Bitcoin Forum

Will it ever happen?  :o

No, before that happens USD will have ceased to exist. I don't think we'll ever see the day someone pays $1M for a bitcoin.

thats a market cap of 22,000,000,000,000... that's exactly how much obama has spent during his term.  Who knows, maybe your next president will do the same but he will spend it all on bitcoin.   :D

(sarcastic way of saying no)

An easy no, never, ever, ever will it happen.  The king of all delusions.

No, simply because there will be billions of "Bitcoin bubbles" before then. The crash after $250 will happen again and again, just at different values...at least until Bitcoin gains enough popularity to help stabilize the currency a bit. I'd be impressed if I see $1,000 a coin in my lifetime.


Interesting! That's nearly 30% of the global M3 money supply!

(sarcastic way of saying "think before you speak")

Start by knocking off three zero's and then we can talk about if that will be the bottom and is $5000USD a possibility (which is still most likely a no)

+1

The question should have been something more like "Will 1 Bitcoin ever be worth 730oz of gold"

It will never happen, I don't think it will become close either, there will be hundreds of Bitcoin bubbles before then.

On one hand, if the USD tanked, anything is possible.

On the other hand, no one has mentioned technology. Why expect such a big boon to stop at bitcoin's current development team and code? Why wouldn't something better than bitcoin come along by then, fueled by the then common knowledge the developing such a solution would be profitable for the producer and participants?

Why is it everyone thinks bitcoin is the *end*? It's just the beginning.

I'm picturing a variety of altcoins, perhaps room for 5-10 in the worldwide market, led by bitcoin, whose price always has been traditionally the highest.

Buy a pack of gum with ppcoin, a house with bitcoin. Or who knows no telling how it will pan out. Maybe BTC will be a million, litecoin 100,000, and ppcoin a hundred.

Fiat would still exist, but it would be used primarily for the government to do the things it needs to do.

So many people in this world. It almost seems like an inevitability if this daydream comes true.

Take this same argument and think Internet instead of Bitcoin. Or, more specifically, IPv4. Why hasn't someone developed a better protocol than IPv4 and have it take over the Internet? There is tons of money in it, think of all the routers you could sell!

It hasn't happened because IPv4 is entrenched. Switching to something else is too much work. A new protocol would have to be better than IPv4, and not a little bit better, but MASSIVELY better to make it worth while. And, and BTW, there IS a newer, better protocol and its called IPv6. And it is being adopted, but very very slowly, because its a bunch of work and IPv4 is working and is "good enough".

And that is why Bitcoin is in it for the long haul, its got the head start. In business terms this is called the first mover advantage. Sure, Bitcoin is really small compared to the Internet/IPv4, but in terms of cryptocurrency it is way out in front. For it to be replaced there will either have to be a catastrophic failure of Bitcoin, or the replacement will have to be massively better.

Its also why Litecoin will never get much traction. You could argue that it is better than Bitcoin (I wouldn't), but even if it is, its only *slightly* better, and that will never overcome Bitcoins head start.

Note: the first mover doesn't always win. In some kinds of business being the first mover is actually a disadvantage. But in terms of technology like this first mover almost always "wins". Unless they had the right idea, but screwed up a fundamental aspect of the technology. I think its pretty clear that Bitcoin is solid technology.

Key flaws in your argument:

• The internet is mainly hardware infrastructure. Swapping it out for fibre-optic (which is already happening) and upgrading the protocol (IPv6) is already happening, despite the costs. The costs of swapping out open-source bitcoin code with another code however are highly negligible.
• The internet isn't money; its inherent value is in information sharing. The market has decided that Bitcoin has a financial value for the bits and pieces of information it sends back and forth. Thanks to the versatility of technology such as the internet, there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from developing a smarter, safer system for value transfer and just releasing it as open source onto the internet.

If the size of the bitcoin-using community grows 40x to 45x larger, and it's impossible to increase the amount of bitcoins in circulation (beyond the existing block reward system), then bitcoins will eventually trade for $5000/ea.

If USD continues to lose value it will happen even faster.

I predict $5000 by 2016.

the cost of swapping out code may be negligable, however you will still meet like resistance with getting bitcoin users holding anything more than insignificant amounts to essentially throw away their BTC and put their support into better-coin.  In this case, momentum is gonna be a bitch.  The only way for this to happen would be if better-coin was built on top of bitcoin and automatically imported all BTC balances into the better-coin genisis block.
 

Once again, just because better-coin is smarter, safer doesn't automatically mean everyone will just drop bitcoin and start using it.  If you've got billions of value sitting in bitcion, you are going to need to seemlessly migrate that value into better-coin.

So, the question now becomes, if all BTC balances and wallets are already there the moment of better-coin's genisis, is better-coin really better-coin? or is it BTCv2 ?

Sigg

You just described the process in which bitcoins are gaining adoption against other currencies-- slowly. (It takes a while to build trust and get over sunk cost fallacies.)

Then you are left holding the bag, like every other failed investment in history. No single person holds billions of value in bitcoin. It is lots of people holding smaller amounts. The transition from a great concept to a great *flawless* concept is not as difficult as you think when the free market is at work and there are not regulations restricting said progress.


You're suffering from sunk costs fallacy if you think bitcoin will be the end and not the beginning. A superior currency model to bitcoin would be one that does not share bitcoin's flaws (massive energy consumption, etc). Don't forget, the smartest minds in the world have not even started looking into bitcoin yet. This is just the beginning.

honestly, I'm sick of threads like this.

what's the point of talking about something so ridiculous?

In my two years here, "circle jerking" is the best definition I can come up with.

I'm a massive optimistic, so I voted yes  8)

Anybody who voted yes should consider checking themselves into that mental hospital that rpietila is in.

uhh so i was 1 trillion off?  shit, i should watch my mouth!

If anyone agrees with this guys I'd be happy to see 1,000 per BTC in my LIFETIME sentiment... Then I would suggest you put on your thinking cap, and ponder for a bit on what a game changer these coins are.

It's certainly possible... if the U.S. experiences hyper inflation, it could happen. It might cost 500,000 USD to purchase a beer, but I wouldn't discount that possibility.

Will it be worth 1M in today's dollars? I highly doubt that.

In anycase, I consider cryptocurrecny (as well as foreign fiat) as part of an investment portfolio to be wise.

You make a great point, antimattercrusader.  While I've felt the best-case long-term valuation for Bitcoin (global adoption has hit equilibrium, transactional friction eliminated) was $100,000 to $300,000.  But that number is meaningless without a frame of reference. The implicit statement has always been "in today's money".  If a hyperinflation scenario were to balloon the USD in existence 10x, I would increase that range proportionally.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Bitcoin is definitely a game changer, but they have already shown incredible resilience.  The potential for them as a disruptive force is incredible

One of the coolest aspects of Bitcoin is realizing that - and then realizing that others could start to realize it too.

Max Keiser predicted this a while back.

If each American held bitcoins, each American could only hold approx. 0.06709265175 btc with 313 Million people in the USA
If each citizen worldwide held bitcoins, each citizen could only hold 0.003 btc.
Now if only 1% of the world population adopted bitcoins (70 Million) and held some they could each hold only 0.3 btc.

That tells me bitcoins could reach 1,000,000.00 each some time in our future.
Max could be right.

In a fixed example, that is absolutely true. In the real world full of competitors with deep pockets and governments striving to remain relative and in their people's favor, it is highly unlikely. Most likely, MintChip will happen to every country before bitcoin ever gets a chance to get that big, and that's when the political idealists will be the *only* ones using it, instead of people looking for an interesting, cheap and fascinating technology to use for payments.

Mintchip is nothing like Bitcoin. All currencies backed by London and the bank of England, i.e. Canada, Federal Reserve etc. will all fall to inflation due to their criminal complicity. Then, who will want to use that when the fascist governments are tracking everything you do, taxing you for it, and looking for ways to indict you for doing nothing?
Bitcoins are nothing like these government issued cyber currencies, in that they are not crypto currencies and they are all regulated and heavily controlled. YOU, are certainly welcome to use them, but I choose not to. Many others choose not to, as well. We'll choose bitcoin anyday.

also this...http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/04/12/mintchip-misses-the-point-of-digital-currency/
..."There are other aspects of the system that Bitcoin users are likely to object to. The currency creation model is centralized: value is originally injected into the system by the Royal Canadian Mint and customers can purchase value to spend by going through trusted brokers. The system is designed to be able to force upgrades, giving the Mint the power to introduce onerous tracking features over time if it so desires. Innovative means of value storage like paper and brain wallets are out of the question, since nothing can be done without the physical chip, and it’s impossible to have an online wallet that does not require trusting the provider."

Dude. That's got to be a record or something for proving my point right after a post.

it already happened!  ;D

I think that what's happening now in places like Cyprus and in Argentina, potentially Ireland has the potential to create a lot of political idealists, or at the very least, people who don't want to keep all of their wealth in a government or bank backed currency.  These likely won't be the only places where that happens.

More to the point, it's likely Bitcoin won't be the *only* solution, as the creation of new wealth will eventually be controlled by those with the largest mining rig investments. It's more likely a decentralized system of trade (something like Ripple was *trying* to do but has so far failed at) will be introduced that makes Bitcoin obsolete to anyone who didn't invest heavily into it. I love Bitcoin, but I also love my girlfriend. It doesn't mean I can't imagine ever loving another girl (especially if she dies).

Yes, but not in today's dollars.

It can happen fairly easily, after being adjusted for inflation is another matter.

well typical speculation from people in the speculation sub-forum.

Only if this happens:
http://www.richardsona.com/storage/idiocracy_money.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1221371012354

Yes, it will happen. Actually...we can make it happen right now.

I am willing to sell the first bitcoin ever purchased for a million dollars.

I do this for the community.

 ;D  Way to take one for the team.

If it ever reaches that point, then bitcoin won't be valued in $ most likey

Epic. Just epic. Its nice to see Im not the only fan.

And to the point I could not agree more!   :D

IPv6 is a bit like BFL, it's been "just around the corner" for 15 years, and it's just begun trickling out for the past couple of years.

I like money.

Rephrase the question to: "In the future, Would 1BTC get you what $1M  could get you today?". My answer is yes. Near future? Highly doubt it. Not so near future? Yes it would.

Delusional? You see the world believes in a pile of crap called the financial system. What if a new boy on the block comes and got attraction? $1M a Bitcoin is only 10% of the global Forex market, You know.

Totally agree, and Apple will become the only electronics company in the world.

The sooner people stop attaching political ideologies and agendas to bitcoin, the sooner it can grow.

The only possible way this happens is if the US $ loses its status as the international reserve currency, the US enters a massive depression, followed by hyperinflation. 

Doesn't sound that unlikely to me. :P

1,000,000 is fucking insane. Though I believe in bitcoin and think it will reasonably grow in value in the next decade, so instead of trading, I've decided to just become a hoarder. If I'm an investment animal I'll make up my own and become a dragon. I'll hoard these coins and protect them.

In my opinion a $1000 bitcoin is possible and realistically, I can't see it becoming worth more than $10,000. However, depending on how long BTC survives and thrives, which actually looks good for the next 10-30 years, who knows. My guess is definitely within 100-1000 in the next five to ten years though.

bitcoin went from pennies to hundreds. I remember people saying that would never happen too.

I've never doubted Bitcoin would reach $100 nor that it started at pennies. I've doubted it would:

1) End all government control in the world
2) Cure cancer
3) Reach a million dollars per coin
4) Force everyone to become libertarians or anarchists

The Cure for Cancer Has Been Found and is Purposely Being Ignored
Author: Claire Bear
Published: May 14, 2011 at 4:59 am

I couldn't believe it when I saw the headline myself: a simple cure has been found to treat cancer!

As unbelievable as that is, the more shocking news is that the treatment is not being mass-produced or even taken note of by the medical or news communities.

Horrifying, isn't it?

I'm even more devastated by this, because someone I know actually died yesterday after a battle with breast cancer for a few years. She was a wife and a mother leaving behind three young boys.

The cure was discovered by scientists at the University of Alberta, in Edmonton, Canada. The cure uses Bitcoins, a simple cryptocurrency used to treat metabolic disorders. Because it's so decentralized, it had no side effects and also requires no identification. Therefore, it is relatively cheap (at least in comparison to current cancer treatments) and will actually cure cancer rather than warding it off.

Also because of the fact that it can't be patented, it's hard to make a large profit off of it. Due to this, pharmaceutical companies won't touch it, because it doesn't help their pockets.This is why this discovery isn't being celebrated and making front-page headlines.

The hope is that independent companies can perfect this cure and manufacture it for the patients that desperately need it. It will be difficult going against a a major lobbyist business interest such as the pharmaceutical industry who have their hands deep in politicians' pockets, but the more the public becomes aware of this great discovery, the less can be done against it.

So, spread the word, so this cure won't go the way of the apricot seeds cancer treatment or AIDS treatment. You also may want to rethink your position on Obamacare as pharmaceutical companies were one of the major proponents of the bill. It's sad that America is basically coming down to the people vs. major corporations as evidenced by this, Wall Street bailouts, GE getting to skip out on taxes, and so much more, while each tries to get crooked politicians to further their will.

America is at a crossroads and these next few months and years with business and government blurring lines and personal issues such as each citizen's health becoming public with Obamacare, will define which way we go.

http://technorati.com/lifestyle/article/the-cure-for-cancer-has-been (http://technorati.com/lifestyle/article/the-cure-for-cancer-has-been)

$1500 stable in less than 2 1/2 years (after spike to $5000)

It'll be best to sell on bubbles then eh?  :D

I didn't think of that. I'd like to change my vote!

I belief over 1,000 usd and maybe 10,000

This is my plan :-)

Why such a question in the first place? Total amount of bitcoin is limited, and total amount of dollar is growing forever, so does economy/debt, it is the most sure thing to happen, just no one knows how long it gonna take

To those doubting bitcoin can go to one million. look at golds market cap. do you really doubt bitcoin can reach that? the growth of awareness and use has been phenomonal.

I even cashed out of btc at one point but I went right back in. There is only one bitcoin, nothing else with its potential. and nothing else on the horizon. Dont let normalcy bias crowd your judgment, it can and will happen

:o

i hope so, not for the price but because everyone in the world will use bitcoin  ;D
however, i dont think 1.000.000$/coin, probably less then 10.000$

The real question is will $1,000,000 ever be worth 1 Bitcoin again once we overtake.

This.

/Thread

yeah i dont know about future of dollar, lets say that 1 btc will be worth a second hand car  8)

If that happens, it will be a hyperdeflation and it will be the beginning of the death of bitcoins.

no, bitcoin will never reach $1M.  and i am never wrong.

A powerful argument lol

Except that time when when the girl you met in that bar turned out to be a man.

There are two halves to "supply and demand," of course, and you might be forgetting the latter. If there's a better product than Bitcoin, or if users lose interest in it for some other reason - it's very possible BTC will hit $0 way before we come close even to $1,000.

Bitcoin will be lucky to hit $250 again.

Let's start small.

The logic behind this point is overwhelming...

Anyone saying BTC will be worth anything other than $0 or $10,000+ in 3+ years is delusional.

To do a proper analysis, you need to speculate on the % of the market of total broad money that BTC holds.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2215rank.html

It appears there is something like $70+ trillion of broad money stock from all countries. It seems a very optimistic view for the 5-10 year horizon would be for BTC to gain 2-10% of broad money.

2% of broad money = $1.4 trillion market cap = $66,666/BTC (21 million coins)

10% of broad money = $7 trillion market cap = $333,000/BTC

Interesting way to look at it.  There might come a day when we do not even care about what a "dollar" is worth.  It will be about how much BTC it costs, really.  So, the question is, will I be able to buy a really nice house for 1 BTC?  If so, I might be able to buy a few at that price!  ;D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Good, sentiment is renormalizing.

I like this.

That's when I'll sell the first little bit I have and pay off my debts and keep a nestegg.

Have a back up plan  ;)

Too many dreamers are in here.

FIrstly BTC suffers a lot from its volatility.  If BTC raises too fast to high values that will be worth and finally its value will drop. I set a grow limit at 10% per month - everything beyond that is not good anymore. For long term that means BTC cannot grow more than 200% each year - means the exchange rate at the middle of next year will be around 1 BTC eq 300 USD.

ANd this Szenario already presumes that the rate itself is held more or less stable. That again presumes no effective government attacks and a limited speculation.

My recommendation is everybody starts to trade BTC on the current price base over  https://localbitcoins.com keeping the coins in the market will stabilize the course.

Human beings tend to be just terrible at predicting things like this.  The first step is to admit we really do not know then we can start guessing realizing they are just guesses.

I've written an expression down that represents a number between 0 and 1,000,000.  If you can guess it then I'll give you a prize.  I'll give you a hint; it isn't an integer.  Anyone that thinks they can predict the number is fooling themselves but it can be fun guessing and rationalizing the guess.  Also, note the prize is variable; if the exchange rate between today's Bitcoin and today's US dollar goes to $0 then you can have all of my Bitcoins leftover at the moment it dies.  If the rate does top $1,000,000 then the prize will be 1 BTC.

Economics fail.

Your challenge is not applicable: market is governed by society, society is composed by humans, and human behavior is far from random.
In fact, it is quite predictable if you have the accurate variables and models.

Using your example: It is not about arbitrarily setting a number, but having a set of obscure and complex rules for the generation of this number between 0 and a million. If you give me enough time with this black box I will be able to approximate very closely and predict the next numbers.
Maybe not exact, but good enough.

That's how social sciences work, and the black box is our human mind.
We have enough empirical information about human behavior to estimate a possible outcome under certain variables.

A good point: "Users lose interest". The interest for anything could be lost and cause the value to drop. (I just bought an air conditioner with $200 and found out that it is terribly loud, I lost the intrest immediately and now wanted to sell it for $100)

But why don't people lose the interest for USD? Because it has universal equivalent property, unless they totally lost the intrest for everything, money can always exchange something they are interested in

So does bitcoin, if bitcoin can be used to buy anything in the world, then the interest for bitcoin will be higher than fiat money due to limited supply and ease of use, low fee, international payment... many advantages

I just checked the April data, about 5 million houses sold each year

If all the real estate agencies accept bitcoin payments, then the total amount of coins are not enough to buy all the houses from a couple of years production

Alright, but, it isn't just one human mind; it is billions of them.  In my experience human minds work differently enough that sometimes in a few words I can convey a concept and inspire rapid action vs. a strong negative reaction to the same concepts to the point of risking relationship or even life and limb.

So, I will give another hint; the most significant digit (MSD) is 9 narrowing the field down by a factor of 9 (the MSD couldn't have been 0).  There; all human minds operate similarly enough because they are constrained to the physics of the brain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain).  My expression is very very far from random http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_randomness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_randomness); it is in fact stunningly ordered as compared to something truly random.  No one has written a computer program attempting to predict the exchange rate, right?

Make no mistake; no one here is remotely close to estimating any possible outcome at all based on any variables.  We are strictly guessing for the fun of it.  Anyone that thinks they are predicting anything in this space is categorically delusional but that can be a delightful source of fun too.

Heck, the environment alone can wreck havoc with any and all predictions.  When the comet strikes and takes out the planet, unless we've escaped to safety elsewhere, the exchange rate won't matter.  If so then I will declare a push and not payout.

I predict Bitcoin reaches $1,000,000 by 2020.

The thing about money spent, is that it goes somewhere and keeps moving.

The total spending could equal 21 trillion, but its not like he ever held 21 trillion at one time.

I guess..

next bubble price : 2500

gold parity before 2015 !

At the current rate, that would mean 11.18 million million usd. It just seems a little too big to believe. I hope I'm wrong.

My logical side agrees with you, but then I look back at Bitcoin's growth so far.  I think early on $6 would have been a little too big to believe, and similarly with $30, and $266.

I'm not saying that $1M is around any of the next few corners, but if Bitcoin were to somehow survive 10-20 years without another cryptocurrency taking it's place at the top - combined with inflation of fiat - it's a conceivable number.

Social psychology, sociology and economy take care of the masses.
There isn't a general model that encompasses from neuropsychology to psychology of masses, in the same way that there isn't still a Theory of Everything in physics (that means, a theory that explains quantum to relativity which are by themselves incompatible to each other).
That's why your example is inapplicable again, you can't talk about physics, neurology or theories of mind to explain social behavior, we are talking of different scales and different specialties.
But it is just all a matter of time, our behavior is definitely deterministic, we just haven't uncovered the whole picture yet.

But what we have is good enough to have a very important impact, and its practical application in our daily lives are scary, especially when you see how heavily -and effectively- exploited it is in advertising.
In any case, while I consider to be impossible for now to predict exact prices, I am more than satisfied with my pretty accurate predictions of trends. Not exact but good enough to be profiting quite handsomely.

One advice: everything seems impossible if you ignore the answers. Never consider something to be random or impossible from ignorance, that mentality itself is very unscientific.
One problem: humans hate to be cataloged or to be considered predictable, because that undermines their illusion of free will.

So if the buying power of 1BTC is ever equivalent to the buying power of $1,000,000 and $500,000 buys an average house, those with .5BTC can buy one house.  BTC may eventually be exchanged in such small amounts as mbtc and ubtc (especially if 1 BTC is worth more than $10,000 I would think) That will be a nice day for those of us that are early adopters in this.  Will it happen? I can't see the future.  I think some of the people who bought BTC when they were $1 might be surprised at what they are worth now though so maybe it will be the same for us.

I was thinking you were going to say that.  :)

I bet a few years ago you would have been impressed to see an anonymous, global, laundering system get accepted by the public...

You mean like cash?  ;D

Nope. Cash can be traced.
That's why laundering exists.

I can't see it happening, all other currencies would have to fail for this to even have a chance I think. Bitcoin would have to be the main source of payment. Who knows? I hope it proves me wrong, I can retire.....lol.

Why do you think there's mixing services for bitcoins?

No. I think other coins support Bitcoin.

If every town in the world had it's own local crypto currency which could be traded out for state crypto currency, that could be traded out for a national crypto currency, and since BTC started it all, it would be what everyone traded their stuff for in the end.

Of course at first the en goal will be cash, but pretty soon I think people are going to stock up with multiple fiat currencies. Then eventually certain dollars will just disappear in exchange for those fiats, and the new local crypto coins.

And all of this would help make Bitcoin more valuable and mainstream.

To double launder. The coin can't be traced, I'm pretty sure it's the transactions that people are mixing for, so the coin doesn't say they sold whatever they sold.

What do you mean the coins can't be traced? They can be traced to their creation!  ???

But they can't be traced to a computer. A person can not be blamed for the contents of a wallet unless they advertise the address.

Ok, would you mind detailing how Bitcoin is more efficient/suited at laundering money than cash?
Otherwise I have the impression that I'll have to ask you to re-define everything.
(For example the traceability issue. Bitcoin is the pinnacle of traceability.)

But cash loses value in time. Bitcoin is the opposite.

Very easy, there is no paper trail and there are no regulations in any economic transaction.
So traditional methods for laundering fiat can be applied even more effectively in the world of bitcoins.
Besides that, you can use mixers and tor to make yourself absolutely anonymous.

It is not only easier, but way cheaper to launder money in bitcoins.

Bitcoins don't attach themselves to credit cards (which are linked to you), or social security numbers. And with Bitcoins you don't have to do something risky process if you want to lauder it. You just mix the coins.

Ex:
With real money, you rob a bank and you have to buy crack and sell it to get new bills.
With bitcoins, you can sell crack on the Silk Road and rob someone through Nigerian prince type email scams, and no one would ever find you.

I think you're are conflating cash with payment systems.

Just create few anonymous accounts on Gox (and other exhanges) and few e-wallets. Then move coins exchange, e-wallet other exchange other e-wallet and then paper wallet. (you can create 100 paper wallets)

Maybe you don't really understand what laundering is.
If you have a few bucks in cash (as in paper currency) no laundering is needed.

If you have few thousand dollars in dirty money it is absolutely unnecessary, but if you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash you can't simply use it because the IRS will eventually get you and you will have no excuses to justify a luxurious lifestyle even if you have been using cash.
Being millionaire off the grid is a primary cause of suspicion of illegal activities, in fact it is a noob mistake.

What laundering does is to legitimize dirty money INTO the financial system as a legitimate income.

Laundering has nothing to do with anonymity, the very purpose is to give your real identity with a accountable and legitimate justification of the extra income.
Also laundering has nothing to do with evading/avoiding taxes, in fact, typically laundering also involves paying taxes to not flag yourself... if you want to add tax avoidance in the combo, well that is an extra.

Now going back to the question: does the bitcoins help in laundering? absolutely yes.

How?
If I have a million bucks worth of bitcoin, how can I move it into the financial
system as legitimate income, more easily than with cash?  ???

I see Bitcoin as a tool to facilitate moving money around (across borders, for example).

But I don't see how it makes it easier to launder money.
And that's without the fact that presently the market is way too small for that.

By mixing it, then buying things on the Silk Road and Bitcoin stores. The whole point is to NOT use cash.
An if you have a Bitcoin store of your own you could launder it by buying products from yourself at an inflated price. And no one would ever know that the coins cam from you.

And you say that you got it from your store, say you bought it and show some transactions.
If you have your own bitcoin company and millions of dollars in coins, you can afford to put those coins in a few different countries, and have people buy stuff from you slowly with your own coins so you get all your money back. All of it would look completely legal...

This is how laundering works. But as I have been trying to point out, it's just better with bitcoins.

And the tax guys don't come unless you accept/use fiat or deposit/withdraw $10,000 into/from a bank account.

You know where to get a Porshe for Bitcoins?

And you are being stupid. As I said, you create a fake business to launder the coins through. So all the earnings are accounted for, you could even at that point turn it into cash as long as you paid taxes.

You are talking about the CTRs in bank deposits to prevent smurfing.
You clearly ignore about the criteria for SARs, and let alone IRS audits.


The news: http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-family-we-sold-this-porsche-last-night-for-300-bitcoins-2013-4

The actual thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143722.0

Stop calling names when you are the one lacking knowledge here, you are just making a fool of yourself.

I didn't call anyone names, I just said you were being stupid by ignoring facts. You are making a fool of yourself by continuing this discussion after you have been proven wrong over and over by multiple people.

Proven? You are using words very lightly, kid.

No I'm not. I explained how laundering works, then explained how bitcoins make it better. And you continue to be stupid. That's not an insult and if you are taking it as one, maybe you should stop doing it.

No you didn't.

"<Money laundering explanation>... and then it's easier with bitcoin."

You're missing the WHY. Why is it easier with Bitcoin?

You started by saying Bitcoin can't be traced, contrary to cash (which isn't true):


And then you explain your laundering scheme:

I know how laundering works. What I'm not getting is how it would be easier with bitcoins.
"if you have your own bitcoin company and millions of dollars in coins..."
If I had my own dollars company and millions of dollars in cash, I don't see how it would be different.

Bullshit. I gave you plenty of reasons.

1. Can't be traced to a person
2. Easily mixed/re laundered
3. No taxes, so as long as you just deal in Bitcoin you are doing everything by the book
4. Accepted in nations all over the world

I'm sure I can find more if I look back, that's just off the top of my head.

I will leave it there. If I give details it will become an advocacy of crime.
I have no intentions in making a tutorial.

I always think that money laundering is an excuse that banks made to maintain their control of every one's money

Central banks are printing money out of nothing every day, this must be the most illicit means to get money in the world but no one cares...

The only illicit means to get a large sum of money that I can think of is robbing a bank. Again, comparing with what FED is doing, those are trivial

It is very difficult to precisely define money laundering, almost all transactions are neutral. The banks lost their money in a robbery due to their own security weakness and they should buy insurance to cover it. They should not utilize their advantage of transaction processing to get back their lost money

And for terrorism, this is even more unconvincing, the boston terrorist had not made any money laundering but still detonated the bomb

Bribery could also be a source, but it's even more difficult to define what is a bribery and what is a marketing effort, many businesses contain certain level of bribery, the discounted price itself is a bribery already

For bitcoin, due to the very high volatility of the exchange price, it will not be suitable for use as a money laundering tool, casino is a much better practice worldwide, typically used by corrupted high officials in banks/governments

I believe, money laundering is more or less a political tool targeting those high officials in the banks, limiting their ability to transfer billions of dollars between each other as will, while almost meaningless for normal people

For the record (I've nullified the contest); e^log(sqrt(sqrt(e^pi)^sqrt(pi^e)^sqrt(e)^sqrt(pi)))/3 -- my guess is I could have given a thousand digits and it would not have been possible to predict the expression.  In my opinion, predicting if/when the exchange rate will hit $1,000,000 is much harder.