmain farms they don't give a shit to BTC future so i don't give a shit to their future.
Let them mine their BU china coin and be happy.
One miner One Party One China...

I see we have our new "Blockstream's lie of the week", this time the enemy is the ASICs, again.

Looks like the block extension proposal really fucked Blockstream big time.
It is simple and it solves immediate blocksize problems.
 
What's even better is that the Block Extension is "party neutral" so Blockstream can't even go against it by bashing the BU strawman, so they needed to create another enemy to distract people for another week, they ran out of excuses so they recycled the same excuse they used to push for a hard fork last year:


It didn't work then, it doesn't work now.

If you're a newbie all you need to know is every time people from Blockstream open their mouth, it's a lie. Blockstream spent millions on SegWit, they have a deadline coming, but their walls are crumbling and even devs from LN are going against them now.

The good thing about this ASICboost bullshit is that it makes it so obvious who the paid shills are on this forum. These dumb fucks are paid to jump to conclusion with zero facts, all you need to do is ask them for prove, then they break down and disappear (the stupid ones argue back and make their shilling look even more obvious).

Bla bla bla...
After year China exploited miners took 70% of network and one single company control network this is Bitmain.
So as you see such drama ends here where bitmain hav no competition and calling BTC as decentralized in mining is fucking joke.
What is more funy that company blocks any solution that harm their patented tech for cheating.
Support more BU and you will end with ETH taking over cryptocurreny.
Eth have centralized network arround Vitalik - dev
BTC is centralized arround one asic manufacturer - bitmain

Investor will chose ?:
a) best tech
b) best asic manufacturer
- Sure all love bitmain like Google Aple Microsoft... give them all power.

Bitmain killed others using exploit in code :) nice... but it is time for network strike back and make USAF and tell him fuck off that is enough. If ater people won't like segwit then we can softfork it to another shape.
Today bitmain dominance is only damaging bitcoin.
But don't worry free market works people will support ETH miners more than BTC miners.
Today ETH miners earn 80% of that what BTC gets and numbers will rise over time till BU is blocking progress.
BU progress in unlimited blocks is joke -  gives bitmain BIG ADVANTAGE.
We can call BU BitmainCoin it would be more accurate name.

I fail to understand your comparison. I have never claimed that ASICs are programmed to attack SegWit.
I am pointing out the fact that Jihan Wu is lying about his intentions on why he is against SegWit. He is against SegWit because there is a significant economic interest for him.

For your information, I never stated that Jihan Wu is a time traveller. Also, CGMiner is not a software company.

The problem is you shills need to tell your handler to write you better PR scripts, your scripts are getting more and more moronic by the minute.

The arguments coming from you shill's mouth are so fucking idiotic, why the fuck aren't you people even fired from the PR team? If I run a PR campaign and I see staffs making stupid arguments like this, they'll be fired immediately.

Some facts:
1. Jihan supported SegWit in the HK agreement, it was Greg that broke it.
2. Now Jihan is supporting Ext Blocks, which is incompatible with ASICBoost, the 'exploit' he was accused of using.
3. Core devs have zero proof Jihan is using ASICBoost in production. (Is the any evidence of ANYONE using ASICBOOST? (https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/63upt6/is_the_any_evidence_of_anyone_using_asicboost/))
4. Facts indicate Jihan/AntPool isn't using ASICBoost at all: (If the shuffling of transactions is required for ASICBOOST to work, I don’t see any evidence that AntPool uses it (https://twitter.com/nikzh/status/849977573694164993))
5. In recent blocks, about 14% of AntPool's income come from fees.
6. Greg's math is wrong, again. Bitmain: Regarding Recent Allegations and Smear Campaigns  (https://blog.bitmain.com/en/regarding-recent-allegations-smear-campaigns/)

And here is the kicker, wait for it: Everyone expects miners to work for their own gain, that's how Bitcoin was designed to work.

Thanks for the summary of the situation, but why so much price increase?

And we should cut this shit of train now before it will be to big to fail...
WHEN Jihad will have 100% mining power and many $$$ to bribe lady gaga he will realese 21m limit and you can do anything about it. We need make UASF and move forward and let him join or keep his great BU coin.

Does this imply that everything that comes out of your mouth is the truth?

Not to mention that ASICBOOST is not something that Bitmain patented.

All you have done in your post is accuse people in favour of SegWit to be "paid shills". This, in turn, would make people against BU think that you yourself are a paid shill. Why cause all the drama? Can't we just have a civil discussion on why we are in favour of one proposal and not the other?

Everyone in this situation is acting for personal gain. Everyone.

The last person who was acting for the good of the community was Gavin, but he stepped away several years ago, and we are where we are.

If your IQ is below 50, yeah.

So you don't like it when someone else beat you at your own games? My points are backed by facts, the shills kept using arguments are completely fucking retarded, proven wrong over and over again by facts, but they ignored them and just kept spewing the same moronic bullshits for months.

I find it hard to believe anyone can really stay that stupid for that long, unless it's their job to stay stupid.


We have them, just not in this thread, this thread is just another bullshit shill script. 1000 words smearing attempt base on something Bitmain didn't even use.
 
Only a complete dumb fuck would accuse Jihan of blocking SegWit due to ASICBoost, when ASICBoost doesn't even work on Ext Blocks, which Jihan also support. When you're dealing with this level of weaponized idiocracy, 'discussion' was already over the moment they opened their mouths.

This is exactly what I mean. You have simply resorted to insults.


It seems to me that you are also accusing me of being a shill, when I have never expressed my viewpoint on this debate. I am merely exhausted from all of the infighting within the bitcoin community, and I'd prefer things to me negotiated in an amicable way, instead of calling each other retarded.

Do you have any facts to support both of your baseless assertions?



When one looks at Gavin's recent despicable behaviour, it's fairly clear that he was concealing a highly biased and bullying nature.

Why would a self-proclaimed free-marketeer, as Gavin Andresen does claim of himself, advocate brute force to remove competition from the marketplace? That's not acting in the community's interest, that's acting in the interest of the minority clique who wished to take the reins of Bitcoin for themselves.

Negotiated...yeah...

Gavin's original 8mb blocks...Core didnt like it

HK agreement...Core didnt like it

Flexcap/ABC... Core didnt like it

more recently:

2mb/segwit...Core didnt like it

extension blocks...Core didnt like it

EC patch on core...Core didnt like it

Do you see the pattern -- Core duddnt like nuttin but Greg's roadmap... This makes negotiation a little tough, dont you think?

I am describing what I am seeing, a bunch of stupid fucks agreeing to an obvious smear campaign base on something the other guy didn't even fucking do.

When people keep making idiotic statements where the stats don't check out, the facts don't check out, the historic facts are ignored, even fucking common sense is ignored, these people are by definition fucking morons.

You don't negotiate when the other idiot keep repeating 1+1=3, if he's simply uninformed, fine, learn the truth and move on, but when the same facts have already been explained over and over again, and they keep repeating the same bullshit, that is not a discussion, that is a shill operation, and shills deserve to be trashed for spreading bullshit nonstop.

Extension Blocks is something new; I think we should give them a bit more time on that. I understand what you mean with the others, but I still think that we should work towards those goals, and not create a civil war amongst ourselves. I think we all want Bitcoin to thrive and suceed.

Let me rephrase:

I personally have never said or accused or agreed to any accusation that BITMAIN is employing ASICBOOST for any purpose. Please do not accuse me of being a shill.

I am just chiming in to express my opinion on how divided the bitcoin community is, nothing else.

If you are referring to my proposal to decentralize mining again, I'm not in ANY way connected with Blockstream, or Core or anything. Not so much as a single PM shared with a Core dev ever, for example. You are just railing against an average member of the bitcoin community with your tirade.

Your side has lost, and is just digging a deeper hole for itself with every new denial, lie and obfuscation. I encourage newbies and those who have not followed this issue closely to read all that BU has to say - and also what the rest of us have to say, the reporting in the media and so forth. I rather doubt you'll be happy with their reaction once "Joe Average" digests it all.

I try every day to have civil discussions based on facts.  I don't always succeed, sometimes I lose my cool.

I don't know if its paid shilling, non-paid shilling or brainwashing, but its very frustrating to try
to have the dialogue.

For example, the Lightening Network still requires large blocks (it says that in the whitepaper).
But you have people arguing against bigger blocks and for LN, and just repeating the
same thing over and over like Alex is talking about.

There's a few people that I disagree with but I can still have a conversation
with and then there's a lot of shills/idiots.
 

Let me rephrase:
Anyone who've followed Bitcoin news for longer than a week and still can't see this ASICBoost non-issue is just the same regurgitated half digested bullshit Blockstream pulled out off their collective ass, is either intentionally dishonest or just a complete dumb fuck.

That's fine. I completely understand that, and I don't doubt that there are shills trying to promote one side or the other.


Anyone who has a different opinion than yours, or that doesn't have an opinion, is either intentionally dishonest or just a complete dumb fuck. Got it.

No, I was simply referring to your fucking idiotic 'summary'.


What side? What the fuck are you even on about? Have you even read my earlier posts?
Even if you haven't, I am just pointing out facts here, but you're against facts that's why you think I am on the other 'side'.

See, this is the kind of scripted shilling bullshit that are just too fucking obvious.

Let's look at your bullshit 'summary' again:


Tell me genius, if the ASICBoost is incompatible to both SegWit and Ext Block, and Bitmain supported SegWit and now supports Ext Block, then how the fuck could you possibly jump to that idiotic conclusion base on 'This exploit is incompatible with Segwit'?

How the fuck does your mind even work?

Hahaha... fucking yea.
Gettin out of busnes companies that not use assic boost tech to cheat is bullshit.
With those miners hmm one asic company that they profit depend on not including segwit technology is joke. They don't want activate segwit to not lose profit same time they won't make any good progress and bug fixes because they want keep patented asics going.
Whole situation is in deep shit at end i have more respect to Core/Blockstreem than for Jihad miner company. Etherum will eat those big blockers without any knowledge about codding.
Whole fight about crypto scene will end faster than it start. Whole bullshit how BU devs are is joke.
Bitcoin won't go forward without good DEVs and Core are much better than BU for sure.
Give Jihad year more of trolling and he will get less than ETH gpu miners.


I don't give a fuck to miners that they all wasn't is $$$ at all cost even reckting industry.
Yea today we have 2 asics companies. One control 70% of market this is BTC problem and BTC fell that shit in price even. Every time Jihad open mouths price is getting down :D
Only way to get rid of this cancer is USAF and like 51% activation. Then let BU have their own fork and lets move forward. Jihad will have own unlimited coin without devs without any progress...
Yea he can copy from CORE something... they not making patents.

Here is another shining example of a shill, when the shill can't refute the facts you posted, they just quote you anyway and repeat the same bullshit.

Watch how he even began his reply by "Fucking yea" hoping people is so fucking stupid they'd actually think I was agreeing with the bullshit that follows.

Again, the shilling is too fucking stupid and too fucking obvious.

ebeliever right now:
 https://i.imgflip.com/1mtafq.jpg

Bitcoin has just been diagnosed with ass cancer we need to be ready to take cemo.

hardware efficiency has been around for 2 years+
segwit for 6 months

and one month ago Gmaxwell realises that going soft has setbacks that can only be remedied by giving in and finally doing a node consensus upgrade (allowing an opportunity to add features properly)
OR
pretend the hardware manufacturers went back in time and created segwit cancer.. before segwit was part of bitcoin, before segwit was even planned to go soft.
and then decide to not do a node consensus to add features properly and that would include dynamics... but do a node consensus to mandatorily add soft segwit with its glitches and a pool asic nuke..

it just makes no sense!!

but i am laughing at gmaxwells illogic to try playing the victim card rather than man up and do something the whole community would finally want

Everyone knows what you are  Franky

im much more informed and actually able to add content to a topic
your just mad that i am frank about how i say it..
yep im frank

ASICBOOST is evil, it will result in a 100% China controlled Bitcoin once activated.

There is no more choice between BU and Segwit now, Segwit is ASICBOOST killer

So to answer OPs question: go for Segwit, unless BU is also fixing the ASICBOOST exploit ;D

Just curious, are you open to other scaling proposals than Core's roadmap, or that's the only one you support?

noob, lol i have been here longer then you and know more about bitcoin than you. yep i have seen your post history and had a chuckle

At the moment I am open to anything that is incompatible with Asicboost

I was not smart enough to tell whether BU or Segwit was the better option, but I am also not dumb enough to fail to realize what Asicboost can do.  ;)

If the asshats know as BTC core had just done a hard fork , the decision would have already been made.
Instead they pick  the stupid soft fork option, which after all of these months is just wasting everyone's time.
Soft Fork = Stupid waste of time

So here is the Challenge to G.Maxwell & Core,

Release a Hard Fork of whatever Segwit Crap you are pushing to give the Banking Cartels control.
And lets really get this party started.

Enough of this bullshit banter between people speaking the truth and your lying ass shills.

Release a Segwit Hard Fork and let's take this Battle to the Next Level.

  8)

Leopard2, I wouldn't trust anything BU is saying right now, nor for them to follow through on any promises given their track record.

More fun reading:

https://twitter.com/BITMAINtech/status/850050651614715904

This is Bitmain's response to what they call a "smear campaign" (as the black pot would call it). But as you can see what the Twitter responses, no one is buying it.

Note that BitMain also whines about an army of paid trolls. Let's see.... their twitter feed shows everyone criticizing them, and every poll and survey shows them in a huge minority in terms of human beings (not hashrate). Yet the forums are filled with a handful of overactive zealots fighting tooth and nail on behalf of BU. Yet we're expected to believe that it is Core that has the troll army and not BU?

If that's the case, where are the economic majority that keeps voting via the BTC price (which spikes every time BU screws up), shows up on twitter and in surveys and every other medium the trolls can't dominate? Bitmain just can't help constantly projecting their own faults (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63qaps/a_list_of_all_the_bu_supporter_concocted/)

How about extension blocks?

I can spot the paid trolls so easily.
I've been here way to long....

Asicboost is like Ice-9 for Bitcoin

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ice-Nine

I do not care if they are honest or not, good or bad, I do not wish that anyone possesses the power to destroy Bitcoin.

If we go for BU now, there is no turning back, that is a final decision, it is like handing a chip of Ice-9 to Bitmain...

Thanks but no thanks  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

ebeliever

im actually a fan of
diverse open decentralised peer network of multiple brands using consensus..
i just hate blockstream as they are the opposite of all that.

this is why each year blocstreamists try to pigeon hole me into whatever group is their enemy at the time..
but fail to realise the actual issue at hand

you can pretend this year im a BU groupy and next year you can pretend im something else all you like, but all or doing is sticking your head in the sand to the real issue.

P.S
blockstream wont last long.
$70m in debt and already their 'founders' are planning their exit strategy.
matt corolla got away first. now with chaincode labs

hint, if he was a founder of a $70m business. why leave.
hint, its $70m debt that needs returns, not profit... and times running out for them..

so think long and hard about what you are protecting..
start protecting bitcoin and its diverse open decentralised peer network of multiple brands using consensus..

not the blockstreamist group that is temporary because soon enough you wont have them to snuggle up with

Read the news before you troll you stupid lazy fuck, leading LN dev just public stated what everyone knew all along: Core runs PR and trolling campaigns:


According to your dumb fuck logic, LN dev must also be fighting on behalf for BU too then?

This kind if idiocracy is what I am talking about, there is a limit on how stupid you can be when you work as a shill for someone, when your logic degrade to this level the script just doesn't work anymore, why the fuck do you idiots even repeat them? It isn't working, does your PR handler even read what you're posting?
 
You know Blockstream is fucked when even the LN dev go against them in public, if I were you I'd start looking for a new PR job, at this rate Blockstream won't last long.

We need to activate UASF as soon as possible as an counter measure for Jihan centralized blockchain that will only benefit him.
Wake up the truth has been revealed !

Now this is just hilarious, you idiots were just proven wrong again by facts, and you just go ahead and repeat the same bullshit anyway? Did you even feel shame when you click the 'Post' button?

such a belligerent newb  ;D fookball is it you?

nope.  i'm my own creature. 

So, are you a shill?   Do you support any scaling roadmap other than Core's?

http://www.coindesk.com/purse-proposal-touts-extension-blocks-bitcoin-scaling-solution/

That looks like a reasonable option. So, will that be Asicboost resistant? How?

I am a bit confused because the article says Bitmain supports it.

My understanding is that it will be asicboost resistant for the same reason segwit would be
(separation of block data making it impossible to pre-calculate the last bytes of the merkle tree, or something...)

Or at least the new version of it will be.

As far as Bitmain, first I heard they supported it, and assumed they didnt care about asicboost,
someone said now they changed their mind?? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1858369.msg18499158#msg18499158
but i'm sure they can't stop it if the rest of community wants it.

 

I am amazed by the core sheep fuck tards.
Bitmain once supported segwit when core was going to include a larger block size. Core backed out of the bigger blocks. Which is why bitmain withdrew support for segwit. Which blows out of the water all of the conspiracy theories of the asicboost nonsense.

Not only that, but the core sheep fail to do the math. Bitmain pools perform within 1% of other pools. If they were mining more empty blocks than everyone else. They would have a higher block to hash rate than everyone else. They do not. Therefore no one is using asicboost.

I think the conspiracy theorists need new tinfoil hats.

This. This. This.

It's a free world and miners are free to do whatever they can to give themselves an advantage. It is a competition.

you also forgot the conspiracy theorists who think time travel is real and allowed miners to make a segwit attack

time line
an asic was made BEFORE segwit even was envisioned for bitcoin. the details of asicboost and its utility was available before segwit.
but somehow.. magic unicorn of events happened:
miners seen october 2016 code and went back in time to make hardware and software that are strange now (february2017+) attacking segwit..

much more likely that segwit was not designed correctly to work around hardware efficiencies and even 5 months after public release (last month) when gmaxwell and chums suddenly realised that segwit has a flaw and spent a month trying to patch segwit, but they couldnt.

so now all of a sudden gmaxwell wants to throw conspiracy theories that miners made an attack to disrupt segwit and so now segwit needs to stop miners.

..
to me asic boost is like ATI's openCL that gave ATI GPU's an advantage over Geforce GPU's a few years ago.
so if you can imagine going back to 2011
imagine core pointing fingers that ATI was attacking core by being efficient mining hardware, you would laugh at core devs. not try bombing ATI

Yes. And the core sheep also forget that core owns several patents for off chain technology that steals money from miners. Which is the number one reason core has been acting this way. They want to make a shit ton of money.

Mining machines are expensive. The risk involved is high when it comes to a bitcoin mining operation. It takes about 1,600. USD to get one bitmain s9 running. Yet it's net profit is only 4.00 Usd a day. Which means it takes 13 months just to get a return on investment.

If people are tired of China businesses having the majority of network hash. I strongly suggest you (bitcoin community) take part in the high risk and purchase miners. You don't have to have them in your house. There are places that host them for you. If you want a vote. Time to put your money where your mouth is and invest into the foundation of bitcoin.

you would be surprised that the whole "china own mining" reddit scripts has been exaggerated too.

Not this world.


If someone can cheat in the competition, that's not open or free competition.


And we're all here, really, because the information has got out that the central banks (and commodities markets) are basically a trick. That's called fascism, not capitalism.

We're a part of Bitcoin to free the world from the unfair competition, not because the competition is fair. Do keep up, amanda85

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/645jjq/why_i_support_a_uasf/

There's is no evidence of "now the evidence about covert ASICBOOST being used".
Stop spreading lies. Any further comments need to have data behind them. Which is one thing core sheep do not have.

lol

so censoring anything non-core is fair?
thinking core (one of many implementations) should rule supreme is fair?
demanding people respect gmaxwell as king is fair?

letting blockstream use the anyonecanspend opcode backdoor exploit to get their elements:segwit altcoin slid into bitcoin without having node consensus veto is fair?

think about it.

oh and think about it with the diverse dcentralised bitcoin ethos hat on.. not the blockstreamist defender hat on

with your s9 crap you should pray that we apply UASF, another option is Pow do you prefer it?

Neither. Best option is bigger blocks with out off chain nodes stealing money.
You still have not provided any numbers backing your claims.

im too lazy to proof anything to biased big blocker. read last days' news. your wishes are good for you and your chinese friends but not for Bitcoin's decentra;ization

The solution to your chinese decentralization problem is quite simple. All you and your cheap core sheep have to do is by miners. Problem solved. But we know that will not happen.



At least your honest.  ::)

again you? I repeat don't make me angry you may end up with heap of useless crap on hands

asics running for 2 years.
segwit not even running but only public release code for 6 months

gmaxwell only discovers a flaw in segwit last month.

and suddenly its asics fault??
good luck with that illogic

where was gmaxwells GPU nukes in 2011 proclaiming ATI was attacking bitcoin-qt due to openCL

Ooooooo threats from core sheep. You are quite the internet Rambo.