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Title: Trading Hours Post by: Saint! on June 05, 2013, 03:04:12 PM Would enforced trading hours be a positive thing for Bitcoin?
Although it would place quite tight controls on the markets but with so much market manipulation going on during low periods would it be better to shut off the market during those times. ie weekends, after hours trading. Obviously this would probably require a central trading platform to make this decision which we don't really have, unless it was something that all major exchanges signed up to. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: edd on June 05, 2013, 03:13:41 PM Traders live in all parts of the world. Why would you want to prohibit someone from trading during the hours when they're most active simply because others aren't?
Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: Saint! on June 05, 2013, 03:36:34 PM Obviously there would still be exchanges and local bitcoins hubs that you could trade at.
But taking MtGox as an example you can clearly that manipulators take advantage of the "out of hours" low trading volumes to cause massive swings in market value. Where as if the trading was kept to certain hours when the majority of the market was awake and watching the market it would lessen the affect that the manipulators could have on the price. Which would go a long was to providing a stable bitcoin market, rather than one that goes bananas every weekend. Obviously the manipulation of the market is still speculation but the timings of the suspected manipulation do suggest as much. Edit: Just putting this forward, I must admit I'm not a trading guru or anything. Just seems to make sense that closing the market during these slow trading hours would protect it somewhat. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: BitSmile on June 05, 2013, 06:31:20 PM Shutting down exchanges during certain periods is, in my opinion, greater manipulation than slow period sell-offs/buys. +1I don't get all this concern over "manipulators". If it is that obvious then bet against them and they will lose money... Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: byronbb on June 05, 2013, 07:31:52 PM Shutting down exchanges during certain periods is, in my opinion, greater manipulation than slow period sell-offs/buys. I don't get all this concern over "manipulators". If it is that obvious then bet against them and they will lose money... Humans are conditioned to think there is a greater force pulling at the wires making everything happen. "God" is the original manipulator. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: Peter Lambert on June 05, 2013, 10:24:39 PM Obviously there would still be exchanges and local bitcoins hubs that you could trade at. But taking MtGox as an example you can clearly that manipulators take advantage of the "out of hours" low trading volumes to cause massive swings in market value. Where as if the trading was kept to certain hours when the majority of the market was awake and watching the market it would lessen the affect that the manipulators could have on the price. Which would go a long was to providing a stable bitcoin market, rather than one that goes bananas every weekend. Obviously the manipulation of the market is still speculation but the timings of the suspected manipulation do suggest as much. Edit: Just putting this forward, I must admit I'm not a trading guru or anything. Just seems to make sense that closing the market during these slow trading hours would protect it somewhat. If this is so obvious, then people would put fiat into the exchange during business hours and then wait until after hours to place their bids, thus counteracting any new coins being placed onto the exchange during off-business hours. Anyway, who would do this "enforcing" you speak of? Nobody has that kind of power over the exchanges. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: torba on June 06, 2013, 03:30:36 AM Either exchanges would enforce this (expect some exchanges to offer 24/7 as a feature) or bitcoin software would have to enforce this, in that case have fun making transactions after the curfew.
Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: tiberiandusk on June 06, 2013, 03:59:17 AM I don't get all this concern over "manipulators". If it is that obvious then bet against them and they will lose money... Noobs on the left. Vets on the right. https://i.imgur.com/1cOO851.jpg Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: jeannie on June 06, 2013, 04:05:06 AM Forex is nearly 24/7 except for Sunday, I think it is best to open 24/7 as it helps those who want to buy or sell to get out/in of the market anytime. It gives more security to Bitcoin if investors know that they can buy or sell any time of the day , any day.
Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: Gabi on June 06, 2013, 05:46:27 AM Quote enforced LolTitle: Re: Trading Hours Post by: calian on June 06, 2013, 06:12:37 AM You can literally determine when someone has lost money by the type of threads they start. The 24x7 market action of BTC is one of the things I really love about it (and no I'm not a day trader). It feels so much less artificial than the Wall Street version: "It's 4:00 pm on Friday. Let's close up the exchange for 65 hours and go down to the yacht club."
Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: freedomno1 on June 06, 2013, 06:14:48 AM NO I love full exchanges
Timed exchanges would just promote OTC trading After hours Trading and trading between big investors outside of market hours Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: Frozenlock on June 06, 2013, 06:15:19 AM It feels so much less artificial than the Wall Street version: "It's 4:00 pm on Friday. Let's close up the exchange for 65 hours and go down to the yacht club." This. The world doesn't stop because some people take some days off. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: notme on June 06, 2013, 07:22:05 AM NO I love full exchanges Timed exchanges would just promote OTC trading After hours Trading and trading between big investors outside of market hours Exactly. Just as many big stock moves come when retail traders are out of the market, trying to close exchanges when you can't stop OTC trading will only give manipulators another tool. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: torba on June 06, 2013, 07:33:28 AM I think we should all point and laugh at the floor traders while they "get some sleep after a tough day" while we rise off into the sunset on server racks.
Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: notme on June 06, 2013, 07:34:44 AM I think we should all point and laugh at the floor traders while they "get some sleep after a tough day" while we rise off into the sunset on server racks. Floor traders don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by scripts. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: freedomno1 on June 06, 2013, 08:19:09 AM I think we should all point and laugh at the floor traders while they "get some sleep after a tough day" while we rise off into the sunset on server racks. Floor traders don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by scripts. That's very very true damn algorithms and noise Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: notme on June 06, 2013, 09:20:52 AM I think we should all point and laugh at the floor traders while they "get some sleep after a tough day" while we rise off into the sunset on server racks. Floor traders don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by scripts. That's very very true damn algorithms and noise Market making is a waste of human resources. It is a very well defined process that is easily automated. That said, I'm not okay with programs that are allowed to front run trades by being given access to orders before they are eligible to be executed. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: freedomno1 on June 06, 2013, 09:31:15 AM I think we should all point and laugh at the floor traders while they "get some sleep after a tough day" while we rise off into the sunset on server racks. Floor traders don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by scripts. That's very very true damn algorithms and noise Market making is a waste of human resources. It is a very well defined process that is easily automated. That said, I'm not okay with programs that are allowed to front run trades by being given access to orders before they are eligible to be executed. I'm not really happy with algorithmic trading and it's ability to manipulate limit orders by selling just enough to eat a persons order then pump the price down again http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~mkearns/papers/vwap.pdf Papers kind of long but is pretty much the explanation That said the problems of getting priority in trading by thousands of a second over other's is also an issue and issuing shares and cancelling orders in the same timeframe is another problem Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: notme on June 06, 2013, 09:39:26 AM I think we should all point and laugh at the floor traders while they "get some sleep after a tough day" while we rise off into the sunset on server racks. Floor traders don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by scripts. That's very very true damn algorithms and noise Market making is a waste of human resources. It is a very well defined process that is easily automated. That said, I'm not okay with programs that are allowed to front run trades by being given access to orders before they are eligible to be executed. I'm not really happy with algorithmic trading and it's ability to manipulate limit orders by selling just enough to eat a persons order then pump the price down again http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~mkearns/papers/vwap.pdf Papers kind of long but is pretty much the explanation Quote That said the problems of getting priority in trading by thousands of a second over other's is also an issue and issuing shares and cancelling orders in the same timeframe is another problem This gets at the other main problem: it is illegal for a human to place an order without intending to let if fill. Algorithms are permitted to do this due to a bug in the way the law was written. In general, I don't see a problem with allowing companies to rent out rack space in the exchange's datacenter. This is no different from a trade paying a fee to participate. It is the ability to front run retail orders and the ability to stack the order book (and remove the orders quick enough if retail orders come in that will mess up their manipulation) that are the problems. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: freedomno1 on June 06, 2013, 09:47:23 AM I think we should all point and laugh at the floor traders while they "get some sleep after a tough day" while we rise off into the sunset on server racks. Floor traders don't exist anymore. They have been replaced by scripts. That's very very true damn algorithms and noise Market making is a waste of human resources. It is a very well defined process that is easily automated. That said, I'm not okay with programs that are allowed to front run trades by being given access to orders before they are eligible to be executed. I'm not really happy with algorithmic trading and it's ability to manipulate limit orders by selling just enough to eat a persons order then pump the price down again http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~mkearns/papers/vwap.pdf Papers kind of long but is pretty much the explanation Quote That said the problems of getting priority in trading by thousands of a second over other's is also an issue and issuing shares and cancelling orders in the same timeframe is another problem This gets at the other main problem: it is illegal for a human to place an order without intending to let if fill. Algorithms are permitted to do this due to a bug in the way the law was written. In general, I don't see a problem with allowing companies to rent out rack space in the exchange's datacenter. This is no different from a trade paying a fee to participate. It is the ability to front run retail orders and the ability to stack the order book (and remove the orders quick enough if retail orders come in that will mess up their manipulation) that are the problems. I agree completely On the bright side at least they try to restrict the second problem now of flash orders on the major exchanges But that's in theory who the heck is tracking it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_trading Under an exception to Rule 602 of Regulation NMS flash orders are currently allowed. As of May 2010, the proposals have not been implemented. Even though most programs have been stopped voluntarily, it is still possible, at least with Direct Edge. Marketwatch pretty much said it Get it? Never trade. It is a loser's game http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hft-quants-crush-main-street-investors-2009-10-06?pagenumber=2 Still want to play the day-trading loser's game? Warning: "Today's order books are filled with feints and parries, made and withdrawn in a blink of the electronic eye, 1,000-share bids and offers that are stalking horses for million-share moves." And "when the market moves, to do it again. By posting bids and offers for the same securities simultaneously." Only a fool would bet against the new HFT-Quants or challenge them out there on "The Singularity" battlefield, where "the high-frequency boom is reshaping securities markets everywhere." Don't trade, stick with a Lazy Portfolio of no-load index funds. Pretty much its put your order out there robot eats it and push market down lol. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/world-federation-of-exchanges-reports-on-high-frequency-trading-hft-2013-05-29 Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: notme on June 06, 2013, 09:52:19 AM Exactly. Trading is dead unless you are a programmer. Invest for the long term, or do something else with your money.
Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: freedomno1 on June 06, 2013, 09:55:02 AM Exactly. Trading is dead unless you are a programmer. Invest for the long term, or do something else with your money. Or trade in the bitcoin market the algorithms are still being developed here xd Think we would have a couple with all the programmers around and API's I only saw one lol and it's alone so easy to track it haha But probably not enough liquidity for the big investors at wall street to look at yet besides holding currency Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: Peter Lambert on June 06, 2013, 04:14:58 PM Exactly. Trading is dead unless you are a programmer. Invest for the long term, or do something else with your money. Or trade in the bitcoin market the algorithms are still being developed here xd Think we would have a couple with all the programmers around and API's I only saw one lol and it's alone so easy to track it haha But probably not enough liquidity for the big investors at wall street to look at yet besides holding currency In the bitcoin stock markets the volume is so low and outside factors can have such a huge influence, it is safer to just stick with manual trading. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: freedomno1 on June 06, 2013, 04:31:45 PM Exactly. Trading is dead unless you are a programmer. Invest for the long term, or do something else with your money. Or trade in the bitcoin market the algorithms are still being developed here xd Think we would have a couple with all the programmers around and API's I only saw one lol and it's alone so easy to track it haha But probably not enough liquidity for the big investors at wall street to look at yet besides holding currency In the bitcoin stock markets the volume is so low and outside factors can have such a huge influence, it is safer to just stick with manual trading. Just means were safe from the robot trade overlords for now :) Well until we grow even bigger :D Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: Stephen Gornick on June 06, 2013, 06:34:11 PM No. Also this has been discussed a few times before. Here was my response in one of those threads (slightly different question ... relating to closing over the weekend) Quote An efficient capital market is a market that reflects all available news and information. An efficient market is also quick to absorb new information and adjust stock prices relative to that information. This is known as an informationally efficient market. Generally, efficient markets are expected to reflect all available information. If that is not the case, investors with the information may benefit leading to abnormal returns. - http://www.investopedia.com/exam-guide/cfa-level-1/securities-markets/emh-efficient-market-hypothesis.asp - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis There aren't many (or any ?) methods for a retail investor to do forex trading over the weekend. There was one, OANDA, but they claimed the low volume was too challenging for them where they would be taking on too much risk having to take the other side of the trades: - http://www.forexcrunch.com/oanda-closes-weekend-trading Of course, there is a lot of forex trading over the weekend -- just not by you or I. Central banks, corporate and institutional (government) bankers, multinational corporations and more are all trading 24x7. So the market is efficient for them. The rest of us stuck with a losing forex position thanks to news that occurs over the weekend are stuck with that increasingly deteriorating position until the markets open on Monday (or Tuesday, when Monday is a banking holiday like what happened this 3-day weekend.) That's not the definition of an efficient market. Market-changing information occurs over the weekend as well (with announcements oftentimes timed specifically for release over the weekend.) Bitcoin markets don't have this restriction. That still doesn't mean bitcoin exchanges can be considered "efficient" though. For instance, there was a pattern called the "weekend dip" in which buyers interested in buying had insufficient cash at the ready at the exchanges in order to buy and as a result there was little buying to counter a weekend selloff until new cash arrived at the exchanges when funds sent through the banking system were credited. Lately, however, the weekend dip opportunity seems to have abated. At some point a financial company will start using Bitcoin as the method for moving value in and out of other assets, including offering the ability for that to continue throughout the weekend as the way to differentiate that investment offering from the competition. Title: Re: Trading Hours Post by: Odalv on June 08, 2013, 08:49:31 PM |
