Bitcoin Forum

Well, Bitcoin had a good run. Ultimately, big government stands in the way of self-governance and that comes in the form of regulating ingenuity to death. The majority of people are indoctrinated and cannot see the value in this evolved payment system.

Who can disagree? Bitcoin is fucked.

Damn. You're right. Guess I'll sell now... or maybe I'll just check that ignore button.  ;D

That always ends up being the most popular response to the truth. Get mad at whoever tells it. Good one.

Oh shit, why has no one think of this. Thank you and time to sell. I would send you a generous bitcoin tip but Im sure you do not want it since its crashing anyway.

More predictable sarcasm which is totally off point. No wonder Bitcoin hasn't crashed yet. Good job.

I did a quick check on your previous posts, half of them are swear words/insulting someone or something.
Clearly you are serious business.

...aaaand done :3

Which Government, can you be more specific?

I don't feel you put much thought into this topic tbh.

no, he's put very little actual thought in his statement

If OP cared to look outside his little thought-box, in this here VERY SUB-FORUM, there are EVEN MORE well thought-out arguments than his as to how government regulation could HELP Bitcoin (the CFTC thread in particular...)

Puff puff, you'd better pass for good on that stuff dude.  Sometimes it makes you think you're thinking, but really you're not.

You would be reading the phrase many times "this user currently ignored"

lol i guess that is better material.

Ad hominem, and clearly you want people ignore me because my opinion doesn't compel people to buy Bitcoins. lol, so obvious. I would follow suit and ignore you as well, but there's a difference between you and I. You're lame, I'm not.

sounds like you're the one getting mad; at Bitcoin's success.

I'm actually basing this off what Bill Gates said yesterday on Fox Business News. He did not specify a government, but I'm assuming it doesn't matter, they all behave the same way. Regulating Bitcoin exchanges for the purpose of intercepting the free market, bogging it down, and thus making all the innovations of Bitcoin to be rendered no longer innovative. Sort of a "pick your poison" fiat or bitcoin, it will end up being the same thing.

What would I stand to gain from that attitude? Who actually is angry at Bitcoins success unless you are reliant on a corrupt tax system where you benefit? Since I am not, I have nothing to be mad at about Bitcoin succeeding. Problem is, it has not succeeded and is in a spot where I feel it is impossible for it to succeed, so I don't know what the fuck you're going on about.

I watched the video a few times (both high and sober) and each time, I got the EXACT opposite out of everything Gates said.  And all i got out of those older codgers was a bunch of ignorance.  I dunno man.  Different Strokes.

No; I tried.  You still end up seeing people you don't want to see in quotes anyway, and I found I spent way too much valuable time actually clicking ignore.  So I just let my brain click the button.

I guess that's our difference. I only watched it sober.

Seems to me like an endless blacklisting war.  Here's how I look at it.  When newbies come in they always bring up the same concerns over and over.  They either learn about bitcoin and mature or they leave.  Threads like this, and the general childish tone the board has taken on recently are an indicator of new users who are trying to understand it.  These are the people that can be won.  Not because we want to sell it to them, but because when they find the answers to their questions, they understand the magnitude of what they have stumbled on.  When the board is peaceful again, you'll know we've mostly assimilated or rejected the current wave exposure driven newbies.

Thought the same :D

A government might be able to stop it's residents from using digital fiat to buy and sell bitcoins.  That won't stop the rest of the world.  Good luck with a treaty banning honest money.  Also, unless we go cashless, bitcoins can and will continue be used under their nose.

I'm not exactly new to Bitcoin. Heard about it and have been following it since late 2011. I'm not saying I'm the smartest person. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems the childish ones are the ones who are creating this imaginative "bear" that has the sole purpose of causing you to sell your Bitcoins for no logical reason at all. Yea, because, that makes so much sense.

The problem isn't newbies floundering around with their questions, it's newbies (and some non-newbs) who simply don't form their arguments but jump to conclusions without consideration. Or they engage in sophistry, grabbing at straws, etc. It is a matter of the caliber of the thinker and how much thought they are willing to put in, or if they just want to make some easy money.

The classic example is a newbie asserting a conclusion with no real argument and acting like they did present an argument.

So, you're complaining about bearish posts by starting a thread saying bitcoin will be worthless?

Good points.  Easy money doesn't exist, so those who chase it will find themselves lost in the wilderness.

Edit: Unless you are a government or central bank ;).  But fiat doesn't really fit the definition of money.

You disappoint me.

Noob account, doom and gloom post subject but you failed on point 3: all caps.

Try again.

no, I'm saying it's silly that every user critical of anything related to Bitcoin is called a bear who's only purpose in life is to make you sell your bitcoins. I'm mocking at the attempt to pass that off as a logical collective perspective, and then they proceed to line up to ignore such users. what it really seems like is it's the other way around, YOU are the ones looking for "easy money" and are here collectively trolling/bullying anyone who HAS used their brain and come to a reasonable conclusion that can be stated in a few short sentences, because it just so happens to be a simple observation.

Nah, it wouldn't. Basically, when it comes to the forums, we're fucked.  ;D

Seriously, the more exposure Bitcoin gets, the more people become interested in it. And since most people are either unintelligent or inarticulate, this forum is doomed.

Get it, puffpuffpass? That's how one presents a reasoned argument  :D

you have your ways of doing things, I have my ways of doing things. who's being the child between the two? you

Thank you for clarifying.  I had not interpreted your previous statement properly.

As for you actual point, you are in the speculation subforum.  When you post here, people assume you are trying to share your view on price action.  Perhaps try bitcoin discussion if you want to actually discuss government regulation.

In English, "or" can be both inclusive ("Would you like sugar or cream in your coffee?  Yes, both please!") and exclusive ("turn left or right").  So i'd agree with you if you left out the word "either." :-[

I meant exclusive or, because I was speaking from the POV of using forum posts as an indicator.  If they leave, you have no data, so I don't care what they think about bitcoin if they leave.  You are correct that it does make a difference in the general sense, but that is much harder to measure.

[sarcasm]
Thank you for the English lesson.  I've only been speaking the language for 26 years.  Also, I appreciate the logic lesson.  I've only been programming computers for 14 years so I'm sure there is still more to learn about basic logical operators.
[/sarcasm]

I can't believe I just read this thread!

what a load of shit...


someone posts a totally un-backed piece of opinion and a whole thread develops around it. He even has the balls to insult people who dislike the OP because he apparently posted something of value.

At least I got to read about the general declining quality of posts in the forum from some older hands... because I didn't see that already :)


I apologise on behalf of the other newbies, they know not what they do

Teaching.  Thankless task at best, and I'm giving up.  Pearls before ... Oh, i'll cast a few more, why not? Here we go: 


The smart kids will get it anyway, the others ... well, the others will respond with [sarcasm][/sarcasm].
Now i go. :(

except you just did the same thing.

Zero thought into OP.

How can government do anything about Bitcoin? It's ridiculous idea - even if they did build a Great Chinese firewall you can always go through proxy or VPN and there will always be at least some countries which will never censor internet.

So saying "Bitcoin is fucked" make me think that you are one of the guys spreading FUD. Please add more info regarding your original thought or delete the topic before you make it to my very special list :).
Thank you.

Your missing the point. It's all about the perceptions of future adopters. It doesn't matter whether governments can technically take down the bitcoin network/protocol... they can massively inflate the perceived risks of future adopters.

When push comes to shove, the layman sees many alternatives to what bitcoin provides (especially since the vast majority only see bitcoin in terms of fiat and little more). If governments want to hurt bitcoin, they can censor, make transactions illegal (or cast them in a legally questionable light such that users will seek safer alternatives), use banks to target exchanges, businesses and even users -- seizing assets and crippling operations along the way. The negative press any such actions would bring would blow out of the water any and all fundamentally bullish indicators.

They can stop digital fiat exchange in their country.  They can't stop the rest of the world and they can't stop cash transactions.

I think that really depends on how useful people find bitcoin. Downloading/uploading movies via bittorent is illegal almost everywhere in some form or another, yet the audience and userbase of bittorent only continues to grow. Of course there isn't any zuckerberg who is the billionaire poster boy for creating it/selling it, but that doesn't stop it from being enormously useful for hundreds of millions of people (I have no idea how many).

It can be the same for bitcoin. Illegal or regulated, but extremely useful anyway. The black market remember is worth trillions and trillions of dollars. Regulation doesn't change that.

I don't know maybe I'm completely wrong but when I see goverment being afraid (banning/complicating things) I would personally say to myself - hey they are frightened to death by that thing - there must be a reason for it, so how can I exploit it to my own benefit? I always have this in mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102)

Maybe it's just me. I have no idea what average Joe will do, but considering what has happened in Cyprus and how many ordinary folks hate EU I would not underestimate them.

Exactly my thoughts. If enough poeple find something really useful I don't think law does matter that much.

So you don't think MAbtc's argument (a few posts up) carries some weight?  Bitcoin threatens the very core of governments -- collecting taxes & issuing currency.  Of course governments will  react if Bitcoin makes any noticeable mark on fiat economy.  Forgot who said "Give me control over a nation's money, and I care not who makes its laws," but he summed things up pretty well.  There was pretty sound reasoning behind not wanting Bitcoin to hit the limelights so early in the game.

Bitcoin is a method of taking back control of our money for ourselves.

Yes, it is a method for taking back control of our money.  I'm only worried that it's not likely to be a successful one.

Anything that gets regulated, belongs to the regulator.  Plain fact.

Bitcoin as a concept is free, however, any part of it, such as clearing the fiat to buy or sell bitcoins is a part of the regulators world, and so access to bitcoins is controlled.

The answer here is to build infrastructure to keep the regulator as far from bitcoin as possible.

However, to just give up, is pointless.  And that was how I read the OP statement - a white flag! ;)

or - a dedicated virtual currency bank based in panama

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1dyj70/update_coming_soon_a_private_fiat_bank_to_bitcoin/

You're mostly correct, but I still hold out hope. The sad fact is, the 90% sheep population will eat whatever mommy government feeds them. That said, bitcoin and decentralization is a worldwide movement, not just the U.S., and as an American, I hope there are other countries on Earth where the population cares about more than simply what Kardashians are doing or who is playing who on TV tonight. Not to start a political debate... but I have a feeling, with regards to US regulation, long term it won't matter anyway.  The US is an exponentially increasing decline due to the very factors you speak of. The fact bitcoin exists and NEEDS to exist is, IMO, proof.

I recognize that the US is not alone in regulatory bullshit, and sadly it probably won't be in my lifetime, but technology (like bitcoin) has the potential to change everything at such a fundamental level it's astounding to contemplate.

Here is to a bright future, even if in the short/medium term things are dark *cheers*

I think that might be a difficult task actually.

Well stated. By the way, I hope the Kardashians die.

Satoshi understood EXACTLY THIS (and begged people to keep a low profile).

Repeat:

ALL government power flows from currency and taxation...
It does NOT flow from controlling Hollywood movies on the internet.

But noooooooooo...
Even though $1,000,000,000 is a Rounding Error in the Grand Scheme...
Every freaking wannabe Hipster Dipster Closet Revolutionary has got a Raging Hardon for Bitcoin.

Full Tilt Poker was maybe 5-10 times larger than MtGox in 2010...
And living large in Ireland running everything out of a Big Slush Fund...
When the DOJ of Lower Manhattan shut it down in 5 minutes.

Pokers Star paid $731 million to settle with the US government.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2012/07/31/pokerstars-will-pay-547-million-to-settle-u-s-government-charges-and-buy-full-tilt-poker/

There is a non-trivial probability this is what happens to MtGox.

Perhaps we wouldn't have a "90% sheep population" if the 10% who are awake could quit denigrating them and instead win over their hearts and minds with honest ideals.  If you are right that "mommy government" is corrupt, it shouldn't be too hard.  Lead by example, not by putting down those who don't see things your way.

+1  Figured I give this TRUTH a thumbs up before the flaming beings.  Saying things like this is like poking a hornets nest with a stick.  "RUN!!!!!" 

Already tried this, on several occasions.  Instead, they put you down for being a "conspiracy theorist".  We're talking people who still believe their taxes are going to noble causes (some even believe the holy crusade for oil is about conquering the evil demons of the middle east.)  Anyway, I've yet to find a way to get through to these people.  I've been able to help my closer friends, but the so-called patriots are too far up their own asses to listen to reason.  It's almost like a religion; try arguing with a priest about the existence of God and see how well that goes.  In the end, the priest has quoted at least 10 Bible passages, hasn't changed his mind, and you're just frustrated that you wasted an hour going in circles.

lol. RUN!

No, if I am the hornets nest to be poked - I am not an irrational person and no one is required to agree or face my wrath. Furthermore, I think you are correct.

When I am confronted with someone who I believe is, IMO, a "sheep" I do try to reason with them, I am not like "SHEEP! FK U I'm going home!" lol. But, even when approached in a calm rational manner, it's hard to debate with people with the sheep mentality. When almost anything you say meets a response such as "Government knows best" / "Government just wants what's best for the people" or "I don't mind loosing (some) freedom to be safe" or "Why do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide?" it becomes very difficult to communicate - there is simply no common ground and common understanding to build from... They believe a fundamental is one way and I believe it is another, when that fundamental is most basic concept - it's an issue. When I debate with those types, I don't do so in a hostile manner, I want to gain understanding into their thought process with the hope they will do the same - but that is not what happens. They simply are either unable or unwilling to consider an alternate point of view. I will consider their point of view but generally reject with evidence, but it's still subjective. I might be wrong, who knows

The reason for the "sheep" attitude above is complicated... But IMO... it's basically they've focused on pop culture, being "happy" in the moment without regards for the future (just look at financial irresponsibility/credit debt/etc now) and don't care to see what happens in other nations now and throughout history. It's an extension of the "It won't happen to be attitude" and while I may at times be a bit pessimistic, I think it's possible to be too optimistic as well. Lets be real.

That said - The U.S. is a democracy - which I support, if that attitude is what people support and want, then it is I who is wrong and not them -  at least here.

Ah... a similar minded person posted while I was typing. +1 :)

+1

They can also target exchanges outside of the country through bank seizures. They can't stop the rest of the world, but think of a) the influence that the US government, for example, has on the policies of other governments, and b) what would happen to the price of bitcoin if the legal bitcoin-related market of major countries were to disappear. As for cash, we can't go back to the stone age. Continued growth IMO requires fast, electronic payment solutions.


IMO events like "Cyprus" only affect speculators. I think average people want proven stores of value that are easy to transact in (both in terms of fiat/asset exchange and ease of use). At this point, bitcoin can't offer this.

The real problem re government  is that if bitcoin does achieve significantly rising adoption levels, it won't be so thinly traded. It is at that point that it may receive unwanted attention. If the US government is afraid of something, it tends to squash it.

In this context, bitcoin may or may not achieve the mass appeal that would thrive despite government crackdown. Not so sure it will. I've seen it suggested here that drug prohibition is analogous to bitcoin prohibition -- crazy! Drug consumers don't have alternatives. Consumers have too many viable alternatives to bitcoin. The next question, then, is whether bitcoin can truly grow into more than its principal uses as a speculative vehicle for fiat, and currency for black market goods (drugs, gambling, etc).

So, not assuming either will happen, which comes first? A truly viable bitcoin economy? Or a government crackdown? I suppose that's the final question...


But file-sharing protocol is not an asset. People are not willing to pay for it. There is no market for money there -- I don't think it applies to bitcoin. I mean, who doesn't love free shit...  :D


Yes, this specifically is one of the things in the back of my mind that colors my longterm outlook on bitcoin. If this were to happen, the centralization that Gox entails could cripple bitcoin.