Bitcoin Forum

This thread has been intentionally titled to raise some eyebrows but I shall explain the reasoning behind the statement and hope to convince you that what I say is in fact true. There is enough negative rubbish around here so I thought I would do something to redress the balance.

It was Margaret Thatcher that claimed that there is no such thing as Society and she was talking nonsense. We are all distinct but collectively we are more, much more. We have been able to collaborate and compete with one another through endless generations to elevate humanity beyond a mere collection of self serving individuals. The human brain is widely acknowledged to be the most complex structure in the known universe but it is small fry compared to billions of them all fizzing away on this little planet. 7 billion heads are better than one as they say.

All these brains have lots of individual challenges to overcome but in an overcrowded world it is the collective challenges that are increasingly urgent. Society is required to ensure that we can normalise with our fellow man, identify the biggest challenges and work on them together. It is not a dog eat dog world. Competition is not the rule as many would have you believe, cooperation is a much more powerful force by far. Dogs don't eat each other if they can help it, they evolve pack instincts and respect for the territory of others.

In the same way that dogs have evolved rules, so have we. Not all of us are nice but it is interesting to note that as a society we are bad enough to need rules but good enough to implment them. The diversity of our species ensures that there is plenty of room for conflict and general disagreement and to resolve this we need to apply rules. Religion offered guidance on the best practices to ensure a reasonably trouble free and painless life but things have got a little more comple that that. It seems as a species that we may in fact have gone a bit overboard with the rules, or at least it did when I came across the Korean directives on free trade of cabbages.

Money is what makes the world go round. Like it or not, it is the truth. Most of our trade is tightly controlled, groups of important men make decisions in our best interests. They make rules on how money should de distributed about, which country we should attack in defense of our interests, what level of rights to afford individuals and all of the other stuff that we need government to decide upon. The trouble is, the most valuable assets are the people who make the rules, they can punish their enemies, reward their friends and supress all challenges to their authority. The fact that a relatively small group of people can wield so much power represents a single point of failure. A system is only as strong as its weakest element and the greatest challenge to Society today is to find a way to eliminate weaknesses in our systems of governance and ensure a fairer deal for everyone.

The reason that I think Bitcoin may be bigger than the Bible is because it represents a shift in the way that we organise ourselves. It shows us what we can really do to leverage the power of the internet. Bitcoin has solved old riddles and will be ancestor to a thousand ideas in the future. It beautifully expresses the solution to a problem that has vexed mankind for as long as we can remember and gives us the confidence to ponder just how far we can go. Never before has it felt so possible that we can lift ourselves from servitude and assert our collective power. Bitcoin or one of its offspring will be the rules of exchange, encoded immutably into the fabric of our society, it will be the collective consciousness of the world, branching, merging, collaborating and competing to better itself, for us.

The genie is out of the bottle and I for one am more optimistic about our future than I ever have been.

Seems like we have a disciple of Rousseau on our hands

FRENCHMAN! KILL IT WITH FIRE!

Well said OP, I'd have to agree with you a lot there.

Keep in mind the Bible was always meant to keep hands in the power of the elite class, at the time being the priests.

Now their method of control is much more subtle, its the media, the wide reaching power it has, that controls us. Therefore the only chance for bitcoin to succeed is for it to become part of the media, but outside of its control. This can happen because not only is TV, movies media, but people are as well. We are the sum of our media programming or lack thereof, so the more people who believe in the bitcoin concept and share that with their neighbors, the better chance we have.

I love bitcoins, and the popularity will continue to go through the roof. If you haven't signed up to buy and sell bitcoins on exchange do it while the prices are still low and stable! Click either of the referral links below to get started!

you couldnt pick on the Koran could you.
people always pick on the pacifists, its a no risk ego booster

pacifists?  LOL

 ;) I'm glad to see you are enthusiastic about bitcoins. However, seeing that the Bible has been well known by billions of people through many many generations for the last couple of millennia, and bitcoin has been known by tens of thousands for the past couple years.. I'd say that's not likely.

Great thread title!

Bitcoin is the biggest threat to the pharisees, moneychangers, priests, and kings since Rabbi Jesus the Christ started up his little cult of heretics.

Stuff, in order of importance:

1. Big Bang
2. Bitcoin
3. Sex (tie)
3. Beer (tie)
4. Fire
5. Wheel
6. Internet (tie)
6. Nutella (tie)

I suppose I could understand that coming from someone who enjoys bitcoins more than sex ;D and believes that everything came from nothing.

You better switch 2 and 3 ;)

Harry Potter is bigger than the Bible. Just saying.
And I think the 6th book was longer too.

And it's sold more copies worldwide.

Sell everything, invest in white messenger owls and magic wands.

Great post!

Wow. Bi-polar much?

Last week you were all pissing and moaning how bitcoins were going to zero due to the MTGOX fiasco.

Now its "bigger than the bible"?

Kind a ironic, since the bible tells you bitcoins are good. What took you so long???

Proverbs 25:28
He who has no rule over his own spirit is like a broken down city without a wall. (Anti-FED, anti-bankster)

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth obtained by fraud dwindles, but the one who gathers by labor increases it. (Bitcoin Mining  ;^)  )

Ecclesiastes 11:2
Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth. (Diversify)

Exodus 22:25
If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest. (interest free bitcoin loans).

Matthew 5:42
Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. (Lending means growth)

Proverbs 15:22
Without consultation, plans are frustrated, but with many counselors they succeed. (Open-source effort)

Psalm 35:27
Let them shout for joy and rejoice, who favor my vindication; and let them say continually, “The Lord be magnified, who delights in the prosperity of His servant.” (God wants people to prosper)

1 Cor 16:2
“On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.” (Don't sell all your bitcoins)

Proverbs 22:29
Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; he will not stand before obscure men. (Bitcoin, the work of skilled men, is standing up well against the US dollar.)


What does Harry Potter have to say about Bitcoin or finance? Huh? Just sayin.

A refrigerator is bigger than the Bible too? But I rather have the Bible on my shelf  ;D

So if Bitcoin beats the bible I think the ranking would be something like this.

1. Music
2. Spork
3. L shapped tetris piece
4. Bitcoin
5. Bible
6. Fork
7. Onion rings
8. Movies
9. Spoon
10. Virtual Boy

Right?

No, no.

Sliced bread always takes #1 spot.

Oh I see, you're laboring under the illusion that separateness exists (outside of conceptual metaphor) and that in reality, the universe is not a unified field.   ::)

Good luck with that superstitious misapplication of pagan/Manichean spiritual concepts to real world. 

I for one, wouldn't fly in any airplanes built using "Biblically correct engineering" or live near a nuke plant designed using "Christian quantum physics."   :o

Godless empiricism for me, thanks.

Is this your list?

1. The All Father (tie)
1. The Son (tie)
1. The Holy Spirit (tie)
2. Mary Mother of God (tie)
2. Moses The Prophet (tie)
2. Abraham The Patriarch (tie)
3. The Pope of Rome (tie)
3. The Archbishop of Canterbury (tie)
3. The Grand Mullah Herpaderp of Mecca (tie)
4. The Bitcoin of EnterWebs

That's such a busy *PANTHEON* of Gods and minor Deities, there's hardly room for Bitcoin.  And what about the Vegas wife?   :-\

bitcoin has the potential to put PayPal, Visa, Mastercard, Amex etc out of business.
not likely but very possible to take out PayPal first.

Just because the bible is full of a lot of crap doesn't mean that guy jesus wasn't on to something when he said "treat others how you wanna be treated"

and doesnt mean many of his ideas were wrong, including a lot of stuff that was left out of the bible (reincarnation, for instance)

just because organized religion is clearly a program doesn't mean we arent spiritual beings...i feel i have a soul, and i believe there is a creator of that soul, a being who i am eternally grateful towards. that being is NOT the same as the jehovah of the bible though, as should be clear to anyone whos actually read the thing.

What did people say was the greatest invention since sliced bread before sliced bread was invented? No Google Cheating. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22greatest+invention+since+the+alphabet%22#q=%22greatest+invention+since%22&hl=en&authuser=0&tbm=bks&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&sa=X&ei=tU8JToj3BIXFsQKAy8zXAQ&ved=0CBsQpwUoAw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=553b940824a9eec4&biw=1280&bih=685

The greatest invention since the alphabet was that of movable wooden types, made in 1436 by John Gutenberg, of Mayence. The idea was original with him, though such types had been used for centuries in China; but the manner in which that ...

From: http://books.google.com/books?id=YyLVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA398&dq=%22greatest+invention+since+the+alphabet%22&hl=en&ei=WE8JTrueL6OlsAL5uICsAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22greatest%20invention%20since%20the%20alphabet%22&f=false

BTW, it took several years, between the initial invention and a national marketing campaign, before sliced bread went viral. Bitcoins needs a Wonder moment. Perhaps a call to the internet marketing gurus is in order to cook up a Subservient Chicken.

SAT Question: Wordpress is to movable type as bitcoins are to ?

...and more food for thought: ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliced_bread

I should like to let you know how important sliced bread is to the morale and saneness of a household. My husband and four children are all in a rush during and after breakfast. Without ready-sliced bread I must do the slicing for toast—two pieces for each one—that's ten. For their lunches I must cut by hand at least twenty slices, for two sandwiches apiece. Afterward I make my own toast. Twenty-two slices of bread to be cut in a hurry!

Bitcoin's next major step should be the development of a "simple-for-grandma" app.

...

No, logical tells me that nothing can only create nothing. We now know that the universe is not eternally old. If it exists, it wasn't created by nothingness. My guess is only something that could break the law of conservation of energy could have brought our universe into existance. That eliminates the big bang and brings about serious flaws with your unified field theory.

Though I'm hoping this wouldn't turn into some religious/atheism debate, you do realize that the atheistic worldview is riddled with physiological issues, logical fallacies and inconsistencies. So I wouldn't start such a fight when standing on such weak ground myself.

No it hasn't.

Total Harry Potter book sales:  325 million  (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081030085932AAYUTSq)
Total Bible sales:  5-6 BILLION (http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/arts/literature/21-best-selling-books-of-all-time.htm)

The universe has net zero energy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Just because a room containing a black hole, dark-matter and a sun have "net zero" energy, doesn't mean that room or its contents don't exist. It is still a room with a black hole, dark-matter and a sun (something). My bank account and check ledger may have a "net zero" balance by the end of the month, but this just means my debt canceled my income. Net zero is just a balance (theory). But energy and matter still exist, and so does money, and so does debt.

Dawkin's theories are very entertaining. You know he now claims that evil does not exist, since atheists cannot account for objective morality (without a moral law giver).

I have an idea how you can know morality! Consider raping a child. If it makes you feel sick to your stomach, congrats you have morality. If it does not, then youre one of a very small percent of people who cannot feel empathy for others. I fear for you, because in a true free market there will be very little incentive to do business with you. Unlike the current system, where priests run rampant and are given positions of power in the community.

Seriously, its really very simple. We know by instinct if something is wrong, and to what degree. Dawkins probably doesn't understand this because he is quite possibly a deviant who enjoys raping children, so can't fathom what decent morals are.

I agree that morality is known and we have common feelings about such things, as you mentioned, with rape. What I said is that atheists cannot account for objective morality. Objective morals are those that are based outside of yourself.  An atheistic worldview can only offer a subjective moral standard based on feelings, situation, experiences, culture, etc. Subjective morals change and can become self-contradictory.

Example: If Hitler had won the war, and he brainwashed the whole world to agree that gassing the Jews was morally good, wouldn't gassing Jews still be morally evil? The answer is obvious. Yes, gassing Jews would still be morally evil, even if the whole world agreed it wasn't. This contradicts and refutes moral subjectivism.
In atheism, morality is up for grabs. If society changes by, say, a nuclear meltdown... and the norm becomes robbery, is it then right if you are robbed of your food for you and your family? Even though the majority of society may rob for food, and may agree that the new right thing to do is "survival of the fittest to repopulate the earth with a strong people"... it is still wrong. It is wrong due to a moral standard outside of yourself.

Think about it. With atheism, there is no moral should and shouldn't. Why? Because when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective morals truth is established. It is always wrong to rob a starving family of their food, even if your own family is starving. Even if society, your feelings, situation and experience say otherwise.


Guess I'm not following you here.

Neither can Christians. there are many laws in the Bible that we know are morally wrong. I.e. laws on how to treat slaves, how women should behave, againt homosexuality, etc. The are relative to the culture in which they were written and nobody, including most Christians, follows them now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA

OP. I see what you see. And I am truly hopeful for the very first time.

Agree. When I first read about bitcoin I was like, "holy crap, this is a great idea." Been hooked ever since.

Slavery:
First let's keep in mind that slavery in the Bible was not always based on race like we have seen in the past couple of centuries. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts; doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves to have all their needs provided for by their masters. However, there has been, and always will be people kidnapped into slavery and forced into it based on race.

God allows many things to happen such as famine, murder, slavery, etc. While many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves.  So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists.  God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.

So if man is going to permit slavery, then how are these rules immoral as you say?

The Bible acknowledged the slave's status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:23; Lev. 25:46).
The Bible restricted the master's power over the slave. Ex. 21:20).
The slave was a member of the master's household (Lev. 22:11).
The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; Deut. 5:14).
The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13; Exodus 12:44; Lev. 22:11).
The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17).
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14). carm.org

How Women Should Behave:
Can you give me an example here relating to immorality?

Homosexuality:
Again, homosexuality is still considered immoral by most of the world.
How is this considered an example of immorality found within the Bible?

Again, my whole point was that if morals are not subjective, then atheists cannot explain this. What could possibly be imposing a moral standard on humans? I think I gave an example of how moral subjectivism fails as a theory.

How did we even get on this subject. I thought we were supposed to be talking about bitcoins.

How do you know something is imposing that moral standard though? How can you prove its not simply the result of our superior brains being able to rationalize? That hey, yeah, torturing animals and killing them is bad. Raping and murdering is not something you do.

I am able to come to these conclusions, completely without the help of the "God" of the bible. Its called common sense. The very fact that you call yourself a human should mean you are able to do these very basic human acts.

Oh and there's a couple problems with your whole theory on Hitler. He didn't gas any jews, or if he did, it was a whole hell of a lot less than we are made to believe by the media/history books. Oh and the Germans didn't even start World War 2, if you believe that then we really have nothing to discuss, our point of views are just too different. Oh and by priests running around I was mainly referring to Catholic (as I was raised in that religion) but other Christians I assume are similiar (of course not the denominations that allow priests to marry). These are men who deny their very manhood, their very essence, deny themselves a woman, while at the same time surrounding themselves with a great deal of young, prepubescent boys who, if you're raping them in the dark, are pretty similar to a woman, lets be honest.

But yeah, obviously this isn't posted for your benefit because you are far too programmed by the religious programming and as such will defend it to literally your death. But hopefully someone will read these words and think things over and maybe even make some small changes in their life. BECOME A VEGETARIAN, PEOPLE, THAT IS LIKE THE SIMPLEST THING YOU CAN DO. Even if you just eat one less tortured animal a week, just cutting SOME meat out of your diet will be massive good karma, along with improving your health and well-being.

Hehehe, someone who doesn't believe in the holocaust... I knew people like you existed, but haven't had the pleasure of interacting with one yet.

I've spoken with survivors of the holocaust.  Maybe you haven't.  But the holocaust DID happen.  And it WAS as atrocious and astonishing horrific as all of the textbooks and "media" make it out to be.  And it DID involve the killing of millions of Jews.  There is proof of it everywhere.

I'm invoking Godwins Law.

Just shut this silly thread down, eh?

Proof of it everywhere. And yet you offer none.

I never once said it didn't happen, I never said it wasn't horrific. But the same thing happened in America with the Japanese, and millions were NOT killed, think about it with your critical thinking for like 2 seconds, come on. I know you probably haven't used the muscle since you were a child.

Let's say that far away, on an alien planet, beings enjoy killing babies for fun and entertainment. Now, is this considered evil everywhere in the universe, or just in your human mind? Objective morality means that it is evil everywhere, no matter where you are located or what species you are.
Killing babies for fun and entertainment is never right, even if humans (and their minds) don't exist.
Subjective morality says it's only wrong for you.

So answer then. Is killing babies for fun and entertainment only wrong for you, or is it wrong period.
As an atheist, you must say evil does not exist (as Richard Dawkins does).
How can you even trust that the random particles you are made up of allow you to give a truly logical answer?
Remember, the atheistic worldview makes you no more than a flesh machine that is merely reacting to the chemical reactions in your brain. There is no right and wrong, just random particles in a meaningless random universe. Logic, rationality and morals are only bound internally in your own human brain and therefore are a figment of your imagination.

I propose that logic and morality is objective, so they do not change whether you, or an entire community of people decide something is not evil (like the Nazi's).
Objective moral values exist, and they are imposed onto your conscience by God. I'd love to hear your theory on whether morals and logic is either subjective or objective and how it could be objective without a law giver.
Actually, I'm not into religion, just logic, reason, science and my belief in God. Religion can be a dangerous man-made system of control. Even Jesus ate with the outcast tax collectors and prostitutes, but He had a HUGE problem with the religious leaders and pharisees of that day.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites... you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness." - Jesus Christ
Jesus was not a fan of religion either.

I could believe you, and I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but you for some strange reason think jesus is gonna be coming back someday, when the fact is he was MURDERED by the same group that I suspect is still in power (elite priests)

This could go on a long while, lol.. and I'm just waiting for a bitlord to shutdown this thread. Or perhaps people like to read debates such as these?
But I will say this.. Jesus was either a Liar, a Lunatic or Lord.
He claimed to be God. He either knew He wasn't and lied, thought He was and was a lunatic, or truly is and is Lord.

My experience and knowledge has led me to believe that this is indeed not the case, and the priests who killed him simply said that about him afterwards. My understanding is that he simply was trying to change people's ways, and very charismatic, and therefore developed a following.

For god: he is nothing like anyone believes. Its more like morality inside us. buddhists call it good carma (would be my religion of choice, if i would choose one). But also my morality guides me to accept all different kinds of views. in the end, its almost all about the same (gppd) thing: enlarge morality.
And truly this world is so remarkable, that one should really think someone must have invented this ;) But I believe in randomness (I solo mine also harhar). With that many stars and galaxies out there, it had to happen. We are the lotto jackpot times a million.
So please try to save nature...god/buddha/satan/insert random god/random hero will not save it for us.

Instead system earth will wipe us, it will suffer in the process, but in the end survive.

... but hey im moving of topic...
But please do not get fanatic about religion, like some groups do in EVERY(excemptions prrove the rule) religion.


about the Jews and the non holocaust:

I am a schnitzel and sauerkraut german. It happened..., you know why? Because some leaders killed their own people (khmer in Camodia for example), why not kill a different race? ....
And proof you see everyday in Germany are the so called "stolpersteine". Its a metalplated stone near houses where jews lived and were deported. I think if they were alive, they would have come back for their house.

Dont believe everything in the media, definitely not, but trust me on this one: The holocaust happened.

(and how i am pissed off that even after 2.5 generations everywhere you go in the world it is rubbed under your nose: nazi, jews, blablabla)

And for some morality: some things are hardwired into our brain (again rules make the excemption (hello randomness), dont expect in 7 billion people every wiring in the brain to be okay) and this also makes the bridge to "by some groups hated" evolution.
those sick people will either be put to jail/murdered/will die themselves/etc or it will be sometimes such "wrong wiring" that it prooves to be better/efficient/more survivable than the others.

The change will vanish  or stay.
It might also bring the old normal wiring "out of business" (do  not find the word for "verdrängen" right now)

evolution....

give it time and randomness and it will strengthen the system.

Last sentence sound a lot like bitcoin (yeahh my brain wiring is back to the topic of the forum, hate those philosophical discussions, everyone shall believe what they want, but i have my big picture puzzle and I am always glad to hear about new parts ;)

Rampone (no the soccermom playing for the USA  ;)

just my 2 cBTC

I disagree with the premise that Bitcoins "represents a shift in the way that we organise ourselves". The internet has allowed many new channels in which people can organise themselves, and leveraged new power to internet users. However, there is no "shift"; some Bitcoin users share the ideology of a "money" that is not controlled by the financial elite, whereas some want to make money. Neither of these concepts are new, so the reasons for organising have not changed. Nor has the way people organise themselves changed, i.e. spreading the word, opening up forums were discussions can be held etc. So the only thing that has changed is the mechanism of the "money" and the venue were interested parties enter into dialogue and exchange "money".

As to important men making decisions in our best interests and making rules on how money should be distributed; I cannot remember whether it was Plato or Aristotle who said that laws are enacted once wealth in society is unequally shared, and that the more uneven the share is, the more number of laws are enacted.

Bitcoins can, at best, be a means for executing exchanges of goods and services; the Bible sets rules for society in many spheres of life.

In reference to the universe:

You say, *it had to happen* (meaning the odds were there all along) but literally the next thing you say is, *we hit the jackpot* (meaning we got lucky).

Don't be double-minded. You don't win the lotto and say *i was bound to win it, the odds were there*.

The odds against the universe existing as it does, and earth to evolve into a planet with all the conditions necessary to support life, are well beyond "hitting the jackpot". The odds have been worked out: its like hitting the jackpot - *EVERY* day - 100 days in a row.

The odds against are well beyond the scientific standard for ridiculous (10 to the 50th power). The number is so gigantic, it is bigger than the number of seconds in 5 billion years, the supposed life of the our universe. 5 billion years = 1.5778463 × 10^17 seconds. It doesn't matter how much time and randomness you throw into the mix. It can't happen. PERIOD.

Randomness is the total absence of information. Randomness by definition leads only to chaos.

If probability and randomness did not function in a predictable manner, Bitcoin would fall apart. It depends on the laws of the universe to function.

Bitcoin is bigger than Jesus!

It's okay, you can say that on this forum.

Interesting logic, since if it weren't for Jesus, bitcoin wouldn't exist.  :D

Bitcoin is an illusion.

so is Jesus

Your main flawed assumption is that I claimed that "nothing" existed before the big bang.  A good undergraduate astronomy class (or PBS special) can easily explain the fact that the big bang was the result of a symmetry collapse, where the grand unified force splintered into light, gravity, time, and Bitcoins (the Four Fundamental Forces).

Since time and perhaps causality began as a result of the big bang symmetry collapse, we may not be able to tell much about previous universes.  

But that doesn't mean scientists claim 'sumptin' came from 'nuttin.'  

Arguing about whether 'sumptin' can come from 'nuttin' is a perennial favorite discussion popular with the hick beer-can philosophers and slack-jawed yokels I grew up with, but not the scientists in my current peer group.  

They think that the best most winning catch-all put down of science, empiricism, and modern cosmology is to herp, derp, and declare with all the certainty in the world that 'SUMPTIN CAIN'T COME FROM NUTTIN!!!1!"

It's cute.  Too bad they'll never appreciate the elegance and beauty of what the COBE background radiation and Hubbell's law are showing, to those of us with eyes open enough to see.


Oh well, you can pick your nose but not your family....

Agreed. The universe exists. I didn't assert otherwise. There can't be anything that created the universe. If something exists, it's part of the universe by definition. If it's not part of the universe, existence is not what it has.


Disagree. The notion of a lawgiver does not produce an objective morality. It produces a subjective morality. The subject is a supernatural one. But still subjective. If the lawgiver says knife your kid to prove your loyalty, or slaughter the other tribe, that's moral. Why? Because he says it is.

Knowledge of virtue and vice is a species of knowlege. The only means humans have of gaining knowledge is reason. Secular, rational morality has a long proud tradition going back to the incredible scholarship of classical helenism with Socrates, Epicurus, through to the stoics, Spinoza and through to Rand's Objectivism. This is the only kind of morality that can be objective.

1. The next "best thing" after sliced bread was wheeled luggage.

2. The best thing since wheeled luggage is Bitcoin.

3. It's getting close:

http://www.google.com/trends/viz?q=bitcoin,%22the+bible%22&graph=weekly_img&sa=N
(blue = "bitcoin", red = "the bible")