Anti-Bitcoin Socialist Propaganda in New Zealand

[Littleshop]

Anti-Bitcoin Socialist Propaganda in New Zealand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHU298wcLGw&feature=share

Just because you don't like it, and I don't like it, does not make it socialist.  If anything this video is statist and FUD.  The only point that they say is true is that you can't pay taxes with it. 

[dree12]

Anti-Bitcoin Socialist Propaganda in New Zealand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHU298wcLGw&feature=share

Just because you don't like it, and I don't like it, does not make it socialist.  If anything this video is statist and FUD.  The only point that they say is true is that you can't pay taxes with it. 

That's not Bitcoin's wrongdoing, that's NZ's. If New Zealand accepted it for taxes, then what they say is completely false.

[KeyserSoze]

I'm probably in the age range of the people in this video and yet they appeared old school to me. The video felt like something from the 70's. This way of things is dying. The video was full of poorly drawn conclusions and outright falsity and felt like propaganda, which is odd because with the access to information most of us have today, this kind of crap just won't fly like it did in times past.

[hak8or]

You do have to admit that their worry about the apparent disability of paying taxes on bitcoin is a somewhat valid one. If suddenly a majority of people would no longer pay any taxes then the entity you owed taxes to earlier, in this case the governing body, will do everything in their power to get that tax money back, one of which ways could be to make it highly illegal, causing its value to plummet. Not to mention that no taxes would be quite problematic for things such as schooling, the agencies responsible for keeping water clear of any dangers and the FDA for keeping out food clean, or even the FCC to keep standards going. Heck, imagine the horrific situation we would be in if all government grants were to suddenly disappear.

[LaggedOnUser]

Well, I liked the video cuz it made me LOL throughout.  Thx for sharing. 

It reminded me of this famous quotation:

    "What a waste it is to lose one's mind- or not to have a mind. How true that is."

    - Dan Quayle, 44th Vice President of the United States

[Coinseeker]

Might I suggest to some, instead of ignorantly dismissing these folks as outdated hacks, you take this opportunity to refine your arguments.  So far, I have barely heard a reasonable argument to anything they've said.  Just dismissive rhetoric.  That is childish behavior and if the Bitcoin community is hoping to go up against the legislators and economists of the world, YOU better know what YOU'RE talking about.  Passion and belief does not make a winning argument, because even outdated hacks can tear most of you novices to pieces in a round table discussion like this. 

They mentioned Paul Krugman.  Yeah, the Pulitzer winning economist.  While I couldn't disagree more with MOST of their statements, simply disagreeing isn't going to win any debates against minds like Paul Krugman.  If you're not prepared to step on that stage, might I suggest remaining quite, as to not make the whole of Bitcoin look like a bunch of whining elementary kids, playing around with their "hacker science project."  It only serves to help their arguments.  Just saying...

/rant over

[Berend de Boer]

Anti-Bitcoin Socialist Propaganda in New Zealand

These people are scary. So glad again I don't have a TV. TV truly makes you dumber. I feel sad for the people who watch this drivel.

And so glad I have no clue who these people are even though I live there!

[RenegadeMind]

Wow. Just. Wow.

They are so mind numbingly ignorant...

[marcus_of_augustus]

So far, I have barely heard a reasonable argument to anything they've said.  Just dismissive rhetoric.

"I've got a dishwasher at home and that's not money."

   wtf???

Oh, yeah ... I think we can safely be dismissive.

These are not people to be argued with, since they will never, ever be swayed by any argument, however compelling. The only way to change these people's minds is to take away their taxpayer-filled feeding troughs.

And that's what bitcoin allows us to do ... we don't have to explain to them how we are doing it, why we are doing it or grovel for their permission to do it ... or why they are wrong to want to keep feeding from their free troughs.

We just do it, like Satoshi.

[Bitcoinpro]

Might I suggest to some, instead of ignorantly dismissing these folks as outdated hacks, you take this opportunity to refine your arguments.  So far, I have barely heard a reasonable argument to anything they've said.  Just dismissive rhetoric.  That is childish behavior and if the Bitcoin community is hoping to go up against the legislators and economists of the world, YOU better know what YOU'RE talking about.

Most people here don't give a damn about it. Legislators and economists of the world are bunch of bastards that bend to will of those who pay them. None of them will ever
tell the truth unless they are paid to tell it so why should Bitcoiners give a damn about what they or the rest of the world think? It is just mindless profit-only oriented idiots
in this community who are interested in being polite and playing nice with the system - the same bunch of people who are ready to do anything to make profit and would not
change the attitude even if asked to sell "the keys" of Bitcoin. All it takes is for price to reach certain threshold. How pathetic those people are can be witnessed by checking
the color of ignore button under my avatar - when they run out of bullshits which they think are actualy valid arguments and knowledge that matters, the only power they
are left with is to click on that ignore. And they go for it, thinking it will change things for better - no, it won't. The only thing that changed is they reduced their chance to
face the reality and thus realise the truth.

If you go as low as ignoring people on the Internet forum it means you are not ready to destroy illusions around you and illusions of yourself even a bit. Sweet dreams, sucker!

Jamie Dimon CEO of JP Morgan Chase said "You have to be very strong mentally to get where you want to be in life" 

[spartacus_]

Good propaganda. Some people actually believe it, because they confuse them with their amazing stupidity.

+1

[Coinseeker]

To reply to the generality of comments since my last.  You can wallow in the arrogance of ignorance but without businesses accepting Bitcoin, Bitcoin is dead.  So you can talk the tough stuff, but it's people like these that sway public opinion and public opinion is what drives business innovation.  

If the general thinking is that Bitcoin is a scam, detriment to society, etc., then it's bad for business and business will not adopt it.  Period.  So, Bitcoin can bypass government all it wants...that's great.  But if you're also bypassing business, Bitcoin is dead.   Also remember, legislators control big business.  Business has much more to gain from following legislators than it does Bitcoin.  (Or so they will continue to think)  Tax breaks and fewer regulations is what businesses think about.  These savings can equate to far larger profits than low transaction costs and anonymous transactions are mostly irrelevant to legitimate business.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully believe in Bitcoin and Crypto as a whole but mostly I still see, "waaa, waaaa, waaa" instead of anything logical or intelligent that can sway public opinion.  Don't think public opinion matters?  Then Bitcoin is already dead.  It just hasn't laid down yet.  These are of course, just my opinions.  I want Bitcoin to be a success and thats the only reason I've spoken so aggressively about this topic.

Instead of being dismissive, trying leading them out from the darkside and into the light of Bitcoin through intelligent and rational commentary that clearly debunks the false propaganda being spread.  Simply put, the Bitcoin community is going to have to get alot better at PR.  Because mostly what I'm seeing is a disaster.  Mostly...I stress...because a couple of you do have a clue so...use it.  

EDIT:  Now that I'm thinking about it, that's what the Bitcoin community needs.  A good PR firm and if you really want to go to war against false propaganda and potential legislation, a lobbying firm.  Basically we've got the "Bitcoin Foundation", which for the most part seems to me, like a bunch of clowns who are letting the Bitcoin brand get assassinated at every turn.  Hmmm...food for thought I suppose but the way we're going is not going to work.

[Coinseeker]

You just don't get it - Bitcoin is not aimed at general public. It is not meant to replace the fiat money. It is not your ordinary business just waiting to be embraced by people
around the world. Bitcoin is underground currency aimed at avoiding the system having control over money supply and transactions. Bitcoin is anti-system project. The only
way it can die is if system shuts down Internet which most likely won't happen - see BitTorrent witch hunts some years ago.

Bitcoin won't die because, you see, it takes just 2 full nodes connected and one of them mining for Bitcoin to stay alive.

You belive in Bitcoin and crypto as a whole but you don't understand the nature of it. I'd say you are totally wasting your time here. Just go away, Bitcoin does not need you.

Bitcoin has me nonetheless, and while you may think Bitcoin is some little currency for Bitcoin only business, the majority of this forum disagrees with you.  Why do you think all these posts are seeking ways to get legitamate businesses to accept Bitcoin?  Hmm...seeing the Dropbox posts?  How about all the Paypal posts?  Do I really need to continue?

Now maybe 2 years ago that's what Bitcoin was, but that makes you a dinosaur now, just like these folks in the video.  You're just on the opposite side of the spectrum.  Trust me when i say, you're thinking is in the way.  And it's going to get run right over.  Either by true visionaries of Bitcoin or by the ignorant who were never properly educated.  Either way, tires marks are in your future.

[Traktion]

To reply to the generality of comments since my last.  You can wallow in the arrogance of ignorance but without businesses accepting Bitcoin, Bitcoin is dead.  So you can talk the tough stuff, but it's people like these that sway public opinion and public opinion is what drives business innovation.  

If the general thinking is that Bitcoin is a scam, detriment to society, etc., then it's bad for business and business will not adopt it.  Period.  So, Bitcoin can bypass government all it wants...that's great.  But if you're also bypassing business, Bitcoin is dead.   Also remember, legislators control big business.  Business has much more to gain from following legislators than it does Bitcoin.  (Or so they will continue to think)  Tax breaks and fewer regulations is what businesses think about.  These savings can equate to far larger profits than low transaction costs and anonymous transactions are mostly irrelevant to legitimate business.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully believe in Bitcoin and Crypto as a whole but mostly I still see, "waaa, waaaa, waaa" instead of anything logical or intelligent that can sway public opinion.  Don't think public opinion matters?  Then Bitcoin is already dead.  It just hasn't laid down yet.  These are of course, just my opinions.  I want Bitcoin to be a success and thats the only reason I've spoken so aggressively about this topic.

Instead of being dismissive, trying leading them out from the darkside and into the light of Bitcoin through intelligent and rational commentary that clearly debunks the false propaganda being spread.  Simply put, the Bitcoin community is going to have to get alot better at PR.  Because mostly what I'm seeing is a disaster.  Mostly...I stress...because a couple of you do have a clue so...use it.  

EDIT:  Now that I'm thinking about it, that's what the Bitcoin community needs.  A good PR firm and if you really want to go to war against false propaganda and potential legislation, a lobbying firm.  Basically we've got the "Bitcoin Foundation", which for the most part seems to me, like a bunch of clowns who are letting the Bitcoin brand get assassinated at every turn.  Hmmm...food for thought I suppose but the way we're going is not going to work.

The system and economics that the are defending has failed. The evidence for their flawed textbook economics is right in front of us. We have a financial system swamped with debt, riddled with moral hazard and violence used everywhere to force feed people stuff that they don't want.

If anything is needed - really wanted and needed - then it can be provided through voluntary association. That is, negotiation without threats if the other person doesn't agree.

If taxes can't be raised, then those who seek to take stuff from others, will have to request stuff from others. If the statist business model of steal/spend cannot function, then it will cease to be. Humans will still exist with or without them and I suspect society - genuine, freely associating, society - will flourish.

[Coinseeker]

Every now and then idiots like you come to this forum and think they have to say something of value to Bitcoin community as a whole. What all of them including you
don't really understand is that true Bitcoiners don't give a shit about your "wisdom". Even if you manage to persuade majority of Bitcoiners to listen to you or whatever, it
makes no difference for the Bitcoin because there is not just one Bitcoin out there, you idiot. Do you understand that it is up to users to decide which Bitcoin blockchain
they will use? Do you even know how Bitcoin really works? I doubt. Since you know so little, your opinion on the subject does not really matter here so just fuck off.

P.S. The more you try to turn Bitcoin into just another system toy, the more often it will be utterly destroyed by hackers. You will never ever have it your way because
not only you are attempting to steal others' hard work but you just can't insure the safety of the Internet. There is no hack-free system out there and there won't be
such a system, ever.

There is no "turning" Bitcoin into anything.  It is evolving on it own.  I fear you simply lack vision.  The fact that all you can do is hurl insults instead of putting together logical arguments says more about you than it does about me.  I can't dumb down my arguments any further to cater to you.  You are entitled to your opinions and I respect that.  My comments stand.  Cheers to you, my friend.

[Coinseeker]

To reply to the generality of comments since my last.  You can wallow in the arrogance of ignorance but without businesses accepting Bitcoin, Bitcoin is dead.  So you can talk the tough stuff, but it's people like these that sway public opinion and public opinion is what drives business innovation.  

If the general thinking is that Bitcoin is a scam, detriment to society, etc., then it's bad for business and business will not adopt it.  Period.  So, Bitcoin can bypass government all it wants...that's great.  But if you're also bypassing business, Bitcoin is dead.   Also remember, legislators control big business.  Business has much more to gain from following legislators than it does Bitcoin.  (Or so they will continue to think)  Tax breaks and fewer regulations is what businesses think about.  These savings can equate to far larger profits than low transaction costs and anonymous transactions are mostly irrelevant to legitimate business.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully believe in Bitcoin and Crypto as a whole but mostly I still see, "waaa, waaaa, waaa" instead of anything logical or intelligent that can sway public opinion.  Don't think public opinion matters?  Then Bitcoin is already dead.  It just hasn't laid down yet.  These are of course, just my opinions.  I want Bitcoin to be a success and thats the only reason I've spoken so aggressively about this topic.

Instead of being dismissive, trying leading them out from the darkside and into the light of Bitcoin through intelligent and rational commentary that clearly debunks the false propaganda being spread.  Simply put, the Bitcoin community is going to have to get alot better at PR.  Because mostly what I'm seeing is a disaster.  Mostly...I stress...because a couple of you do have a clue so...use it.  

EDIT:  Now that I'm thinking about it, that's what the Bitcoin community needs.  A good PR firm and if you really want to go to war against false propaganda and potential legislation, a lobbying firm.  Basically we've got the "Bitcoin Foundation", which for the most part seems to me, like a bunch of clowns who are letting the Bitcoin brand get assassinated at every turn.  Hmmm...food for thought I suppose but the way we're going is not going to work.

The system and economics that the are defending has failed. The evidence for their flawed textbook economics is right in front of us. We have a financial system swamped with debt, riddled with moral hazard and violence used everywhere to force feed people stuff that they don't want.

If anything is needed - really wanted and needed - then it can be provided through voluntary association. That is, negotiation without threats if the other person doesn't agree.

If taxes can't be raised, then those who seek to take stuff from others, will have to request stuff from others. If the statist business model of steal/spend cannot function, then it will cease to be. Humans will still exist with or without them and I suspect society - genuine, freely associating, society - will flourish.

Now we're talking and I agree.  In my view, the only way to get "voluntary association" is by removing these false stigmas attached to Bitcoin.  We need to be spreading the truth and that includes combating arguments like those in this video with more than just dismissal.  The status quo is not just going to lay down for change.  It's gonna fight tooth and nail and the easiest way to stop Bitcoin before it gets started is to discredit it. 

While the world may wake up tomorrow and realize the economies of the world are unsustainable, they aren't going to trade one bad system for one that is also perceived as bad.  That's why I ultimately said we have a PR problem and that's really the extent of my argument.

[Coinseeker]

Every now and then idiots like you come to this forum and think they have to say something of value to Bitcoin community as a whole. What all of them including you
don't really understand is that true Bitcoiners don't give a shit about your "wisdom". Even if you manage to persuade majority of Bitcoiners to listen to you or whatever, it
makes no difference for the Bitcoin because there is not just one Bitcoin out there, you idiot. Do you understand that it is up to users to decide which Bitcoin blockchain
they will use? Do you even know how Bitcoin really works? I doubt. Since you know so little, your opinion on the subject does not really matter here so just fuck off.

P.S. The more you try to turn Bitcoin into just another system toy, the more often it will be utterly destroyed by hackers. You will never ever have it your way because
not only you are attempting to steal others' hard work but you just can't insure the safety of the Internet. There is no hack-free system out there and there won't be
such a system, ever.

There is no "turning" Bitcoin into anything.  It is evolving on it own.  I fear you simply lack vision.  The fact that all you can do is hurl insults instead of putting together logical arguments says more about you than it does about me.  I can't dumb down my arguments any further to cater to you.  You are entitled to your opinions and I respect that.  My comments stand.  Cheers to you, my friend.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!  

With chips!!   

[Coinseeker]

Now we're talking and I agree.  In my view, the only way to get "voluntary association" is by removing these false stigmas attached to Bitcoin.  We need to be spreading the truth and that includes combating arguments like those in this video with more than just dismissal.  The status quo is not just going to lay down for change.  It's gonna fight tooth and nail and the easiest way to stop Bitcoin before it gets started is to discredit it.  

While the world may wake up tomorrow and realize the economies of the world are unsustainable, they aren't going to trade one bad system for one that is also perceived as bad.  That's why I ultimately said we have a PR problem and that's really the extent of my argument.

First, I agree that someone (you?) should start a Bitcion PR firm.  Wouldn't hurt.

However, the outright dismissal of these four bozos and others of their ilk is just fine.  They are never going to accept Bitcan, BitCon, Bitcr..  whatever you call it.  See what I mean?  They did not even take the time and energy it takes to actually even find out what it is called.  They do not deserve the time of day.

They will never accept Bitcoin, they will fight it out of fear, they will not be "converted".  However, now that we have Bitcoin we don't have to accept them!  We should laugh at them.  They deserve it.

The other thing that you do not seem to realize is that most people are smarter than you think.  They do realize their money is fake even if they do not know or understand the term "fiat".  I can explain Bitcoin to the average person in a few minutes and they are excited.  Excited that there is another option!

These four bozos and the rest of their ilk are a total joke.  We know that, most people know that, let's laugh at them for the joke they are.

With or without a PR firm Bitcoin will take root and grow.  It will be constanly attacked.  They will come at it with everything they can think of.  Every time they chop off a head two more will grow back.

tl;dr:  My point is that this kind of crap is totally expected.  It will get much worse as Bitcoin grows.  

These are fair points and looking back at my original comments, I was more referring to the Paul Krugman's of the world, not someone who uses her dishwasher as an argument.    That is laughable but I look at these as opportunities to push the truth you speak of.  Their arguments should be easy to destroy, yet I wasn't seeing any of that in this thread.  Which is why I posted.  I still disagree that dismissal is the right way and at the same time, you can't chase every nut job with no knowledge of which they speak around the corner.  I get that. 

If we realize it will get worse, which it will, we should be prepared.  This is war and war is not won with bombs and bullets.  It is won in the hearts and minds of the people.  And no matter how ridiculous their arguments, they are affecting the hearts and minds of the people.  That matters because it is the people who will ultimately decide.

[Coinseeker]

no matter how ridiculous their arguments, they are affecting the hearts and minds of the people.  That matters because it is the people who will ultimately decide.

This, I think is where we disagree.  What is your goal here?  20%, 10%, more?  less?

We don't need "the people" to decide.  We only need a very small subset to decide.  Most people can continue to live as sheep and be perfectly happy.  Bitcoin can cause a total revolutionary change by being used by a few million people.

Also, the more ridiculous their arguments the better!  The more ridiculous their arguments the less work for us!

Maybe you're right, because I'm not understanding this thinking.  "The more ridiculous their arguments the less work for us!"  Can you elaborate on this for me, unless you're talking ease of debunking these arguments at which point, I agree.

And I don't have a goal in terms of percent.  I believe that we need businesses to accept Bitcoin.  But business is up against public opinion.  They can't align themselves with something that seems corrupt, questionably legal, shady, etc.  Not say it is, but talking about perception.

For example:  Just look at the difficulty Bitcoin100 is having just getting charities on board. 

[Coinseeker]

Maybe you're right, because I'm not understanding this thinking.  "The more ridiculous their arguments the less work for us!"  Can you elaborate on this for me.

This one show is a perfect example.  They did more for Bitcoin than they did damage.  Those that believe what they are saying are lost.  Those that saw it and saw it as total bullshit are now thinking "must Google Bitcoin to see what they are so afraid of".  Those people are the ones that we want anyway.  The thinkers.

Hmm...that's fair.  Ok, I can totally see that view point.  

Sorry, I had added some comments while you were typing this, so I'm sure you missed the updates.  More focused on the wild ride on the markets ATM.