Are provably fair gambling sites really provable?

[iram3130]

above ald explain so many.
maybe this topic can also go top topic and fixed it. as btc casino special on provable fair.

People need to understand how the hashing system works. Yes, we can prove whether a bitcoin casino is probably fair or not. Every system can be checked and it is a plus point for the casino if it is probably fair otherwise it'll be just a scam in the long run.

[milewilda]

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

Showing seeds is a great plus for me when i do play some games which is usually on dice sites and other games which do have this kind of verification of bets. I think they are provably fair as seeds and hash can be seen randomly generated which means they arent manipulated in each time you do make a roll but for other games i dont really much have an idea.

[endenada]

i am following you .... i am presumed first recourse, admin and mod of online industry for all users .... so, first i was stroke by: hey, who checks fairness of the rolls provided by site owners on their games when they generate rolls ... users have not any such entity, maybe owners have an authority that will guarantee us that fairness to keep our souls at calm .... probably we will find a neutral body that can reconcile us all .... but, haha, yes, i have to give a solution from my position .. so i did ... we can create an independent service online which will provide all gaming industry with a number which has to be merged into all rolls and draws online .... i named that number: Divine Intervention Number ..!..  DIN ...!

[adaseb]

Well most people look for provably fair and assume if a site says "provably fair" that they bets are safe but most don't understand how it actually works.

Basically take some time and read https://dicesites.com/provably-fair and you will learn how it works.

Problem is each gambling site is a little different so the script might not work for you but the concept is the same.

Before the bets are played the roll is already deteremined and can't be faked ahead of time.

[JasonXG]

above ald explain so many.
maybe this topic can also go top topic and fixed it. as btc casino special on provable fair.

People need to understand how the hashing system works. Yes, we can prove whether a bitcoin casino is probably fair or not. Every system can be checked and it is a plus point for the casino if it is probably fair otherwise it'll be just a scam in the long run.

People should rather worry about being paid out without having been pestered for ID all the time just to void payment. I guess it is free because you can't argue with maths and figures so I would rather sorry about that.

[endenada]

above ald explain so many.
maybe this topic can also go top topic and fixed it. as btc casino special on provable fair.

People need to understand how the hashing system works. Yes, we can prove whether a bitcoin casino is probably fair or not. Every system can be checked and it is a plus point for the casino if it is probably fair otherwise it'll be just a scam in the long run.

People should rather worry about being paid out without having been pestered for ID all the time just to void payment. I guess it is free because you can't argue with maths and figures so I would rather sorry about that.

I worry for your sorry! I try to understand what you mean pestered for id! On Internet, our address is our e-mail address  and our ID is our IP! Problem may arise if site is real and we are, users,virtual! So, they will use KYC as Internet is Interpol! To alleviate domination of reals in virtual sphere we need supra-real (divine) contributions!
We know that somebody can check provably fair service and tell us: "It is okay!". But, who would be that entity?

[Naokia980]

above ald explain so many.
maybe this topic can also go top topic and fixed it. as btc casino special on provable fair.

People need to understand how the hashing system works. Yes, we can prove whether a bitcoin casino is probably fair or not. Every system can be checked and it is a plus point for the casino if it is probably fair otherwise it'll be just a scam in the long run.

People should rather worry about being paid out without having been pestered for ID all the time just to void payment. I guess it is free because you can't argue with maths and figures so I would rather sorry about that.

I worry for your sorry! I try to understand what you mean pestered for id! On Internet, our address is our e-mail address  and our ID is our IP! Problem may arise if site is real and we are, users,virtual! So, they will use KYC as Internet is Interpol! To alleviate domination of reals in virtual sphere we need supra-real (divine) contributions!
We know that somebody can check provably fair service and tell us: "It is okay!". But, who would be that entity?

Sometimes you can  take and check hash on another site.But it wouldnt make you to feel better. With proper money management you can only handle"fairness". If you have experinece in this field you will get that point

[adaseb]

I know but its would be very difficult for the casino to cheat if they used a proper provably fair system.

I realize that on some sites every few rolls a new client seed is generated, so I guess the casino can bet that most users NEVER change their client seed manually.

So it technically might be possible for the casino to analze your bets and if your bets are predictable like "simple martingale" then I guess they can forge the next 100 rolls so in the last 25 bets you end up losing 25x in a row.

However this is only possible if you let them generate the client seed for you and ONLY if your bets are predictable.

So if you want to feel safe, just change the client seed for every roll or every few rolls. There are actually 3rd party bots that can do that for you.

[jamyr]

Could anyone host a simulation of a provably fair dice so we can test some strategies on them? because either God is messing with us when we deploy strategies which mathematically defeats the house or the house is somehow cheating.
Hell those so called experts missed the asicboost and only a few people figured that out, I wonder what are the odds some day some one finds a hole in provably fair.

A bit off-topic(sorry)
Mathematically defeats the house?
There is a house edge that gives casino the edge.

to OP

You can try as many hash calculators to verify your bet if you're not comfortable with just one.

[endenada]

God is okay. It is gambling with you, no probs! Experts avoid us, the users, as they work with owners!
God can do only the Intervention: DIN (Divine Intervention Number) which has to be in every roll! Lol and lol!
So, we create a service (something like captcha) and whoever needs rolls or draws applies to that service!
I doubt that any expert authority will work for users side, only god is working for user side, haha, but It is moral authority not technological one! Lol!

[bajing]

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

Yes I agree with you no one knows for sure about it because only a few people understand about server seeds and hash. Although some of them say that probably fair gambling sites is provable but im not believe 100%.

[shield132]

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

There were some websites which claimed to be provably fair but in reality they weren't, so owners accounts here got red tag from dt members. actmyname explained everything pretty well but I'll add that if you don't know thing well to understand provably fair of dicr, than choose most trusted dice websites, like for example bitsler, primedice and etc.

[endenada]

yes ... some sites are more trusted some less .... but as i see, we have only dt members as recourse... probably they can explain us how and who guarantee fairness of the provably fair roll .... because, they give red tag and red flag to the sites and forumers ....
dt stands for: divine technology .. for my purposes .... nhhh ... i remember that i have pledged to users that they will roll, not owners

[spngebob]

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

Yes I agree with you no one knows for sure about it because only a few people understand about server seeds and hash. Although some of them say that probably fair gambling sites is provable but im not believe 100%.

First of all it's not probably fair. It is provably fair.
There is huge difference. If site is provably fair it means you can really verify every your roll. If site is probably fair then you can't verify your rolls, you can only guess they didn't cheat you, but you will never know for sure.

It's very sad that legendary member with 3000+ posts, 60% posts in gambling section doesn't know that.

[michkima]

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

I have the same question since a long time ago. How do we know that the roll was really "random" if we just rely on their checking system, which they also built. What if that checker was also rigged to show that it was a legitimate roll? Wouldn't that be convenient for the gambling site?

[marlboroza]

How do we know that the roll was really "random" if we just rely on their checking system, which they also built.

You don't have to verify it on site. Use sha converter which can be found in google.

What if that checker was also rigged to show that it was a legitimate roll?

^^^
Besides, I am sure you can find on every site "how it works" help tab.

[Victorycoin]

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.


Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

[adaseb]

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.


Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

[emberbekas]

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.


Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

I am one of those who didnt know exactly how provably fair system works. This stuff is beyond my knowledge. But, I am very sure that there are a bunch of people out there who knows exactly how this stuff works. And if something went wrong with provably fair, I do believe most of them will inform it to us.

[adaseb]

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.


Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

I am one of those who didnt know exactly how provably fair system works. This stuff is beyond my knowledge. But, I am very sure that there are a bunch of people out there who knows exactly how this stuff works. And if something went wrong with provably fair, I do believe most of them will inform it to us.

Basically it works like this

You are given a server seed that is unhashed like "ZYX", lets assume the hashing method here is SHA256.

The bet usually takes the server seed + client seed + nonce.

Client seed is usually also something randon but you can alter it anyway you want. Lets say client seed is "321".

Nonce usually refers to the bet # at the start of the session and just increments by 1, very similar to bitcoin block hashing.

So your roll result will be something like "ZYX3210", "ZYX3211", "ZYX3212", etc, etc. That number is usually in hex and modulus is taken and its rounded so you get the result like "98.35", "82.34", "24.42".

So now that you know this you think you can predict the outcome correct? No because the ZYX is the unhashed seed which you are not given until the end of the session. The hashed seed of "ZYX" is "ABC" and the "ABC" you are given. This is just given so you can verify that they never changed their unhashed seed on you.