Why has no fiat casino adopted provably fair gambling?

[Samarkand]

Several years ago the first Bitcoin dice sites hit the market. The most amazing feature
of these sites (does anyone know, which was the first one?) was the ability
to cryptographically verify the fairness of your bets.

I was wondering why no traditional fiat casino operator has copied this brilliant idea?
With the programming resources and the budgets that are available to the big casino brands this can´t be that
hard to execute. After all several of the Bitcoin dice sites have been programmed by 1-2 man
operations.

Is the reason that games of this type are not included in their gaming licenses?
Are the fiat casino operators just unaware of this breakthrough in online gambling?
What other possible explanations are conceivable?

[iluvbitcoins]

They don't have the need to do so yet.

Most of the games are with physical items, so you can't prove the fairness with hashes, plus they want to frame the games so they don't want to play fair.
Remember that jumping roulette ball? Yeah, they have a magnet for that.

[TheQuin]

They don't have the need to do so yet.

Most of the games are with physical items, so you can't prove the fairness with hashes, plus they want to frame the games so they don't want to play fair.
Remember that jumping roulette ball? Yeah, they have a magnet for that.

I assume the OP means online fiat casinos. I don't use any fiat casinos so I'm not sure what systems they do use. But I'd guess they don't need to do provably fair as they already have a trusted brand and reputation. If customers demanded and didn't bet then they would soon introduce it.

[eternalgloom]

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?

I can't say if traditional casino's are actually cheating, in my country it's heavily regulated, but it's possible.

[AmoreJaz]

while working with a fiat casino, they do not need to or want to because it would cut into their profits

[klf]

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?

I can't say if traditional casino's are actually cheating, in my country it's heavily regulated, but it's possible.

Regulations for people to gamble but there are no regulations for casino owners not to cheat because these games very seldom someone else will go and verify whether they are cheating or not. Bitcoin dice and other games are online so people demands for fairness otherwise no one will trust the site and deposit money so they are forced to prove games are fair. But in physical casino, no one will ask for fairness to prove.

[Mike Mayor]

Because fiat doesnt use a blockchain that's why. Provably fair sites like Yolodice use cryptocurrency and as such run on the blockchain. The blockchain is used to determine fairness and randomness. Noone knows what the next blocks hash is so each hash is used for a bet as a sees so noone can tell the outcome untill afterwards. It's like if you take a pack of cards and shuffle them them pick odd or even . The variables on the blockchain are way way more then a pack of cards that's only an example.

[xIIImaL]

They don't have the need to do so yet.

Most of the games are with physical items, so you can't prove the fairness with hashes, plus they want to frame the games so they don't want to play fair.
Remember that jumping roulette ball? Yeah, they have a magnet for that.

I do not think so it is not about the need bro. I hope bitcoin is the anonymous medium to hide yourself and play any gambling games with the bitcoin but with the fiat in the sense you need to pay with the regulated online payment mode to get the send the bitcoin to gambling wallet. Therefore, we can be better to safe status with the bitcoin.

[dooglus]

Provably fair sites like Yolodice use cryptocurrency and as such run on the blockchain. The blockchain is used to determine fairness and randomness.

That's not true. Pnline fiat casinos could be just as provably fair as the Bitcoin ones. The fact that they aren't can only mean that there's no demand for it from the people who play at the fiat casinos, because it would be easy to offer.

I guess in general Bitcoin gamblers tend to be more technically savvy than the average fiat gambler, and isn't put off by the concept of hashes. You might find that more fiat gamblers would be scared off if you started shoving "formulas" in their face while they were trying to play.

[milewilda]

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?

I can't say if traditional casino's are actually cheating, in my country it's heavily regulated, but it's possible.

If we do talk about regulated casinos then most of the time they would really strictly impose fair system since they wont really like to get busted if someone notice it and thats the end of their business.We wont really know if they do have those kind of plans on rigging up but knowing that this thing is really possible.Im not too familiar on this one because i dont really play on this field since bitcoin gambling came out.

[Stunna]

There are almost no fiat casinos with only proprietary software, nearly every single one licenses out lots of different games from providers like NetEnt, Quickspin etc.

I've talked to owners of big fiat casinos and they aren't interested in 'provably fair' games because they think putting a 'provably fair' game next to a normal game would imply that the normal games aren't fair & ultimately the end consumer doesn't care about it yet.

Also, getting the 'RNG' approved for a Maltese/UK license when you offer 'provably fair' games is challenging because technically provably fair utilise deterministic number generation and doesn't exactly check all the needed boxes. That being said, we previously sent a whitepaper to the Maltese Gaming Authority and they seemed willing to work with it.

[Bolt Brownie]

I think that they just don't have the need to do it right now. They aren't really shot on customers, and are generating plenty of cash. If the provably fair feature is just not considered important by their users why would they implement it? Also they do have a lot of things that probably most btc casinos don't have. They are completely regulated, and if something goes wrong the user knows that they can take them to a court, and that gives them some trust I guess. In the bitcoin world there is the fear that some sites can just close and run with your money, and I guess that doesn't happen in the major fiat casinos, and this is probably more important to users than provably fair.

[Samarkand]

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?
...

I assumed that someone would ask what incentives a fiat online casino could have to actually introduce
a provably fair game. In my opinion the answer is quite straightforward.

The only fiat casino market is heavily saturated with lots of competition. If you manage to be the first fiat
casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

[South Park]

Several years ago the first Bitcoin dice sites hit the market. The most amazing feature
of these sites (does anyone know, which was the first one?) was the ability
to cryptographically verify the fairness of your bets.

I was wondering why no traditional fiat casino operator has copied this brilliant idea?
With the programming resources and the budgets that are available to the big casino brands this can´t be that
hard to execute. After all several of the Bitcoin dice sites have been programmed by 1-2 man
operations.

Is the reason that games of this type are not included in their gaming licenses?
Are the fiat casino operators just unaware of this breakthrough in online gambling?
What other possible explanations are conceivable?

It is not necessary, the reason bitcoin casinos need that is to give a guarantee to their clients they are not cheating them, but a fiat casino most of the time does not have an in house games, everything is done by other companies that needs to approve certain specifications so people just trust in the authorities to enforce the fairness of games.

[Samarkand]

...
That's not true. Pnline fiat casinos could be just as provably fair as the Bitcoin ones. The fact that they aren't can only mean that there's no demand for it from the people who play at the fiat casinos, because it would be easy to offer.

I guess in general Bitcoin gamblers tend to be more technically savvy than the average fiat gambler, and isn't put off by the concept of hashes. You might find that more fiat gamblers would be scared off if you started shoving "formulas" in their face while they were trying to play.

Dooglus, were you the first to offer provably fair dice (or do you know who pioneered it?)?

There are almost no fiat casinos with only proprietary software, nearly every single one licenses out lots of different games from providers like NetEnt, Quickspin etc.

I've talked to owners of big fiat casinos and they aren't interested in 'provably fair' games because they think putting a 'provably fair' game next to a normal game would imply that the normal games aren't fair & ultimately the end consumer doesn't care about it yet.

Also, getting the 'RNG' approved for a Maltese/UK license when you offer 'provably fair' games is challenging because technically provably fair utilise deterministic number generation and doesn't exactly check all the needed boxes. That being said, we previously sent a whitepaper to the Maltese Gaming Authority and they seemed willing to work with it.

Interesting remarks. Couldn´t a fiat casino operator use the bolded part of your reply to his advantage? Introduce some provably fair games and start a heavy marketing campaign promoting it - implicitly this would create the impression that brand X is the only option for fair gambling while all other operators seem to have something to hide. Therefore if one brand really starts using it, the other brands would be forced to follow (or lose marketshare). All it would take is one company to innovate in order to change the online gaming market forever.

[RHavar]

There's some great responses here, but there's also some potential operational challenges with provably fair.

Pretty much every real-time provably fair system works on the concept of predetermination. You prove you've predetermined something (e.g. send a hash of the server seed) and then derive games from that. But from an operator point of view, this now means you're holding a pretty important secret. Anyone who has the ability to see it will be able to predict future games, and thus cheat the casino. While if you just sourced random number, an employee (or what ever) having read access to anything isn't as huge of a deal.


I do think that provably fair systems will however keep gaining popularity. Once you've enjoyed the peace of mind of being able to actually verify your games, there's no way you'll go back =)

[RHavar]

Dooglus, were you the first to offer provably fair dice (or do you know who pioneered it?)?

I'm not totally sure, but I think it might have been bitzino as the first provably fair casino? And then satoshi dice (?) had provably fair (on chain) dice. I do believe that dooglus was one who did create the now industry standard of hmac(serverSeed, clientSeed+nonce) though

[marlboroza]

IMO provably fair system depends on software providers. If software provider doesn't implement provably fair in games, casino can't do it on their own hand.
Other solution will be to create their own games and implement provably fair system, but why they are not doing this? Because their business is good enough without it perhaps?

[FrueGreads]

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?
...

I assumed that someone would ask what incentives a fiat online casino could have to actually introduce
a provably fair game. In my opinion the answer is quite straightforward.

The only fiat casino market is heavily saturated with lots of competition. If you manage to be the first fiat
casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

I think I'm with eternalgloom on this one, and I will talk about my experience, and some of my friends. When I started gambling I did it only with fiat (partypoker, betfair, titanpoker) and similar big sites or networks, that offer both poker and casino. I only got to know provably fair when I switched to BTC. When I played on those big fiat casinos, I did not even know what provably fair was, and the same thing with my friends. So I don't really think they need to offer that, because their regular users just don't care about that. If one offered, maybe all others would start doing it, so again if there is really no demand for it, why do it?

[Samarkand]

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?
...

I assumed that someone would ask what incentives a fiat online casino could have to actually introduce
a provably fair game. In my opinion the answer is quite straightforward.

The only fiat casino market is heavily saturated with lots of competition. If you manage to be the first fiat
casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

I think I'm with eternalgloom on this one, and I will talk about my experience, and some of my friends. When I started gambling I did it only with fiat (partypoker, betfair, titanpoker) and similar big sites or networks, that offer both poker and casino. I only got to know provably fair when I switched to BTC. When I played on those big fiat casinos, I did not even know what provably fair was, and the same thing with my friends. So I don't really think they need to offer that, because their regular users just don't care about that. If one offered, maybe all others would start doing it, so again if there is really no demand for it, why do it?

The answer to your question is contained directly in the post of me that you quoted! 

I´ll say it again:
If you manage to be the first fiat casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

That is a great thing for the brand that introduces an innovation like this due to the following reasons:
-implicitly the offers of your competitors look shady or at least not as trustworthy, because they are not provably fair (a user might think: "They aren´t provably fair, so probably they have something to hide, the games are rigged and so on")
-you could gain a higher marketshare in a highly profitable, but saturated market with lots of competitors
-you could stand out from the offer, because as Stunna pointed out many operators don´t really differ, because they get their games from the same
few game suppliers like NetEnt or Quickspin
-higher turnover, because some gamblers might increase their turnover, if they don´t have to worry about being cheated (I admit that they still have to worry a bit, because what good is a provably fair game, if you never bother to actually verify your bets)