Bitcoin Forum

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

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Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

If they change the hashed seed, than hashing it again to verify will return a different result than what the server gave you, so you know they cheated.

Most verifiers check to make sure that the legit hash was used.

How do the verifiers check the legit/original hash was used?

The hash is provided by the gambling service. They can just issue you a fake hash and provide you with a fake solution and you will never know right?

You have a point. I don't have technical analysis to share but for a thousands of professional online gamblers in the world including in the crypto world, Im pretty sure that it should, at least one of them can technically and professionally verified if a certain site has unusual shit doing around their verifier.

Also for a famous gambling site, at least in some majority of the cases, they will not ruin their reputation for that rigged hashes or something as running their operation continously will give them huge earnings than to shut down all the things and get all the money from the players.

What are you talking about? You get the hash from the original server seed. If they provide a fake server seed it will result in a different hash and likewise if they provide a fake hash it will result in a different server seed.

How would they provide you with a fake hash?

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They will tell you what kind of hash is used on the server seed and thus you will be able to hash it yourself using any tool to verify that the hashed server seed is actually what they gave you.

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Say I'm using SHA256.

I provide you with this as the hashed server seed: c6d5765a8e760bb32eb0ce4c989b415b088790de4d2826695516a367f33b70e8

Afterward, I provide you with the unhashed server seed: actmyname

You can verify it. It's simple and straightforward.

Provided they're generated on the client side.Stuff can always be manipulated if it involves server side processing.

You need to read this this article  : https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

If you know little bit about web development,you can press the button to see if any network calls are made to generate those seeds.Client side function doesn't invoke any network calls.

Go to google and type sha256 converter and calculator and open one of the links.

Now, go to gambling site and copy your pre-rolled sha256 hash server seed somewhere. When you roll/spin/whatever server seed will be revealed to you.
Now, go to sha256 calculator and copy/paste server seed, you will get sha256 hash for it.

Compare with saved one(pre-rolled one)

Hi,

If they have explained 100% how their provably fair works then u can check it at any time and it is too risky for them to manipulate with it. BUT i have seen personally some casinos who DO NOT post all info about how their results are calculating so there are bitcoin gambling sites who can use FAKE provably fair.

You should be a smart person to understand how the result is calculating as there are VERY complicated provably fair mechanisms.

Be patient!  ;)

Exactly, you need to know how to verify it.


BTT: in past I have tried to explain the principle and was quite good response about ...  see:

 

Can you prove all games offered in regards to provably fair or do people here only speak about dice games?

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but most in house developed games in the Bitcoin gambling world are provably fair.

Provably fair works for most games that aren't dice, as they are based on random number generators, which is the perfect set up for a provably fair game.

In regards to poker i.e.,  I have never heard that players can request a seed in advance?

And if you play slots, you can take a look at the seeds in advance?

To be really provably fair you should be able to check (and also change) the client seed in advance (server seed are published later e.g. next day)

I'm pretty sure the fairness system can be applied for poker as well ( in principle it's enough when the site can prove the result was known at the game begining and has not changed)  

Could anyone host a simulation of a provably fair dice so we can test some strategies on them? because either God is messing with us when we deploy strategies which mathematically defeats the house or the house is somehow cheating.
Hell those so called experts missed the asicboost and only a few people figured that out, I wonder what are the odds some day some one finds a hole in provably fair.

Check this topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1914702.0), it may help you to understand how provably fair works :)

Games that provide you a new serverseed and clientseed every roll/round can typically only be trusted if you set a client seed every single time you place a bet which requires insane discipline. The dice sites and games like bustabit feature high standards of provably fair, majority of bitcoin casinos I've seen and software like that of softswiss are not really getting the point of 'provably fair' is. Provably fair has just as much to do with the fact that a result cannot be manipulated rather than simply the fact that it can be verified to match.

above ald explain so many.
maybe this topic can also go top topic and fixed it. as btc casino special on provable fair.

Yes... of course... Assuming it is a legit gambling site...
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/11/15/zxyCd.png

They even explain the methodology used to turn a random number into the game result:
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/11/15/zxJv5.png

You can do similar things with Blackjack:
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/11/15/zxViz.png

and Roulette:
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/11/15/zxrw2.png

At the end of the day... pretty much any game can be worked out as relating to a "random number"... all they do is assign a slot "image" or a playing card to each number generated...

People need to understand how the hashing system works. Yes, we can prove whether a bitcoin casino is probably fair or not. Every system can be checked and it is a plus point for the casino if it is probably fair otherwise it'll be just a scam in the long run.

Showing seeds is a great plus for me when i do play some games which is usually on dice sites and other games which do have this kind of verification of bets. I think they are provably fair as seeds and hash can be seen randomly generated which means they arent manipulated in each time you do make a roll but for other games i dont really much have an idea.

i am following you .... i am presumed first recourse, admin and mod of online industry for all users .... so, first i was stroke by: hey, who checks fairness of the rolls provided by site owners on their games when they generate rolls ... users have not any such entity, maybe owners have an authority that will guarantee us that fairness to keep our souls at calm .... probably we will find a neutral body that can reconcile us all .... but, haha, yes, i have to give a solution from my position .. so i did ... we can create an independent service online which will provide all gaming industry with a number which has to be merged into all rolls and draws online .... i named that number: Divine Intervention Number ..!..  DIN ...!

Well most people look for provably fair and assume if a site says "provably fair" that they bets are safe but most don't understand how it actually works.

Basically take some time and read https://dicesites.com/provably-fair and you will learn how it works.

Problem is each gambling site is a little different so the script might not work for you but the concept is the same.

Before the bets are played the roll is already deteremined and can't be faked ahead of time.

People should rather worry about being paid out without having been pestered for ID all the time just to void payment. I guess it is free because you can't argue with maths and figures so I would rather sorry about that.

I worry for your sorry! I try to understand what you mean pestered for id! On Internet, our address is our e-mail address  and our ID is our IP! Problem may arise if site is real and we are, users,virtual! So, they will use KYC as Internet is Interpol! To alleviate domination of reals in virtual sphere we need supra-real (divine) contributions!
We know that somebody can check provably fair service and tell us: "It is okay!". But, who would be that entity?

Sometimes you can  take and check hash on another site.But it wouldnt make you to feel better. With proper money management you can only handle"fairness". If you have experinece in this field you will get that point ;)

I know but its would be very difficult for the casino to cheat if they used a proper provably fair system.

I realize that on some sites every few rolls a new client seed is generated, so I guess the casino can bet that most users NEVER change their client seed manually.

So it technically might be possible for the casino to analze your bets and if your bets are predictable like "simple martingale" then I guess they can forge the next 100 rolls so in the last 25 bets you end up losing 25x in a row.

However this is only possible if you let them generate the client seed for you and ONLY if your bets are predictable.

So if you want to feel safe, just change the client seed for every roll or every few rolls. There are actually 3rd party bots that can do that for you.

A bit off-topic(sorry)
Mathematically defeats the house?
There is a house edge that gives casino the edge.

to OP

You can try as many hash calculators to verify your bet if you're not comfortable with just one.

God is okay. It is gambling with you, no probs! Experts avoid us, the users, as they work with owners!
God can do only the Intervention: DIN (Divine Intervention Number) which has to be in every roll! Lol and lol!
So, we create a service (something like captcha) and whoever needs rolls or draws applies to that service!
I doubt that any expert authority will work for users side, only god is working for user side, haha, but It is moral authority not technological one! Lol!

Yes I agree with you no one knows for sure about it because only a few people understand about server seeds and hash. Although some of them say that probably fair gambling sites is provable but im not believe 100%.

There were some websites which claimed to be provably fair but in reality they weren't, so owners accounts here got red tag from dt members. actmyname explained everything pretty well but I'll add that if you don't know thing well to understand provably fair of dicr, than choose most trusted dice websites, like for example bitsler, primedice and etc.

yes ... some sites are more trusted some less .... but as i see, we have only dt members as recourse... probably they can explain us how and who guarantee fairness of the provably fair roll .... because, they give red tag and red flag to the sites and forumers ....
dt stands for: divine technology .. for my purposes .... nhhh ... i remember that i have pledged to users that they will roll, not owners

First of all it's not probably fair. It is provably fair.
There is huge difference. If site is provably fair it means you can really verify every your roll. If site is probably fair then you can't verify your rolls, you can only guess they didn't cheat you, but you will never know for sure.

It's very sad that legendary member with 3000+ posts, 60% posts in gambling section doesn't know that.

I have the same question since a long time ago. How do we know that the roll was really "random" if we just rely on their checking system, which they also built. What if that checker was also rigged to show that it was a legitimate roll? Wouldn't that be convenient for the gambling site?

You don't have to verify it on site. Use sha converter which can be found in google.

^^^
Besides, I am sure you can find on every site "how it works" help tab.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

I am one of those who didnt know exactly how provably fair system works. This stuff is beyond my knowledge. But, I am very sure that there are a bunch of people out there who knows exactly how this stuff works. And if something went wrong with provably fair, I do believe most of them will inform it to us.

Basically it works like this

You are given a server seed that is unhashed like "ZYX", lets assume the hashing method here is SHA256.

The bet usually takes the server seed + client seed + nonce.

Client seed is usually also something randon but you can alter it anyway you want. Lets say client seed is "321".

Nonce usually refers to the bet # at the start of the session and just increments by 1, very similar to bitcoin block hashing.

So your roll result will be something like "ZYX3210", "ZYX3211", "ZYX3212", etc, etc. That number is usually in hex and modulus is taken and its rounded so you get the result like "98.35", "82.34", "24.42".

So now that you know this you think you can predict the outcome correct? No because the ZYX is the unhashed seed which you are not given until the end of the session. The hashed seed of "ZYX" is "ABC" and the "ABC" you are given. This is just given so you can verify that they never changed their unhashed seed on you.

Correct! Since other people assume that good looking site are pretty much fair but if they look on the website seed if devs would share it you can actually see how was te state of their site will be.

But their are so many scam casino has been busted here since there are so many knowledgable gamblers knows on how provably fair system works.

Yes in general if you gamble only on the reputable bitcoin sites listed in the various threads on bitcointalk you are usually safe. Because if one user gets scammed, he usually is the first to open a complaint on the forum and others will investigate the issue and the site might lose gamblers.

However the problem is most people don't use bitcointalk. One reason is that its only English based and there are hundreds of languages around the world. Another reason is that its too much reading. So most people just google "bitcoin gambling sites" and go to those top 10 lists with affiliate links and gamble there. However those casinos aren't properly vetted and might be scams like they were in the past.

There are some other problems:

- Most BitcoinTalk users do not check the Scam Accusations section.

- There are hundrets of threads in the Scam Accusation section and most players are not willing to read them all

- Even if a scam accusation is posted directly in the gambling site thread, a lot of potential customers will not read it!

Example: BITSPORT.BET SCAM STOLE 7 BITCOINS (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1845986.msg18366368#msg18366368). He warned in their thread directly and now take a look how many bettors wait for their withdrawals! ::)

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

But how can you know if their site is reputable or not if you never deposit? You should at least try and play there to make sure that they are really reputable or not. Some people try to bring X site down by doing this kind of thing though. So we can't believe on some reviews too sometimes

There are really some reviews that people do only rely on others opinions which means its not accurate on rating a particular website directly without any valid proofs. Some reviews are just based on their own view and opinion or add up on others comment,just like that. Trying out is good but just risk only a small amount so that you wont regret if you do experience problems ahead.

At some moment of me playing gambling I have also asked myself about that.
Is it really that provable. Are they really obeying that kind of rule.
I dont much about how they are programming this kinds of service but still when I play I always think like there is mechanism to when it will give wins or losses.
Maybe I am just paranoid.

its hard for me as well as to how some of these sites would not be able to fake and cheat easily as a good chunk do not know how to check and all the details behind doing so.

Im looking to do my own little small betting over outcomes on this we both know would be fair.

I prefer to check about the casino legitimacy here on BitcoinTalk Forum, in the official threads of the casinos. If there are good reviews here, they are legit for me. But it doesn't mean we will make profit, it doesn't decrease the risk to lose money. Casinos will still make profit on long term and most gamblers will still lose their money...

Do me a favor. Pick one number between 1 - 100000. Here is sha 256 hash for it: ceee05e41bad07a1c8935c26ae7cbe68f5de1e8ef529140f3e55347d2bdaedc6
If you win maybe i will send you that amount of satoshi. If you lose than you send me 1000 satoshi - it's pretty much how gambling and provably system works.
You are right, there is mechanism - it's called house edge. It means that you can win but you probably won't because house has advantage over you.
Maybe you are  ;D

Yes but that's because the casino has a slight house edge against you. If you only make a few rolls then the house edge is not really going to affect you. But the reason why people end up losing BTC is because instead of making 0.10 BTC bets on dice they make 0.00001000 Sats bets on dice like 100,000 rolls and end up losing slowly.

They don't realize that the more you bet, the house you have of going bust.

Winning money from gambling sites is depends on our luck as long as we play on a trusted probably fair sites. But if you choose to play on not probably fair sites then winning chances are nill. So I always only deposit money in good trusted and old sites to play and never keep my coins in any of the gambling sites. Before I close the gambling site will withdraw my money because anything can happen with these casinos.

Well playing at unprovably fair site is actually can be called suicide since how come they win if the system of the site make them lose always and I don't think also that their are more people playing at that since the game whos not been fair is been busted by their seed and by those people who got more knowledge on how this things work, So as you said might better truly if we just play on those well known site so if we encounter such little error then we can still breath closely since we know that they are fair and trusted.

I don't think its only luck. I think what makes someone a winner and someone a loser in dice is capital.

If you got 1000BTC in total, its very easy for you to take small bets easily win 1-10BTC or so. However for someone with 1 BTC, its very difficult and risky for them to win another 1 BTC.

Most of the large whales that bet 10BTC per bet, they just use a regular martingale strategy, only difference is they almost never run out of capital and keep betting and betting until they are positive.

That's why you should always need to choose the well-reputed sites to gamble because these reputed sites know that they can make a good profit in the longer run without cheating people. As long as gamblers play these games longer then surely these gambling houses are going to make a lot of money and that's why they will not try to cheap players for small amounts.

Yeah, since the reputable ones don't cheat their gamblers, if they do it would be published and they will surely lose bettors. That is why reputable gambling sites really take care of their reputation. I think gambling sites already earn a lot even if they don't cheat their gamblers.

@FortuneJack Posters.Your posts makes me want to throw up.Like there is dumb and then there are fortuneJack posters.  :-X

Where do you buy luck ? Oh your luck is much bigger than my luck is! Basically you are trying to prove casinos control your luck.

Don't mind him,he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

Well,that's why you should play at crypto-games.net. 100% provably fair,100% customer satisfaction guaranteed.

Provably since they making sure that their reputation will not been stain by any problem whos occuring on them thats why mostly of them fix things up as soon as possible they can so thats why its very advisable to gamble on those establish since we will not worry by gambling our bets and worrying about the site where we are betting on.

Mate sha is a technique that can'e be decrypted by anyone. Basically you get a strong from them and you add a string of yours own ahead on of it and then you do some sha operations on it to obtain a number. This is in short, there is a long procedure as you might have seen, basically if they use other seeds and shows other seeds then the result won't match with the actual roll.

I would definitely do the same if im the gambling site owner.Its better to run off on a fair casino/gambling site because i know it will paid off later when it already gain popularity later on. Its more worth than to ran off on a unfair/rigged site which it wont really last because most gamblers do really notice if a site isnt provably fair at all.

As you said it is better to be fair. It will pay off in longer time. And if investors are allowed you can make some profit. If I open casino or exchange I would play fair. I don't understand why exchanges go off or bankrupt. The job of exchanges is security a couple of workers support workers for messages and thats it... Long term they will profit a lot more then just getting 100 BTC.

Bitsler is a genuine site but yes I agree we must verif your rolls very often like 1 in every 10 bets. Obviously its impossible to just verify each and every bet as this would make gambling boring. This is one reason why I love to play on blockchain based gambling sites like satnonce ( now closed I think ) because there are no issues as such with those games.

Sometimes sites are cheating and just not caught like I remember a site did that, they used to skip the seeds somehow and scam site, while they were highly reputed. Can't recall their name but yeah truly trusted until then.

I believe for this same reason we should more gamble on sports than in dice, because the verification system is quite complex and we can't just verify each bet using that long and tiring procedure.

The site was DiceBitco.in although I'm not sure it's accurate to say they were highly reputable. They were a pretty new site that got lucky due a ton of traffic from the just-dice shut down.


This is why I like provably fair systems that can be machine validated. For instance the MoneyPot provably fair system is ideal for that (although, I don't know of anyone who had yet made browser plugins that verify that stuff), but I suspect seuntjie's dicebot would do that (just guessing though, based on the fact he's a smart guy who seems into that sort of stuff).

Or another good example is bustabit.com's provably fair, you can also validate it in real time (e.g. a browser script (https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f23130eef44559acbd37) you can run that alerts you if any of the games don't verify), as well as a bunch of 3rd party bots that are monitoring it

Gambling is for having fun so it all depends on individuals interest. We can't ask everyone go for sports betting. There is already a system to verify our bets so we should randomly need to verify and it will our responsibility because we are spending money to get entertainment. It is not possible to verify each and every bet and to catch whether a site is cheating or not we just need to verify few bets randomly.