Bitcoin Forum

The Thread is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.0

The trick exposed for newbyes:

- the OP ask you tu extend your trust to him through Ripple for at least 1 BTC (while he implicity suggest 100 in the pic. Succesfully strategy if you look ripple live-graph)

- this allows him to send you BTC's IOUs. Those IOUs he's not going to pay with real bitcoin if you send back to him.

If you trust him, say for 20 BTC, and you have reliable BTC IOUs (from bitstamp, for example) in the same wallet, THE SYSTEM CAN SWAP IOUS TRUSTED BY HIM WITH IOUS TRUSTED BY BITSTAMP if this is usefull to operate a transaction between users in that trust-subnetwork.

I.E. the story will probably end with someone previously holding good-true-reedemable BTC loosing all and finding in his wallet only trash-IOUs issued by TradeFortess.

This will happen if anyone in the network (not necessarily TradeFortess, but he could do that with an anonimous wallet) send the trash IOUS to a trusted gateway exploiting YOU to create a pathway.



I don't know if his intentions are good but the method itself isn't, EVIDENTLY. Also if he doesn't actually want to steal money from anyone (which i doubt), he's allowing others to steal someone's money, knowingly.


The thread should be closed and he deserves the SCAM tag.

Also self-moderated topics in the newbyes section are the perfect beware of scammers, shouldn't be allowed.

Support, please.

PS: sorry for my english, i hope this was understandable anyway ; )


EDIT: TO SAVE YOUR MONEY, PUT IMMEDIATELY TO ZERO THE TRUST TO HIS ADDRESS and SEND BACK THE EXACT AMOUNT TO THE SOURCE TO CLEAN UP YOUR WALLET

Thanks for explaining how this could work as a scam. I won't be taking part. I'm unsure of intentions, but it seems unlikely that someone would just giveaway BTC, a few satoshi maybe but a whole BTC, I don't think so. :)

yes, was too expensive to be true :P

you're welcome, i'm glad that it is clear despite my orrible english :D

Those taking TF's offer are basically giving the network* a blank 100 BTC cheque in exchange for a 1 BTC cheque that TF never really says if he'll ever honour. Since he's said repeated that he thinks IOUs in general are worthless ...

*the network of those holding TF's BTC IOUs

Good info

And those who have good BTC (from Bitstamp, Weexchange...) are giving a gift to that network :P

I've noticed that, But I still did it anyways lol, Just going to have to create another account and leave that ^1btc^ Sitting. But is he a scammer? No.

Thanks

Thank you for the explanation, ervalvola.

But it has been a good demonstration by TradeFortress. Having that useless 1 BTC in my own Ripple wallet balance that I can't spend is far more convincing than a post containing an image of someone else's wallet.

MsCollec, if you're trying to exploit the system (as i see you have just put your address here) i warn you that there is nothing left for you there.



Why? If you expect a scammer to explain you what he's going to do, you're a scammed yourself :P

Incomplete info, misleading arguments that leads people to lose real money.

And he could just use an anonymous wallet to steal money himself.

Tradefortress hates Ripples.

?? Well, Lower your trust limit then? I think hes just trying to find a way to defeat ripples?

you're welcome, i'm glad to help.

By the way, i think that a demonstration whithout the risk of loosing 100 BTC for someone would have been much much much better :D


EDIT: it was a SMART demonstration (besides it is quite simple if you're used to ripple); that doesn't means it is good...

I don't think he is a scammer, he hates ripple and wants to prove that the system is awful.
Although I have to say that this anti-ripple action does make me feel a bit uneasy, because I have quite some coins trusted to TF.

Trust only people who you can REALLY trust. When you trust someone, you're trusting people him trusts too... it is a chain.

Trusting only established gateways is better, expecially untill the software is in beta and so many aspects still have to be investigated...

You don't have to leave anything. Just reset the trust line to zero since he clearly deserves zero trust in Ripple. That's all that is needed to keep BTC from TF screwing with your other BTC.

You can either keep the (near) useless BTC IOU or if you'd prefer to clear it out (since Ripple will only let you use/send it to others that have mistakenly trusted TF) you can just send the exact amount back to the source account after having zero'd the trust. BTW, that's what is required to lower your XRP reserves from the trust line; the reserves are only released when the trust is set to zero and the balance is <= 0.

thats what im saying

This is the point of the social experiment.

yes, sorry ironcross, i misunderstood; and thx to dchapes for the argument, i updated the first post.


But seriously, moderators should do something, people risks to lose money there.

I iggied the person, the moment i seen what it says under his avatar. Pedophile. And the person should be banned.

You are lucky that yet no one has lost money.

I don't agree with you, but i can understand the content of your criticism if you think fractional reserve is evil (which is a pretty easy way of watching economy).

Demonstrating your thesis with a scam, putting people in the conditions of loosing his money because they trust you, is a bad way. Close that thread.

It, at the end, weakens your arguments.

By the way, believing that you hadn't the intentions of stealing some bitcoin is really, REALLY hard.

Scam is, and should be treated like a scam.

What made you think that? I Wasnt even thinking about anything related to that kind of nature... I posted that because as you seen in the picture, the man ate the girl. Wth? please dont post things proven not to be true.

@ironcross: should we thank him for bumping the thread and press ignore? ; )

It doesnt really matter, Maybe I shouldnt have posted that if people would have thought the wrong way on this forum?!?

 ;D I don't think he is scamming anyone, just proving that ripple is a scam.

TradeFortress is deleting posts in the mentioned topic he doesnt like:

Of course; he doesn't want anybody to breack the game...

Once again, people rescue to loose money there... moderators should do something...

So is this guy banned yet?

No, not yet...

He's simply exploiting the lack of knowledge and the trust that people gave him...

That's not a "social experiment" - that's called fraud dipshit.

never trust some one you don't really know

This make me confusing  ??? ???
So TF what are you clarifications about this  ?

See https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2552
Users ironcross360 and MyZhre/Andj are actively making BTC payments through these IOUs to Bitstamp for withdrawal.

sad but predictable :\

Here it is the official accusation post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207841.new#new

Maybe i should add those users too, but the responsible is the organizer and the issuer of the fake bitcoins in my opinion.

I think he proves a very big bug in the entire ripple system.

If anyone can make those imaginary BTC or any other currency in the ripple system, and he sends that fake currency to alot of persons..

User 1, Fake bitcoin owner try to buy something paying with bitcoins in ripple, starts a topic or something, and send the fake BTC first.
User 2, receives the fake BTC and send the item who was selling (LTC, ripples, USD,etc) then he realizes that he cant trade his BTC anywhere, because its fake and get scammed.

No he hasn't.
It's not fake BTC.

He conned a bunch of newbies into trusting him for 100 BTC with the promise of "1 free Ripple BTC". He gave a pretty picture so that the newbies without a clue could follow his misguided instructions.

Those users have placed a trust in TradeFortress that he is good for 100 BTC when of course he has absolutly no intention of doing so. His goal is to let others use Ripples liquidity features to take the gateway BTC of any newb that has any. One person had 1 BTC/Bitstamp taken out of his account in exchange for 1 BTC/TradeFortress (because that's what TradeFortress knowingly conned the nebie into telling Ripple it was okay to do).

The only way this can happen is if User 2 *also trusts* TradeFortress. If not there will either be no payment path or the path will go through someone that trusts TradeFortress.

TradeFortress is doing everyone a favor, showing how you can be ripped off or stiffed in an easy way. This could be a loop hole to allow Ripple to take your money and keep it and label it fraud.

TradeFortress is a reputable member of the forum for what seems to a long time, he puts more into Crypto than most. Im sure he has no need to take your money or SCAM you.

I would trust TradeFortress, with my wallet and kids.

Now i believe ripple is not a scam, which make TradeFortress so nervious,
this guy do everything possible to agaist ripple, why?

In my opinion based on what I have learned, Ripple will probably work and people will most likely use it since big corporations will tell them its ok. The reasoning be hind the [SCAM] tag it because the company's behind it will profit massively.  Which will be ok for some, I personally don't want someone profiting from transactions I place or when I move my money.  So scam may be a bad word choice but simply saying its a bad idea nobody pays attention.

How ever you word it, that's what Bitcoin was made to avoid. Control.

Why am I getting messages in my inbox saying my posts critical of this experiment are being deleted by you?

If it's a social experiment, then wouldn't you have the incentive to make it seem fairly conducted (ie those critical to the experiment would have their voices aired, and their objections explained)

This is not a bug.  Users can trade this BTC to exactly the users who trusted TF who have not yet removed their credit limits to him.  This is by design.  TF might have just allowed 30-100 btc newbies to conduct real trade with eachother who might not have had any BTC to their name, based on TF's trust alone.

Now that seems to be a long shot, but that's the kind of long shot that Ripple at least makes possible.

"Ripple" is a protocol not an entity.  "Ripple" is not going to take your money any more than "Bitcoin" will.

Also I love the logic here -- TF is proving that he is a reputable person who would never scam you by scamming 30 people.  Isn't that what you're saying here? 

I mean, personally I don't think what he's doing is a scam, but isn't that the argument you're making here?

Ripple is about taking the control that central banks have over the money supply and giving it to everyone.

This is not unlike Bitcoin

Nonsense. Ripple is controlled in full by one company, who can do whatever they want with any funds in the system.

One company is not everyone, they have control over supply and demand of XRP. Which gives them control over the price. Bitcoin lets everyone Mine, and people determine the value of it.

You just described Bitcoin

This is only true until they actually release their server -- at which point they will be just another network participant abiding by the rules which they are clearly laying out on the wiki ( https://ripple.com/wiki/Main_Page ).

For the time being, you probably shouldn't use the system as it's in development -- use the pre-existing versions such as http://www.villages.cc instead.

First of all, let's get one thing clear here.  XRP is not Ripple.  XRP is an anti-spam mechanism that just happens to be a special purpose currency..  The fact that they call it 'ripples' is confusing, but Ripple is much more than XRP.

The price of XRP is basically a non issue.  People determine the price of XRP -- the currency that, I will remind you, is created *by* OpenCoin.  TF is not dealing in XRP.  TF is dealing in Bitcoin.

Its clear, your book smart. You can read what they tell you and believe only what they tell you. Like I said it will probably work, and some people will like it.

Still doesnt change the fact it was made to make money for those who made it. A for profit Item that the company wants everyone to use so they can take money from everybodys pocket.

Just so you know, I predate OpenCoin's involvement with Ripple.  While their solution is, in my opinion the legitimate heir to the previous attempts, it's not a matter of believing this is a good idea because they say so.  It's a matter of believing it is a good idea because it works.


This is not a zero sum game.  They are not taking money from everyone's pocket -- at worst they are allocating themselves money which, up until they made it, did not exist, in a future world where it is valuable.  They are creating value, and then allocating some of that created value to themselves for the trouble of it.

Yes I agreed dude, TF is reputable member, I have PM him before and his reply is nice and fast..
That's why I'm confusing about this this thread....
Because I Think, Nobody people for that excellent reputation like that
to scamm any member of this forum. That's is very stupid things.
Built reputation is hard ,...
Please ..... don't judge any people scammer with out valid proof.

Thanks

Does Bitcoin have a bug because if someone convinces you to send your Bitcoin to their account, you lose them? If people aren't able to safely use powerful tools, then the world is not ready for either Ripple or Bitcoin.

I'm a pretty sophisticated user, and every time I send Bitcoins, I admit I have this moment of panic where I wonder if I've done everything exactly right because I know that if I cut/pasted the wrong account or made some other similar mistake, my money is gone. While we can do some work to make both systems safer, this really is just a question of whether people are ready for access to powerful financial tools that permit pseudonymous transactions that are irreversible or whether people are just too dumb and careless to be trusted with that kind of power and will only hurt themselves.

It's not a simple question.

Precisely for this reason there is no need to launch crusades against Ripple.
Because this is not a social experiment .. is a crusade

So it's not a bug in Ripple that one's account balance can show 1 trillion BTC?

No. Garbage in, garbage out. Is it a bug in the forums that I can make them say: 2 + 2 = 5

If you tell it to consider something worthless to be worth 1 trillion BTC, then it will tell you that you have something worth 1 trillion BTC. And, worse, it will trade something worth 1 BTC to get it, causing you to lose 1 BTC. It does what you ask it to do. If you tell it do something stupid, it can hurt you.

Ripple is a trading and payment platform. You have to tell it what assets are worth because it has no way to know otherwise. There are no central authorities to set exchange rates or tell you what assets are really worth.

As I said above, "this really is just a question of whether people are ready for access to powerful financial tools that permit pseudonymous transactions that are irreversible or whether people are just too dumb and careless to be trusted with that kind of power and will only hurt themselves."

No, it is the way it runs but, should you trust a user who has 1 trillion BTC in his balance?
The first thing i've learned when nearing Ripple is that trust is a delicate matter. Opencoin itself recommandes to not extend trust if you don't precisely understand what it is.



I totally don't care of the reputation of the guy, who is clearly obsessed by Ripple. I don't even know (and i'm not interested) if his intentions are good. But he's putting ingenuous people in the conditions of loosing a lot of Bitcoin, real ones.

You're not the only one brother.

 :o :o I think

Fair enough. I understand the principle. But I don't see "the masses" being able to use the system successfully as it stands. It will be interesting to see what scams get developed to exploit this.

Disgusting behavior. Honestly this is inexcusable and only serves to hurt any trust in crypto currencies as a whole. Nicely done keeping the worth of Bitcoin down.

Although I think what TradeFortress did was very dishonest, predatory, and manipulative I think it's worth pointing out the sum total effect on Ripple of his "experiment".

Some people are claiming this indicates some kind of major flaw in Ripple or that there are now "counterfeit" BTC or some other disastrous result. The reality is bit different.

In reality only those foolish enough to trust TradeFortress "risked" anything. Of those, only one single account had anything other than dust amounts of BTC/Bitstamp traded out of their accounts. That one account had a 1.0 BTC/Bitstamp balance before they trusted TradeFortress and now has a 1.0 BTC/TradeFortress balance instead. This is exactly what that person told Ripple he was willing to have. He's trusting TradeFortress to hold his BTC for him.

The other result is that now there is a pool of people that are willing send payments around to each other in BTC/TradeFortress. If someone wants to trust BTC/TradeFortress to join this pool they can. This effects the rest of the Ripple network and Ripple users not at all.

The warnings posted were not about any issue with Ripple, but about informing new users that might otherwise be fooled, that extending trust means that you trust the person and that people can abuse that trust.


Some people see a screen shot showing an account with a 1,000,000 BTC balance and get excited/upset/whatever. Why? If I presented a photo of an official document from Bob's Credit Union that says my account there has 1,000,000,000,000 USD would that get you excited/upset/whatever? People would be foolish to deal with me or Bob's Credit Union based on that document just as they're foolish to trust and deal with TradeFortress on Ripple.


There have been a few analogies used that might help to put this into perspective or to make it clear to people what is/was going on here. There are a number of people attempting to spread misleading information or cloud the issue. The solution to bad information is good information. Consider the following:
(follow the links to see the context or rest of their posts, my apologies if I mistakenly take someone out of context or include a quote of someone here that would rather I didn't)

(I included slothbag's quote embeded within another because the orginal post, along with a number of others, was deleted)

What would you think of someone if back when bitcoin was starting out, they had asked new bitcoiners to post their bitcoin private keys in exchange for a small payment or trade and if that same someone knew full well what the consequences of posting private keys would be? Would you excuse it as long as the person claimed to not use the secret keys themselves? Would you think it somehow showed a fundamental problem with bitcoin or with cryptography in general? Would you think it shows that some people are nieve and trust people with things that they don't understand?

Another analogy that I can't find (I think the post was deleted) was made by themusicgod1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=22153). It was something like: imagine "Bob's Credit Services" offering you a credit card with $100 worth of FREE credit on it under the conditiion that you accept Bob's Credit Cards for upto $10,000. The small print is that Bob's Credit Cards are only accepted by others that also take this offer.


Some other points worth highlighting:

[/quote]Does Bitcoin have a bug because if someone convinces you to send your Bitcoin to their account, you lose them? If people aren't able to safely use powerful tools, then the world is not ready for either Ripple or Bitcoin.[/quote]

Does ripple have a bug that allows users to get conned? thats debatable, but your bitcoin anology is weak. ripple has extremely poor implementation that allows users to be easily caught out because it fails to implement KISS procedures......systems 101.

shocked that its semi-live even in this beta stage.

No its not a bug, Its the ripple interface itself, , thats why its a scam.

Non sequitur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29)

Sadly, another guy is trying this scam:

• Crypto-Giveaways: Free Ripple BTC Giveaway! (http://crypto-giveaways.blogspot.com/2013/05/free-ripple-btc-giveaway.html)
• Twitter: @CryptoGiveaways (https://twitter.com/CryptoGiveaways)

Cheers,