Bitcoin Forum

Several years ago the first Bitcoin dice sites hit the market. The most amazing feature
of these sites (does anyone know, which was the first one?) was the ability
to cryptographically verify the fairness of your bets.

I was wondering why no traditional fiat casino operator has copied this brilliant idea?
With the programming resources and the budgets that are available to the big casino brands this can´t be that
hard to execute. After all several of the Bitcoin dice sites have been programmed by 1-2 man
operations.

Is the reason that games of this type are not included in their gaming licenses?
Are the fiat casino operators just unaware of this breakthrough in online gambling?
What other possible explanations are conceivable?

They don't have the need to do so yet.

Most of the games are with physical items, so you can't prove the fairness with hashes, plus they want to frame the games so they don't want to play fair.
Remember that jumping roulette ball? Yeah, they have a magnet for that.

I assume the OP means online fiat casinos. I don't use any fiat casinos so I'm not sure what systems they do use. But I'd guess they don't need to do provably fair as they already have a trusted brand and reputation. If customers demanded and didn't bet then they would soon introduce it.

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?

I can't say if traditional casino's are actually cheating, in my country it's heavily regulated, but it's possible.

while working with a fiat casino, they do not need to or want to because it would cut into their profits

Regulations for people to gamble but there are no regulations for casino owners not to cheat because these games very seldom someone else will go and verify whether they are cheating or not. Bitcoin dice and other games are online so people demands for fairness otherwise no one will trust the site and deposit money so they are forced to prove games are fair. But in physical casino, no one will ask for fairness to prove.

Because fiat doesnt use a blockchain that's why. Provably fair sites like Yolodice use cryptocurrency and as such run on the blockchain. The blockchain is used to determine fairness and randomness. Noone knows what the next blocks hash is so each hash is used for a bet as a sees so noone can tell the outcome untill afterwards. It's like if you take a pack of cards and shuffle them them pick odd or even . The variables on the blockchain are way way more then a pack of cards that's only an example.

I do not think so it is not about the need bro. I hope bitcoin is the anonymous medium to hide yourself and play any gambling games with the bitcoin but with the fiat in the sense you need to pay with the regulated online payment mode to get the send the bitcoin to gambling wallet. Therefore, we can be better to safe status with the bitcoin.

That's not true. Pnline fiat casinos could be just as provably fair as the Bitcoin ones. The fact that they aren't can only mean that there's no demand for it from the people who play at the fiat casinos, because it would be easy to offer.

I guess in general Bitcoin gamblers tend to be more technically savvy than the average fiat gambler, and isn't put off by the concept of hashes. You might find that more fiat gamblers would be scared off if you started shoving "formulas" in their face while they were trying to play.

If we do talk about regulated casinos then most of the time they would really strictly impose fair system since they wont really like to get busted if someone notice it and thats the end of their business.We wont really know if they do have those kind of plans on rigging up but knowing that this thing is really possible.Im not too familiar on this one because i dont really play on this field since bitcoin gambling came out.

There are almost no fiat casinos with only proprietary software, nearly every single one licenses out lots of different games from providers like NetEnt, Quickspin etc.

I've talked to owners of big fiat casinos and they aren't interested in 'provably fair' games because they think putting a 'provably fair' game next to a normal game would imply that the normal games aren't fair & ultimately the end consumer doesn't care about it yet.

Also, getting the 'RNG' approved for a Maltese/UK license when you offer 'provably fair' games is challenging because technically provably fair utilise deterministic number generation and doesn't exactly check all the needed boxes. That being said, we previously sent a whitepaper to the Maltese Gaming Authority and they seemed willing to work with it.

I think that they just don't have the need to do it right now. They aren't really shot on customers, and are generating plenty of cash. If the provably fair feature is just not considered important by their users why would they implement it? Also they do have a lot of things that probably most btc casinos don't have. They are completely regulated, and if something goes wrong the user knows that they can take them to a court, and that gives them some trust I guess. In the bitcoin world there is the fear that some sites can just close and run with your money, and I guess that doesn't happen in the major fiat casinos, and this is probably more important to users than provably fair.

I assumed that someone would ask what incentives a fiat online casino could have to actually introduce
a provably fair game. In my opinion the answer is quite straightforward.

The only fiat casino market is heavily saturated with lots of competition. If you manage to be the first fiat
casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

It is not necessary, the reason bitcoin casinos need that is to give a guarantee to their clients they are not cheating them, but a fiat casino most of the time does not have an in house games, everything is done by other companies that needs to approve certain specifications so people just trust in the authorities to enforce the fairness of games.

Dooglus, were you the first to offer provably fair dice (or do you know who pioneered it?)?



Interesting remarks. Couldn´t a fiat casino operator use the bolded part of your reply to his advantage? Introduce some provably fair games and start a heavy marketing campaign promoting it - implicitly this would create the impression that brand X is the only option for fair gambling while all other operators seem to have something to hide. Therefore if one brand really starts using it, the other brands would be forced to follow (or lose marketshare). All it would take is one company to innovate in order to change the online gaming market forever.

There's some great responses here, but there's also some potential operational challenges with provably fair.

Pretty much every real-time provably fair system works on the concept of predetermination. You prove you've predetermined something (e.g. send a hash of the server seed) and then derive games from that. But from an operator point of view, this now means you're holding a pretty important secret. Anyone who has the ability to see it will be able to predict future games, and thus cheat the casino. While if you just sourced random number, an employee (or what ever) having read access to anything isn't as huge of a deal.


I do think that provably fair systems will however keep gaining popularity. Once you've enjoyed the peace of mind of being able to actually verify your games, there's no way you'll go back =)

I'm not totally sure, but I think it might have been bitzino as the first provably fair casino? And then satoshi dice (?) had provably fair (on chain) dice. I do believe that dooglus was one who did create the now industry standard of hmac(serverSeed, clientSeed+nonce) though

IMO provably fair system depends on software providers. If software provider doesn't implement provably fair in games, casino can't do it on their own hand.
Other solution will be to create their own games and implement provably fair system, but why they are not doing this? Because their business is good enough without it perhaps?

I think I'm with eternalgloom on this one, and I will talk about my experience, and some of my friends. When I started gambling I did it only with fiat (partypoker, betfair, titanpoker) and similar big sites or networks, that offer both poker and casino. I only got to know provably fair when I switched to BTC. When I played on those big fiat casinos, I did not even know what provably fair was, and the same thing with my friends. So I don't really think they need to offer that, because their regular users just don't care about that. If one offered, maybe all others would start doing it, so again if there is really no demand for it, why do it?

The answer to your question is contained directly in the post of me that you quoted!  :)

I´ll say it again:
If you manage to be the first fiat casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

That is a great thing for the brand that introduces an innovation like this due to the following reasons:
-implicitly the offers of your competitors look shady or at least not as trustworthy, because they are not provably fair (a user might think: "They aren´t provably fair, so probably they have something to hide, the games are rigged and so on")
-you could gain a higher marketshare in a highly profitable, but saturated market with lots of competitors
-you could stand out from the offer, because as Stunna pointed out many operators don´t really differ, because they get their games from the same
few game suppliers like NetEnt or Quickspin
-higher turnover, because some gamblers might increase their turnover, if they don´t have to worry about being cheated (I admit that they still have to worry a bit, because what good is a provably fair game, if you never bother to actually verify your bets)

Absolutely, You have rightly said. As far as they don’t anything like that, they will not adopt that strategy. They can use this in the near future but only if they start such sort of games which do need such sort of stuff. Till the time they are dealing only with physical games, there is hardly any need of it.

As someone already pointed out I was talking about online fiat casinos.
Therefore it has nothing to with physical items like a real roulette table or anything like that.

Maybe I´m 1-2 years too early with this thread. I really anticipate this to take off in the near future, because all
major brands will be forced to offer provably fair gaming when the first brand pioneers the introduction.

Fiat casinos can adapt probably fair gambling too, it is just simple advertising. In all online casinos you play with casino software, so fair gambling depend from software. Sometimes fiat casinos loose, if they give no deposit bonuses to all players and they play and win. But casino owners also want to make profit, so probably fair gambling means probably owner will win !!!  ;D

Most of the fiat based online casino offer third party games so implementing provably fair system in those game depends on gaming software provider but these days most of these software provider have provably fair games expect live games where most of the casino make huge profit because all of those games is rigged.

I think the answer is simple: if there is demand for provably fair for fiat casinos and the players vote with their money
i.e. playing at the provably fair,trusted online casinos such as Primedice,Bitsler,Crypto-games etc.
more and more fiat casinos would try and provide verifiers and open provably fair (not the md5 jokes some of them have)
it is not that hard,just takes some time and money to adapt PF to the existing games

According to casino owners of live casinos their games are fair, but who certifies them? Themselves, so there is not really a guarantee that those game are fair at all, so in my opinion bitcoin casinos are doing a great job by making sure that users can verify their results and see there is no cheating involved.

Because the fiat casinos are all cheating! That is why! It is so hard to prove they are cheating because the code is on the machine itself and it cannot ever be checked on the spot! And people don't care, people just play and don't even bother think "hey, is this slot machine legit as it can be?" Nobody asks that question and nobody every dared try and check for it.

Aren't most online fiat casinos required to be regulated, licensed, certified and have their software/rng's audited anyway? If so, why would they go through the extra/redundant effort and cost of becoming provably fair?

Some of these gaming licences are not worth the paper they are not printed on  ;D

There have been many scam accusations against fiat online casinos in the past, where the casino
had a valid gaming license. However, very often the regulatory body didn´t do anything to help the players.
What use is a gaming license if it doesn´t help the player to get their money in the case of an
angle, a scam or an exit scam by the casino operator?

You really have to differentiate between legit gaming licenses (e.g. Malta or UK) and less legit gaming
licences (e.g. a gaming license from some native american tribe).

Here's my take. I don't quite buy that there isn't any demand for fiat casinos to prove their fairness. If there weren't then these casinos wouldn't be regulated - part of effective regulation is to require them to prove fairness in their games. As someone already mentioned, at the moment, these certifications are targeted at RNG systems built into proprietary software you'll find on all these fiat casinos. This is, at the moment, not the same way provably fair systems in crypto dice work. With fiat casinos, you rely on 3rd parties... testing labs and certification companies who prove fairness. With crypto gambling provably fair, you do it yourself.

I'm pretty sure the provably fair feature wasn't demanded from Bitcoin dice players either. It certainly is now, but only because it's become the benchmark for crypto casinos.

And to answer one of the original questions (Who was first?)... I would like to know too! I wrote a piece on this a while back. My cursory research points to BitZino way back in 2012. Here's their thread about it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87656.0

I do not know about that, bitcoin users are very demanding, we are not happy with fiat then we adopt bitcoin, we do not like fiat casinos then we adopt bitcoin casinos, the average person gets whatever is in front of him, accepts it and likes it even if the product is not very good.

Casino games are now much popular in the online nowadays like bluewhale. If you have enough money please increase the fund other investment option bitcoin to get the decent profit. Atleast in sports betting you have to understand the profit may occur. You need to understand the more information about the site.

The reason is that a lot of real casinos have a super high house edge! That is why even if they do not even employ provably fair they will profit regardless. Even if the players try to investigate the legitimacy of every game, it will come out that it is legit. They don't need to cheat to profit because they profit by a huge amount because of the high house edge!

As I understand the reason why there is no provabily fair online non-bitcoin casinos is because there is no need.

Most of the games are like Sports bet, which are very easy to verify. Or they are PVP Poker games which have no incentive to cheat.

Never understood why dice didn't really catch on with the non-bitcoin crowd.

The main reason is probably that their current customers are not aware or do not care enough for them to implement an entire new system when they already make money doing what has always worked.

Soon though, make no mistake, they'll all be switching over to crypto and use provably fair engines to ensure legitimacy. That's the beauty of this crypto revolution that's spreading at a fast rate, it's opening up eyes. Soon enough one of the big online casinos will start accepting Bitcoin or other crypto. There was one a couple of years ago that accepted Bitcoin, verajohn.com I believe. Not sure if they still do but yeah, I'm certain they are aware and just awaiting or making plans for the switch over to the better systems.

Give it time, that's all :).

my opinion is for the fiat online casinos which already running very successful business, there is no advance advantage for them to provide provably fair games due to they already have a good system(regulation) and trusted relationship with players, maybe it will take more advantage for the newcomer of the gambling market.

 

Because only the outline World cares about that. You have to understand that you guys are living in a small world comprised very small components. Only people inside this world care about these things. I'm side there or is it a tire separate system that keeps track of everything else.

True while bitcoin adoption is growing we have the idea that the growth is bigger than it is because we are in this forum and not only we know about bitcoin but about many altcoins, but outside of this forum I have yet to meet a person that brings the topic of bitcoin to me, since I'm the one that always brings the topic and not a single person knows about bitcoin.

Hmm. How did this discuss end up with bitcoin discussion? Isn't this topic supposed to be discussing about why fiat casinos have not implemented provably fair? We're not discussing why fiat casinos are yet adopting bitcoins into their system. That could be another interesting topic, but you guys are straying away from the discussion.

While you are correct that the discussion at hand is about why fiat casinos have not adopted probably fair gambling, a conversation can move in any direction, just look at us, now we are talking about the fact that we are not talking about the topic, that is just the way a natural and organic conversation moves forward.

i'm still waiting for a vegas casino  to put in 100 just-dice video machines to replace all the old nickel slots.


i would just get free drinks all day and play 10 sats a bet till real drunk.



let's make this happen dooglus.

I think it is because from the first time the fiat casino was introduce there were no such things as provably fair and it keep on continue like this, instead of provably fair they were making live gambling, and because most of people not complaining, so no system update were made

They do (not the means bitcoin casinos do).  But I promise you if you go to any casino and they are sketchy, you can verify that they are willing to pay out for a big win or anything along those lines.  This probably only applies in the US(at least all I can verify) but casinos must be kept up to date with whatever rules apply to them at that time

Provably fair gambling is one of the biggest things to happen to online gaming ever I'd say. It's the only way to give players true peace of mind & create an experience where people can't feel harshly done by. The reason a lot of big punters don't use online casinos is because they are obviously skeptical as to whether they're legitimate & aren't rigging the results. Provably fair gaming changes this.

Cryptogambling.org is actually going go attempt to get this change moving, so check it out!

In a real casino, no need to please anyone to gamble because they know most of the addicted gamblers will go and gamble and they will be playing on real machines so they are not much worried about fairness. But in online casinos, they need to give a confidence to people that they are not cheating so this fairness concept came in to give a users confidence that site is not doing any cheating.

In fact,most casinos do falsely claim that they adopt provably fair gambling for which every player is not able to verify whether they are provably fair or not.
I doubt such gambling brands also have no legal licence for their service.

Finally, someone who shares my sentiment regarding the significance of provably fair gaming!
Thank you for the link, I was not aware of this website before.

As I already stated in one of my earlier posts, I heavily believe that once one major brand adopts provably fair gaming,
the other brands will be forced to adopt the technology as well.

Whether you seen fiat gambling sites have a game like dice,plinko,etc ? most of fiat gambling site only provide casino games, that's why they not need probably fair. what they need is only license and this same too for casino that accept bitcoin.

Stop this topic.  They do provide fair testing for the casinos.  The only difference is the end user(or gambler) cannot see it.

https://www.gamingstandards.com/

Basically these people go around test cards/dice/tables/camera/  pretty much anything you can even think of so that we don't get robbed. 

I think that as crypto gains more and more terrain in the gambling industry, the regular fiat casinos are going to be pretty much forced to step up their game and offer the same as what crypto casinos are offering. If people can get paid in bitcoin and then gamble in provably fair gambling they are going to do it because it's very convenient to do so. I like to gamble and play crypto games with my sig campaign earnings because I get paid with it and I don't need to do the cumbersome step of fiat to crypto conversion.

What is stopping global adoption is

1) Lack of lightning network
2) Easy to find jobs that pay in BTC

This will lead to more use of the currency including gambling.

You see in gambling it is more chance that you will tend to lose than on winning, so basically the casino is cheating on you right from the start that you've played. So the players tend to cheat or in other terms it is what we called 'cooperation', they will play the game as if that they don't even know each other but what they're doing is that they're letting one person to win by signalling the other members, they had this planned so the chances of winning is very high. So if you can see its obvious that every casino has so many cameras and securities. Even if they knew that their profit is at the top.

Even with real physical casinos, how do you know that they don't cheat you somehow.

Most likely in the USA there is regulation. However if you go to some other country, and play roulette how do you know that there isn't  some magnet that determines the winning number or some magnets in dice.

Which do you guys think is safer ? Fiat or crypto ? I have no idea but I guess I lean towards crypto being safer because if the blockchain. How exactly do fiat casinos prove they legit and fair ? Crypto uses blockchain then what does fiat use ? Anyone know ?

This is not an easy question to answer.

Basically there are variables. Yes for crypto you got provably fair and hashed seeds. However keep in mind there is no guarantee that the money you will you will be able to withdraw later.

With fiat physical casinos there are regulations in play. At least in most first world nations.

Most casinos have an information guide (one that nobody ever looks at) and it describes how every game is fair. There is usually a brochure for slot games and explains how the bets are generated and the house edge and everything.

Slots actually has a very very high house edge, nobody knows about it because nobody reads that brochure.

I think those are definitely key points here. You normally already trust a casino, specially a land casino, but also big online brands as well, because you know they are heavy regulated, and your money should be safe there. On crypto casinos, users are normally so afraid that they could be scammed, that they need to at least demand provably fair games.

Haha I can't wait until this happens. Honestly It would probably save the casinos a lot of trouble moving over to that kind of system. Just imagine the first Physical cashless casino? Security could be an issue but hey, they'll know how to handle it :).

But they already got some cashless slot games right? Some of them only need to swipe their card to play. But I do not know if that is their really credit card or just another card to play with it. Btw why they should open this kind machines? I believe this will cost so much and people only play with 10 satoshi? This is no way to happens

Well I think its a myth that they "Pump oxygen in the gambling floor" to get gamblers to keep gambling.

I do however think that when they offer you free drinks, its probably so it can lossen you up and you will keep making larger and larger bets until you go bust.

Same reason when they offer you a steak dinner or free hotel room. To get you to gamble much.

Its all a game to them.