Bitcoin Forum

Anti-Bitcoin Socialist Propaganda in New Zealand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHU298wcLGw&feature=share

:D

These are the first crazy people that have genuinely made me smile.

I like how the guy with glasses misspells bitcoin and say "bit-con" :D

very funny  :D

Lots of 'we' used incorrectly there, along with conflating society with the state.

Society can never be imposed by force; that is an oxymoron. Society is what is formed by individuals forming relationships with one another.

These people are complete dinosaurs. Time is moving on without them.

Just a small sample of life in NZ and Australia. It gets a lot worse than this believe me.

One for the history books ... a bit like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymKPTTjrSw

It boggles the mind that these people are actually employed.

Every reason they mentioned as to why bitcoins were bad, was actually the reason why they are good.

How do you compare bitcoins to a dishwasher ??

If I don't like Bitcoin, I can create my own version of it from its open source code. What could be more democratic and social than that?

Their interpretation of democracy is the majority ordering a minority about. It's nothing to do with the freedom of choice.

Unfortunately the media in NZ is now awash with this kind of commentary and thinking ... i.e terrible, low-brow mobocracy.

There is a holdout of second and third generation descendants of pioneers still living off the land but the full retard socialist state is all but a reality ... and national debt is rising :(

Yeah, the left doesn't like bitcoin as a currency.

They like it as a store of value though, but the currency part overwhelms them so they bash bitcoin.

You're mistaken.  And that kind of knee-jerk snap judgment hurts us all.

Authoritarians don't like bitcoin.  Of the right or of the left.  Liberals/progressives - and those of every other political stripe who dislike what our political and financial systems have done to us - are natural bitcoin boosters.  As currency or store of value, either one.

Otherwise, all I could think of when watching that video was the line from the movie:  "I see dead people..."  And they don't even know they're dead.

Just look at the fear in the eyes of that guy with glasses.
It's hilarious

Good propaganda. Some people actually believe it, because they confuse them with their amazing stupidity.

This is the most unbalanced discussion on anything i have seen in a while. You really need to give both sides of the argument if you expect people to take you seriously. Also, a person who cannot pronounce bitcoin has no business discussing it in an expert panel.

These guys are on the same level as Ben Bernanke and Paul Krugman all they are is a bunch of paid spokespeople for various pro-imperialist and neo-keynesian ideologies, lots of different opinions on how it should be done but they all follow the same thing.

Bizar interviewees. Where do these people get their facts from?

This video makes me sick

Just because you don't like it, and I don't like it, does not make it socialist.  If anything this video is statist and FUD.  The only point that they say is true is that you can't pay taxes with it. 

That's not Bitcoin's wrongdoing, that's NZ's. If New Zealand accepted it for taxes, then what they say is completely false.

I'm probably in the age range of the people in this video and yet they appeared old school to me. The video felt like something from the 70's. This way of things is dying. The video was full of poorly drawn conclusions and outright falsity and felt like propaganda, which is odd because with the access to information most of us have today, this kind of crap just won't fly like it did in times past.

You do have to admit that their worry about the apparent disability of paying taxes on bitcoin is a somewhat valid one. If suddenly a majority of people would no longer pay any taxes then the entity you owed taxes to earlier, in this case the governing body, will do everything in their power to get that tax money back, one of which ways could be to make it highly illegal, causing its value to plummet. Not to mention that no taxes would be quite problematic for things such as schooling, the agencies responsible for keeping water clear of any dangers and the FDA for keeping out food clean, or even the FCC to keep standards going. Heck, imagine the horrific situation we would be in if all government grants were to suddenly disappear.

Well, I liked the video cuz it made me LOL throughout.  Thx for sharing.  ;D

It reminded me of this famous quotation:

    "What a waste it is to lose one's mind- or not to have a mind. How true that is."

    - Dan Quayle, 44th Vice President of the United States

Might I suggest to some, instead of ignorantly dismissing these folks as outdated hacks, you take this opportunity to refine your arguments.  So far, I have barely heard a reasonable argument to anything they've said.  Just dismissive rhetoric.  That is childish behavior and if the Bitcoin community is hoping to go up against the legislators and economists of the world, YOU better know what YOU'RE talking about.  Passion and belief does not make a winning argument, because even outdated hacks can tear most of you novices to pieces in a round table discussion like this. 

They mentioned Paul Krugman.  Yeah, the Pulitzer winning economist.  While I couldn't disagree more with MOST of their statements, simply disagreeing isn't going to win any debates against minds like Paul Krugman.  If you're not prepared to step on that stage, might I suggest remaining quite, as to not make the whole of Bitcoin look like a bunch of whining elementary kids, playing around with their "hacker science project."  It only serves to help their arguments.  Just saying...

/rant over

These people are scary. So glad again I don't have a TV. TV truly makes you dumber. I feel sad for the people who watch this drivel.

And so glad I have no clue who these people are even though I live there!

Wow. Just. Wow.

They are so mind numbingly ignorant...

   wtf???

Oh, yeah ... I think we can safely be dismissive.

These are not people to be argued with, since they will never, ever be swayed by any argument, however compelling. The only way to change these people's minds is to take away their taxpayer-filled feeding troughs.

And that's what bitcoin allows us to do ... we don't have to explain to them how we are doing it, why we are doing it or grovel for their permission to do it ... or why they are wrong to want to keep feeding from their free troughs.

We just do it, like Satoshi.

Jamie Dimon CEO of JP Morgan Chase said "You have to be very strong mentally to get where you want to be in life" 

+1

To reply to the generality of comments since my last.  You can wallow in the arrogance of ignorance but without businesses accepting Bitcoin, Bitcoin is dead.  So you can talk the tough stuff, but it's people like these that sway public opinion and public opinion is what drives business innovation.  

If the general thinking is that Bitcoin is a scam, detriment to society, etc., then it's bad for business and business will not adopt it.  Period.  So, Bitcoin can bypass government all it wants...that's great.  But if you're also bypassing business, Bitcoin is dead.   Also remember, legislators control big business.  Business has much more to gain from following legislators than it does Bitcoin.  (Or so they will continue to think)  Tax breaks and fewer regulations is what businesses think about.  These savings can equate to far larger profits than low transaction costs and anonymous transactions are mostly irrelevant to legitimate business.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully believe in Bitcoin and Crypto as a whole but mostly I still see, "waaa, waaaa, waaa" instead of anything logical or intelligent that can sway public opinion.  Don't think public opinion matters?  Then Bitcoin is already dead.  It just hasn't laid down yet.  These are of course, just my opinions.  I want Bitcoin to be a success and thats the only reason I've spoken so aggressively about this topic.

Instead of being dismissive, trying leading them out from the darkside and into the light of Bitcoin through intelligent and rational commentary that clearly debunks the false propaganda being spread.  Simply put, the Bitcoin community is going to have to get alot better at PR.  Because mostly what I'm seeing is a disaster.  Mostly...I stress...because a couple of you do have a clue so...use it.  

EDIT:  Now that I'm thinking about it, that's what the Bitcoin community needs.  A good PR firm and if you really want to go to war against false propaganda and potential legislation, a lobbying firm.  Basically we've got the "Bitcoin Foundation", which for the most part seems to me, like a bunch of clowns who are letting the Bitcoin brand get assassinated at every turn.  Hmmm...food for thought I suppose but the way we're going is not going to work.

Bitcoin has me nonetheless, and while you may think Bitcoin is some little currency for Bitcoin only business, the majority of this forum disagrees with you.  Why do you think all these posts are seeking ways to get legitamate businesses to accept Bitcoin?  Hmm...seeing the Dropbox posts?  How about all the Paypal posts?  Do I really need to continue?

Now maybe 2 years ago that's what Bitcoin was, but that makes you a dinosaur now, just like these folks in the video.  You're just on the opposite side of the spectrum.  Trust me when i say, you're thinking is in the way.  And it's going to get run right over.  Either by true visionaries of Bitcoin or by the ignorant who were never properly educated.  Either way, tires marks are in your future.

The system and economics that the are defending has failed. The evidence for their flawed textbook economics is right in front of us. We have a financial system swamped with debt, riddled with moral hazard and violence used everywhere to force feed people stuff that they don't want.

If anything is needed - really wanted and needed - then it can be provided through voluntary association. That is, negotiation without threats if the other person doesn't agree.

If taxes can't be raised, then those who seek to take stuff from others, will have to request stuff from others. If the statist business model of steal/spend cannot function, then it will cease to be. Humans will still exist with or without them and I suspect society - genuine, freely associating, society - will flourish.

There is no "turning" Bitcoin into anything.  It is evolving on it own.  I fear you simply lack vision.  The fact that all you can do is hurl insults instead of putting together logical arguments says more about you than it does about me.  I can't dumb down my arguments any further to cater to you.  You are entitled to your opinions and I respect that.  My comments stand.  Cheers to you, my friend.

Now we're talking and I agree.  In my view, the only way to get "voluntary association" is by removing these false stigmas attached to Bitcoin.  We need to be spreading the truth and that includes combating arguments like those in this video with more than just dismissal.  The status quo is not just going to lay down for change.  It's gonna fight tooth and nail and the easiest way to stop Bitcoin before it gets started is to discredit it. 

While the world may wake up tomorrow and realize the economies of the world are unsustainable, they aren't going to trade one bad system for one that is also perceived as bad.  That's why I ultimately said we have a PR problem and that's really the extent of my argument.

With chips!!   ;)

These are fair points and looking back at my original comments, I was more referring to the Paul Krugman's of the world, not someone who uses her dishwasher as an argument.  ;D  That is laughable but I look at these as opportunities to push the truth you speak of.  Their arguments should be easy to destroy, yet I wasn't seeing any of that in this thread.  Which is why I posted.  I still disagree that dismissal is the right way and at the same time, you can't chase every nut job with no knowledge of which they speak around the corner.  I get that. 

If we realize it will get worse, which it will, we should be prepared.  This is war and war is not won with bombs and bullets.  It is won in the hearts and minds of the people.  And no matter how ridiculous their arguments, they are affecting the hearts and minds of the people.  That matters because it is the people who will ultimately decide.

Maybe you're right, because I'm not understanding this thinking.  "The more ridiculous their arguments the less work for us!"  Can you elaborate on this for me, unless you're talking ease of debunking these arguments at which point, I agree.

And I don't have a goal in terms of percent.  I believe that we need businesses to accept Bitcoin.  But business is up against public opinion.  They can't align themselves with something that seems corrupt, questionably legal, shady, etc.  Not say it is, but talking about perception.

For example:  Just look at the difficulty Bitcoin100 is having just getting charities on board. 

Hmm...that's fair.  Ok, I can totally see that view point.  

Sorry, I had added some comments while you were typing this, so I'm sure you missed the updates.  More focused on the wild ride on the markets ATM.

And that's all I was saying.  i may have failed in explaining that properly.  Maybe frustration of just pure negative ignorance that's so common on forums but nevertheless...this is what I'm talking about.  We can absolutely turn the tide with intelligent and rational arguments.  The benefits of Bitcoin are a no brainer to anyone who truly understands it.  We just have to get them to understand.  Dismissal is not a successful, longterm strategy.  Although there are some and will be more who absolutely will need to be dismissed as it would do more harm than good, to deal with them.

Coinseeker is correct and I also didn't see any good rebuttals to the general points these guys were making in this thread. Yes he can't pronounce Bitcoin, haha, let's point and laugh. What a loser, etc etc.

Here we see two major divides: generational and geographical. Young (probably American) libertarians vs older Kiwi socialists.

The basic arguments here are, whether you like it or not, very mainstream. When there is mainstream conventional wisdom you can't achieve anything by just insulting people who believe it because you end up just insulting everyone and the world tunes you out as noise. And then they ban your ass and you either end up giving up on what you were doing, or in court and possibly jail. Successfully overthrowing democratically elected governments by sending Bitcoins around - not going to happen.

If you'd like other people to open their minds to your point of view, you have to do the same for them and understand where they're coming from. New Zealand does not have an oppressive government, not even close. These people see their government as a provider of basic, important services. They see it as their friend and a basic part of the social contract, that everyone chips in for services that benefit everyone. They have also picked up on the anarchist anti-state rhetoric that sometimes accompanies Bitcoin and have concluded that they don't want anything to do with it, because they got the (wrong) impression that government and Bitcoin are incompatible. That's unfortunate. Bitcoin is useful only insomuch as people accept it. A "currency of the resistance" isn't even useful to the resistance.

I think this sort of thing will go away with time as people learn that whilst Bitcoin might reconfigure the status quo somewhat, it isn't a magical shield against all taxation and it doesn't make much different to criminality ("terrorist financing" is a canard because terrorism is so cheap). It'll then seem less scary to the mainstream.

NZ & Australia: Beautiful lands. Too bad about their political visions regarding banks and their centralized vision of society.
As soon as they quoted "anti social network" I knew who their God were.

I am a conservative/libertarian, or at least I believe I am. If I take the time to write down all the decisions and reactions in one day of my life and put a political label on each of them, I would most likely realized I moved from very liberals to very conservatives thoughts all the time. This is Nature and how we can survive and adapt.
Only professional career politicians tell you to never be free from reelecting them forever.

If you don't doubt you political party long time vision after fully understanding what bitcoin represents, no matter your political color, then you don't "get bitcoin"...

Very well said.  /thumbsup

"Paying tax binds us as a society"...yeah, that's the way to win the people over /:
Media rhetoric and propaganda at its best.

If you stop for a second and take note of the old fart in the glasses, he says Bitcon purposfully for a few times initially to try belittle the subject and plant that idea into the minds of the viewers. The word con is now associated with Bitcoin. Sneaky sneaky.

those people aren't socialists they were just saying what the people who pay them told them to say. really you have to be able to control the money supply? why? why is it important to be able to decrease the value of people's money? if the value increases then you can simply buy more with the dollar you have. it's like saying we can't increase wages because then the price of goods will rise. it doesn't matter if the price increases because people will have more money to be able to pay for it. nearly all of the profits go to the CEO anyway. they could create the same things for alot less and pay the workers more if the CEO was simply paid $30 million instead of $60 million.

there is such thing as a libertarian socialist, which is what i am. they are not mutually exclusive.

Many have tried but discussion is a blatant waste of time, perhaps the worst one. Have you seen the people on the show? Have you heard Paul "animal spirits" Krugman talking? These people are not by the slightest interested in the truth, or even in consistency, or even in discussion.

You do not argue with these people. They are NOT going to listen and they are NOT going to pay attention to your arguments, even if you have a paper signed by God himself to be the absolute truth embedded in the nature of our universe. They have killed in themselves their ability to pursue truth in order to achieve certain power positions.

So you do NOT waste energy by debating them: doing so will cause them to raise their voices and interrupt you, and not let you talk.
What you do is quietly doing and proving to the world that what you do actually works well.




Oh, and keep in mind the reasons why we laugh away and disregard these people: their "arguments" are not well-shaped but perhaps erroneous products of a certain school of thought. No, they are bottom-up designed in order to influence the actions of people. Punchlines. Use the words "antisocial", "society", "together", just like you can use words like "fatherland", "God", "freedom and democracy" and you might push certain emotional buttons.
As soon you realize that these arguments are not thoughts but instruments that have little to do with truth, you will understand why lies persist in politics.

sweet music ... ring of truth

It's not about convincing them (the Paul Krugman's) that it's truth, it's about being able to have the intelligent debate on the same stage.  It's about the people listening to that debate and them deciding, who they believe. It's certainly not about turning your "rivals" into supporters, although that would be a nice bonus.

Again this is why I think professional PR is needed.  So you have intelligent, well versed campaigns to fight back against the rhetoric.  It's just like a lawyer.  He doesn't defend himself in court, he hires another attorney so the emotion can be removed from the equation (which all of us have toward Bitcoin) and the clear, concise talking points can be delivered in opposition of such half-truths, misguidedness and outright lies.  Dismissing the power and influence these people have over the populous again in my opinion, is naive at best.


EDIT:  And don't get me wrong, I understand why people laugh and I'm not saying it's not justified, it's just not productive in the overall conversation. 

No, I think this is the basis for your wrong thinking. The populace are quite happy to follow these charlatans and idiots to where-ever, they promise the earth and deliver nothing and have done so for decades.

Expending energy trying to convince the hoople heads that their snake-oil salesman leadership is taking them over the cliff is an exercise in futility that you can waste lifetimes of energy upon and achieve nothing.

Your energy is better spent pushing from behind the whole corrupted system over the edge ... and getting ready at the bottom waiting to pick up the pieces and offer the new solution, it will be as easy as sliding a knife through butter at that point.

You can PR as much as you wish but until the sheeple are ready for your message they just bleat and follow the slops wagon to the shearing shed.

That's a very narrow, arrogant and prejudice view.  Not everyone can be as smart as you.  Not everyone has been exposed to the real truths.  So to dismiss people as willing sheep, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of humanity and the systems of control in which they live.  It is our responsibility to educate people and the sooner those who think like you get that and stop pretending this is still some "geeky gamers, mom basement hobby", the better off we'll all be.  

Bottomline, If you're thinking were true, Bitcoin wouldn't be growing.  But it's not true and you're hurting the cause with this hateful and dismissive rhetoric, not helping it.  Please stop it.  These are your brothers and sisters, you friends and neighbors for crying out loud.  Give them a chance to hear the truth and choose before you write them off as beyond being able to see because once upon a time, you were just like them. 

You will have to explain to me what this this. A social libertarian, that I would understand. But a libertarian Karl Marx? Well I want to learn...

I've spent over 15 years cajoling, arguing, educating civilised debates, blah-blah ... it doesn't work, they do not listen to truth and ration until their food source and livelihoods are threatened.. They had ample chances, the information is all out their now, it is their choice. It is time for action.

Willfull ignorance of the laws, of nature is not an excuse.

Maybe it's the messenger and not the message.  Just a thought. 

Maybe ... maybe you are a good follower not a leader. Just a thought.

1) CHILL OUT.  Bitcoin will be fine without "professional PR people". Many people are smart: they read about it, figure out how it works and invest in it.  Regarding public relations: if you knew more about PR, you'd know that there are 4 possible states that an idea can exist in, defined by 2 axes: Known/Unknown and Positive/Negative. 3 combinations are fine: Known/Positive, Unknown/Positive, and Unknown/Negative. A problem only arises when you get Known/Negative. You may proceed in several directions depending on which problem you are faced with. In some cases, having LESS publicity is the fix for a PR problem. I find it plausible that bitcoin could benefit from less publicity at some point in the future (we're not selling shoes to dumb kids, are we?).  I'm not advocating any particular strategy, merely pointing out that this issue is a bit more nuanced that you seem to state.

2) You won't "argue on the same stage as Paul Krugman" - he's part of an elaborately constructed academic system and tradition that has gained legitimacy over hundreds of years. Certain aspects of that system specifically misrepresent facts "for the public good". Arguing within that realm serves no purpose. It's like arguing with a Christian fundamentalist in a church. They'll keep quoting the bible, and you'll keep trying to bring in FACTS and CRITICAL THINKING. If Krugman can claim that the statement "we live in an era of wildly irresponsible money printing, with runaway inflation just around the corner" is a CONSPIRACY THEORY, it's impossible to argue with him at all about money.  Furthermore, he has ZERO incentive to argue anyone about bitcoin specifically - that would just give free publicity to the currency, and further discredit his poorly researched blatherings on the topic (yep, even Nobels can be lazy).

Just to be clear, I'm not in PR.  Hence the reason I said, "Hire".  You know, professionals.  

Now I can't remember the last time I've seen such broken spirits.  Defeated by the very system you despise.  My question is why are you still involved?  You really think a select few Bitcoiners are going to magically take over the world with no business support?  That is a delusion.  You think Bitcoin can't die?  Another delusion.  You think the rhetoric coming from these people and people like them can't stop Bitcoin cold?  Hella delusional.  

It seems some of you have bought into this delusion that Bitcoin is invincible.  Where this thinking comes from, I don't know.  But it's not reality.  Bitcoin is vulnerable on multiple fronts and that's long before you get to a campaign for the hearts and minds of the public.  And if you lose that, you have no businesses and without business, Bitcoin is nothing and has no value.  And as I've said repeatedly, businesses are not going to accept Bitcoin for goods and services, if it's negatively labeled.  Period.

I can hear it now..."Well f*ck em!"  "WE DONT NEED EM!!!"  "Bunch of sheeple IDIOTS!!"  ::)

Ah yes, the cries of ultimate defeat.  Take a good whiff because this is exactly what it will sound like as Bitcoin fades into obscurity like the crypto Napster and other wiser groups step up and bring forth the crypto "iTunes", and then the real revolution will begin.  Don't worry, we'll always remember Bitcoin, just as we remember Napster.  It just won't be worth anything.

And as you return to your caves to lick your wounds and replace your fried GPU's, you'll remember this conversation and the countless others that came before and after it.  And it's at this moment, the words we've all heard countless times will finally makes sense:

"Those who do not know their history, are doomed to repeat it."

I lol'd. A bit over the top there with the drama, dude.

 ;D  You could be right.  I did wake up in a rather weird mood today.  I will say this though, those who end their sentences with the word, "dude", probably shouldn't criticize other peoples writing style.  Just saying.   ;)

Yes, because making things illegal usually causes their value to plummet ;D
In general, this is not the case. Making things illegal usually reduces supply. In that case it'd be harder to get bitcoin, since there would be fewer or no established exchanges that you could get fiat to. In the same way that you have to go out to sketchy Joe McDealer to get your marijuana, you'd have to buy bitcoins from your geeky neighbor. Marijuana price hasn't exactly gone down, in fact over the last 50 years it's gone up even adjusted for inflation (yes, I am aware that fundamentals of the two items are vastly differert and must be considered.)
Making things illegal doesn't necessarily reduce demand and can sometimes increase. In fact, bizarre regulations and governmental abuse are something that draws more attention to bitcoin as a way to fight against that. I will admit that there is a strong case to be made that bitcoins' potentially reduced utility as a currency if made illegal (fewer businesses) could result in reduced demand leading to a price drop because of legal status, however, I do not believe this would be the case. I would argue that its function as a store of value that in the long term has out-performed all fiat currencies, its role as a method to bypass the corrupt bankster cartels, and other features, are more important.
But if you want to think that using bitcoin to go down to the Ghandi Mart and get cigarettes and petrol is more important than defeating the corrupt central banksters, fine by me. In that case, bitcoin's value would indeed go down if its legal status were threatened.
Yes, because they're doing such a good job of that... ;)
Last I checked, water pollution was an epic problem and our government would rather spend money on bombs and guns than cleaning up the rivers and oceans. Giving them more tax money is certainly not the best way to convince them to change their priorities. "If you give a mouse a cookie..." Yup, just go look at the list of horrifying carcinogenic chemicals in any grocery store item or its packaging, and tell me the FDA is doing a good job. Heck, they can't even keep rotten meat out of baby food or lead out of vinyl children's lunchboxes.
Sure, because there hasn't ever been an industry where standards have successfully been met and adhered to without the assistance of a state regulatory body. Yes, there are plenty of cases where state-enforced monopolies are allowed to roam free and "Ghost" regulatory bodies like the FDA are expected to clean up after them. There are also successful cases of industry standards being kept in check by the interests of competition as well as consumer demand and other natural market forces. Yeah, heck, that'd be horrific.  ::) ::) ::)
Stefan wrote some books (http://www.freedomainradio.com/FreeBooks.aspx) just for you, buddy. Check them out, they're free, text or audio. Also he accepts bitcoin donations  :D

QFT:

don´t worry, natural selection will discard them sooner than you think

You see all of this is a true libertarian view point, which I think anyone is entitled to have.  Although IMO, it's just not based in rational reality.  Saying the FDA is useless because you can site a handful of incidents is just silly.  Hundreds of millions of people survive eating, drinking and taking medicine because of the FDA, every single day.  Including you if you live in the states.  That's like saying we shouldn't fly in airplanes or drive cars because sometimes they crash.   ::)

Basically what I'm starting to realize is that there are people who want to take this world back to the stone age with no infrastructure, no oversight and no regulations.  So, if that's the world we were to have, we would have no need for currency. We'd be back to hunters and gathers so it really just seems self defeating to me.  What do we need Bitcoin for?

Dealing with the banking system is another animal all together and that to me is where Bitcoin can thrive.  Giving the people an option to bypass the banks but in the end, it still must be converted back to fiat, if there aren't enough business to deal strictly in Bitcoins.  Which there aren't. 

As long as one can't pay for the basic necessities to survive...Rent, utilities, food, healthcare and education...this "let's get rid of government and world currencies" thinking, is going nowhere and it just makes Bitcoin sound like an irrational cult.  Even if the dream is to replace all fiat, Bitcoin itself is fiat and is propped up by the very fiat many seem to despise.  It wouldn't currently be sitting at 100+ if it wasn't for the worlds currency being pumped into it.  I'm not one of those that believes fiat is evil on it's own.  It is amoral to me.  It is those in charge, the banks, the Fed, etc. that keep the world prisoner to their systems of control.  Bypassing these entities via Bitcoin is a winner but only if integrated into regular, modern society.  I'm certainly not going back to stone age living, just to prove a point to bankers.  We've simply thrown the baby out with the bath water. 

And just food for thought...what do we do when the oil runs out and everything goes dark?  No computers, no internet access.  What happens to Bitcoin then?

I vote that this thread be moved to 'Politics' ....

coinseeker: suggest you do some self-learning on monetary history and society... like lots and lots of it, you seem either lost and out of touch or so thoroughly enthralled with the entirety of the modern false fiat-bubble-world reality that makes you appear to be adrift in these uncharted territories, it's hard to tell ... 'just saying'.

Take the Red pill. (http://www.monetaryfreedom.org/)  Read the links in Resources :)

No, I'm logical.  You can't have Bitcoin without businesses.  You can't have businesses without infrastructure.  You can't have infrastructure without taxes and you can't have taxes, without some form or body (gorvenment) collecting it.  So, no I do not support this destroy the modern world ideology some of you believe in.  It is utterly ridiculous and an anonymous online currency is not going to get it done, just because that's what you want.  

If you had legitimate arguments, you should pose them instead of doing what seems to be the height of your intellect and that's dismal when you're positions are being challenged.  The "I'm taking my ball and going home" strategy only works in forums.  Not going to work in the real world.  So fortuantly for those of us that believe in Bitcoin on a much higher and realistic level, thankfully you have no intentions of speaking to the masses so that's good for us.  There's still hope.  We have enough rhetoric to battle, let alone battle the rhetoric from within the Bitcoin community.

And if you're going to send me links, don't send me crazy blog posts and call them facts. The first link I saw was to a Ron Paul video, who is a nut case, with ZERO chance of ever being president or leading anything supported by the masses.  (except for legalizing drugs.  ;D  ) I'm currently out of tin foil as I spent my money on Bitcoins.  And it was fiat I bought it with too.   ;D  Any crypto that is to be adopted by the masses WILL coexist with the world fiat for quite a long time.  All others will be exclusive to black market transactions or die altogether.  You can live in your Ron Paul fantasy, that is your right, but it doesn't make your way the way of crypto.  Since you like Matrix analogies, yours is a system that humanity just won't accept.  "Whole crops would be lost."...so to speak.   ;)

EDIT:  But I do get it now.  I didn't realize when I came upon Bitcoin that there were so many libertarians involved.  Again, totally those people right.  But it's also within my right to label these people crazy, tin-foil hat consiracy theorists who would rather see the whole world burn and would love nothing more than use Bitcoin to do.  Just know, I'm not on your side and if you can't beat me in a debate, you have no chance in the real world.

You very first premise is a fallacy ... we already had Bitcoin before any businesses were involved. We will still have Bitcoin if no businesses get involved, just not your vision of "Bitcoin" ... let it be, you can not control the world, noone can, not even socialist control freaks.



You are a late comer ... we already argued all this stuff out right here 2 years ago ... read the archives ... you already lost the argument but don't know it yet and I'm not going to indulge you with my intellect since the first arrivals deserved it more.

tl;dr ... It's already all been said ... I don't need to argue or reason with late arrivals and low-brow socialists anymore ... thanks anyway, lead the sheep where-ever you think is right but if you're using our money who cares?

Just thought I'd say speaking as someone with Libertarian/Anarchist beliefs, I don't want to see the 'whole' world burn, I just want to see the world of people like you crumble around you because it can only exist through the theft of other peoples' wealth. People like you conveniently forget that when you actually take action and don't pay taxes, you go to jail, our current society does not exist on a voluntary basis, if I could completely abandon this system I would, that's why I support Bitcoin.

My vision of "Bitcoin" is universal...worldwide adoption.  Yours is a narrow, exclusive club no more powerful than your average local store gift card.  We'll either take it from you and do it right or...we'll blackball you and stand behind a different crypto.  Either way, in humanity....majority rules. 


Like I said, I didn't understand libertarians were so involved, so it all makes sense.  I see why attacks go unchallenged, why dismal and name calling is the extent of the arguments, because there are no arguments for a group that want to use Bitcoin as a tool to destroy the world.  It's rather funny.  So passionate about something that will never happen.  Like I said, we're taking it from you and since this group has done the hard job of labeling themselves the tin-foil hat nuts, our job is easy.  That's right, we'll lead the sheep...which you and yours are completely incapable of doing.   ;D  This is why you'll lose and why you always lose.  You don't understand basic humanity and because of that, you...are...genetically...obsolete. 

No more free tips for you...best of luck.  You're gonna need it.   ;)

Kind of ironic seeing as you began the personal slurs and name calling in this thread ... that's pretty much when I decided you really are not worth arguing with .. you have become just troll bait at this point it seems.


Although your delusions of grandeur are comical enough to suggest you are actually trying to be funny? Or maybe you are just a nasty piece of work pretending to be all warm, fuzzy and humanity-loving but truly just want to fleece them?


Ummm, no. You'll lose because we have the ideas and the technology ... all you got is PR, a big cheesy fake smile and a hand permanently stuck in humanity's wallet.


That's fine, I've never been tipped in bitcoin and have never begged for any. Thanks, but I don't need your luck I have reason, logic and more than enough BTC ... be careful you don't miss our next great project that will make your bitcoins obsolete in a blink if we so choose  ;)

I think anyone paying attention can clearly see who's been doing the attacking in this thread.  In my view, Libertarianism does not stand for humanity, it stands for self.  It is a selfish ideology that seeks to have all world governments destroyed, all currency and basically anything and everything that thousands of years of humanity has fought and died to create, what we know as civilized society.  Libertarianism is an every man for himself ideology that basically says, only the strong survive.  If you want a piece of land, you can take from someone else if you're strong enough because there are no police, there's no rule of law.  There is just chaos and unrighteousness.  No, i side with the greater good of humanity and libertarianism is not in the good of humanity and like so many ideologies before this one, it too will fall by the waste side because humanity will not accept such "programming" because such is based in selfishness and is contradictory to the human spirit. 

Now that is your right to believe how you believe and ironically it is through the rule of law and the constitution that we all have such rights in America.  Seems like nothing more than a bunch of whiners who take what has been created here for granted and seek to use Bitcoin not to simply to bypass bankers.... (No, that's a front) but to destroy civilized society.  Better men than you have tried and failed my friend and the human spirit of kindness and good will toward one another always wins out.  This is no exception and hardly worth any more chatter.  Please continue the dismissals.  You're the best player on our team.   I'm done...the last word is yours sir.

I don't want to defend or attack libertarianism but surely there is such a selfish aspect of it. However libertarianism it doesn't have to do more or less with bitcoin than traditionalism, communism or capitalism. Anybody may use bitcoin.
In a financial point of view I would rather characterize bitcoin as return to the traditional values in a modern form.
When the financial system was based on gold and silver coins the state couldn't inflate it or hyper-inflate it or confiscate your account. With the coming of the fiat the governments can do whatever they want with your money and use it to finance wars to kill millions of people. People became like will-less zombies.
Bitcoin is the modern gold on which people can construct their freedom. Namecoin serves also this purpose in another aspect.
We will become anyway more and more regulated, bitcoin will only give some traditional financial values and freedom for those who need it.
Who want to remain a fiat-zombie it is no problem for me.


America was built by people who came to search traditional financial values - gold, silver (like now the bitcoin miners) and by those who came to have freedom(like now the bitcoin investors).

I don't think I am mistaken. Authoritarians of course do not like bitcoin, but those that believe in a big government, as the left does, do not like it as a currency either because you need inflation to have a big government.

"Traditional values"?  That's purely subjective.  What one thinks is a traditional value, another believes is tyranny.  America was also built by people who were stolen and forced into slavery to do the actual work.  So let's not forget, there are many aspects to what have caused America to be.  I would also ask, what traditional value states that if you "discover" another persons backyard, you can claim it for your own, if you are strong enough to over power them?  Remember the Natives?  The closest thing i can think of is libertarianism.  No government, no rule of law, no police.  Just the strong will survive.  If I like your house, I can take it from you.  That's not an America I want any part of and judging by Ron Paul's recent "presidential bid", doesn't look like 98%+ of Americans are looking to support such selfishness or ignorance either.  

Now you have a couple of fair points and your obvious right to them.   This all started by simply stating that if you want to win the argument, try acting like mature, rational and intelligent adults.  If your truths are indeed truths, it shouldn't be that difficult.  How that was or is even remotely controversial shows that we're not dealing with rational people here, we're dealing with ideological nuts and primates (That's my new favorite word) who are a disaster for the Bitcoin brand.  Fortunately since I've last participated in this thread, I've met and seen some people that have given me hope again in Bitcoin.  They too don't care anything about ideology as it relates to Bitcoin and I thank those that stand up to such nonsense, all to protect something we too believe in.  

Lastly, this delusion that somehow Bitcoin supersedes government and governmental intervention, is just naive at best.  The US government will put an end to Bitcoin anytime it so chooses and believing otherwise doesn't make it less true.  Let's sum this up real quick:

1.  US Government forces the US banks to shut down and block any and all transactions affiliated with Bitcoin...and they will comply.  There goes mass adoption.  Boom!
2.  US Government politely  ;D request countries with exchanges to shut them down via the banks...and they will comply.
3.  For those remaining, just the mere mention of economic sanctions will bring any straggler nations into compliance...and they will comply.  Because in the end, they care more about their countries income, than they do about Bitcoin.  

Now I'm not saying this is right or fair.  I'm simply saying, these are the facts.  Bitcoin can always survive in some black market, shady and underground fashion, sure.  A certain amount of corruption is inevitable but the dreams of $500 or $1000 or even $100k Bitcoin's will be dead as a door nail.  So in my view, the beneficial thing to do is to start framing some intelligent arguments to aide in the drafting of the regulations that are coming, whether you like it or not.  Because all this, "you're an idiot, you're just sheep", etc, etc, is only going to get Bitcoin blackballed and the door will be opened for something else to take it's place.

using the American definition of socialism I think we can say that progressive taxation is socialism, and that being the case Im happy to be called a socialist even tho I dont agree with anything said in that video

After todays events with Dwolla, the Dept. of Homeland Security and the continuing crash of the price of BTC....let's quickly revisit the "prophesy" from....oh yes...yesterday.

 

Any other arguments or doubts?  

Oh gosh, govt has bought an end to bitcoin?

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ (http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/)

http://blockchain.info/ (http://blockchain.info/)

We should all just pack up and go back to our socialist paradises now and be thankful for crumbs from the bankster masters tables.

If you think that using threats/violence to take stuff is 'civilized society', then I would suggest you take some time out to reconsider that position.

Additionally, society doesn't come from the barrel of a gun. Society is what forms voluntarily, in the absence of coercion. Statism is anti-society, not anarchism.

To suggest that people would do as they please (no laws, no police etc) is to misunderstand humanity too. These mechanisms/organisations evolved due to people wanting them. People policed their own streets, based on their own basic laws (no theft, murder, rape etc). That the state co-opted these movements doesn't mean that there wasn't a desire, nor a solution, to solve these problems without the state.

If humanity is to move forward, it needs to embrace voluntary association. Using threats to treat people like slaves, thus disregarding the ownership of themselves and their property, is not civilized. It's an anachronism from a bygone age that we're still having to put up with.

meet the new boss, same as the old boss