Bitcoin Forum

If Bitcoin price pumps from $1300 to $3000 in few hours, nobody would make profit from it, because the exchanges wouldn't allow you to sell your Bitcoins and make the fast profit, it would bring a big loss for exchange sites.

Do you agree with this?

idk if that has ever happened yet, dont think anyone can predict that outcome. it would be very interesting to watch tho  :D

Nobody can tell if exchanger will not really lets users from trading if the price jumps to much because it has not happened before so no one knows it yet. But in my opinion in case that big pump happen exchanger will still let users to sell or transact their Bitcoin because they don't know if after that big pump there is also a big dump. That's the gamble the exchanger needs to risk if that happens.

What?
Why would the exchanges not allow for their users to sell their Bitcoins in the event of something like this? You almost never sell to the exchange itself, always to other people. If others are buying it for that value, then the exchange should just let it happen since it doesn't affect them.
Are you sure you know how most exchanges work? You're kind of making me think you think that you only ever sell to the exchange.

I saw days ago a thread about exchanges legitimacy. Some people think it's just a question of time until all exchanges close and scam its users. With a big pump on Bitcoin price, the exchange owner's could imagine a possibility of high fast profit, principally if they have a big Bitcoin volume on their site, under their control.

The transactions could be freezed, they could use the user's Bitcoins to make profit for themselves, selling and buying again later cheaper on another exchange for an example... Or, the worse scenary, they could scam everyone and make all the profit for themselves. I'm not saying it will happen, it's just a possibility on the situation Bitcoin pumps a lot in a small time period, and I'm asking what you think about it.

I think exchange people will try to make as much profit as possible,As the price of bitcoins would have gone up within a very hours it might happen that they might exchange close to bitcoins rate ,not very possible that they would all of the sellers to sell it there.

think of a gold rush in the old days: who made more money? the guys digging for gold in the hills, or the guys selling shovels?

right, shovel sellers.

and exchanges profit for every single trade. you buy, they take a fee. you sell, that means someone else buys, so they take a fee. and this happens on every transaction, thousands of times an hour.

therefore, it's in their best interests to keep operating and to be legitimate. doing so, there's only one outcome - growth and wealth. doing otherwise risks that.

so why would they risk it?

If that would happen it would have big effect in bitcoin community many users will disappoint if they do not sell their bitcoin and they do not get income from it.

That is why i think much better to keep your bitcoin in the wallet than in an exchange it much secured.
And i am agree that the exchange will turning to scam has a big possibility because they do not like to lost lot of money that is why they will take away our money and never coming back.

That would be amazing if bitcoin price surges to $3000 in just an hour, i think allowing bitcoin to sell when it reaches to that price will be profitable for them if they take a fee for every single trade made and they even might will also increase their withdrawal fees.
if it happens i could just store bitcoin in an wallet and let it increase.

I don't think the exchanges would really have a reason to prevent you from selling your coins if you wanted to. The exchanges make their profits from fees on the trading so they are making money due to volume and the price doesn't really matter to them.

that's logically right, which way we take the exchanges site will benefits from our transaction so why would they take the risk of turning scam?
unless we are using untrusted site maybe that's possible but with those exchange that already gaining big profits from our trade activity will be  more happier with what is happening right now regarding to the rise up of btc.

Theoretically it's much more worthful to continue operating forever than scamming customers money. But on the internet there aren't faces, an exchange owner can scam their customers and come back next month with a new site... Nobody will know it's the same person, the only difficult would be to build the reputation again, maybe because of reputation people think twice before doing things like that.

And we are talking about a big profit, a fast opportunity that could not happen so fast again. It's like all profit made after years operating the exchange (fees income) in one hour. Humans are greedy and chances of profit like this can change people's mind for the evil side.

I still selling my coin in the exchange site with smoothly.
But for some exchange site, we are not able to sell our money due the technical problem or legitimacy such as btc-e and bitfinex.

But i think if it makes sense if we are not be able to sell our coin in some exchange which has problem.

I don't see there is an exchange site prevent his users to withdraw his money. And the exchange will be announcing their problem about the user's deposit or withdrawal.

Really? I guess it will not happen that they will not allow people to make some exchange after the big pump. I think they will.allow it and after they will make some move too to have their profit in return. People who are trading are always ready to get benefit from any pump whether big or small.

If exchange itself is not trading, they basically don't care

More specifically, they care for fees, and trading fees obviously come from trades, so when there are abrupt price movements the trading volume spikes too. And it doesn't matter whether the price flash crashes or flash surges. So, they are in fact interested in volatility and price being "alive", therefore prices pumping to 3,000 dollars per coin would provide exactly that, i.e. insane levels of volatility

Do you happen to know if exchanges have an in-house team to trade on their own platform with their own holdings for the potential aspect of increasing their profits?

I could defintely sell the BTC if the price went to $3000 or $3. Exchanges want to you trade so they can profit from fees.

No, I don't know that for sure

But given that the largest currency, commodity and stock exchanges are regularly caught exploiting their advantage before their clients (which is forbidden by trading laws and even special agencies like SEC or CFTC are set up to control that), we can be almost 100% sure of that. Basically, it is easy and sure money for an exchange, and it would be strange if they didn't take this opportunity, especially when the total majority of cryptocurrency exchanges are not regulated in any way. Though it is not about trading as such, in other words, they don't need to first buy low and then wait to sell high. They typically buy low sell high simultaneously (and earn profits instantly as well as risk free)

All the major exchanging companies constantly are being monitored by each other and by big whales/investors, admins and staff members identities and home addresses are available to investors, any wrong move will immediately cause a chain reaction and wide spread price dump.
By the time they try to sell all the coins in small amounts they have been caught already, since you can't sell a large volume especially if the coins are tagged.

You think people are stupid to trust millions of dollars with exchanges without insurance?
Only if you are an idiot with enough money to cause a sudden pump, people with cash actually are now slowly accumulating to avoid the same scenario of sudden price increase.

OP's scenario will never happen in the first place.

This is actually right. Exchamgr are having profit from transaction fee and they are not the one who buy and sell the coin you are trading. The devs of the coin is the one who is giving funds for the exchange to cover some buy/sell order and the majority of the order on exchange came from different traders too. So having a flash punp is not an issue for exchangr

I think the exchange would have a problem if everybody would want to cah out against a fiat in a short time.
The altcoins are stored at the accounts of the exchanges, I am relatively sure about that.
But the fiat, I do not think that they would have enough of it if everybody would want to cah out. Especially not after a big jump in price.

I don't think that exchanges are having anything from transaction fees

You seem to be confusing them with miners. Nevertheless, there are ways which are allow exchanges to earn money off their clients and these have nothing to do with fees. The most conspicuous example is front-running the orders of the clients. Many exchanges have set up deliberate delays under various names. For example, at Btc-e all trading data is cashed every 2 seconds, but this in effect means that you can't find out what happens to your order within this interval after you send it. So the exchange has 2 seconds within which they may not actually place the order at once but wait and see if there is another offsetting order coming in. If the spread of these two orders is negative, the exchange itself can fill both of them and book the spread as profit. They don't even need any funds for that since they are just writing down the spread in their favor

Bitcoin can only go to $3000 if it is actively traded in exchanges, how else would it go to $3000?

Exchanges business is to enable exchange, why wouldn't they allow exchange and how would they lose?

Wtf?
No, not at all.
Exchanges don't handle the trade themselves!
On an exchange you put orders of sell or buy. And other people accept those orders.
Exchanges merely allow those to be done in a secure way, taking 0.2% every time ^^

Seriously ? lol we can have benefit from a big pump because we can sue the exchange sites. and make their company pay for a big money when we win in the court because obviously we can win the court because that's against their terms and condition . every site has it and learn to read license and agreement before trusting a site.

It really is not an issue for an exchange and reputable bitcoin exchange sites would not dare to scam their users since they will lose there their constant flow of income from fees which have high volume sometimes. You only need to be worried of scam to their users if the exchange you are using is not that reputable and is not that well established yet and have low count of daily transactions to sustain their website.

If bitcoin jumps that high,do you think the first thing come to the holder's mind is to Sell the coins ? I think not.The price will continue to hike because of high demand and less supply.

Well I do agree with it since it is a frequent event  that is always happening to exchanges. We cannot blame them since if they will not do that they will go bankrupt and they will close and if all exchanges close then that will be the end of bitcoin. So let us just leave that way if you have a huge btc in deposit then convert it to dollars if you cannot withdraw it then later on if everything is fine convert it to bitcoins again then withdraw.

Op that is why localbitcoin is there. If the exchangers refused to exchange bitcoin because the price has pump to a reality position of $3000 by the forces of demand and supply then there are not supposed to be in business. As for me I am praying for that type of pump so I can make more profits in my savings bitcoin.

Not at all!
Exchanges fail to deal the order because of the incredible activity that's all!
It's just because the load is too heavy not because they don't want to...

A exchange isnt the only place where you can sell BTC instant.
here (https://bitonic.nl) and here (https://www.happycoins.com/nl/verkopen/bitcoin) as example you can sell some % below current value but with enough profit maybe a option.

Can you specifically state what exchanges you are pointing out here? Or basically you are assuming?

If you are not assuming, I think even for small numbers, we can see some dumping activity while this price surging is happening. I haven't read or encounterd some issues by the others that they didn't able to withdraw their respective balance with the current price increase.

If you assumed it, well you have a point but also look at the consequences if some of the exchanges will do that kind of doings.

That's not true. If you are pertaining to exchanger of fiat money and bitcoin, it's impossible that you can't sell your bitcoin at the current price it has now which is high enough since they wouldn't be deficit in doing that as they get profit from their fee every time you buy/sell bitcoin from them. They have no right to refuse a bitcoin holder to sell his bitcoin for fiat money.

He's just assuming, and that's stupid because exchanges wouldn't benefit from closing the trades...

Exchanges take no risk in making the trades! They allow trades between 2 people and take a percentage... Why wouldn't they allow it???

Another proof that people are never happy. They make fuss and panic either because of pump or because of dump, it's never good. And it's always some conspiracy theory about exchangers or something.
And you can always use localbitcoins instead of any other exchanger and make your profit.

If exchanger won't allow that then they will not gain the profit as well. Everything will stand still then. If people knows that it has pumped from 1300 to 3000 in few hours then everybody will put their money on exchanges to get even bigger fat profits. This will lead exchangers break even point to cross the positive line making them huge profits. Whatever is exchanged on these sites remains their only. Also, don't forget, big transactions means bigger fees straight into exchangers profit. So you might not see scenario of exchanges being halted in such case. But you never know the effect really.  :D

Perhaps the author is comparing market trading like a dealer in gambling, this is wrong understanding because in fact the trade market itself obviously benefits from transaction fees, greater value exchanged = more fee is used, there is no loss at all due to increase in trading volume will increase.

This has nothing to do with scam

Exchanges just make use of an opportunity to earn risk-free profits whenever such arises. They don't steal from their clients in a direct way. In fact, they may be even providing a somewhat better price for an incoming order (hence, front-running), though the difference will likely be infinitesimal (i.e. the lowest possible at this exchange). Even regulated, most "reputable" exchanges from the real world are regularly caught front-running the orders of their clients, and that's considered illegal by the regulating and supervising agencies and commissions

You're assuming exchanges aren't solvent? That's really bad for an exchange.

why you said like that? i think traders which is staying in that site will make profit with that pumps. i think the exchanges owner will make big profit too because many traders selling their bitcon in high price and traders must pay the fee and its mean, its a profit for the owner site.

if something like this every happens then the first think will happen is what op said, exchange sites are going to  get stop for some hours as because there will be maximum sell orders pending specially this will be hugely profitable for the long term investors. but honestly in trading amount matters more than time, as if you have large time then you can make so many profits but if you have huge investments then you are the whale you is controlling the price of an exchange

Op I disagree with you. Pump is good if it based on the principle of demand and supply, anything outside this is against the fundamental of that particular asset said bitcoin.

Nope, for sure there are people who will benefit from the Big Pump, those who are holding their Bitcoin for a bit long time and  aim to sell their Bitcoin at $3000 would definitely rush to exchange and sell their Bitcoins.  And I doubt that all bitcoin exchanges will do this kind of thing. Holding people's fund.   

I do not think that it would bring a big loss to an exchange site, it gives more profit to them since they are charging in every transaction.  Like for example, an exchange platform in my country charges around 5% everytime we sell/covert Bitcoin to our local currency.  This exchanges would be happy if we converted our Bitcoin since it means a profit for them.

Also remember the buying price which is giving also big profits from the exchange sites. If selling rate is higher then expect a much higher buying rate. Overall, still a good profit of the exchange.

And no way they will just disable withdrawals because of that since that will give them a negative feedback which they don't like as building trust in exchanges is really difficult these days.

Exchanges won't be able to stand in our way in this situation. There are other options like localbitcoins.com where you can sell/buy coins without needing the help of an exchange. If an exchange tries to suppress the price artificially, it will only lose customers&bitcoins&money. Nothing else. If they suspend withdrawals (both btc and usd) it will be their end and nobody will use their services again. So what you say doesn't make sense and probably impossible to happen.

I think all investors will have benefits because they can dump and make a lot of profits.

Actually everybody would make profit of it whether they have a few coins only, with that high pump of price.

Why made you think that exchanges wont allow it? Actually some altcoins has been pumping fast too so it doesn't really affect the exchanges.
Exchanges sites acts like a middle man in a trade so they won't loss a lot. They don't only earn on bitcoin but rather to altcoins involved on their site.
Somehow, NO

Technically it may cause exchanges have to increase their reserves in $

Why would the exchange halt the transaction if there is a price pump ,hope you are talking without understand how things work ,as long as there are traders willing to purchase bitcoin at that rate you would sell it ,the exchanges wont halt your transactions and if they do,you could take legal actions against them.So there is no gamble here and the exchange wont be loosing anything if the price of bitcoin rises.

Well significantly these exchangers really benefited this bigger pump and it actually depends on the amounts that has been transact. Actually those who pumped their dumps could exactly have their benefits, but those who gamble their new investment losses it while they buy their bitcoin during the time of massive dumps. But if there's another pump of btc price I think no one loses, but still the price is much expensive to those who recently buy bitcoins to be invested on their wallets.

Exchanges are liquid they eat a fee every trade so they should have the assets to cover it. Whether they could handle a 3X flash rally with the cash positions they have on hand depends on their capital reserve with the banking institution. I would say likely if not just move the coins around exchanges.

Some people will make profits I think, as long as they cash out in small amount and I don't think there is such rule that doesn't allow customers to withdraw what they have in exchanges. An exchange should have much money just in case something like that happens.
However, I'm not sure if bitcoin price could be pump as much $1700 in few hours, more likely will not happen.

We, as outsiders, don't really know how things might work internally

So, basically, anything is possible (within reasonable limits, of course). Moreover, I've seen it a few times myself when an exchange all of a sudden announced maintenance works when the price started to move abruptly, and yes, I've seen it not just once, so that may not be a mere coincidence. Obviously, clients couldn't cancel their orders during that time, and if the price moved strongly the exchange itself could fill the locked orders, obviously in its favor. This is a real possibility

This can only happen with Bitcoin, because the real currency does not work. And that in the evening swindle and for it can strongly punish, in a case with кpиптoaлютoй to anybody to put things in order.

Are they even allowed to just freeze all account suddenly to prevent money coming out? If these exchanges are registered, that could be courting a lawsuit.

If nobody can have a benefit from a big pump then there will no people investing in bitcoin for example because how can they put their money if they can get profit from their investment. Pump of a particular coin is the only way to get profit because if there is no pump then there will be no profit.

If this happens,all the exchange platforms would close and run away with the bitcoins and after a few hours the btc price will be 500 USD  ;D.I`m just kidding.
Exchange sites make money from transaction fees,not from crypto trading.
Why would they lose money if the price increases?

Which transaction fees do you refer to exactly?

If you mean cryptocurrency transaction fees, the cryptocurrency deposits are free of charge in almost all cases, while withdrawal fees go to miners, not exchange. There are also fiat withdrawal as well as deposit fees, but I don't think that many people withdraw and deposit fiat as often as they do cryptocurrency, and these fees most likely go to payment processing companies as well. Maybe, you actually meant to say trading fees which are taken from every trade made (around 0.1-0.2% per trade)?

Yes, for sure investors will going to grab the chance to make exchange to have some profit and after they will going to wait again it crashes again then after they will have to buy coins in the low price then wait to pump up again and sell. This process goes on and off for the traders and this is their skill to get profit by just the pump and dump of the coins.

I personally don't. It would be a loss for the exchange site but it is for a while only. Because if you sell bitcoin on the exchange site, they will have the bitcoin you sold and others may buy some in the near future so the exchange site will also profit from this. And for the record, isn't bitcoin exchange site's service and purpose is to let bitcoin users to buy/sell bitcoin in their site? So why wouldn't they allow users to sell bitcoin, this will ruin their image and their customers will shift to another exchange site. Then that would be their great loss.

Some exchanges does play into some pumps and join them, but in the end the money from costumer its possible, if a big pump happens, only who has money will be able to buy, i dont believe exchanges will have any issue, instead they sell 1000 bitcoins=1 milion, they will sell 300 bitcoins 1 milion easy as that.

I DON'T AGREE TO THIS! Why would an exchange not allow you to sell your bitcoins? On what grounds will the hold your funds?
They should know better how bitcoin can be volatile at times and payout even when its a loss on their side.

That is the only realistic option that could happen,you can only buy something if you are having money and for that you need to have a regular job. :P
so are you telling that the exchanges are manipulating with the price and users funds.If so that is a big accusation you are making.The people who have the guts to take some risks gets the maximum benefit from a big pump.

Please don't act like none of you know this fact already that exchanges do manipulate markets and take advantage from every opportunity? did you think they are satisfied with their commissions and low fees? when pumps happening their sites loads so slow that makes it impossible to do anything because of so much lag. Good examples are services such as yobit and polo, kraken etc.
They buy most of the coins and start manipulating the buy/sell orders in their own favor.
It's a proven fact.

The investors are able to dump his coin and grab a lot of money, They have taken a lot of profit. They may cash out his profit and put the early fund to be his capital to buy back again on the cheap price.

This is just a game with a lot of risks. Some without strong metal can get stressed to lose a lot of his funds just in a second.

Yes that is how this game works especially in investing or trading bitcoins because there is a lot of smart trader or investors out there and if they a good coin they will invest to it on a early stage and they will hold it for long time and after the big pump they will sell and get the profits and enjoy it. That is how we need to play the game to get benefits from a big pump 8).

I think they will allow it because trading exchange earned through fees from the traders. This is the way they can earn fees. Ofcourse traders can have benefit from a big pump by buying  hold and selling it.

No. That is foolish. That is business they are running and they cant prevent people from withdrawing if they want too.
They will lose all their customers if they do that. They will run? So what will be next after they vanish. They will have nothing.
This is not how a business works. They took the risk so they must continue whatever the price would be. Besides, they have bitcoins themselves. Simply selling it will still make a lot of room for them.

I don't think this is a proven fact

This is only a suspicion (or just an opinion). Unless caught red-handed, we should give the exchanges the benefit of doubt, shouldn't we? When there is a spike in trading volume during "rush" hours, exchanges, especially the smaller ones can have problems processing so many requests. I know one exchange which starts maintenance work in these hours (but maybe it is just a coincidence). That said, I myself think that many if not all exchanges are front-running the orders of their clients, but I still don't think that any decent (more or less) exchange starts manipulating the orders directly. Or maybe you mean something entirely different here

I guess I have misread the post of the author last time. But there are also points to what he mentioned in his post but it is not about not be able to sell bitcoin but rather you cannot withdraw your bitcoin from the exchanges during the increase of value. As experience maintenance always occurs and there is delay in the withdrawals but I dont know if its because the exchanges doesnt want to let us withdraw or there is problem on the blockchain.

a fast rise and a huge traffic on exchanges which may cause some downtime doesn't have anything to do with bitcoin price getting "pumped". so OP has to make up his mind, and talk about only one specific topic:
- price pump (meaning going from $1300 to $3000 in an hour for example)
- price rise (meaning rising from $1300 to $1400)
- not being able to withdraw from exchanges.
these are 3 different and completely irrelevent topics.

What blockchain problem do you refer to?

The only problems that have happened so far are stuck transactions (long confirmation times), but these are irrelevant both to blockchain and exchanges. Bitcoin is not your fiat with which banks can block payment channels, freeze your funds (as an option, outright seize them), or just announce banking holidays whenever they see appropriate (I don't even speak about usual weekends and holidays). On the other hand, blockchain is open 24/7/365(366) with no weekends or holidays as well as maintenance hours

So you mean this mainly the common situation which could happen when price pump is happening in the blockchain and exchanges. Yes most of us think that it's the reason, but all of those certain happening was not only the basis of what is actually happening here. Blockchain network really is the liable of how transactions delays and even sending confirmations is concerned, and yet price will normally rises up and also decreases, so we must be patient enough of this kind of problems and I know staffs were doing their best to resolve this issues.

things you are saying are nearly irrelevant to each other!
price rise is based on supply and demand. and demand is rising with more adoption and it has nothing to do with confirmation time or more accurately, enforcing higher fees.

and what are these "staff" that you are referring to!
there are no staff, you must be thinking bitcoin is some kind of centralized banking system that some people are processing transactions by hand :)

Well, now someone else refers to something as nonexistent

At first, there were some problems "on the blockchain", now we have some staff working on these nonexistent issues to resolve them. What staff are you talking about? Apart from that, stuck transactions and slow confirmation times have more to do with Bitcoin miners deliberately refusing to confirm transactions (in an effort to scrounge higher fees). Obviously, this has nothing to do with exchanges allegedly withholding withdrawals in times of above average price volatility

Are you joking? Stuck transactions are due to the blocksize limit, FFS. Miners aren't scrounging fees, they're unable to keep up with the volume because they can only process 1MB every block interval.

Here's the thing, bitcoin miners are at a profitability greater than ever and mining equipment manufacturers are having great days too as the profitability can only increase demand and help make mining more sustainable in the longer term.

Bitcoin network is being spammed. All legit uses of the blockchain are currently 750k/block average.
Rest is unsanctioned use e.g. spam or other useless data hidden in the blocks.

If we had some way to sort microtrasaction/filter spam then half megabyte block would be more that sufficient.

I think that's not going to be happen, and I do agreed that exchange won't allow it to be happen because if they know that  it will bring them a big loss. And sometimes the common problem with the exchange transaction was once it transferred in the blockchain the transaction confirmation is being delayed. So the release of bitcoin is not easily transfer to our wallet addresses.

Yes the exchangers site will  not allow that being not allowed sell because of the pumps because if they do that then it will be a huge damage to their reputation a lot of people will not trust their site anymore. The only thing that exchangers do is to have a market where people can buy and sell and allowing and not allowing selling is not their concern because they already making a lot of money from the fees of transactions in their site.

I'm not joking at all

I'd rather say that it is you who are misinformed. Miners are doing what any other monopoly out there does, i.e. trying to squeeze as much profit as possible from their clients. In this case, it means exactly that, i.e. going for higher fees in every possible way since mining rewards are fixed and cannot be changed without destroying Bitcoin. It has been discussed many times already, some miners are not filling up blocks to the hilt, some are leaving them deliberately empty, with only one generating transaction (e.g. AntPool). Wtf, they may be spamming the network themselves. And what's ironic, it is exactly them who are declining solutions that would solve this issue. Now ask if there is a single reason not to call them rogue?

No, not really.

The speculators will definitely be able to make a quick buck or two from this. You have to realise that the price of bitcoin is determined by the last trade conducted between buyers and sellers, and that means that a trade has to actually happen.

If the price on Bitstamp for instance is $3,000 that means that the last trade conducted is $3,000. If you want to place a market order then the highest buy order might only be $2,950, but still, you CAN sell the bitcoins if there was a big pump.

That's non-sense.Don't have an idea how that is relevant to the topic.You want miners to use their resources for free ? The least they could do is cover up their electricity costs.

Did I quote it all wrong or you're just being a hypocrite ?

Again,do you have a better solution which would be profitable on both the ends ? Whining doesn't do good to anybody.

Yes, you seem to have quoted it all wrong

These words are evidently not my words. I don't care if you are going to apologize or whatever (I really don't care), but you'd better do for your own sake since karma is a bitch (and she certainly takes her job seriously). Regarding miners, this is sort of natural behavior (i.e. looking for more profits in every feasible way not outright banned by law or otherwise). But this still doesn't make them less rogue. Or, if you are not quite happy with me calling a bunch of dudes representing mining nowadays rogue miners, then the whole mining system in Bitcoin is rogue and corrupt. Whether or not you have an idea how that is relevant to the topic isn't my business either. Anyway, you are asking the wrong person

I dont think so ,i am not agree with this because we don't know what exchanges will do. I think exchanges will to their own way to have an advantage on it .If they do so they might have a problem with their reputation.

First of all few hours is too less time for more than 130% pump at the price of $1300 !!
Secondly, how exchange gonna know btc is going to be $3000 or even more before hand, its people who makes prices. Thirdly, if exchange stops exchange how can price keeps climbing?
Fourth and most important, Exchange will not be in losses, it is not exchange who buys your btc but the people in form of buyer, rather exchange will make money in form of commission from increased transactions.

I think I can successfully challenge all of your points

First, with markets thinning as it seems to be the case with prices climbing, we can see both dramatic price spikes as well as price crashes. Empty (well, mostly) orderbooks make it possible for someone either to sell through all the liquidity provided or to satisfy all demands for liquidity (or both at once), and thus prices can be however low or however high at a given exchange. And this is not just dry theory, I've seen it many times at small exchanges when orderbooks get empty by some huge buy or sell order. Second, the exchange does know where the price is going beforehand since, technically speaking, it is them who are placing the orders, not traders, i.e. they see the orders even before they are placed. So no problem here either. Third, prices may be rising at one exchange but trades can be halted at another. As simple as it gets. Fourth (and that's the tricky part), you can't know for certain that exchange is not actively trading itself, so the answer is yes, they can be in losses, and thus may have an incentive to halt trading

Your theory is off. First off, miners are not a monopoly, they are the people who secure the network from hacks. The miners want to increase blocksize, to increase capacity for more transactions, which Blockstream/Core has been blocking for 3 years. Fees rising astronomically may be good for miners in the short term, but they are smart enough to know that people will abandon Bitcoin if fees get too high (witness the precipitous drop in BTC dominance). More total transactions is the key to profits for them as the block reward continues to drop. This has been discussed to death here, and you're simply out of the loop on this topic.

Miners are opposed to Segwit because it will move transactions off the BTC chain to Lightning Network/Blockstream control. Obvious.

Lots of people could have an incentive to flood the mempool for many reasons. Personally I believe it's Core supporters trying to FUD people into adopting Segwart.

Do you mean price increase in one day ?? Yes it is possible that no transaction occurs because it is impossible in one days the price will rise so high. no no, exchanger will never suffer losses because there is a turnaround that occurs and they are merely intermediaries.

Excuse me if I'm missing something but how does flooding the mempool benefits anybody ?How would dust transactions give incentives ? This doesn't seem like it has a technical point of view,humans are a complicated race.

Agree:
1. Most fees are a percentage, so higher price, higher fee
2. When one analyses the fee structure, it will show that a sellingfee is a higher percentage than a buying fee.

exchanges are just middlemen who take a commission from filling orders. I doubt they care about people pumping and dumping. as long as trading volume is high, they are happy.

Yes, for sure investors will going to grab the chance to make exchange to have some profit and after they will going to wait again it crashes again then after they will have to buy coins in the low price then wait to pump up again and sell. This process goes on and off for the traders and this is their skill to get profit by just the pump and dump of the coins.

Many do that nowadays. But many investors who just stay and wait until there is a bitcoin price increase again. This is a normal thing because everything has its own strategy. Every decision will definitely have results to be had. The better the decision then the greater the benefits that can be achieved.

If it is so obvious (which I totally agree with), why is it not as obvious to you that there is no "long term" for miners in that very case (as opposed to short term)? As I've already said it a few times, their days are numbered unless they can successfully prolong the current Core versus Unlimited showdown as long as possible or even indefinitely (note that this is equally applicable to miners supporting SW/LN as well as their opponents supporting BU). Regarding mining monopoly, I don't see how this monopoly excludes securing the network from hacks (which seems to be your point). In other words, monopoly doesn't mean that whoever participates in it refuses to do their job (though this still doesn't completely eliminate such a possibility either)

It is primarily about requesting too much for doing the job (due to lack of competition)

if there was a surge like that and you couldn't get a sale, most of the time it's down to the exchange failing. bitfinex have done it in the past, kraken does it all the time, with alts poloniex has done it too.

could they be hitting a button somewhere? it's possible. it's not against the law and there's money in it

Yesterday I was reading about 'Perfect Competition Market' in economics book. There was a full fledged chapter, I think consisting 20-25 pages. I started enthusiastically but lost my all interest right after reading first line. The line was-
"Perfect Competition Market does not exist in real, it is just a theory".
Your take on my post remembered me the same thing, human race has reached far ahead of reality in the ideology based world with assumptions only, no reality.  :-X

I doubt if they could legally do so. If there is an investigation, they would be in trouble.
They make money when trades happen and it is in their best interest to facilitate trades.

I guess in this case there is no place for ideology

Since it is an obvious case of practice being a lot more complicated and convoluted than a theory describing these events or processes up to a point where in reality you get the opposite results in respect to what theory (or just conventional view) suggests. In other words, "in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, though in practice there is"

It seems that we don't disagree on what's happening, more the reasons why.

Miners aren't "requesting high fees". People are paying progressively higher fees to get their transactions confirmed. Have you looked at the mempool in the last week? It has broken new size records: https://blockchain.info/charts/mempool-size?timespan=60days  Today it's at new ATH, over 110MB. That means the blocks are full, and hundreds of thousands of transactions are unconfirmed, likely the sub-$1 fee transactions and the complicated transactions (lots of inputs).  The reason for that is that the blocks are full. Miners could easily clear that mempool (and would love to) if the blocks were a mere 2MB. The blocks could've been made 2MB without issue 3 years ago with a one-line code change and a quick consensus hard fork (not as scary as Blockstream would have you believe), and still could be.

Ergo, fees are high because the network is over capacity. The network is over capacity due to Blockstream's monopoly on development and deliberate blockage of many proposals to increase the blocksize. Blockstream has explicitly stated that Bitcoin won't scale past 1MB blocks and Segwit with Lightning is the only way forward. However, due to the market's rejection of their FUD, Blockstream's monopoly on development has ended, with Unlimited being a candidate to replace them. As we all know, Unlimited development is not great, but another challenger will arise soon. Segwit is dead in the water with Litecoin dumping and Lightning not working yet. Time is not on Blockstream's side - they no longer have credibility as the de facto developers of the bitcoin software. If they continue to ignore market sentiment about Segwit, eventually there will be a  viable code fork of version 0.12 that works and has 2 or 4 MB blocks. Alternately, the blocksize will remain 1MB forever and bitcoin will continually lose market share until and altcoin surpasses it. 

It could be argued that miners have a sort of monopoly. But then, when did they not have this monopoly?

I am not a good investor or a good trader so I dont have any ideaa about this case. But I do think that they have to do something for a reason. The big pump is created in order to bring more and more money to the whales. If it does not bring any profit, why do they do that?

Obviously, when there were a lot more independent miners

Right now we have just a dozen of miners, which makes a perfect case for a monopoly (strictly speaking, oligopoly, but this is inconsequential here). Well, these miners are in fact mining pools backed up by a few mining farms, so it is still essentially the same ("six of one and half a dozen of the other"). Regarding miners demanding higher fees, they can't do that directly, of course, but this doesn't mean that they won't do anything which would make the users pay more rather than less. Honestly, it would be strange if they didn't search for ways to raise the fees. There are no altruists if you have literally millions of dollars invested in mining equipment. That should be as clear as day

My Wallet App allows my to convert my Bitcoin to Fiat at anytime of the day, well not actually it only process transactions on weekdays until 10 am, if not it willl be transferred to the next business day. Also it will still keep the prices of the exchange rate during the transaction of the conversion. My wallet also updates their exchange rate in real time making is possible to benefit on a big pump of Bitcoin's price. But seeing the price of Butcoin right now its more than a big pump as its price growth is more than 2 weeks now.

well we can not be sure if this will surely happen after reaching value, but for some reasons it can be possible that some exchanges would be having a trouble with their withdrawal systems but they are not going to disallow you to sell your bitcoins that's savage man ;D you don't have to worry about it if your bitcoins are kept trusted and reliable exchange .

How you know that exchange wont allow us to sell our bitcoin? I think trusty and big exchange will allow us to sell our btc

Again - you are repeating a common fallacy on these forums. Miners are smart enough to know that if fees approach $5 per transaction they'll be cost-prohibitive, and will result in the death of bitcoin. They'd be much more profitable and much happier with larger blocks, as they've screamed a million times, seemingly to deaf ears. Sure, miners would like to increase fees slowly over the next twenty years as the block reward decreases. But why would they want fees to increase when, simultaneously, unconfirmed transactions skyrocket and more and more people flee bitcoin for another crypto? This can only be bad.

These are not deaf ears, these are your eyes which are shortsited

Though you obviously deem otherwise since "miners are smart enough to know". They are certainly smarter than you think. They know that there's no tomorrow for them, that's why they don't care about the future as such and their future profits (since there'll be none). It is the end of the game for them. And it has been explained many times as well across the forum. What is the purpose of larger blocks (that "they've screamed a million times" about) if they deliberately leave blocks empty today? You have to cut the crap and face the facts

I don't think so. The only one who will benefit from a big pump is the one who bought a lot of bitcoin when its price is low. Bitcoin holders can earn a high profit from increasing price. There's a possibility that their money could be double or even triple.

I agree with you but the issue is the exchange site are equally protecting themselves even though they should rather not do that. The reason for my position is that part of what makes an exchange popular is liquidity in that when I want to sell, I should be able to do so within limited time or else I won't trust them but not all this time are buyers at all time are available so they buy before then selling to who ever makes an order. But what will happen to them the moment the price increases at that rate without anybody to buy at the moment and they allow you sell which meas they owe you and if they cannot redeem it, the next is scam accusation thread which might damage their reputation. With that, what they do is just study what happen next before just jumping here and there and we all know the volatility nature of price.

Can you show us some proof that we cannot get benefits from a big pump? A lot of people now investing and trading because they are all waiting for the big pumps because that is how they can earn money then if there will no big pump then there will no benefits.

I don't think anything like that can actually happen because a investor has to invest double the market cap to double the current price.
And also we have not seen anything like this in the past so there's a chance exchanges may not allow that or maybe they may even allow. It's better if we wait and notice what happens next.

how can you say that there are no altruists in this world? Just look at satoshi, he could be a millionaire but he didn't even touch the bitcoins he mined... And of course miners are looking for the higher fees, who wouldn't, though if we implement segwit that would mean that all transactions can be made without the help of the miners, thus when rewards will get cut significantly in a few decades for mining won't that mean that it will not be profitable to mine blocks? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be good for bitcoins. That's why I am for BU at the moment, miners will keep on getting their rewards for taking the transactions and people will not have to pay the massive fees that they do now. Like really at this moment it is impossible to use bitcoins just because of the fees.

Yeah OP was stupid to say that, volatility is bad but of course we all benefit from the pumps as long as we hold our bitcoins.


If satoshi were really an altruist he would have anonymously donated those bitcoins to a good cause. He is either dead, lost his private keys or is waiting for a higher price.

i don't not agree with op here because if there is a huge pump as described. it means value of  bitcoins will also increase and everyone having some
bitcoins at that particular time we call it  profit.

most likely the early investors will cash in big on such a price pump and for the exchange they might lose on the altcoin business as we get to but more for a small price.

If I'm put my sales Order , my bitcoin will sold on my preferred value ( althought market value still not reach my target yet )
So trader still able to make profit

Even if exchanger can't make profit but their profit on the past still can't race with current loss

And what Satoshi did so that we could consider him as an altruist?

We don't even know whether he is still alive or not, so that's a moot point really. Apart from that, I didn't say that there are no altruists in this world, but even if there are we should be very careful in our judgment about them since "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I said that there are no altruists if you have millions of dollars invested into something, at least, as long as we remain rational. But irrational people cannot be considered as either altruists or egoists since any of these assumes conscious choice which irrational people cannot make by definition

I don't think you understand the situation.

For miners, the purpose of larger blocks is to process more transactions, make more fees, and scale the bitcoin network to keep up with demand from all over the world. Duh. Which is also the purpose of larger blocks for free thinkers on this forum. That doesn't imply support for miners, it's just the logical way forward based on Satoshi's vision, and in concert with the incentives he envisioned when he create Bitcoin.

Now you're arguing that there is "no tomorrow" for miners (are you a UASF supporter)? LOL, if anything, there is "no tomorrow" for Core devs and their band of yabbering minions. The Bitcoin network can chug along happily for the next 100 years without a single line of new code getting written. It just can't scale to reach the number of people who want to use it. Therefore, people will dutifully move on to the next coin if nothing changes, as they are doing now.

I'm more inclined to think that it is you who fails to see the forest for the trees

Miners can't make more fees with larger blocks since the larger blocks won't let them extort higher fees by not confirming transactions with smaller blocks, though with larger blocks such extortion would be an open outrage (as if it is not already). This is not a rocket science, after all, and it is hard to fail to see that, so there is no reason to think they are actually in favor of bigger blocks. They may claim whatever they want (and you may choose to believe in that), but their true objective is to make current disputes even more heated, so that the present situation would drag on for longer (preferably, forever)


I'm curious if you understand how this piece (especially, the emphasized part) fundamentally contradicts the first section ("process more transactions" and "make more fees")

You're just digging yourself deeper into an illogical argument. Why on earth would the miners lie about wanting bigger blocks and secretly desire smaller blocks? We've already established that the too-small blocksize is limiting their profits, alienating the user base due to high fees and slow/failed confirmations, and running bitcoin into the ground at a key moment of explosive growth. Who has the most skin in the game here? Miners. They've spent millions on hardware and they intend to profit. Keeping the bitcoin network running and keeping a happy face on bitcoin's public persona is very important to them. They're not extorting anyone. They rejected Core's Segwit proposal and that's their right.


I'm curious if you understand how this piece (especially, the emphasized part) fundamentally contradicts the first section ("process more transactions" and "make more fees")
[/quote]

Again, the network could theoretically continue to function at the current volume and price for 100 years without any changes. But it would halt the rapid volume and utility growth, which would move to another crypto. No contradiction. Now perhaps you could explain to me why the Core devs and their flawed corporate vision for bitcoin are so important? And why another dev team can't port the 0.14 changes to 0.12, raise the blocksize to 2MB, and a majority of nodes and miners compile and run that code?

Who established that?

You may have established but I didn't say anything to that tune or which could be (mis)interpreted in that way. Bigger blocks in no way guarantee miners higher profits, even if they actually would include more transactions (but we are not there yet, anyway). I'm absolutely confident in my point, and I can easily defend it (as long as you remain honest, of course). They desire neither bigger blocks nor smaller blocks, they desire more profits (which is understandable, no altruists here), and any change would likely mean lesser profits for them. With bigger blocks their roguishness will be more evident at that (if they continue to pile up transactions with half empty blocks). In this way, they want the current debates and clashes to go on indefinitely (which I already said) since this allows them to preserve the current status quo (i.e. escalating fee race)

Exchangers will have to accept all sellings, that's their work and no matter what price will be. And I doubt that too many people will jump to sell their coins. Some par yes, but there will be a part of people who will skip such event only cause of they don't follow bitcoin's price nonstop, and of course will be people who will wait for some higher growth and will just take the position of waiting.
One thing happened couple weeks ago when on one exchanger the price for bitcoin fell to 0.6$ per 1 BTC cause of the service's mistake. As I heard not so manypeople could buy bitcoin for such price. I wander to hear if someone really could  :)

Exchanges don't accept buyings or sellings. They just match orders.
Your sell order can remain unfulfilled if there is not matching buy order.

I have not absorbed this matter seriously. But according to me, they will accept any price change in the market. Suppose if they not accept this fact and not allow us to buy or sell for the present price then no one will use that site and that site will lose reputation in the market. I am following few local sites in that one site is genuine they will keep on update the price depends on market price.

Yes that is how the exchangers works, they didn't do buyings or selling because they just act as a place or market where you can put your either sell or buy order and wait for the other people to fulfill your order then you can either get stocks or get profits. Exchangers is just like a bridge that connect two place or people.

I doubt very much that exchanges don't buy and sell. As far as I know, exchanges are unregulated. They can front-run any trade. They can arbitrage other exchanges. And they can create massive volume using their customers' funds.

Therefore they stand to profit more than anyone, and likely do!

Exchanges does make money with fees, for every transaction you make they make money, what you saying is there is pump they would frozen their income to steal costumers money? Some exchanges might trade their btc to fiat or just collect and exchange funds enought to cover the costs, besides those there is no connection at all with your statements, who buy and sell any currencie into the exchange are the costumers, soo its your and mine money at risk not exchanges. I had see at poloniex a lot pumps this year and some of them reached 40-80% profit into 24 hours, the only issue that happened were website got slowly due to big numbers of new traders that reached the exchange.

Exchanges do not care the question is how much load the server can handle, if the price spiked and a lot of users all tried to sell at once it is possible the server would treat it as a DDOS and shut down the users.
In that case the people with active limit orders at high profits will likely be the ones to profit as long as the market engine is still functioning that is.

But for fun the real answer is someone sold and the price went down someone made a profit somewhere ^^.

yes its happen with poloniex in several times when the site got overload visitor. its really hard to follow the site if over loaded but i think my solutions is we can place an order sell to anticipate when the price is getting pump like before so we don't have to be late to sell our coins and we can get benefits from the pump itself. i have seen that my solutions is works for me and i can make nice profit because of this and i think i will do it again for another time.

during trade for bitcoin i only use local exchange and never use other exchange however i never seen overload visitors in this site even when the price was pumped just like several days ago and i think this is not fair that if exchange doesn't allow users to sell their bitcoin when it was pumped because the pumped are the things that have been eagerly awaited for every traders so for me there is an exchange doesn't allow this i might leave or avoid them

I have made some researched that it was actually happening to some exchanges. The problem is not due to the price increase and that it was orchestrated by the site. Rather, there was an overloading of trading transactions and the system could not catch up anymore which resulted to non-functional buy and sell features. Others have experienced a pending withdrawals due to a large traffic of transactions in mempool.

I would do the same thing if ever that will happen overnight. If withdrawal fees would increase too then I'd rather store bitcoins as of now and probably withdraw them if I really need to.

Yeah with how quick the value went thru I personally think the same way if bitcoin can go high up to 5k $ it will be very profitable for both traders and exchange site I'm sure they really needed to think wiser and never do some confusion in order for both ends to be happy and satisfy.

I guess you people are talking about what happened with poloniex in recent times when most of the crypto currency prices were rising. But I do see it is as a peculiar incident and we cannot expect the same thing each and every time when there will be some heavy pumping will be happening. Literally exchanges will not be having any control over our orders other than matching buying and selling orders.

For an exchange to maintain their reputation they must be having enough bandwidth to handle any number of traffic and sufficient protections against DDOS attacks. Hope now a days all the exchanges are having these and we can expect smooth trading all the times regardless of heavy pump or dump.

It works for some exchanges like what we have in our country, they follow every movement of the bitcoin price so we can see that we are getting some profit wile the price is pumping up. Its a wallet that only exchanges PHP (Philippine peso) to btc or reverse, so we can instantly sell our bitcoin if we get some profit from the pump.

Indeed, I guess the only will benefit is the peolpe who are holding their bitcoin for a long time because they will sure get a high profit. On the other hand the person will be frustrate are traders because as long as bitcoin growing some altcoins will fall that badly. It is tough to trade your altcoins into bitcoin since its price is high.

Yes that is true, and those people who are waiting for their coins to go up. If you did not buy at the lower prices then that means you'll likely not get anything from a pump that's a fact we all have to know. If you want some benefits from pumps, you have to predict it, which is hard. Super hard!

I think he is telling about that exchanges will stop the trading when the price is going high in short time. and it is correct that when the price goes sudden high that time this all exchanges will stop the deposit and make the exchange available for only users who have got bitcoin on their exchange wallet. But their are some local exchanges where you can trade for fiat currency on this type of time when the market goes high suddenly you can sell the bitcoin for fiat currency so that if the price goes down that time you can buy back.

If the exchange has a reason that prevents selling your coins, if you want her to sell the coins.
A trade that makes money because of its vulnerability and its price is not too important for those who want it.

What does any exchanges has to do with the users selling the coins when the price increases,if there are buyers then you could sell the coins,in the recent weeks the price of all the alt coins increased almost all of the major exchanges had a problem handling the traffic and most of them were under DDOS ,other than that the exchanges wont prevent us from selling our coins.

It has happened to me many times in Poloniex that when an altcoin suddenly experiences a big pump, it does not allow me to sell or eventually its platform suffers some technical problems to connect and carry out that operation. In these cases it has been difficult for me to take advantage of these massive and unexpected pumps, however I have been able to capitalize these pumps only if the price remains stable at that level for a relatively long period of time, otherwise it is really difficult to catch the best price in an instant transaction.

All people here are right about exchanges, no one can stop you from selling bitcoins, but let me ask you about demand for bitcoins on that price? Who is buying on that price? Maybe couple accidental cases, but majority of bitcoins are just sitting there and no one is buying when pump is obvious.
Probably just few people are making profit when price is rising, maybe exchanges have a deal with few people and just they sell in this moments if there is any demand.

The reason behind the rally we saw for the past few months is because the Japanese market legalized bitcoin and we saw a number of huge investments and business coming out of Japan as well as other countries and more countries are starting to accept bitcoin and these are the core reasons for the increase in price and not because of exchange admins manipulating the price.  :P

The admins of the exchanges doesn't have enough bitcoin for manipulation because their markets are all decentralized because they are using decentralized currencies so there is no chance for them to manipulate the price of the currencies there and the only thing that they can do is to maintain their site, Bitcoin price is always depending in the demand and not manipulation.

I do not agree with it, they have already speculated that and have made plans on how to treat if that event will come.
In our local exchange when the price of bitcoin reach to $2,000 they change the rate of selling and buying,  they increase the selling rate with 10% based on the standard selling price while the buying rate is really high and people are complaining because they have to pay a higher amount which is above the standard buying rate.

I don't think that this will happen. It not easy to raise the price of bitcoin in just one time, days or month will count to happen your idea.

Or if it will happen, I think it depends on the user on what kind of strategies they have to sell their bitcoin. They will turn to greediness because of unexpected price that they encounter. They all wants a big profit, even the investor have a plan to get more profits. So the exchanger have no care about this, they can get also a profit.

I do not think exchanges' working model is as per your thinking. exchanges are just matching buyers and sellers and hence they will not be in losses if they are allowing you to sell at higher prices. They will be still earning from the fee which is being paid for every buy/sell order execution.

If there is an exchange model where we are buying/selling only with the exchange house (not with another trader), then your point has valid reason. But exchanges are working as a market place where we can find buyers/sellers.

That's a big no, let me give you a example bitcoins make a bigpump in this industry from small amount of dollars to 2500$?! as you can see if you buy bitcoin at that time and sell it in this present time you'll make big profits that's because of big pump of bitcoin that no one predict that the value of it will reach at this amount, we can have a profit and benefits in a bigpump yo

only one people is very dificult can big pump bitcoin price
need much money can get profit to pump bitcoin price, must company or community can pump and get profit

Rightly said that only altcoin can be pumped by the majority stakeholders and btc is not at all possible when it has to be pumped by 1 man. Whole of China clubbed together can actually decide the where btc price needs to go where it will rise or fall since they hold the major portion of btc.

In real life things are different from what you think

Exchanges don't only bring the buyer and the seller together, they often act as a buyer or seller themselves. They are there to earn profits, and if they encounter such an opportunity, they will certainly catch it. Since they see all the incoming orders of their clients before anyone else in the market, this gives them a certain competitive edge, and not to use this edge to make sure and easy profits would be economically unwise

I am pretty sure that it would be possible for only a single person to pump Bitcoin and have it benefit a bunch of people that were holding Bitcoin before the pump began. For the people that invested money into Bitcoin while the pump was around the peak of it -those would be the people that lose a bunch of money because they've invested money too late.

That is why Bitcoin should be noticed as a collectors item rather than an investment.

Sorry, but that point of view seems naive to me. You are aware that the cryptocurrency space is almost complete unregulated?

Therefore, there is nothing stopping an exchange from front-running trades, controlling volume in their favor, outright hacking prices, and arbitraging other exchanges. With transaction volume at all-time highs, there is even more opportunity to "time the markets" and profit handsomely. Have you noticed the volatility on these exchanges? Prices will stay static for 2 weeks and then suddenly leap 100% - that's basically a huge red flag that a market is being manipulated.

There are all sorts of "whale clubs" playing all kinds of games in the crypto space. These are Wall Street criminals, so they know every trick in the book.

Have you ever traded yourself?

I mean at a currency or commodity exchange that would count as a regulated one? Obviously, you haven't since otherwise you would have known that this pattern of price behavior is omnipresent. It is the same with major currencies, commodities like oil as well as precious metals. The price may stay frozen literally for weeks and then crash or spike many percentages within a day or two (oil has been particularly notorious in this regard recently). I guess there should be a theory explaining this phenomenon (likely tied to market inertia), but it certainly has nothing with price manipulation as you mean it (i.e. something illegal which is possible only at cryproexchanges). Just in case, regulated exchanges are using the same tricks that unregulated ones employ, and they even get caught (sometimes). I'd rather say it is you who is really naive here

A pump like it is not going to happen if an altcoin pumped form 1 dollar to 3 then the amount of money needed to make that pump is small, if bitcoin pumped from 1000 to 3000 although in terms of percentage it is the same pump, the amount of money needed for bitcoin to make that pump is incredible, so while what you are saying may be true such a pump is not going to happen in just a few hours.

The exchanges do not buy your bitcoin with their own money but these exchanges are working as a middleman between the buyer and the seller and at that time when someone will sell their coins so someone will also buy bitcoin because they will neeed bitcoin for their business and so the sale will happen at that time.

Well i do believe exchanges might play with trading but i really doubt they make such, taking into consideration they charge btc fee at all transaction they get btc doing nothing, soo they can dump their coins at the price they wanna without loose nothing, its all profit, they does pay their workers with bitcoin, and exchange their fees to those things you cant pay with bitcoin.

let me tell you who's buying bitcoins right now. The speculators that have shit ton of money and want to make even more of it, they throw it in like it's nothing for them willing that it will get him more money when they dump it all on peoples heads after a price growth. To be honest I am willing that the price is going to go down significantly right now because the bigger the pump is the bigger and harder dump is going to be. Thus, there would be tons of harm done to bitcoins.

I think the hard dumps only occurs because they want to make other people sell their coins and it has been done always in manipulation of the people who have a lot of money and who knows how to manipulate it. If you are a smart bitcoin investor and user then you will just probably let them manipulate the market and just buy and hold bitcoin because in the long run you will see a higher price for bitcoin.

I took you off my ignore list just in time to see this response. First off, trading at an exchange is not required to examine the suspicious coin price charts. But of course I have traded BTC and other cryptos.  Do you really think that the massive price shifts for every crypto are "market driven", or normal?  What other financial asset class has such rapid price growth and collapse? I guess it's time for you to start googling. And don't give me "penny stocks".

An unregulated market means simple techniques like front-running are legal - not illegal in any way, shape, or form. To break that down for you: on every transaction the exchange can cause the buyer AND seller to pay 0.01% more, without arousing the slightest suspicion or breaking any law.  When we get into how the trades  are settled, there is plenty more room for scamming. Every exchange can and likely does do fractional reserve. Do you think that if you buy coin X on Poloniex that anything happens besides an extra row in a transaction database? That means they only need to have the coins when people withdraw them (not common unless there is a price dump). A classic recipe for bank runs.

You are aware that Mt Gox was running a trading bot that bought 12kBTC every single day? At a price that kept constant growth of the BTC exchange rate. The level of fraud was high at Gox, but Karpeles was pretty stupid and unable to do the sophisticated scamming that Wall St. does.

Do you even know the name of the person running your favorite bitcoin exchange? Is their mailing address anything other than a mail drop in Deleware?

I asked you about trading at a "real" regulated exchange

Such as a commodity or currency exchange like NYMEX or MICEX. I'm not talking about cryptoexchanges like Bitstamp or Bitfinex. The price shifts there are absolutely the same, and they follow the same patterns. There is nothing unusual with that. You can ask any experienced trader, and he will tell you that prices don't change gradually, they almost always move in sudden bursts, either up or down. Some assets are more susceptible to such changes, some less, but that has nothing to do whether the exchange is regulated or not. In this sense, they are "normal" and as market driven as any price could ever be. I don't need to Google anything, I have already told you about crude oil since I traded oil futures myself and I remember the days when the price changed a dozen percentages within 24 hours. I can also tell you about silver which grew a few times within months in 2011. It kinda looks that it is you who needs to get first-hand experience first

Also the price is an agreement between the sellers and the buyers, if someone wants to sell bitcoin at this moment for 5000 then that person is free to do so, but no one in his five senses is going to agree to such a deal, in the other hand buyers may want to buy bitcoin for 250 but no seller is going to do this, so if the price increases is because there are buyers and sellers reaching and agreement about the price.

Since now bitcoin market has grown higher so even for a company it is not so easy to pump things longer but they can do it for a short period. But for investors who has invested for longer term growth will not have any impact from these short-term pumps and bumps. But for traders, these volatile prices gives them an opportunity make a good money in short term.

I do not believe that no one will benefit from a big pump in the price of bitcoin. Many people have been waiting for the bitcoin’s price to reach a high amount so that they can withdraw money using small amount of bitcoin. I know that many members have been waiting for this big pump especially those people who have started long ago and started with bitcoin having small equivalent amount.
 
 I am sure that those members who have been keeping their bitcoin in their wallet are enjoying this sudden rise up of the bitcoin’s price. The feeling is also mutual for those who have saved big amount of bitcoin.

Definitely, I do trading and I am making profit with the price volatility and I have to say I enjoyed doing this and it increases my interest to focus in crypto currencies for my trading activity. There are plenty of coins that we can trade aside from bitcoin and I can assure that one can earn if he is just following the updates of a certain assets because most movement are based on the news.

Exchanger still make profit from fees. I think one who hold bitcoin will buy dollars when bitcoin is in the peak price, and wait bitcoin to fall again. When the bitcoin is lower they begin to buy bitcoin again. I think only the lucky ones who can predict will gain profit.

Yesterday when bitcoin prices rose uncontrollably, I was on a rural project for a week. Unfortunately, big pumps happen when I'm not online. To be honest I'm disappointed with this but I'm still optimistic bitcoin will continue to increase although not as hard as yesterday.

I can't see that the exchanges wouldn't allow you to exchange your bitcoin. I mean why would they do that? It is even favor in them. The thing you are saying right here is impossible.

Well, this is the nature of the game, that is why those day traders seems to be glued to their computer screen, they do not want to lose a single second of anything that may happen if they are away from their computer, although I find that to be too much I can definitely understand why they are that committed to do that.

While there is some luck to the market (and in fact there is a lot due to the hair-trigger sell button usage from some bigger holders at the sign of any kind of bads news), there is some merit to looking at the market and making haphazard guesses on where the market is going to go in the future. It isn't entirely based on luck, but it doesn't exactly have large margins of error either.

A lot of people can make money, but often it is a zero-sum game and you don't want to be on the losing end.

Stay away from those exchanges denying you their services when a pump is happening, because they are the ones involved bypassing their clients and manipulating prices by entering the deal,and then you are no longer trading with other traders and essentially doing trades with exchange's staff.
Since there is no regulation supervising and auditing their records and trade history they are freely doing business by using insider information.
Also miners are the ones profiting by selling their mined coins and they should keep selling otherwise if not then others holding so who sells to the ever growing crowd of buyers?

Maybe he does know on how to sell and not to buy bitcoin on exchangers. He dont know actually what an exchanger do operates why he have said this kind of thing. What in the hell an exchanger will hold up withdrawals? Since its users money and he do gain it on other people not on the site itself.Theres nothing to do with those money that they had. Normally they will surely process withdrawals without any hesitations since they are still making money out of fees.To OP, try to buy on an exchanger and analyze how it works.

then how do you know the bitcoin price in the pump if the exchanger doesn't allow to sell bitcoin. I think if you sell bitcoin when at the pump $3000 the loss is who people buy bitcoin at that price so why exchange site must loss if there's pump. (buy and sell not just sell)

I do not.

Exchanges exist to provide their services to people by allowing them to exchange alts to bitcoin, bitcoin to alts, fiat to bitcoin/alts, and alts(if applicable or alts to bitcoin)/bitcoin to fiat. They do not choose the time when can their costumer be able to use their services, instead, the costumer chooses the time when they will use the services offered. If an Exchanger declines the costumer in using theis services such as selling their btc to fiat just because the price pumped hard, it would ruin their image and users may shift to other exchange that offers much better services and not only up to the profit.

Yep . I agree with you also if a reputable trading exchange doesn't permitted traders to sell their site will lpse its reputation .In both sides they will not have a big loss with it because in every buys and sell they have a commission and they only follow on price . In my own opinion only .

Bitcoin is big enough so the predictions of technical analysis can work on it but at the same time bitcoin is small enough to still being manipulated by the whales and that is why we see such wild swings in one direction of the other and if you are in the opposite side of what the whales want to do you will find yourself with heavy losses very rapidly.

Many people are getting the benefits from exchanges that generate huge profits and as much as possible. Since bitcoin prices will rise within hours, they may exchange bitcoin levels.

Everyone who owns or earns btc, or any other altcoin would benefit from a big pump though that's for a short term only. Pumps can't br sustained in the long run that's why there will always be a time for the price to go down, it's always been that way

But if one can time and assume the market is overly pumped and expects a serious dump, why can't one simply cash out fiat for a few weeks and be a spectator?
Weak hands? FOMO? Or?

Just LOL. You act as if there is something legitimare about your "real" exchanges. Prices there are manipulated in the same ways as I am discussing, if only to a lesser degree due to some mild regulations by SEC and CFTC (agencies that very rarely do anything about the widespread fraud and are in the pocket of major corporations). Oil futures must be one of the most rigged markets in the world. COMEX, forget it, they might have 5% of the "gold" they've sold over the past 20 years...

You can make quick transactions on many exchanges like poloniex. Exchanges like Coinbase however are not set up for quick transactions.

Exactly, that's why I disagree with the OP because you can actually benefit for a few hours and not necessarily that everyone cannot benefit, some can actually profit quickly from the exchanges.

I do not seem to know that the system of the exchange site is automatically setting so if the price goes up then he will also go up, but different if it caught the same admin site then the possibility of the price of its site rise will slowly follow the market price

If you haven't invested while the price is still cheaper in the bitcoin market, I believed nobody wull benefit from a big pump. That's because when price pump will happen, you cannot buy bitcoin at a lower price value due to expensive price that arises. Those old holders will only benefit from a big pump and yet they will enjoy the opportunity of selling their holdings, in order to gain what profit earned for a long time waiting of price to became higher.

True believers, hodlers, will not sell even in times like these, when 95% of alts are pure pumps.
I do believe that the crypto market is overvalued at the moment. Or maybe I'm wrong and this is only the beginning phase of an incoming dot com.
I'm a hodler, with 99% of my portofolio in a single coin in which I believe. I know this is bad, but I'll stick with it till the end.
But yea, to the op, day traders, speculators will benefit from this pump.

You people mean how quickly we will be executing our sell orders ? That is the requirement only when prices falling down immediately after hitting a big peak prices. But not just due to exchnages, usually we cannot sell at exact peak prices. I also disagree with OP because we can benefit from big pumps given that there will be enough time for that peak prices to sustain.

When a pump is falling down suddenly then obviously no one can get benefits out of it. When a pump involves more than $200 gaps, we can be sure to get some benefit from that.

Reputation is one of the important things for service providers such as these exchanges. If an exchange declines its customer in selling his assets then that would definitely ruin the reputation of the exchange. And surely, that is not good for them. Instead of having profits, the might end up without customers at all.

but a lot of people will lose their money in this pump and I have to say that it is not very good to make the profit from the bump because it will create fake volume, a fake price which will make a lot of people lose their money. It can also make a coin crash

I never said anything to the contrary

In fact, I always say that myself, and I said that again in one of my replies to your posts above. In case you didn't notice that piece, I can quote it here:


But what you say now is certainly not the point that you were trying to make at first. I'd rather say it is directly opposite to what you mean this time around. I will just quote your first post below, so that everyone could see for themselves:


Now try to make sense of that and how it is different from what you say now ("prices there are manipulated in the same ways as I am discussing"). So how is cryptocurrency space which is "almost completely unregulated" different from other "regulated spaces", which is what your point is essentially about (namely, that "regulated space" would be different)? And you even specifically emphasized the word "unregulated". You may try to back-pedal this issue, you may try to side-step it, you may even try to lol it or otherwise ridicule it, I'm in no hurry to wipe the floor with you (you have well deserved it anyway)

If there is an exchange I think there will be many who will hold your coins if you want them. The market generates a big profit from trading costs so as to make money with volume and the price is not too important to them.

I think  there's no reason to an exchange do this, they wil get profit anyway. Now i'm thinking about the lags or DDOS they talk about. Poloniex for example, i like to trade there but in the last month was so hard to make anything (trade, withdrawal, stop-limit that don't work, etc...). Should this deliberately?

OBS: I don't want to put Poloniex integrity in question here, is just an example.

Bitcoin demand has raised since Japan legalized it and Australia is coming with legalization as well, soo more investors will come into bitcoin. The concept of bitcoin were to grow over time, with the block halving soo dont expect the price to go down and remain down then the current 2200 dollars, even the split looks isnt a really problem and might not happen anymore.

I don't know if that would ever happen I mean that is a huge pump that you are talking about,
And we still don't really know if the exchanger would let you do it or not but I think they would provably just let you do it since it is the price of your coin.

Yes, for a common exchange model, big pump or dump is not a problem as they are just into matching business and not into real buying/selling bitcoins. In most of the cases we can expect to allow us to continue our trading as per we prefer. When there will be no profits/losses out of any extreme pump or dump, why exchanges need to block ourselves for no reasons.

What is @op going on about now? Exchanges won't let you sell if bitcoin prices rise too quickly? Why not just sell them on localbitcoins then?

Not necessarily, if the price doubles overnight and you sell and then the price goes back to normal after a few days and then you buy you have effectively doubled your bitcoin without doing much and that is not only a short term benefit but a long term benefit since we know the price of bitcoin will keep going up naturally as more people enter into the market.

The only thing people must realize is that exchanges does provide a trusted plataffor to trade, some might affect the market since they can have someone or a bot trading all currencies all days, but this i doubt the big ones will make such. Knowing all btc as well money belongs to someone there is no risks for the exchanges to fail, and the big volatility of bitcoin is good to investors that does trade it 24/7.

That is one of the reason and if you are aware of what happened from the past days. The exchanges rate are too high and there are some that are not allowing people to sell. The local exchange here in our country did a fast adjustment after the price increase, they did increased the selling rate for almost 30%.

I didn't know what will happen, but I think it can be a possibility. I think they will be waiting for hours or maybe days before they can allow someone to sell it. But, if you can't sell it, maybe you can convert it. I am using a coins.ph wallet where we can convert bitcoin into fiat in a second, so I think if they did not allow me to do a cash out, I will be converting that bitcoin into fiat. And after a dump, I will be converting it again to bitcoin.

market will not prevent any transactions if there are no serious internal problems, so there's no prohibition if large pumps occur within a certain time range, this is called liquidity. We can monitor trends and charts regularly every day, so do not wait to see when whales make the most of the trend, and we can benefit from whatever happens.

In my opinion there are many who benefits from a big pump , exchange will always allow there users to exchange anytime regardless with the change of price of Bitcoin, if they will hold the users fund because of the instant big pump then the user may call that exchange site a scammer.

Nope i dont think so most of them has an automated system so basically they csnt afford to do it right away especially those exchanger that has an payment option which is instant

If bitcoin pumps, altcoins stays the same level in USD and get cheaper in BTC. If you can't cash out your huge benefit from BTC to USD, just buy some ETH or other altcoin. After pump, I guarantee, altcoins will go up and you'll make profit one more time. The only thing is to diversify your btc (eth, etc, waves, xrm, doge, dgb etc, the more you diversify, the safer you'll get)

I don't have time to make it any clearer for you. Here's your original statement I took issue with. You then tried to turn around 180 degrees what you said to make my comments irrelevant.

Google "information asymmetry", bro.

That means you know jack shit, and the guys who are pumping, dumping, frontrunning, and scamming know everything. Check your macroeconomic textbook at the front door. NOTHING is illegal in this space yet. They can outright steal your bitcoin and you have no recourse.

As I said, I will wipe the floor with you, and I have all the time in the world

You basically claimed that exchanges can manipulate the price ("there is nothing stopping an exchange from front-running trades, controlling volume in their favor, outright hacking prices, and arbitraging other exchanges"). I gave you an example of an asset (i.e. crude oil) which habitually suffers from severe price volatility with its price fitting perfectly into the pattern you are describing ("prices will stay static for 2 weeks and then suddenly leap 100%"). Now you may want to explain how exchanges (since you were talking about them exclusively, I won't let escape from that) can manipulate crude oil prices in the sense you meant it (by front-running trades, and so on, I specifically emphasize that point). You should understand that the pitfall you got into is that you have to stick to your original claim while I can poke a stick into it from any angle and direction as I see appropriate

I don't think that is possible because. If Exchangers will not allow it then the price of Bitcoin will not go down it is similar to the market closing without any activity. What I mean about that is because of having no action in the buy and sell side then it would be common sense to think that the price will remain the same right?

An exchange that did that will probably go bankrupt since no one will trust them again, it is one thing if that was related to technical problems on their site, but if they forbid withdrawals or the ability to buy and sell bitcoin then that exchange is surely going to be mistrusted for a very long time if not forever and since trust is very important in bitcoin, the future of that exchange is going to be at jeopardy.