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Title: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:07:20 PM It seems like every other day someone makes a post about how we ought to make our own nation. About how its such a great idea. +1 +1 +1 they say. Well saying +1 isn't going to make it fucking happen. So enough talking about how cool it would be, lets instead talk logistics.
It seems to me that step one is find a location. it seems to me that it should be an island and it should be close to the US since thats where most of us live but not TOO close to the US for obvious reasons. It needs to have fresh water. It needs to be accessible. We need to be able to grow atleast a little bit of food and it needs to have atleast a little bit of wild game. So step 1 is compile a list of all available candidate islands and then we can move onto weighing the costs and benefits of each option. (please dont stop reading just because of the next few words libertarian anarchists) In order to be recognized by the international community we will need a government. Now i know many of you are recoiling in horror but not only would there be a general lack of belief in the legitimacy of the government, there would actually be a general understanding that the government was illegitimate by design. Since all governments rely on the perception of legitimacy among its constituency there would be no fear of this government ever taking over, we would all know that it was ceremonial and nothing more. So if we need a government i say lets keep it as simple as possible, if we elect 300 members of congress they could potentially begin to conspire, i say we just elect a new dictator every year and according to the law no dictator can ever hold his position for more than 1 term. Also if more than 50% of the population signs a petition to have him removed from office than he can be removed from office at any time. Basically we will need this person to organize the migration, charter the boats and sign treaties with other nations. My personal recommendation and vote goes to doug casey as he is an anarchist and has some experience in these matters and i think he would get a serious kick out of writing "the anarchist king" on his tomb stone ;D Next we need to figure out how much its going to cost or at-least a rough estimate so we can set a funding goal then finally we need to raise the funds. This could be accomplished through crowed funding (like kick-starter). Those who pledged to the campaign would be rewarded with a deed to a piece of property on the island that corresponded to their contribution (if they donated 1% of they funds they get 1% of the land) This way pledging would not only be a charitable act, it could be considered an investment, after-all a piece of property in galt's gulch could end up being the most valuable piece of realestate on the planet very quickly. Considering that land is a heterogeneous good we should probably use some sort of raffle system to make the distribution provably fair. the tough thing is raising the amount of money we are talking about here would require some reliable escrow providers. Inorder to make this thing work we would need a big fish to do the escrow for us. By big i mean stefan molineaux or tom woods ect. anyway im going to start on step one now and search for candidate islands. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: DeathAndTaxes on April 27, 2013, 07:10:32 PM Are you planning on building an artificial island?
There is no land* which isn't the land/territory/protectorate of an existing country. The major exception being Antarctica however the vast majority of existing nations have signed a UN treaty to prevent that land from being claimed by any existing or new nation. There are a few unstable volcanic formations which may extend above the sea level but nothing capable of supporting even the smallest of communities (think rock a few acres large barely sticking out of the water). You can buy a private island but that would put you under an existing sovereign: http://www.privateislandsonline.com/ One example of a propsal to form a "free citystate" which however would still be under US federal sovreignty. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/28/would-you-pay-300000-to-become-a-citizen-of-this-proposed-free-market-utopia-in-detroit/ http://www.commonwealthofbelleisle.com/ Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: malevolent on April 27, 2013, 07:15:46 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Current_terrae_nullius
Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on April 27, 2013, 07:17:46 PM It seems like every other day someone makes a post about how we ought to make our own nation. About how its such a great idea. +1 +1 +1 they say. Well saying +1 isn't going to make it fucking happen. So enough talking about how cool it would be, lets instead talk about what steps we need to take inorder to get there. It seems to me that step one is find a location. it seems to me that it should be an island and it should be close to the US since thats where most of us live but not TOO close to the US for obvious reasons. It needs to have fresh water. It needs to be accessible. We need to be able to grow atleast a little bit of food and it needs to have atleast a little bit of wild game. So step 1 is compile a list of all available candidate islands and then we can move onto weighing the costs and benefits of each option. (please dont stop reading just because of the next few words libertarian anarchists) In order to be recognized by the international community we will need a government. Now i know many of you are recoiling in horror but not only would there be a general lack of belief in the legitimacy of the government, there would actually be a general understanding that the government was illegitimate by design. Since all governments rely on the perception of legitimacy among its constituency there would be no fear of this government ever taking over, we would all know that it was ceremonial and nothing more. So if we need a government i say lets keep it as simple as possible, if we elect 300 members of congress they could potentially begin to conspire, i say we just elect a new dictator every year and according to the law no dictator can ever hold his position for more than 1 term. Also if more than 50% of the population signs a petition to have him removed from office than he can be removed from office at any time. Basically we will need this person to organize the migration, charter the boats and sign treaties with other nations. My personal recommendation and vote goes to doug casey as he is an anarchist and has some experience in these matters and i think he would get a serious kick out of writing "the anarchist king" on his tomb stone ;D Next we need to figure out how much its going to cost or at-least a rough estimate so we can set a funding goal then finally we need to raise the funds. This could be accomplished through crowed funding (like kick-starter). Those who pledged to the campaign would be rewarded with a deed to a piece of property on the island that corresponded to their contribution (if they donated 1% of they funds they get 1% of the land) This way pledging would not only be a charitable act, it could be considered an investment, after-all a piece of property in galt's gulch could end up being the most valuable piece of realestate on the planet very quickly. Considering that land is a heterogeneous good we should probably use some sort of raffle system to make the distribution provably fair. the tough thing is raising the amount of money we are talking about here would require some reliable escrow providers. Inorder to make this thing work we would need a big fish to do the escrow for us. By big i mean stefan molineaux or tom woods ect. anyway im going to start on step one now and search for candidate islands. How about an island in Canada currently controlled by one of them sovereign Indians? Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:17:48 PM Are you planning on building an artificial island? There is no land* which isn't the land/territory/protectorate of an existing country. The sole exception being Antarctica however the vast majority of existing nations have signed a UN treaty to prevent that land from being claimed by any existing or new nation. well you know if we had to pay a part of the funding inorder to purchase the island from a soveriegn than it could be arranged. If a big name like stef or tom woods got behind this we could probably raise enough. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Mike Christ on April 27, 2013, 07:18:20 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Current_terrae_nullius Well, I suppose we could colonize mars. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 27, 2013, 07:19:05 PM anyway im going to start on step one now and search for candidate islands. I'm in. I say we elect a king, and then draft a constitution completely stripping him of powers. He's just there as a figurehead. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Come-from-Beyond on April 27, 2013, 07:22:53 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Current_terrae_nullius Well, I suppose we could colonize mars. Yes. Let's claim Mars as our territory. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:24:47 PM It seems like every other day someone makes a post about how we ought to make our own nation. About how its such a great idea. +1 +1 +1 they say. Well saying +1 isn't going to make it fucking happen. So enough talking about how cool it would be, lets instead talk about what steps we need to take inorder to get there. It seems to me that step one is find a location. it seems to me that it should be an island and it should be close to the US since thats where most of us live but not TOO close to the US for obvious reasons. It needs to have fresh water. It needs to be accessible. We need to be able to grow atleast a little bit of food and it needs to have atleast a little bit of wild game. So step 1 is compile a list of all available candidate islands and then we can move onto weighing the costs and benefits of each option. (please dont stop reading just because of the next few words libertarian anarchists) In order to be recognized by the international community we will need a government. Now i know many of you are recoiling in horror but not only would there be a general lack of belief in the legitimacy of the government, there would actually be a general understanding that the government was illegitimate by design. Since all governments rely on the perception of legitimacy among its constituency there would be no fear of this government ever taking over, we would all know that it was ceremonial and nothing more. So if we need a government i say lets keep it as simple as possible, if we elect 300 members of congress they could potentially begin to conspire, i say we just elect a new dictator every year and according to the law no dictator can ever hold his position for more than 1 term. Also if more than 50% of the population signs a petition to have him removed from office than he can be removed from office at any time. Basically we will need this person to organize the migration, charter the boats and sign treaties with other nations. My personal recommendation and vote goes to doug casey as he is an anarchist and has some experience in these matters and i think he would get a serious kick out of writing "the anarchist king" on his tomb stone ;D Next we need to figure out how much its going to cost or at-least a rough estimate so we can set a funding goal then finally we need to raise the funds. This could be accomplished through crowed funding (like kick-starter). Those who pledged to the campaign would be rewarded with a deed to a piece of property on the island that corresponded to their contribution (if they donated 1% of they funds they get 1% of the land) This way pledging would not only be a charitable act, it could be considered an investment, after-all a piece of property in galt's gulch could end up being the most valuable piece of realestate on the planet very quickly. Considering that land is a heterogeneous good we should probably use some sort of raffle system to make the distribution provably fair. the tough thing is raising the amount of money we are talking about here would require some reliable escrow providers. Inorder to make this thing work we would need a big fish to do the escrow for us. By big i mean stefan molineaux or tom woods ect. anyway im going to start on step one now and search for candidate islands. How about an island in Canada currently controlled by one of them sovereign Indians? are there any that arnt freezing cold year around? Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:26:53 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Current_terrae_nullius Well, I suppose we could colonize mars. Yes. Let's claim Mars as our territory. We would have to homestead it. You don't by any chance have a vessel that can take us there do you mr. beyond? Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: DeathAndTaxes on April 27, 2013, 07:28:17 PM Are you planning on building an artificial island? There is no land* which isn't the land/territory/protectorate of an existing country. The sole exception being Antarctica however the vast majority of existing nations have signed a UN treaty to prevent that land from being claimed by any existing or new nation. well you know if we had to pay a part of the funding inorder to purchase the island from a sovereign than it could be arranged. If a big name like stef or tom woods got behind this we could probably raise enough. Land is the one thing for which global demand (on any extended timespan) is always increasing and nobody is increasing the supply. A country will gladly give you deed to land UNDER THEIR SOVEREIGN RULE however countries generally do not willingly party with territory. Nations are a sort of "good ole boys club" with no vacancies available (without the use of force)*. It is the obvious "oversight" entities like the UN deal with interactions between existing nations however they almost intentionally pretend that all these nations have always existed and will always exist and no other nation has ever or will ever exist. For all the pomp and diplomacy nations are formed by violence. This covers the issue pretty well http://www.worldislandinfo.com/Starting%20island%20country.html The only likely scenario for creating a new nation would be geoforming a new island in international water (which is very deep). We are taking an engineering project to rival the best the human race has accomplished and something on the scale of tens of billions of dollars, millions of man hours, and years (if not decades) in the making. A more plausible shorter scale scenario would be a very large ship (i.e. floating nation) or other manmade structure (deep water oil platform) or possibly a seastading community using a platform as a "home base" of sorts. * In the last sixty years the only "new" countries were either nations where the existing government fell and was replaced by a government under the name of a new nation or nations which split into multiple new nations (i.e. Yugoslavia) after years of internal conflict. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: manfred on April 27, 2013, 07:37:46 PM That why i think the "Principality of Hutt River" is a good start. better maybe the Pitcain Islands. The islands are inhabited by the descendants of the Bounty mutineers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands) Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: conspirosphere.tk on April 27, 2013, 07:39:22 PM Acquiring and defending land and sovereignty on it would be probably unprofitable I guess, but in case anyone would like to explore the matter, here is a place to start:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html) But it would be infinitely cheaper and better to imitate the banksters and just buy the legitimate government of any country you fancy to do (and let it do) whatever you like while remaining out of the spotlight. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:41:13 PM Are you planning on building an artificial island? There is no land* which isn't the land/territory/protectorate of an existing country. The sole exception being Antarctica however the vast majority of existing nations have signed a UN treaty to prevent that land from being claimed by any existing or new nation. well you know if we had to pay a part of the funding inorder to purchase the island from a sovereign than it could be arranged. If a big name like stef or tom woods got behind this we could probably raise enough. Land is the one thing for which global demand (on any extended timespan) is always increasing and nobody is increasing the supply. A country will gladly give you deed to land UNDER THEIR SOVEREIGN RULE however countries generally do not willingly party with territory. Nations are a sort of "good ole boys club" with no vacancies available (without the use of force)*. * In the last sixty years the only "new" countries were either nations where the existing government fell and was replaced by a government under the name of a new nation or nations which split into multiple new nations (i.e. Yugoslavia) after years of internal conflict. what if we were to pay an existing soveriegn 10 times what about 100 times, 1000 times the asking price and only take a VERY tiny island? Theoretically an existing internationally recognized sovereign could agree to relinquish its claim of sovereignty over a small piece of land. Of course we would quickly find a sponsor nation that we could fly as a flag of convenience for a price. All this would be pricy. But i really think so many people want it who knows how much a well backed crowed-funding campaign could raise. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: DeathAndTaxes on April 27, 2013, 07:47:06 PM Acquiring and defending land and sovereignty on it would be probably be unprofitable I guess, but in case anyone would like to explore the matter, here is a place to start: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html) But it would be infinitely cheaper and better to imitate the banksters and just buy the legitimate government of any country you fancy to do (and let it do) whatever you like while remaining out of the lights. This. There are some very small (very poor) nations where say ten billion dollars could likely buy you enough power (and immigrants = votes) to "reform" the local government into whatever you wanted. For example Tuval has a population of ~10,000 persons, a GDP of $36 million and yet is recognized as a sovereign nation by just about every existing nation and the UN. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:50:48 PM Acquiring and defending land and sovereignty on it would be probably be unprofitable I guess, but in case anyone would like to explore the matter, here is a place to start: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html) But it would be infinitely cheaper and better to imitate the banksters and just buy the legitimate government of any country you fancy to do (and let it do) whatever you like while remaining out of the lights. This. There are some very small (very poor) nations where say ten billion dollars could likely buy you enough power (and immigrants = votes) to "reform" the local government into whatever you wanted. For example Tuval has a population of ~10,000 persons, a GDP of $36 million and yet is recognized as a sovereign nation by just about every existing nation and the UN. HELL YES now you are talking. Lets do this, lets crowed fund the take over of that government by a bunch of hard core libertarians! If we elected the right people, could we actually elect people that would dismantle the government? Is there one among us who is actually strong enough to carry saurons dark ring to mount doom and actually do it, actually cast it into the fires? Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: manfred on April 27, 2013, 07:53:13 PM Tuvalu, well i been there. The country basically survives from an Australian, New zealand trust fund. Would they give up membership of world bank and asian develpment bank and risk relations form the hand who feeds them for some for ASICS they would have to buy?? Who is going to explain to them what a bitcoins is, most struggle to read a newspaper. Bunkers, the majority of the useful land is 1 meter above high tide make in the middle of the ocean. Who is paying for upgrading internet infrastructure in the middle of the ocean?? Tuvalu is a member of the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. Tuvalu maintains close relations with Fiji, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, South Korea, the United Kingdom and the European Union. It has diplomatic relations with the Republic of China (Taiwan); the ROC maintains the only resident embassy in Tuvalu and has a large assistance programme in the islands. Tuvalu is party to a treaty of friendship with the United States, The highest elevation is 4.6 metres (15 ft) above sea level on Niulakita, which gives Tuvalu the second-lowest maximum elevation of any country (after the Maldives). However, the highest elevations are typically in narrow storm dunes on the ocean side of the islands which are prone to overtopping in tropical cyclones, as occurred with Cyclone Bebe, which was a very early-season storm that passed through the Tuvaluan atolls in October 1972. Because of the low elevation, the islands that make up this nation are threatened by current and future sea level rise. Additionally, Tuvalu is annually affected by king tide events which peak towards the end of the austral summer, and raise the sea level higher than a normal high tide. As a result of historical sea level rise, the king tide events lead to flooding of low lying areas, which is compounded when sea levels are further raised by La Niña effects or local storms and waves. In the future, sea level rise may threaten to submerge the nation entirely as it is estimated that a sea level rise of 20–40 centimetres (8–16 inches) in the next 100 years could make Tuvalu uninhabitable. "Principality of Hutt River" and "Freetown Christiania" out of question only remains the Pitcain Islands. The islands are inhabited by the descendants of the Bounty mutineers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands) Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Mike Christ on April 27, 2013, 07:55:35 PM Acquiring and defending land and sovereignty on it would be probably be unprofitable I guess, but in case anyone would like to explore the matter, here is a place to start: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323820304578410573747048086.html) But it would be infinitely cheaper and better to imitate the banksters and just buy the legitimate government of any country you fancy to do (and let it do) whatever you like while remaining out of the lights. This. There are some very small (very poor) nations where say ten billion dollars could likely buy you enough power (and immigrants = votes) to "reform" the local government into whatever you wanted. For example Tuval has a population of ~10,000 persons, a GDP of $36 million and yet is recognized as a sovereign nation by just about every existing nation and the UN. HELL YES now you are talking. Lets do this, lets crowed fund the take over of that government by a bunch of hard core libertarians! If we elected the right people, could we actually elect people that would dismantle the government? Is there one among us who is actually strong enough to carry saurons dark ring to mount doom and actually do it, actually cast it into the fires? Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:57:24 PM Tuvalu, well i been there. The country basically survives from an Australian, New zealand trust fund. Would they give up membership of world bank and asian develpment bank and risk relations form the hand who feeds them for some for ASICS they would have to buy?? Who is going to explain to them what a bitcoins is, most struggle to read a newspaper. Bunkers, the majority of the useful land is 1 meter above high tide make in the middle of the ocean. Who is paying for upgrading internet infrastructure in the middle of the ocean?? Tuvalu is a member of the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. Tuvalu maintains close relations with Fiji, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, South Korea, the United Kingdom and the European Union. It has diplomatic relations with the Republic of China (Taiwan); the ROC maintains the only resident embassy in Tuvalu and has a large assistance programme in the islands. Tuvalu is party to a treaty of friendship with the United States, The highest elevation is 4.6 metres (15 ft) above sea level on Niulakita, which gives Tuvalu the second-lowest maximum elevation of any country (after the Maldives). However, the highest elevations are typically in narrow storm dunes on the ocean side of the islands which are prone to overtopping in tropical cyclones, as occurred with Cyclone Bebe, which was a very early-season storm that passed through the Tuvaluan atolls in October 1972. Because of the low elevation, the islands that make up this nation are threatened by current and future sea level rise. Additionally, Tuvalu is annually affected by king tide events which peak towards the end of the austral summer, and raise the sea level higher than a normal high tide. As a result of historical sea level rise, the king tide events lead to flooding of low lying areas, which is compounded when sea levels are further raised by La Niña effects or local storms and waves. In the future, sea level rise may threaten to submerge the nation entirely as it is estimated that a sea level rise of 20–40 centimetres (8–16 inches) in the next 100 years could make Tuvalu uninhabitable. "Principality of Hutt River" and "Freedom Christianity" out of question only remains the Pitcain Islands. The islands are inhabited by the descendants of the Bounty mutineers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands) hey i remember reading a book about those guys ages ago. I wonder if we just brought them a nice little pile of gold if we could get them to let us have a little piece of land :) Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 27, 2013, 07:57:51 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 07:58:53 PM remember guys a single square mile of real capitalism could probably outshine the entire globe. We dont have to shoot for the moon here.
Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 08:00:26 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ Yea except that plan is fucking idiotic. They are going to get steamrolled. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: manfred on April 27, 2013, 08:02:29 PM Quote hey i remember reading a book about those guys ages ago. I wonder if we just brought them a nice little pile of gold if we could get them to let us have a little piece of land They probably happy if u just move there. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: DeathAndTaxes on April 27, 2013, 08:02:33 PM "Principality of Hutt River" and "Freedom Christianity" out of question only remains the Pitcain Islands. The islands are inhabited by the descendants of the Bounty mutineers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Islands) The Pitcairn islands are not sovereign. They are an overseas territory of the United Kingdom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories#Current_entries Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Mike Christ on April 27, 2013, 08:03:41 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ I've seen this before; seems to be a good step in the right direction. "Divided we fall, united we stand." A whole bunch of libertarians united in one spot will be much more likely to edit law in a favorable way. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: conspirosphere.tk on April 27, 2013, 08:04:25 PM or google for "habitable uninhabited islands". I heard there are about 5 thousands.
Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: manfred on April 27, 2013, 08:07:28 PM The "Principality of Hutt River" claims to be an independent sovereign state having achieved legal status on 21 April 1972, although it remains unrecognised except by other micronations. It has 30 full time residents, and 13,000-18,000 overseas citizens and is 75 square kilometres big, its one flag currency, seal and passport. Any Aussies here who would have a chat with Prince Leonard I of Hutt ? The PHR do not pay taxes to the ATO. Hong Kong recognises Hutt River as a legitimate state in regards of incorporation for a company, but is reviewing the recognition after the issue was raised in an adverse manner by Australian media. Cant see why being land locked is an issue.
Wikilink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 08:08:43 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ I've seen this before; seems to be a good step in the right direction. "Divided we fall, united we stand." A whole bunch of libertarians united in one spot will be much more likely to edit law in a favorable way. yea but they could have focused their efforts towards taking over a sovereign entity not some local government in the united states. ooh look were going to abolish parking tickets! Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: zeroday on April 27, 2013, 08:08:47 PM Sovereign territory?
Impossible, because of slavish nature of the majority of human beings. So, may be on Mars it would work. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 27, 2013, 08:09:53 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ Yea except that plan is fucking idiotic. They are going to get steamrolled. They're making progress. And they don't even have everyone moved yet. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Mike Christ on April 27, 2013, 08:13:19 PM yea but they could have focused their efforts towards taking over a sovereign entity not some local government in the united states. ooh look were going to abolish parking tickets! Regime change starts at home. Besides, while they're working on breaking apart the tyrannical America from the inside-out (an important step if you want your libertarian society to thrive without America tripping itself, knocking over its own buildings, then saying your nation done it so they can bomb the fuck outta ya and spread their disease named "freedom and democracy" to your 'oppressed' people), we can focus on spreading real freedom elsewhere. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 08:13:32 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ Yea except that plan is fucking idiotic. They are going to get steamrolled. They're making progress. And they don't even have everyone moved yet. what im saying is if they moved to the lowest gdp country in the world they could have probably already taken over the entire government. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 08:22:01 PM ok so here is the plan:
we crowed fund a campaign to get members of the mises academe elected to every position of significance in the Tuvalu government. They are SO poor in Tuvalu i dont even think it would cost that much, so if it failed it wouldn't even be that big of a deal i think, financially for all of us who contributed. You can subsititute tuvalu for a similarly poor country that has a nicer climate i just picked it because it appears to be the lowest gdp in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: dank on April 27, 2013, 08:27:55 PM I had that idea too. Rather than creating our own nation that would ultimately be vulnerable to the same drawbacks of greed and control, why don't we stop believing in nations and live as one united family, one world? Imagine there's no countries, it's easy if you try.
World peace is only a communial choice away. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: DeathAndTaxes on April 27, 2013, 08:28:04 PM what im saying is if they moved to the lowest gdp country in the world they could have probably already taken over the entire government. Or not. You likely are understimating by a couple orders of magnitude the cost and complexity of such an operation. To become a citizen of Tuvalu (and most nations have similar requirements) you must be a resident for seven years AND renounce your existing citizenship. Not that easy to convince people to move to the ass end of nowhere at huge personal risk for hope that in a decade or so they will be able to form a capitalist utopia. Many citizens of an existing nation (poor or not) would not want mass immigration and would move to slow immigration and citizenship. To make it worthwhile for existing residents they have to also believe their lives will be improved. That means lots of spending on infrastructure, airports, schools, etc. Just the advocacy and planning stages would require significant investment and residency. Would you move there in the hopes some crowdfunded group on a forum didn't decide to get board and stop funding three or four years into the process. An optimistic scenario would be a group of extremely wealth people, tens of billions of dollars in capital, and a decade or two. It isn't something you are going to crowdfund. It would require enough financially independent people capable and devoted enough to take the risk of moving to one of the poorest nations of earth and work tirelessly for the next decade or so to reform and modernize it from within. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: manfred on April 27, 2013, 08:30:33 PM Tuvalu, well i been there.
The country basically survives from an Australian, New zealand trust funds. Would they give up membership of world bank and asian develpment bank and risk relations form the hand who feeds them for bitcoins. Who is going to explain to them what a bitcoins is, most struggle to read a newspaper. The majority of the useful land is 1 meter above high tide make in the middle of the ocean. Who is paying for upgrading internet infrastructure in the middle of the ocean?? thousands of k's ocean cable to the nearest land. Tuvalu is a member of the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. Tuvalu maintains close relations with Fiji, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, South Korea, the United Kingdom and the European Union. It has diplomatic relations with the Republic of China (Taiwan); the ROC maintains the only resident embassy in Tuvalu and has a large assistance programme in the islands. Tuvalu is party to a treaty of friendship with the United States, The highest elevation is 4.6 metres (15 ft) above sea level on Niulakita, which gives Tuvalu the second-lowest maximum elevation of any country (after the Maldives). However, the highest elevations are typically in narrow storm dunes on the ocean side of the islands which are prone to overtopping in tropical cyclones, as occurred with Cyclone Bebe, which was a very early-season storm that passed through the Tuvaluan atolls in October 1972. Because of the low elevation, the islands that make up this nation are threatened by current and future sea level rise. Additionally, Tuvalu is annually affected by king tide events which peak towards the end of the austral summer, and raise the sea level higher than a normal high tide. As a result of historical sea level rise, the king tide events lead to flooding of low lying areas, which is compounded when sea levels are further raised by La Niña effects or local storms and waves. In the future, sea level rise may threaten to submerge the nation entirely as it is estimated that a sea level rise of 20–40 centimetres (8–16 inches) in the next 100 years could make Tuvalu uninhabitable. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 27, 2013, 08:31:22 PM what im saying is if they moved to the lowest gdp country in the world they could have probably already taken over the entire government. Arguably true. But the low GDP might not simply be because of a poor government, and the increased hardship involved would reduce the number of people who come. I mean, why aren't libertarians flooding into Somalia?Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 08:32:17 PM what im saying is if they moved to the lowest gdp country in the world they could have probably already taken over the entire government. Or not. You likely are understimating by a couple orders of magnitude the cost and complexity of such an operation. To become a citizen of Tuvalu (and most nations have similar requirements) you must be a resident for seven years AND renounce your existing citizenship. Not that easy to convince people to move to the ass end of nowhere at huge personal risk for hope that in a decade or so they will be able to form a capitalist utopia. Many citizens of an existing nation (poor or not) would not want mass immigration and would move to slow immigration and citizenship. To make it worthwhile for existing residents they have to also believe their lives will be improved. That means lots of spending on infrastructure, airports, schools, etc. Just the advocacy and planning stages would require significant investment and residency. Would you move there in the hopes some crowdfunded group on a forum didn't decide to get board and stop funding three or four years into the process. An optimistic scenario would be a group of extremely wealth people, tens of billions of dollars in capital, and a decade or two. It isn't something you are going to crowdfund. It would require enough financially independent people capable and devoted enough to take the risk of moving to one of the poorest nations of earth and work tirelessly for the next decade or so to reform and modernize it from within. im just talking about paying to get our guys elected to every important position of power. I mean how much could that really cost in tuvalu? Everything else may fall like dominoes from there. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: DeathAndTaxes on April 27, 2013, 08:33:29 PM im just talking about paying to get our guys elected to every important position of power. I mean how much could that really cost in tuvalu? Everything else may fall like dominoes from there. What guys? Are you a citizen? Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: LaggedOnUser on April 27, 2013, 08:42:59 PM Are you familiar with the idea of "charter cities", for example, Trujillo off the coast of Honduras? http://www.economist.com/node/21541392
More information here: http://chartercities.org/concept You can cooperate with existing governments to set up special economic zones with your own set of rules. It might be worth starting one of those, or joining an existing one as they get the ball rolling. I would favor one off the coast of Greece... they're broke enough they would probably sell you your own island! ;) Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: liberty90 on April 27, 2013, 09:33:46 PM http://www.seasteading.org/
http://blueseed.co/ Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: manfred on April 27, 2013, 09:36:53 PM Stock take:
Vatican City: no Monaco: no San Marino: no Tuvalu: no Tonga: no Pitcoin Islands: no Marshall Islands: no Micronesia: no Kiribati: no Iceland: no Nauru: unlikely* no Greenland: ? Slab City:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vVCSUafFVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vVCSUafFVI): no Freetown Christiania;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania): no Principality of Hutt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River): no http://www.wirtland.com/ (http://www.wirtland.com/): no feedback yet http://chartercities.org/concept (http://chartercities.org/concept): no feedback yet http://www.seasteading.org/ (http://www.seasteading.org/): no http://blueseed.co/ (http://blueseed.co/): no *Nauru currently lacks money to perform many of the basic functions of government; for example, the National Bank of Nauru is insolvent. There are no personal taxes in Nauru. The unemployment rate is estimated to be 90 percent, and of those who have jobs, the government employs 95 percent Tourism is not a major contributor to the economy In the 1990s, Nauru became a tax haven and offered passports to foreign nationals for a fee, The inter-governmental Financial Action Task Force on Money Laundering (FATF) identified Nauru as one of 15 "non-cooperative" countries in its fight against money laundering. During the 1990s, it was possible to establish a licensed bank in Nauru for only $25,000 with no other requirements. From 2001 to 2008, it accepted aid from the Australian Government in exchange for housing the Nauru detention centre. (reopend 2012) There are no banks or ATMs in Nauru Nauru had 9,378 residents as of July 2011. The country is a member of the United Nations. The Currency in use is the Australian dollar (AUD) GDP 2006 estimate Total $36.9 million Nauruans are the most obese people in the world. Nauru is the world's smallest republic. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: wachtwoord on April 27, 2013, 09:56:39 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Current_terrae_nullius Well, I suppose we could colonize mars. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123486-Mars-Colonization-Mission-Now-Taking-Applications Enjoy :) Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 27, 2013, 11:01:06 PM Stock take: Vatican City: no Monaco: no San Marino: no Tuvalu: no Tonga: no Pitcoin Islands: no Marshall Islands: no Micronesia: no Kiribati: no Create country: no Slab City:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vVCSUafFVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vVCSUafFVI): no Freetown Christiania;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania): no Principality of Hutt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River): no http://www.wirtland.com/ (http://www.wirtland.com/): no feedback yet http://chartercities.org/concept (http://chartercities.org/concept): no feedback yet http://www.seasteading.org/ (http://www.seasteading.org/): no feedback yet http://blueseed.co/ (http://blueseed.co/): no feedback yet Nauru?? Nauru currently lacks money to perform many of the basic functions of government; for example, the National Bank of Nauru is insolvent. There are no personal taxes in Nauru. The unemployment rate is estimated to be 90 percent, and of those who have jobs, the government employs 95 percent Tourism is not a major contributor to the economy In the 1990s, Nauru became a tax haven and offered passports to foreign nationals for a fee, The inter-governmental Financial Action Task Force on Money Laundering (FATF) identified Nauru as one of 15 "non-cooperative" countries in its fight against money laundering. During the 1990s, it was possible to establish a licensed bank in Nauru for only $25,000 with no other requirements. From 2001 to 2008, it accepted aid from the Australian Government in exchange for housing the Nauru detention centre. (reopend 2012) Nauru had 9,378 residents as of July 2011. The country is a member of the United Nations. The Currency in use is the Australian dollar (AUD) GDP 2006 estimate Total $36.9 million Nauruans are the most obese people in the world. Nauru is the world's smallest republic. Lets back the backpacks! Nauru wow i really like it! all the free state people should have moved there. I move to declare nauru as bitcoin island! Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: BTCLuke on April 28, 2013, 04:33:37 AM This may be a long post, but I promise it's going to be the best one you've read this week.
Taking over any land that governments can reach is simply not going to have a happy ending. I'm sorry. Let's say you crowdsource enough to flat-out buy land, with full soveriegn rights, from a poor country like Honduras or an island like Nauru... Your first problem is that the other countries of the world won't recognize you as a country, and can sanction the hell out of you if not flat out murder you in your sleep without any consequences whatsoever. Nations are most definitely an "old boy's club" like someone else here said before. They do not like competition in the least. They have a loooong history of simply invading the weaker nations and start-up attempts, if there is event the smallest resource there worth taking. Which brings us to the second, bigger problem... Even if you have no resources whatsoever, and set up shop on an empty sandbar 1 foot above high tide directly on the equator in the middle of the pacific, you now face the problem of not wanting to be successful. This problem will stop any variation of the "new colony" idea, even seasteading! Simply put, A completely free economy will rapidly become extremely valuable. -And then it's lunchtime, and you're the main course. I was active in Seasteading for years. I even built some great little floating models and wrote some nice essays... & I thought if we could get far enough out, inbetween the continents so we weren't closer to any one big country, then we'd be safe enough, but then I started reading history and figuring out what the timeline of such a colony would look like. The problem all boils down to success being a bad thing. You don't want to go out there to live like Gilligan, right? But if you succeed in building a capitalist society without paying taxes to another nation for protection, then you are doomed. You'll have become exactly what they would find most easy and most profitable to conquer. Nations are simply evil and have no problems killing every last person on this settlement, EVEN ONE ON MARS, because their guns are bigger than ours and they really just don't like losing. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 04:46:47 AM This may be a long post, but I promise it's going to be the best one you've read this week. I was skeptical. I shouldn't have been. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: manfred on April 28, 2013, 10:18:55 AM Now Iceland is the frontrunner to have Crypto money first. Good location, way better than Nauru people know and accept bitcoins and the pirate party already has a say about it in parliament.
http://falkvinge.net/2013/04/28/icelandic-pirate-party-wins-enters-parliament/ Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: benjamindees on April 28, 2013, 01:29:10 PM Of course decentralization is preferable, when it's possible to achieve goals in a decentralized way. Sometimes it just isn't. Sometimes it might be better to voluntarily band together for support. But the dilemma then becomes "what is the line between voluntary and involuntary centralization?"
That was the entire insight of Keynesianism, and the reason the 20th century was marked by centralization and warfare. Keynes said "sometimes it's better to band together when under attack," and a bunch of megalomaniacs interpreted this as "create constant attacks as a means of centralization and control." So, that's what we got. But the question isn't between centralization versus decentralization, per se. It's between voluntary versus involuntary. Look at Bitcoin. I say that Bitcoin is a voluntary system and that individuals own and control their Bitcoins. Some people say that Bitcoin is a democratic system and that ownership of Bitcoins is decided by the whim of the network majority. Bitcoin was supposed to be decentralized. Now it has a government-sanctioned foundation, and a de-facto client, and a registered trademark, and a single major exchange, and a group of "core" developers, and official spokespersons, and regulators and investors who sit around all day trying to make the price of Bitcoins go up so that they can cash out and pay taxes instead of actually using Bitcoins to trade and to build a real economy. As long as we all agree that decentralization is the goal, and we recognize the threats to Bitcoin achieving that goal and agree that voluntarism is a pre-requisite to temporary or conditional co-operation, it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis for each of us with regards to how much, and what kinds, of centralization we are willing to tolerate. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 01:30:04 PM Of course decentralization is preferable, when it's possible to achieve goals in a decentralized way. Sometimes it just isn't. Name 3. Hell, name 1. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: benjamindees on April 28, 2013, 01:39:16 PM Of course decentralization is preferable, when it's possible to achieve goals in a decentralized way. Sometimes it just isn't. Name 3. Hell, name 1. If you have a gallon of milk in your refrigerator, you relied on some degree of centralization to get it there. It didn't come out of a cow in your backyard. It came out of a cow on a big farm, and was processed and packaged in a big facility, and was carried through a big distribution network to a big grocery store operating on fossil fuels that came from a big mine or a big oilfield, protected and controlled by a big government with a big military, paid for by a big monetary system. Replacing the monetary system doesn't change any of the rest of that overnight. Because if it had come out of your backyard, you would have had to have foregone some other luxury in order to have achieved that. Your entire standard of living is dependent upon some degree of centralization. It's all around you. Just open your eyes and look. But, ultimately, you decide how much centralization you will put up with. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 01:49:55 PM Of course decentralization is preferable, when it's possible to achieve goals in a decentralized way. Sometimes it just isn't. Name 3. Hell, name 1. If you have a gallon of milk in your refrigerator, you relied on some degree of centralization to get it there. It didn't come out of a cow in your backyard. Yes, the cow lived at a farm, but it's not the only farm. Yes, the milk was bottled at a plant, but it's not the only plant. Yes, I bought the milk at a store, but it's not the only store. I also relied on a great degree of decentralization in order to get my milk, and because it is so decentralized, the milk was cheaper than if it had all been produced on a central supply chain. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 02:51:51 PM http://www.seasteading.org/ http://blueseed.co/ these are both kinda dumb ideas i think. What we should instead do is like the free staters. Except we move to a very small sovereign state. One so small that we could easily take over the highest law of the land. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru with google maps. its SO tiny and remote. It has financial trouble so we could probably broker a pretty cheap bulk deal with the existing nauru power elite :P for citizenship. No begging and scraping around for international recognition of legitimate sovereignty, we would have our own totally legitimate internationally recognized sovereign nation. Of course you can insert any nation similar to nauru who is REALLY small and will give the cheapest citizenship. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 02:55:47 PM Of course decentralization is preferable, when it's possible to achieve goals in a decentralized way. Sometimes it just isn't. Name 3. Hell, name 1. myrkul read my last post. Do you want to help me organize a libertarian exodus to nauru so we can take over the government and vote in ron paul as president (just not of the united states). C'mon man we gotta do this! our 21 km2 plot of land will out shine the entire globe with the full might of true free market capitalism. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 02:59:17 PM Of course decentralization is preferable, when it's possible to achieve goals in a decentralized way. Sometimes it just isn't. Name 3. Hell, name 1. myrkul read my last post. Do you want to help me organize a libertarian exodus to nauru so we can take over the government and vote in ron paul as president (just not of the united states). C'mon man we gotta do this! Our 21 km2 plot of land will out shine the entire globe with the full might of true free market capitalism. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: btceic on April 28, 2013, 03:00:28 PM Does a large boat/ship in international waters count?
Or how about we purchase a defunct oil rig? ----- Edited for spelling. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 03:03:09 PM Does a large boat/ship in international waters count? Or how about we purchase a defunct oil rig? ----- Edited for spelling. I think we would be very well advised just to attempt to take over an established sovereign instead of trying to gain international recognition on an oil platform or a boat. check out nauru, its almost as small as a large boat and its internationally recolonized by pretty much every governing body in the world as a totally legit sovereign. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: btceic on April 28, 2013, 03:07:43 PM Does a large boat/ship in international waters count? Or how about we purchase a defunct oil rig? ----- Edited for spelling. I think we would be very well advised just to attempt to take over an established sovereign instead of trying to gain international recognition on an oil platform or a boat. check out nauru, its almost as small as a large boat and its internationally recolonized by pretty much every governing body in the world as a totally legit sovereign. Nauru, officially the Republic of Nauru and formerly known as Pleasant Island, is an island country in Micronesia in the South Pacific. Its nearest neighbour is Banaba Island in Kiribati, 300 kilometres to the east. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 03:09:06 PM Of course decentralization is preferable, when it's possible to achieve goals in a decentralized way. Sometimes it just isn't. Name 3. Hell, name 1. myrkul read my last post. Do you want to help me organize a libertarian exodus to nauru so we can take over the government and vote in ron paul as president (just not of the united states). C'mon man we gotta do this! Our 21 km2 plot of land will out shine the entire globe with the full might of true free market capitalism. he makes a big error here. He says "without paying taxes to another nation for protection, then you are doomed" No one suggested not purchasing defense. But if we get to purchase it from any sovereign in the world than it will, technically, be being provided to us by a competitive market. We can simply fly a flag of convenience and probably pay out the fucking nose for it, but still it would be worth it. plus in every other failed attempt that i know of it was not the same thing that i am proposing. a) it was in the past that everyone tried to create new sovereigns. b) it was before the internet, now the public can see government crimes and the people on this island would not be foreigners, they would be peoples relatives from all over the world. also sorry i keep adding to this. We dont have to step on anyones toes. Its not like we would be a harbor for pirates, digital or otherwise. We wouldnt have to do anything more than make something awesome and sell it abroad to sustain ourselves. Import transistors and plastic export computers. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: btceic on April 28, 2013, 03:11:55 PM http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Nauru_on_the_globe_%28Polynesia_centered%29.svg/1000px-Nauru_on_the_globe_%28Polynesia_centered%29.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Nauru_on_the_globe_%28Polynesia_centered%29.svg/1000px-Nauru_on_the_globe_%28Polynesia_centered%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: btceic on April 28, 2013, 03:17:12 PM http://www.howtobuyaprivateisland.com/starting-your-own-country.htm
Quote "Can I start my own country" is frequently asked by people interested in private islands. Despite all the hopeful dictators and Kool-Aid drinkers out there, it's pretty difficult to start your own country. Pirate Island Islands are a natural choice for starting a country. Islands create a sense of autonomy and independence because their border is already clearly defined. However, there are no undiscovered or unclaimed islands on the planet. Every island on the planet falls under the jurisdiction of one country or another. And countries are naturally quite protective of their territories. You cannot buy an island from a country and claim independence anymore than you can declare sovereignty from your armchair inside a suburban bungalow. However, you may be able to find a country that is so poor or so corrupt that it would surrender sovereignty over an island in exchange for cash. If you can find a spot that exists outside the territorial waters of any country, you could build your own island. Alternatively, you could create a floating city on a ship. A 'citizen' on a floating city in international waters could be a citizen of the world. Cautionary Tales of Those Who Tried sealand passport People have tried to get around the endless problems of sovereignty by building their own islands, through sand reclamation or floating platforms, often ships. Regardless of where you build, or float, you will probably land in the hot territorial waters of one country or another. Building an island from scratch, like the failed World island project in Dubai, requires relatively shallow waters. If you're far enough offshore to be outside territorial waters, you will need an awful lot of sand (and money) to reach the bottom. If you should decide to take over a small island and create your own banana republic, be prepared to defend yourself against a large neighbouring country who will not take your invasion lightly. Principality of Sealand The Principality of Sealand, home to the Bates family since 1967, is a dilapidated and algae covered eyesore, 10 miles off the coast of Suffolk, England. Sealand's claims to sovereignty aren't recognized by any country, but Sealand is still managed (and defended with gunfire if necessary) by the Bates family as though it were recognized. In 1975, Paddy Roy Bates introduced a constitution, flag, national anthem, currency and passports to Sealand. In 2000, HavenCo was said to have established a secure offshore data haven on Sealand, intended to be the Cayman Islands of hosting. HavenCo's Acceptable Use Policy prohibited child pornography, spamming, and malicious hacking, but all other content was acceptable. After HavenCo collapsed, Sealand's government is building a new online casino expected to be open by 2012. Thirty employees would work in Sealand. We'll see. Minerva Reefs Claiming sovereignty over an island is nearly impossible, but that hasn't stopped a few people from trying in recent history. Libertarian millionaire Michael Oliver attempted to create a sovereign micronation called Minerva by reclaiming underwater reefs in the Pacific in the 1970s. The site was located about 400 miles south of Fiji and 250 miles west of Tonga. Oliver shipped in some sand from Australia and planted his flag. After Oliver had staked his claim by sending out a declaration of independence to neighbouring countries, Tonga responded to Oliver by dispatching an angry and armed envoy of Tongans to defend their turf. Minerva's flag was unceremoniously removed and Tonga laid real claim to the reef. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 03:21:10 PM http://www.howtobuyaprivateisland.com/starting-your-own-country.htm Quote "Can I start my own country" is frequently asked by people interested in private islands. Despite all the hopeful dictators and Kool-Aid drinkers out there, it's pretty difficult to start your own country. Pirate Island Islands are a natural choice for starting a country. Islands create a sense of autonomy and independence because their border is already clearly defined. However, there are no undiscovered or unclaimed islands on the planet. Every island on the planet falls under the jurisdiction of one country or another. And countries are naturally quite protective of their territories. You cannot buy an island from a country and claim independence anymore than you can declare sovereignty from your armchair inside a suburban bungalow. However, you may be able to find a country that is so poor or so corrupt that it would surrender sovereignty over an island in exchange for cash. If you can find a spot that exists outside the territorial waters of any country, you could build your own island. Alternatively, you could create a floating city on a ship. A 'citizen' on a floating city in international waters could be a citizen of the world. Cautionary Tales of Those Who Tried sealand passport People have tried to get around the endless problems of sovereignty by building their own islands, through sand reclamation or floating platforms, often ships. Regardless of where you build, or float, you will probably land in the hot territorial waters of one country or another. Building an island from scratch, like the failed World island project in Dubai, requires relatively shallow waters. If you're far enough offshore to be outside territorial waters, you will need an awful lot of sand (and money) to reach the bottom. If you should decide to take over a small island and create your own banana republic, be prepared to defend yourself against a large neighbouring country who will not take your invasion lightly. Principality of Sealand The Principality of Sealand, home to the Bates family since 1967, is a dilapidated and algae covered eyesore, 10 miles off the coast of Suffolk, England. Sealand's claims to sovereignty aren't recognized by any country, but Sealand is still managed (and defended with gunfire if necessary) by the Bates family as though it were recognized. In 1975, Paddy Roy Bates introduced a constitution, flag, national anthem, currency and passports to Sealand. In 2000, HavenCo was said to have established a secure offshore data haven on Sealand, intended to be the Cayman Islands of hosting. HavenCo's Acceptable Use Policy prohibited child pornography, spamming, and malicious hacking, but all other content was acceptable. After HavenCo collapsed, Sealand's government is building a new online casino expected to be open by 2012. Thirty employees would work in Sealand. We'll see. Minerva Reefs Claiming sovereignty over an island is nearly impossible, but that hasn't stopped a few people from trying in recent history. Libertarian millionaire Michael Oliver attempted to create a sovereign micronation called Minerva by reclaiming underwater reefs in the Pacific in the 1970s. The site was located about 400 miles south of Fiji and 250 miles west of Tonga. Oliver shipped in some sand from Australia and planted his flag. After Oliver had staked his claim by sending out a declaration of independence to neighbouring countries, Tonga responded to Oliver by dispatching an angry and armed envoy of Tongans to defend their turf. Minerva's flag was unceremoniously removed and Tonga laid real claim to the reef. Trying to start our own country is a bad idea. We would be well advised to simply all move to an existing real country. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 03:21:30 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ Quote New Hampshire legislators are only paid a salary of $100 per year, helping ensure the existence of a citizen legislature committed to public service, unlike every other state. so i can buy them to make laws for me?Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 03:22:27 PM Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game. That's something I've never heard before. http://freestateproject.org/ Quote New Hampshire legislators are only paid a salary of $100 per year, helping ensure the existence of a citizen legislature committed to public service, unlike every other state. so i can buy them to make laws for me?probably. 99% of people are for sale for the right price. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: btceic on April 28, 2013, 03:23:20 PM More Info:
http://www.worldislandinfo.com/Starting%20island%20country.html Quote Starting Your Own Island Country “Let’s blow this fascist popsicle stand! Purchase a small island somewhere, and start our own country.” – Montgomery Burns People thinking about forming their own nation often turn to islands: they appeal to people’s sense of dominion, and their borders are clear. One just might get away from it all, and start something new. But a new island country requires an island, and citizens, and there difficulties begin. Problems Four problems are paramount: 1. There are no undiscovered or unclaimed islands—with one partial exception. 2. Existing countries are quite protective of their sovereignty and territorial integrity. 3. There is no recognized process for forming your own country, and it comes essentially down to power. 4. It is difficult to obtain a population for a startup country. Solutions….and more problems People have tried to get around these problems in a variety of ways. Problem 1: No undiscovered islands ● Since existing islands are claimed, some conclude that they should just build new ones. ● However, it is quite difficult to find suitable places that do not fall under some kind of national jurisdiction. If you are making your own land, it has to be outside countries’ territorial waters (generally 12 miles offshore) and exclusive economic zones (generally 200 miles from land)—and there is little or no shallow water outside of such zones. For instance, the would-be Principality of New Utopia is planned for the Misteriosa Bank in the Caribbean—but it seems to be in the Exclusive Economic Zones of both Honduras and the Cayman Islands (UK). Both countries have signed the Law of the Sea Treaty, which gives them power to regulate new island creation. ● The partial exception to the dearth of unclaimed territory is Antarctica, which is essentially international, with nations’ territorial claims effectively suspended. But the continent is supervised by all the most powerful countries on the planet, and they would not let a startup country grab some of it. ● (There is a cheat to the land problem, in the eyes of the island purist: build a floating island city—there are several schemes kicking around. But these would be mere ships, in truth. And there is the oil rig solution, notably represented by “Sealand,” a surplus-gun-platform “country” off the coast of England.) Problem 2: Existing countries want their islands ● You can buy islands in many countries, but that means that you are a landowner, not a separate country. ● While most countries will not surrender sovereignty over a piece of land, it might be possible to find one so poor or corrupt that it would do so. Some right-wing Americans thought Haiti fit the bill a couple of decades ago, and attempted to buy the Île de la Tortue (Tortuga Island) off the northern coast. They were going to form the usual libertarian paradise, but even Haiti proved insufficiently abject to fall for the scheme. (The fate of thousands of Haitians already living on the island was unclear.) ● You can try to take an island by force, but fortunately for the small states of the Pacific and the Caribbean there are powerful countries that prevent that sort of thing. Problem 3: No process for forming new countries ● The best solution is to become a leader in an island that might like to break away from its country: Nevis, of St. Kitts-Nevis, for instance. The separate islands of the Comoros have each achieved substantial autonomy under their own leaders in recent years. And East Timor has made the transition to sovereign nation. ● You still need recognition from the international community. And that requires sympathy, triggered by oppression of your little island, or at least popular support for its breaking away. ● Barring that, you can try to seize an island nation whole. This has been attempted by mercenaries in the Comoros (with some success), Vanuatu, and the Maldives. Once again, it runs into the problem of great power protectors. Problem 4: Need for citizens ● The breakaway inhabited island solves this problem, but otherwise you have to convince people to come live on your island. ● Build-your-own-island schemes typically dangle libertarian freedom as their lure. ● Forming your own cult is promising. A breakaway Mormon sect in the mid-19th century took this route, briefly declaring Beaver Island in Lake Michigan to be their kingdom. But cults tend to be unstable and draw the attention of authorities quickly. So starting your own island country is not easy. As a consolation, you might buy one of the many uninhabited islands in a tolerant country such as the US, Britain, or Canada and declare your own “nation.” If you don’t cross certain legal lines, you may get away with a lot. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 03:34:07 PM More Info: http://www.worldislandinfo.com/Starting%20island%20country.html Quote Starting Your Own Island Country “Let’s blow this fascist popsicle stand! Purchase a small island somewhere, and start our own country.” – Montgomery Burns People thinking about forming their own nation often turn to islands: they appeal to people’s sense of dominion, and their borders are clear. One just might get away from it all, and start something new. But a new island country requires an island, and citizens, and there difficulties begin. Problems Four problems are paramount: 1. There are no undiscovered or unclaimed islands—with one partial exception. 2. Existing countries are quite protective of their sovereignty and territorial integrity. 3. There is no recognized process for forming your own country, and it comes essentially down to power. 4. It is difficult to obtain a population for a startup country. Solutions….and more problems People have tried to get around these problems in a variety of ways. Problem 1: No undiscovered islands ● Since existing islands are claimed, some conclude that they should just build new ones. ● However, it is quite difficult to find suitable places that do not fall under some kind of national jurisdiction. If you are making your own land, it has to be outside countries’ territorial waters (generally 12 miles offshore) and exclusive economic zones (generally 200 miles from land)—and there is little or no shallow water outside of such zones. For instance, the would-be Principality of New Utopia is planned for the Misteriosa Bank in the Caribbean—but it seems to be in the Exclusive Economic Zones of both Honduras and the Cayman Islands (UK). Both countries have signed the Law of the Sea Treaty, which gives them power to regulate new island creation. ● The partial exception to the dearth of unclaimed territory is Antarctica, which is essentially international, with nations’ territorial claims effectively suspended. But the continent is supervised by all the most powerful countries on the planet, and they would not let a startup country grab some of it. ● (There is a cheat to the land problem, in the eyes of the island purist: build a floating island city—there are several schemes kicking around. But these would be mere ships, in truth. And there is the oil rig solution, notably represented by “Sealand,” a surplus-gun-platform “country” off the coast of England.) Problem 2: Existing countries want their islands ● You can buy islands in many countries, but that means that you are a landowner, not a separate country. ● While most countries will not surrender sovereignty over a piece of land, it might be possible to find one so poor or corrupt that it would do so. Some right-wing Americans thought Haiti fit the bill a couple of decades ago, and attempted to buy the Île de la Tortue (Tortuga Island) off the northern coast. They were going to form the usual libertarian paradise, but even Haiti proved insufficiently abject to fall for the scheme. (The fate of thousands of Haitians already living on the island was unclear.) ● You can try to take an island by force, but fortunately for the small states of the Pacific and the Caribbean there are powerful countries that prevent that sort of thing. Problem 3: No process for forming new countries ● The best solution is to become a leader in an island that might like to break away from its country: Nevis, of St. Kitts-Nevis, for instance. The separate islands of the Comoros have each achieved substantial autonomy under their own leaders in recent years. And East Timor has made the transition to sovereign nation. ● You still need recognition from the international community. And that requires sympathy, triggered by oppression of your little island, or at least popular support for its breaking away. ● Barring that, you can try to seize an island nation whole. This has been attempted by mercenaries in the Comoros (with some success), Vanuatu, and the Maldives. Once again, it runs into the problem of great power protectors. Problem 4: Need for citizens ● The breakaway inhabited island solves this problem, but otherwise you have to convince people to come live on your island. ● Build-your-own-island schemes typically dangle libertarian freedom as their lure. ● Forming your own cult is promising. A breakaway Mormon sect in the mid-19th century took this route, briefly declaring Beaver Island in Lake Michigan to be their kingdom. But cults tend to be unstable and draw the attention of authorities quickly. So starting your own island country is not easy. As a consolation, you might buy one of the many uninhabited islands in a tolerant country such as the US, Britain, or Canada and declare your own “nation.” If you don’t cross certain legal lines, you may get away with a lot. yes thats why i said starting a country is a bad idea. Lets instead get a bunch of libertarians to move to an existing country that is very small. Like the free state project only we could actually take over a soveriegn government not a city council. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: wachtwoord on April 28, 2013, 05:48:42 PM Actually the conclusion of all this is quite simple. To do any of this (start a new country or change a current one to adopt the Libertarian views) quickly requires a revolution (and all the disadvantages associated with a revolution.
The only other solution is to change society slowly. The downside of this is it takes time. I am going to follow the first approach (Libertarian viewpoints are superior so they will prevail in the long run). If anyone attempt the first approach and success in stable fashion (as in the end result is stable) it is quite likely I will become a citizen. I believe there are many people like me so point 4 on your list is unlikely to be a problem. The first 3 are however ;) Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 06:43:09 PM Actually the conclusion of all this is quite simple. To do any of this (start a new country or change a current one to adopt the Libertarian views) quickly requires a revolution (and all the disadvantages associated with a revolution. The only other solution is to change society slowly. The downside of this is it takes time. I am going to follow the first approach (Libertarian viewpoints are superior so they will prevail in the long run). If anyone attempt the first approach and success in stable fashion (as in the end result is stable) it is quite likely I will become a citizen. I believe there are many people like me so point 4 on your list is unlikely to be a problem. The first 3 are however ;) if it was small enough of a country we could have the so called revolution in the voting booth. It could actually happen, not in the us but in a country with a population of 10k you could very easily have an entirely non violent revolution, in the near term, by throwing some cash around. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: BTCLuke on April 28, 2013, 07:27:49 PM Anon136, your heart is in the right place, and I applaud your attempts to find a new way out of our slavery.
Unfortunately you still have too much faith in nations. They are ruthless, murdering barbarians that won't stand for any part of these answers. The sooner you see them for what they really are, the sooner you'll know that you can't run and you can't hide... They'll find and destroy you anyway. he makes a big error here. He says "without paying taxes to another nation for protection, then you are doomed" No one suggested not purchasing defense. I suggest that purchasing defense is a naive concept. If nations won't sell you land because of their old boy's club, what makes you think one will sell you security from all the other countries in their club?That pretty much makes the country who sells such to you an enemy of the rest of the planet. They don't want to lose their hard-earned relationships with the others, or worse yet, start a war, over little old us... Even if we pay them astronomical fees. But if we get to purchase it from any sovereign in the world than it will, technically, be being provided to us by a competitive market. We can simply fly a flag of convenience and probably pay out the fucking nose for it, but still it would be worth it. If you tightly align yourself with one country in this manner though, what you REALLY need is the rest of the world's protection from IT.Imagine if the Free State Project got really popular... All the libertarians moved there and the state laws all changed to something pretty much opposite of the federal laws? Worse yet, the low-tax, high-entrepreneur environment would make our state extremely rich while the rest of the country was in steep decline. Do you think Obomba would stand for it? Do you think the dumbasses in the other 49 states would either? There is in fact, a precedent for this exact situation in the USA. It happened in 1861... And in more than one state... They got 11 states together, thinking they had safety in numbers. To my best knowledge, that didn't turn out too well for the states that were trying to make new laws for themselves. Again, success is your enemy when dealing with nations, because nations always will have more guns. plus in every other failed attempt that i know of it was not the same thing that i am proposing. a) it was in the past that everyone tried to create new sovereigns. This really doesn't help your point. If anything, people are more stupid and trained to enjoy socialism today.b) it was before the internet, now the public can see government crimes and the people on this island would not be foreigners, they would be peoples relatives from all over the world. Here's the thing though about the internet: Those who aren't suspicious of their government won't be watching for this. They won't be using a non-state-controlled internet, they won't be searching keywords that have anything to do with your movement, and the states damn sure won't be reporting any part of your efforts in the mainstream media.The internet will be useful when the day comes that we've completely bypassed the ISPs with mesh networking. We're just one WiFi specification away from being able to do that now. But even when ISPs no longer exist, and the state can't control the media so effectively, there still has to be a person-to-person effort to get people to not trust their government enough to care... That will take a long time and a lot of effort by a hell of a lot of people, period. No webcam show of a libertarian paradise will ever be popular here, not before each person here is 'converted' directly first and the internet has no more ISPs. also sorry i keep adding to this. We dont have to step on anyones toes. Its not like we would be a harbor for pirates, digital or otherwise. This is uber-naive too. Governments will say that you do, and then attack you for that reason regardless of the truth. Not to mention the 'turrists you're harboring too! Even if you try your hardest to not let any of this element in; your lax laws will easily let them slip right in amongst you, and of course your country would be the most desireable place for them to go now, wouldn't it? Might as well officially let them all in. It will make no difference at all. if it was small enough of a country we could have the so called revolution in the voting booth. Again with the Naivety... Voting booths don't elect leaders! They only give the illusion of doing so, to keep existing populations from revolting.Again, your heart is in the right place but these answers are not going to work simply because the world is a much more evil and twisted place than you seem to believe. I recommend reading more history. We're not the first to seek for these answers. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 08:33:24 PM I think your strongest point here was that nations wouldnt want to risk their diplomatic relationships with other nations inorder to provide us with defense. This may very well be correct. But what about another strategy.
Still i want you to consider that perhaps other massacres by western governments went unnoticed because the victims were foreigners. Perhaps this time it would be different. Any first world country that attacked us would have tons of its own people living on our island since people would come from every where in the world. Perhaps if they tried to attack us people would take notice, perhaps people would go to the internet specifically to read about this story if it wasnt covered on the news. after all MANY people would personally know people who lived on the island. That could make things different. also im not as naive as you think. I know that nations are a ruthless old boys club. Im not suggesting that we build a nation on good will. Im suggesting that we hammer out mechanisms that make it not in their interest to attack us, if that is possible which maybe it isnt. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 08:35:37 PM Still i want you to consider that perhaps other massacres by western governments went unnoticed because the victims were foreigners. Perhaps this time it would be different. Any first world country that attacked us would have tons of its own people living on our island since people would come from every where in the world. Perhaps if they tried to attack us people would take notice, perhaps people would go to the internet specifically to read about this story if it wasnt covered on the news. after all MANY people would personally know people who lived on the island. That could make things different. Who said it would be a first world country?Just about any 3rd world nation would gladly nuke us off the planet to curry favor with one of the big boys. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 09:03:23 PM Still i want you to consider that perhaps other massacres by western governments went unnoticed because the victims were foreigners. Perhaps this time it would be different. Any first world country that attacked us would have tons of its own people living on our island since people would come from every where in the world. Perhaps if they tried to attack us people would take notice, perhaps people would go to the internet specifically to read about this story if it wasnt covered on the news. after all MANY people would personally know people who lived on the island. That could make things different. Who said it would be a first world country?Just about any 3rd world nation would gladly nuke us off the planet to curry favor with one of the big boys. right, i think we would be capable of defending ourselves against these sorts of people. you know somolian pirates and what not i think we could handle. Of course i could be wrong. and idk about a nuke that was handed off to a third world country by a first world country intorder to attack us. Thats a tricky one but its the sort of thing we should be talking about. How likely is it really? for that matter how much are governments really going to care about 10,000 libertarians minding their own business out in the middle of no where? sure they ought to care but do they have the foresight to understand why they ought to care? Its a similar thing to bitcoin, when its small it isnt worth caring about and as soon as it isnt small anymore it becomes too costly to deal with which creates a curve where it is never in their interest, in the short term, to deal with us. And governments always think in the short term. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 09:18:47 PM Still i want you to consider that perhaps other massacres by western governments went unnoticed because the victims were foreigners. Perhaps this time it would be different. Any first world country that attacked us would have tons of its own people living on our island since people would come from every where in the world. Perhaps if they tried to attack us people would take notice, perhaps people would go to the internet specifically to read about this story if it wasnt covered on the news. after all MANY people would personally know people who lived on the island. That could make things different. Who said it would be a first world country?Just about any 3rd world nation would gladly nuke us off the planet to curry favor with one of the big boys. right, i think we would be capable of defending ourselves against these sorts of people. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 28, 2013, 09:22:14 PM Still i want you to consider that perhaps other massacres by western governments went unnoticed because the victims were foreigners. Perhaps this time it would be different. Any first world country that attacked us would have tons of its own people living on our island since people would come from every where in the world. Perhaps if they tried to attack us people would take notice, perhaps people would go to the internet specifically to read about this story if it wasnt covered on the news. after all MANY people would personally know people who lived on the island. That could make things different. Who said it would be a first world country?Just about any 3rd world nation would gladly nuke us off the planet to curry favor with one of the big boys. right, i think we would be capable of defending ourselves against these sorts of people. yea, all gathering togater like that in the same place would make us vulnerable. if we are spread out all over the world communicating through darknets and building a global economy out of anarchic crypto-currencies than we stay decentralized and avoid single points of failure. Its sad though, i want to build my own walled city so badly :'( Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 09:25:25 PM Still i want you to consider that perhaps other massacres by western governments went unnoticed because the victims were foreigners. Perhaps this time it would be different. Any first world country that attacked us would have tons of its own people living on our island since people would come from every where in the world. Perhaps if they tried to attack us people would take notice, perhaps people would go to the internet specifically to read about this story if it wasnt covered on the news. after all MANY people would personally know people who lived on the island. That could make things different. Who said it would be a first world country?Just about any 3rd world nation would gladly nuke us off the planet to curry favor with one of the big boys. right, i think we would be capable of defending ourselves against these sorts of people. yea, all gathering togater like that in the same place would make us vulnerable. if we are spread out all over the world communicating through darknets and building a global economy out of anarchic crypto-currencies than we stay decentralized and avoid single points of failure. Its sad though, i want to build my own walled city so badly :'( Or start a similar plan to go to the Moon. Or Ceres. No AnCap island nation on Earth, I'm sorry. The nation-states have this one all sewn up. The only way to get to there from here is for them to go away, or for us to leave. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: BTCLuke on April 29, 2013, 01:51:44 AM Still i want you to consider that perhaps other massacres by western governments went unnoticed because the victims were foreigners. The south weren't foreigners to Lincoln. He'd lived in New Orleans himself!I could likely dig up a half dozen other examples too why the victims of national conquest don't have to be foreign, but surely you get the point... Nations are simply ruthless, and always will be so. Whenever you create a position of power, such as head of a state, all it takes is a few terms for the most Palpatine-like among the country to rise to that position. There is no way around this except for Anarchy. Judging by your Avatar, I think we're together on this much... So why is it so hard for you to see that the whole world is populated by countries run by these evil bastards, and don't want your free society to threaten their rule in any small way? Perhaps this time it would be different. Any first world country that attacked us would have tons of its own people living on our island since people would come from every where in the world. Perhaps if they tried to attack us people would take notice, perhaps people would go to the internet specifically to read about this story if it wasnt covered on the news. after all MANY people would personally know people who lived on the island. That could make things different. When the internet is more free we'll be able to have that to an extent... But even once we do, we'd need a heck of a lot more than friends and family back home to care about us to save us from nations' wrath... These people may individually care about you, but they obviously don't give two farts in the wind about freedom from their slavery or else they'd be joining you.They'll just think you're fruity, and won't be too surprised when the mainstream media tells them that some silly calamity befell your island and you sadly died because you're a shortsighted fruitcake. also im not as naive as you think. I know that nations are a ruthless old boys club. Im not suggesting that we build a nation on good will. Im suggesting that we hammer out mechanisms that make it not in their interest to attack us, if that is possible which maybe it isnt. I tried that line of thought for a loooong time with the seasteaders. Trust me, it isn't. Quote from: Anon136 yea, all gathering togater like that in the same place would make us vulnerable. if we are spread out all over the world communicating through darknets and building a global economy out of anarchic crypto-currencies than we stay decentralized and avoid single points of failure. Its sad though, i want to build my own walled city so badly :'( Thank goodness you're starting to come around. I'd love to see the walled city too, but until you can afford bigger guns than the biggest nation's guns, there is no way to defend those walls.http://applicants.mars-one.com/ Moonsteading appealed to me for a bit too, but then I remembered some Arthur C Clarke... Or start a similar plan to go to the Moon. Or Ceres. No AnCap island nation on Earth, I'm sorry. The nation-states have this one all sewn up. The only way to get to there from here is for them to go away, or for us to leave. Moving an existing asteroid's path ever so gently would give them a way to both destroy all life on our new habitat, AND claim it was an act of nature. Besides, if we can get there, and their piggybank is bigger than ours, what's to stop them from getting there soon afterwards, claiming the whole moon/planet, and declaring us outlaws over there? You can't run into space, either. You can only wake people up... That's our only hope for freedom. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 29, 2013, 01:57:52 AM http://applicants.mars-one.com/ Moonsteading appealed to me for a bit too, but then I remembered some Arthur C Clarke... Or start a similar plan to go to the Moon. Or Ceres. No AnCap island nation on Earth, I'm sorry. The nation-states have this one all sewn up. The only way to get to there from here is for them to go away, or for us to leave. You can only wake people up... That's our only hope for freedom. I hesitate to say only. But it's certainly our best.Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 29, 2013, 02:14:40 PM ok ok btcluke i get it, you are probably just trying to save my life. :P
But what about big venture capital, silicon valley venture capital getting behind sea-steading. would the old boys blow up silicon valley venture capitalist ships? Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: BTCLuke on April 29, 2013, 07:03:48 PM ok ok btcluke i get it, you are probably just trying to save my life. :P Well, not to sound cold-hearted, but it's more about saving our movement time & energy that would be wasted if some of us went down that tired, old, dead-end path yet again.Bitcoin is actually part of a plan that will WORK to bring us freedom. Seasteading sadly isn't. Anything at all that centralizes a group of people at odds with governments simply can't work. Their guns are bigger and they aren't afraid to use them. But what about big venture capital, silicon valley venture capital getting behind sea-steading. No, they wouldn't do it that way at all.would the old boys blow up silicon valley venture capitalist ships? Assuming you get some VC money interested, and that is a HUGE assumption given the obvious downside, you'd likely see governments wait for us to get just to the point of becoming profitable and then one sad day a submarine will fire a torpedo at the colony from under the waves, never detected, with nobody taking credit for the deed. Too well funded to fall to a mere torpedo? Then they'll use biological agents, or have a spy come aboard and poison our water supply, or one of a thousand other examples that looks best to them at the time. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: dank on April 29, 2013, 08:52:51 PM You can only wake people up... That's our only hope for freedom. Exactly. I dreamed of creating an island nation for a while but I realized it wouldn't change much in the big picture. The proper way to free the slaves is to:1. Take LSD and lose all your fear 2. Call out the government for being a bunch of greedy, corrupt, serial killing, coked up gangsters, repeatedly. 3. Tell everyone the CIA will kill you and you'll come back to life at a music festival to make earth heaven, to remove the negativity. 4. The CIA will surely hear you. They know their reign of power is approaching an end, they'd prefer to have peace rather than retaliation. 5. Let the CIA peacefully kill you to show the world proof. 6. Ejoy doing anything you can believe while feeling infinite love. 7. World sees that you were right, the economy crashes and a music festival is assembled. 7. Play guitar at music festival This way, we can have a peaceful rEVOLution. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: myrkul on April 29, 2013, 08:57:20 PM You can only wake people up... That's our only hope for freedom. Exactly. I dreamed of creating an island nation for a while but I realized it wouldn't change much in the big picture. The proper way to free the slaves is to:1. Take LSD and lose all your fear 2. Call out the government for being a bunch of greedy, corrupt, serial killing, coked up gangsters, repeatedly. 3. Tell everyone the CIA will kill you and you'll come back to life at a music festival to make earth heaven, to remove the negativity. 4. The CIA will surely hear you. They 5. Let the CIA peacefully kill you to show the world proof. 6. Ejoy doing anything you can believe while feeling infinite love. 7. World sees that you were right, the economy crashes and a music festival is assembled. 7. Play guitar at music festival This way, we can have a peaceful rEVOLution. *will laugh their asses off. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: dank on April 29, 2013, 09:58:46 PM Time will tell.
Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on April 29, 2013, 11:14:56 PM You can only wake people up... That's our only hope for freedom. Exactly. I dreamed of creating an island nation for a while but I realized it wouldn't change much in the big picture. The proper way to free the slaves is to:1. Take LSD and lose all your fear 2. Call out the government for being a bunch of greedy, corrupt, serial killing, coked up gangsters, repeatedly. 3. Tell everyone the CIA will kill you and you'll come back to life at a music festival to make earth heaven, to remove the negativity. 4. The CIA will surely hear you. They know their reign of power is approaching an end, they'd prefer to have peace rather than retaliation. 5. Let the CIA peacefully kill you to show the world proof. 6. Ejoy doing anything you can believe while feeling infinite love. 7. World sees that you were right, the economy crashes and a music festival is assembled. 7. Play guitar at music festival This way, we can have a peaceful rEVOLution. buddy do you realize how crazy you sound when you talk? I KNOW that what ever you are doing isn't helping our cause if you are associating any sovereignty movement with crazy talk like that. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: kokjo on April 30, 2013, 05:42:08 PM You can only wake people up... That's our only hope for freedom. Exactly. I dreamed of creating an island nation for a while but I realized it wouldn't change much in the big picture. The proper way to free the slaves is to:1. Take LSD and lose all your fear 2. Call out the government for being a bunch of greedy, corrupt, serial killing, coked up gangsters, repeatedly. 3. Tell everyone the CIA will kill you and you'll come back to life at a music festival to make earth heaven, to remove the negativity. 4. The CIA will surely hear you. They know their reign of power is approaching an end, they'd prefer to have peace rather than retaliation. 5. Let the CIA peacefully kill you to show the world proof. 6. Ejoy doing anything you can believe while feeling infinite love. 7. World sees that you were right, the economy crashes and a music festival is assembled. 7. Play guitar at music festival This way, we can have a peaceful rEVOLution. buddy do you realize how crazy you sound when you talk? I KNOW that what ever you are doing isn't helping our cause if you are associating any sovereignty movement with crazy talk like that. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: LaggedOnUser on May 09, 2013, 05:11:02 PM Based on this discussion, I hereby propose a new country of the Internet, to be called "Bitland".
* What is it? Open source, libertarian, democratic goverment of the Internet, similar to the way that Bitcoin (and the altcoins) are. * Why is it needed? To have an explicit, codified set of principles for governance of the Bitcoin community and its interactions, particularly business transactions. * How can a government exist without land? Yes, but how can a currency exist without an army? It does so based on its attractiveness, by the willing participation of its members without the use of force. * How does Bitland collect taxes? It doesn't, it runs on donations for any necessary expenses. * What does the government consist of? A constitution, bill of rights, and set of laws that can be forked, modified, and improved, just like the Bitcoin software can be forked. * How to start it? Use a wiki to write the constitution and bill of rights. Everyone votes. 90% acceptance means the constitution is valid. 90% vote needed to amend it. * How to create laws? Anyone can write a proposed law. Summon a representative assembly and vote, with 2/3 majority needed for acceptance. * How to become a citizen? Either you are one of the 90% who voted for the constitution, or you swear to obey the constitution and laws and are admitted by a jury of citizens. * How to quit from Bitland? The same way you joined, only you repudiate your citizenship and your repudiation is acknowledged by a jury of citizens. * How does Bitland regulate the activity of non-Bitlanders? It doesn't, it only has jurisdiction over those who voluntarily agree to follow its laws. Imagine that we create a new Internet government called the Free, Independent People of Bitland (FIPB). What's the point? Well, for starters, when you're doing international transactions, who has jurisdiction? We need a lightweight, instant, Internet government that can play a binding role in judging Bitcoin disputes. That way, someone doing business in Bitcoin can say, "I am a citizen of FIPB" or "I am a Bitlander" and you automatically know what common rules are expected. If someone steals your coins, or doesn't deliver your product, or misbehaves generally contrary to the laws of Bitland, you can bring charges and summon up a jury of their peers, who can decide between them in a legally binding arbitration, thus avoiding the slowness, messiness, and jurisdictional disputes of existing governments. If anyone refuses to accept the results of arbitration, they can be fined or expelled. Later on, if the Bitland concept becomes popular, you can worry about obtaining real estate. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on May 09, 2013, 05:24:12 PM democratic goverment of the Internet Sorry you lost me on that one hoss. I have no interest in joining a government or a democracy just for the hell of it. Thats my problem with wirtland. The whole idea of making a nation for libertarians conflicts with the idea that most libertarians hold that is the individual sovereign. Maybe if it could be used as a means to an end, but not for the hell of it. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: LaggedOnUser on May 09, 2013, 05:47:21 PM democratic goverment of the Internet Sorry you lost me on that one hoss. I have no interest in joining a government or a democracy just for the hell of it. Thats my problem with wirtland. The whole idea of making a nation for libertarians conflicts with the idea that most libertarians hold that is the individual sovereign. Maybe if it could be used as a means to an end, but not for the hell of it. I understand how you might not be interested, but it wasn't proposed "just for the hell of it", but rather to decide relevant group standards and allow them to submit disputes to binding arbitration. This would be used for things that matter, such as contract enforcement, not trivialities. This concept is no more arbitrary than Bitcoin is arbitrary. You as a sovereign individual can pretend that your notion of value is what matters, and that's fine, but look what happens when a group of people voluntarily decide on a shared notion of value -- that is Bitcoin, and it is not a waste of time! Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: FeatherLite on May 09, 2013, 07:20:56 PM I've never loved another man until I read this thread, loool! Anon136 for President!
Seriously though, you are right on que! I have been touting this forever and been wanting to create an investment fund, from real Americans who want real change. An Island idea sucks IMO, I would rather get a parcel from a respectable country that has no ties to British rule. Texas has the right...... but is too Shicken Chit to succeed! And that would be perfect there! Texas is even ranked 14th largest economy in the world. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: Anon136 on May 09, 2013, 07:46:25 PM I've never loved another man until I read this thread, loool! Anon136 for President! Seriously though, you are right on que! I have been touting this forever and been wanting to create an investment fund, from real Americans who want real change. An Island idea sucks IMO, I would rather get a parcel from a respectable country that has no ties to British rule. Texas has the right...... but is too Shicken Chit to succeed! And that would be perfect there! Texas is even ranked 14th largest economy in the world. yes since posting its been explained to me why this idea wouldn't work =(. Still you are right, if texas succeeded that would be such a huge deal. Despite all its shortcomings i would start packing my things literally 1 minute after i got the news. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: BTCLuke on May 09, 2013, 08:15:39 PM I understand how you might not be interested, but it wasn't proposed "just for the hell of it", but rather to decide relevant group standards and allow them to submit disputes to binding arbitration. Still not desirable in the least. As it is, the internet is a completely free medium, minus a few states' attempts to monitor and control access to it.If you're trying to make order out of the anarchy that still exists online, then you're clearly in the wrong community as it's the bitcoin-loving anarchists who will fight you the hardest. This would be used for things that matter, such as contract enforcement, not trivialities. Have you even been to Judge.me?You don't need any kind of a national structure to enforce contracts. In fact I bet one day there will be a free-market law based in software, much like bitcoin is a free-market money. All functions of state need to be decentralized, not the other way around. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: herzmeister on May 10, 2013, 09:41:59 AM I think it's not a bad idea to have a distributed internet republic that is informal for us, but formal for "them". It may have no powers at all.
The mindsets out there require such things. First and foremost passports, for travel, airlines, etc. I don't want dual citizenship, I'd want to demonstrably abandon my old world citizenship and my old passport to make a statement. Title: Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory Post by: mberni on December 29, 2017, 03:22:01 PM So this thread fizzled out with no action? ???
I think now is the perfect time to go ahead with a project like this. The Seasteading Institute has no competition and is making waves. I have some plans of my own to put a killer team together and actually create a sovereign nation. I think bitcoin/blockchain is the perfect technology to do something like this. What does everyone else think? Is anyone willing to get involved? |