Bitcoin Forum

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3521-bfl-doesnt-refund-anymore.html

He got his, now the rest can all go fuck yourselves.

What a motherfuckin' piece of shit. It's a shame I didn't see this coming otherwise I would have joined the choir and warned you all.

The end is nigh!

On an order placed 2-3 weeks ago, yeah, I see no problem with holding him to the "no refunds" policy, unless their delivery time gets pushed back for a long time (as has happened with previous orders).

Really? You have no problem with them promising refunds publicly, and then switching without warning to a "no refunds" policy?





LOL. How's the crow taste? Why are you selling devices that will "never see a positive ROI"?

No refund, that is very scary ;D where is josh the inaba

The website now says at checkout that all sales are final. You're quoting months old posts. You people have been screaming that the sky was falling since day one. Said they were going to take all the pre-order money and run without shipping a product. They shipped a product, and you said they were just going to ship a few to get more orders, and then take the money and run without ever shipping to customers.

They've been shipping hundreds of orders for the past few weeks, and now you're screaming that they're going to take the money and run, because they're enforcing their 'no refunds' policy on new orders that were placed AFTER they started shipping.

Every time you people are proven wrong, you come up with more bullshit to speculate about and say "I told you so" even though you've been wrong every time. I'm looking at you Phinnaeus Gage

I can confirm i got the same bullshit email from BFL.

I ordered a couple of 30gh/s machines in February, they have not even shipped a single one of those, they have not even finished redesigning it...

I asked politely for my refund and was told no.

Maybe i just need to call Inaba a cunt in public, in order to get a refund...

I'm interested in taking part in a joint legal action against BFL. I requested refund after Inaba's rant against Gar255 and I just received the same BS reply.

This is outrageous.

This is a theory

less than 300 Jalapenos(600chips), less than 10 singles(100chips) and 3 minirigs (300chips)
Total 1000 chips

It is likely that the first order was only 1000chips. Now made ​​another batch, this request will take between 8 and 12 weeks.

When they show all the chips they need, it began shipments of bulk.
The question is:
Have they done the order of 100000 chips they need for preorders?

Or are they waiting until someone buy these 100000:
https://products.butterflylabs.com/65nm-asic-bitcoin-mining-chip.html
 To pay almost 100% of the order (200000)

Inaba's rant against Gar255 and comments made about every single member of this board, were most certainly the issue that pushed me to ask for a refund, combined with the fact that BFL is clearly a ponzi.

You should probably read the link below.  Just for fun I have copied a pretty important section when it comes to refunds.

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Taking pre-order full payment for a product not yet delivered falls into different category than product already shipped.  While it may be perfectly legal to offer a no refund policy on items shipped/received (aside from defects/warranty issues), it certainly appears that not allowing a full refund before shipping a product is not acceptable to the FTC.

If I was BFL I would not want lawyers looking into this stuff

P.G maybe this was a decision of Sonny K. and NOT Sonny V.  Are you sure your accusing the right person here  ::).  Guess we should ask Josh to clear this up for us eh?

Luckily, I am able to kill the parasite inside my 'body' within 45 day limit. I used to place my 10Ghash/s on April 2013 via paypal. Currently some people think the company is the parasite which must be controlled or be killed if getting worse.

I feel happy that I am able to kick the ass successfully at last...

There I was, jacking off to new girl (small tits, tight pussy) on MFC when I had this uncomfortable feeling that I was being watched. Sure enough, I was right.

I've yet to be proven wrong about Sonny K. not being revealed.
I've yet to be proven wrong about there not being any FCC certifications in spite of Josh stating that they were forthcoming in-two-week^TM back in last November.
I've yet to be proven wrong about there not being any UL certifications.
I've yet to be proven wrong about there not being any CE certifications.
I've yet to be proven wrong about Josh not also owing a 1000 BTC bet/guarantee promise to charity.

And, I've yet to be proven wrong about amassing free scrap copper and saving pre-1981 Lincoln cents (pennies) is a better investment than purchasing copper bullion over spot.

Now, who's looking at whom?

<Zip!>

[sarcasmon] Shocked to see monkey replying first defending BFL [/sarcacmoff]

It is not easy to state what wrong it is. The delay is very serious for packaging in ASIC as BFL has their own FPGA for studying. I used to trust when they firstly ship out the 5Ghash/s to follow, by putting in US$700.00 to test out. After 14 days, I think there is problem so I use the paypal policy to blow them out as A true company cannot do no bounds. While I notice that, I have my backup plan before the action as GPU cannot stand for last. For example,how signal become stable? In the ideal case, It requires infinity copies of the same signal( not only in DSP but bitcoin) with different locations (indices) to make stable. I use the concept to stable me by using Virtual mining like hashrack(put 0.25 BTC for it), cloudhashing(0.11 BTC giveaway) and pyramining(No easy to get in but I finally make it, putting 0.01 BTC to power that up...).  After the grid forms(at least three points), GPU used is meaningless so I sell my GPU (AMD 7970)to others in a fair price (60% of the initial cost,approximately HKD 2,499) to get rid of bad suppliers.

BFL sure are a brazen bunch, given that they're on PayPal's radar, they opt to give them the finger, clearly telling PayPal that the almighty BFL will do what the fuck they please.

Here's my response to you, and, again, I don't have a dog in this ring.

There must be hundreds of "common folk" among the readers and posters of this forum.  I don't have any count, but it looks to me that most of the reports of hardware are from first-day adopters, luminaries, bitcoin insiders, or opinion makers such as bloggers.  I may be wrong in that, but if so, someone could easily show a list of "I got mine" posts from "just folks."

Nothing you state changes the perception of a company with serious cash flow problems.  As some one posts here, without the need for tin foil hat, it is very plausible that the announced chip sales is an attempt to get sufficient pre-sale capital to pay for the shipment of production chips. 

There is, in the real world, something termed counterparty risk.  I means the risk that the other side of your transaction either fails to deliver, or, more precisely, fails.  About ten days ago, there was stress in the Chinese banking system, and the overnight bank-to-bank lending rate hit 25%!  The reason was simply a deep concern that one or more large banks might be on the brink of failure.  None did, not surprisingly, and the market unfroze again. 

There is, here, with BFL, very well delineated counterparty risk; anyone can see it.  From this, detractors will extrapolate to ruin, supporters will explain and excuse the actions causing that perception.  The perception, though, is real enough.  If there is, in fact, a new restriction on refunds, some will see that as a defense against a "run", which will only add to the perceived risk.     

I agree with everything you posted except for the part I highlighted in bold. I used to think anyone could see if one was kind enough to connect the dots for them. However, confirmation bias is a very powerful effect, and people will cling to their original lines of thinking to the point of refusing to read content that could prove them wrong. It is baffling to witness in others, but I guess it is just part of the human condition.

The website has always said that, but they have stated time and time again to not worry about that. They will refund anyone. Well, Inaba lied. Again.

Time perhaps to register sonny-vleisides.com (http://bitbet.us/bet/94/sonny-vleisides-indicted-in-the-us/?ref=1E8MkRHhBNr9X29QUN2YkMxezesrEyGhSZ) to go with josh-zerlan.com (http://josh-zerlan.com/?ref=1E8MkRHhBNr9X29QUN2YkMxezesrEyGhSZ)?


Point in case, consider this bit (http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/in-re-noobs-and-conventions/#comment-93751) from some Surda guy who really really thinks he should be taken seriously:


The actual reason? It became unnervingly clear other people are aware he's being stupid and why. Which is not something the random muppet with delusions of self importance can tolerate too well.

Well yah, let me just scurry away and spend half an hour or so of my time making a list of people that will instantly be promoted to "BFL shill" status  ::)

You stand corrected,my 30GH unit shipped yesterday,FINALLY  ::)  After 1 year & 5 days  ::)

Now I'm just waiting to see if my $129 for shipping makes it a next day delivery or just lined thier pockets.....................

Well, I don't know the backstory. I assume though that when many members realized they were already screwed by receiving their miners so extremely late....that they would almost always do a mass refund together.

If they have a problem with it, they should talk to PayPal. And be the first in line, because those who are slow...usually get screwed.

Youch.

I wonder how he feels about it now? Haha

Context! What was BTC worth at that point?

http://forums.silverstackers.com/uploads/2471_popcorn-eater--e1349809240913.jpg

LMAO, you came to the exact same conclusion I did many weeks ago.

That is probably why they are so slow again. [speculation of course]

Aha, I told you so! (A Speculation of course)

RICO?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

Read through it carefully and see if it applies in any way?

Bfl treating it's customers like shit. Is this even newsworthy anymore ?

I'm not an attorney, but do know this:  RICO is pursed both in criminal charges, brought by the state, (which you are citing in your quote) and as the basis of civil complaint, brought by private parties.  It has been used successfully, for example, in forcing settlement in an instance of a large apartment owner/manager systematically defrauding tenants via withholding security deposits.

It's apparently not easy to successfully bring a pleading to trial, but if it is done successfully, the triple damages section of the law gives it very sharp teeth.

EDIT: Search "rico civil complaint" for lots of citations and references to cases.

BFL's USD refund policy provides a more likely explanation of why they would be halting refunds of recent orders. Bitcoin value was around $130 June 1st. With bitcoin value now around $90, users could abuse the refund process and essentially sell their coins for $130 today, then rebuy at $90 tomorrow. My guess is BFL is holding some percentage of preorder payments in bitcoin and can't afford to sell those coins and refund customers at a higher rate.

And yet you've been proven wrong on all of the claims that matter.

The 1000 BTC bet was dealt with. Get over it.

UL Certifications aren't required because the unit is powered by power supplies that are already UL certified.

There are differing opinions on whether Big Brother actually requires FCC certifications (everybody who's tried to make a stink about it with the FCC has received a response that they don't realy care.

It's illegal to melt Pennies, so their value is stuck at "face" period. End of story. If you're paying over spot for bullion, you should probably shop around better, and learn a little about the futures market, mmkay?

Now, as you were, Chicken Little Phinnaeus Gage

You are. They've shipped Jalapeno orders through September 14th.  ;)

Which bet? The one where they did not pay. Or the one where they donated the money to themselves?

Don't worry, if you don't like BFL just ask for a refund!  ;D ;D ;D

I'll give you a blowjob if you prove that the following 1000 BTC was satisfied.


If the FCC is such a mute issue, then why...


According to Josh, it was a requirement, hence promising in-two-weeks^TM, thereabouts, they'll have certificate in hand.

As far as your UL statement. Then why do TV makers have UL tags affixed to the back of their TVs when they're already covered from doing such via the power cord?

Did you forget about the CE certification, or do you have a logical reason for that too not being required?

BTW, I forgot about the permit that wasn't pulled during the remodeling of their new facility. Prey tell the reason why they didn't get one or needed it.

It seems like Sonny Vleisides hasn't changed his ways.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/decentralization/message/4876?o=0&var=1&p=11


As the saying goes: Once a piece of shit, always...

Looks like a lot of people have been scammed.

 
I swear you and I have been through this before B. UL is an optional certification... it certifies that a device isn't going to melt down, explode or light itself on fire. You get UL certifications on transformers because no retailer would sell them without since they handle attachment to the electric grid. Anything using an external or aftermarket power supple to convert AC to DC doesn't require (and in fact wouldn't qualify for) UL certification.

As for CE certification... who cares - this product is produced in USA and has no reason to file certs with every self-important regulatory board on the planet.

Exactly what permit are you talking about. If you're talking about the customization of the interior of their new location. Depending on the location permits might not be required. You are not for example required to get permits for freestanding non-load bearing walls built inside an existing structure as long as they don't have internal power conduits or water/gas pipes inside of them. It's quite common for companies here to purchase an overlarge warehouse, build a U shaped balcony around 3 sides of it with work/storage areas over top and offices underneath... they do this because they can use the existing power/water/gas in the warehouses external walls and don't have to get permits for the build then.

BFL did not state, "The money you are sending us is an INVESTMENT, with risk." Thus, it is a "product", and a "product that accepted USD or paypal or cc agreements". Those agreements, even when it clearly states, "no refunds", are the final word in any legal court. To even accept paypal, or a cc, you AGREE as a recipient of funds.... to offer a "reasonable return policy", and "adhere to all US laws". Which includes "returns", and deals with, "failure to deliver in a reasonable time", and also deals with what must be said if it is "a high-risk investment", as opposed to a "sale of an item".

There are also laws about "selling things you do not own", under the false pretense of, "ownership". (Thus, presales of un-owned property, which demands retainers for accounts, before you can accept any level of income from a "sale" of the "presale". EG, you can only oversell a certain amount, and must maintain enough within an account to refund or return a certain amount, in the event of failure or legal litigation.)

There is also the issue of accepting a valued trade, without reporting the value of the trade, or records of the trades, to be used for an exchange of goods or services. (Reporting BTC-value-earnings, which is done quarterly for a business, to be taxed as income.)

However, all is not lost... The price of BTC will rise again, once the "easy miners" have gotten enough debt, and can no longer settle for less. Eg, once they are no longer willing to accept less USD for the BTC they have earned. But they can still make money selling as low as $10 so don't expect the price to stop dropping at $50... They want that money more than you, even at $10-$20, per BTC. They can afford it, they make the machines that you are paying for, and taking your earnings before you can ever earn them, to cash those in too.

As if you didn't see this coming. Denial is a bitch! Join AA (Asics Anonymous)

Step 1. Hi I am (Insert Bitcointalk name here) I am a BFL pre-order addict.

Josh Butterflies http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHwc7BqKD7x8QdFTdkQAebhl2hGQpIvFcoKsBxBdfoDHC_P42h7g

It is high time BFL get scammer tag!

Addressing the UL aspect:

I'll assume every college dorm has a policy in place similar to the following: http://www.mvcc.edu/housing/summer-2013-room-agreement


If somebody is aware of a college that doesn't have such a policy in place, please make me aware of it, whereupon I will do everything in my powers to make sure they do have one otherwise they'll be shut down.

That said, we all know here that there are bitcoiners who will be using these miners in their dorms taking advantage of the free electricity. The miners will have to be UL listed and approved by the institute.

Do you honestly believe that any college will allow ANY bitcoin mining rig on their premises without a UL listed tag of sorts affixed to the unit? Do you honestly believe that any higher education institute will allow an unlist UL device to be run unattended, especially since they're known to put off excess heat?

I predict that within only two very short years every university and college in the US will specifically ban ALL Bitcoin miners from being on campus in dorms. Why? For the safety of the children due to them being a fire hazard.

Now, do we see how important a UL listed sticker thingy is?

Apologies if I came across terse, firefop. (Ironic! I just realized that fire is part of your pseudonym)

Searching for an excuse in the newly changed BFL refund policy is very funny. You can't break the law just because you've written on your refund policy that you can break the law!

So no the bet isn't dealt yet. You are among the people who are wasting your time defending tards like Josh Zerlan aka Inaba! Grats to that!

I do, i stand corrected.
Congrats to you.

I wonder if it will be 30gh or 25gh?
I wonder what the power consumption will be?


Regardless, Inaba is still a cunt.

Have they really stopped granting refunds?

I requested a refund on June 20th and June 22nd for two separate orders, and both refund requests were granted and processed within two business days.

I paid for both orders via Paypal and Amex, so had they refused my refund request I would have pursued the issue with Paypal, so perhaps that has something to do with it. If BFL loses their ability to get new funds via Paypal, I think they are done.

If BFL changed their refund policy, they must have done it within the past week.

They did, that is why it is news.  ;)


Genius.  ;D

Thank you

I don't even see the problem. They changed the TOS and people approved it at purchase. Anyone dumb enough to order in the last few weeks without doing their own due diligence deserves whatever happens.

Right... no problem at all.  :o

Unless they read one of Inaba's quotes that said that people with BFL orders can always get a refund. Also, BFL cannot force Paypal to withhold a refund.

The FTC will see a problem even if you don't.  IF you have not received your order yet the FTC has pretty clear reasons why/when a company MUST issue a refund.

You should probably read the link below.  Just for fun I have copied a pretty important section when it comes to refunds.

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2013/06/30/butterfly-labs-crumbles-getting-mass-refund-requests-units-catching-fire-and-fans-failing/

Hence no UL listed or FCC certifications. The fuckin' machines won't pass! What next, a unit catches fire in a Bitcoiner's dorm killing several people? Or a unit catching fire in somebody's home killing an infant?

Not a single principal at BFL will be able to claim that they weren't aware, for I've personally stuck this issue up their asses no less than two dozen times.

BFL's holier then thou attitude is about to nip them in their asses.

Do you honestly believe that any college administration actually would be able to actively enforce that policy? I mean they have policies against alcohol and drug use currently - and college students ignore those already.


I swear I'm not trying to be a punk on this point... but I've been through the UL certification process with several products and have finally decided that except when it comes to things transformers and power supplies its useless.

We actually had a completely safe on demand hydrogen device that we intended to install and maintain on buses... we wasted almost 100,000 dollars before we decided that they weren't going to certify due to politics and rolled up the project. To be fair they did help us resolve a couple of safety issues in the early revisions... but the final device wouldn't explode (or even break) when we created a spark in the main hydrogen collection chamber... sure it would disable the device and cause it stop functioning (and to leak distilled water - woohoo). Which was why they claimed it didn't qualify, because it might drip water on other engine components if it failed. But then I'm pretty sure you can hose down a running engine with no ill side effects... so whatever.

I respect your posts and replies, firefop. They have merit.

I understand the enforcing aspect, but they have the rules written down nonetheless to cover their asses.

That's exactly it... no transit company would consider letting us install the device without UL because of the potential civil liability if one exploded and took out a bus full of passengers. Ultimately I blame the litigation system in the USA for this mentality.

I really don't have an issue with the rules (especially since they're opt-in rather than mandated)...

But then I agree that I wouldn't expect a bfl unit to burst into flames either. So maybe I actually agree with you that they should have gotten certification.

I think the real point is they said that all these safety inspections were being done many many months ago and still none to be seen. That is reprehensible behavior given that impacts some buyers decisions. Also the implication say one of the units does kill or injury someone goes beyond BFL and to BTC itself. Can BTC afford that sort of risk? This goes for all fabricators not just BFL.

Not just that. Inaba attacked Avalon and bASIC for not having certification while claiming that BFL was going to have it.

He also hassled Tom about bASIC energy claims. Let's see what Tom had to say.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.msg1273803#msg1273803

I dont know if its going to be a BTC price collapse, lawsuit, some local prosecutor, The Feds, or some batshit crazy preorder holder who cant take it anymore and goes postal at the BFL offices, but something tells me BFL might not be around much longer.

Actually, Im really rooting for them, because it would be terrible for BTC if they went down with 85% preorders unfilled. Disaster.

Meh if they go down it will be lots of short term pain for a lot more long term gain IMO.  Disaster for a bunch of miners, ya probably, disaster for BTC, not a chance in hell!

Agreed. It will be a disaster for anyone who had a undelivered pre-order from them, but it will be good for other miners because it will keep the network hashrate down.

Wow. Just wow....wait. I already predicted much of this many months ago.

See I can thank BFL for one thing and that is taking pre-orders with no completed product = epic fail. I learned a lesson at no cost to me.

 ;D

You know all this is kind of old news (http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/preemptive-strike-to-have-on-hand-for-when-butterfly-labs-gets-hauled-off-to-jail-in-corpore/).

The rest of the stuff is pretty much nonsense, BTC price is not miner-driven in any sense. There's some impact, but I guess pretty much everyone fails to appreciate exactly how small a slice of BTC mining is. Think a tenth to a quarter. Not all, not a majority.

I totally agree

BFL are the problem holding the crypto community back !!!!

As long as they are around we will not move forward !!

Soon they will be irrelevant. Market forces will kick them out of the market if the keep their actions up like for the past year.

Lucky for us they will all be hanged out to dry.

The Bitcoin community salutes their efforts at choosing the wrong people to do business with. (In my Opinion?)

Unfortunately, BFL will help clean people out (IMO) and keep them from buying up more ASICs. We owe BFL a debt of gratitude. I only feel sorry for those that do end up losing their money. Because they have kids and families. But these customers cannot say that they weren't warned about alot of it.

If they stayed in, they gambled and lost. One way or the other. (Again IMO)

I recall seeing a thread on BFL forums where someone stated that if you have a unfulfilled order for more than 1 year (365 days) that you then legally become an investor.

If this is the case, then there are already several investors out there in from the very first orders. Investors are supposed to get compensation of some kind. (no I am not joking)

You probably qualify as an investor.

I presumed this would happen. I wrote about this possibility quite some time ago.

http://i40.tinypic.com/novfdc.jpg

Source: http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2013/06/30/butterfly-labs-crumbles-getting-mass-refund-requests-units-catching-fire-and-fans-failing/

I had joked about fires, but I never really though that would happen. Anyone have any links to such incidents? I have read about fan failures, poor ventilation, overheating and throttling issues....possibly white smoke....but not yet of fire?

Did I miss such incidents? (I stopped reading alot on BFL forums!)

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/tonobalaguer/tonobalaguer1108/tonobalaguer110800150/10215327-smart-nerd-student-in-classroom-raising-hand-with-sad-friend.jpg

"I am pretty sure (I am joking), that somewhere in the fine print it says to keep the units away from combustible objects, people and/or buildings."

I think so as the company uses statistical tricks to fool many people while they do slowly to mask the actual operations we do not know. Perhaps the profit is tripled already.

Oh HELL NO :o ,I'd be damned if I want to go thru this crap again & again as an investor with these guys  ::)

I'd have to wait two or three times as long to get my "dividends",seeing as I'm not "family"  :D

Well, I actually am one of those who thinks ASIC is good for BTC, because a sky high hashrate means the network is virtually impenetrable to attack. Which means our coins are safe. Which means the price will go up.

However, I also think that the ASIC market needs to be competitive to thrive, and BFL definitely has some very competitive products in terms of price/performance, and products which anyone can buy, like the Jalapeno.

If BFL were to go down with 85% unfulfilled, yes BTC would survive and come out fine over time, but I think it would be very bad PR short term. BTC already has enough negative associations with scamming and scummy ripoffs, I want to see the legit ones thrive, so Im rooting for BFL.

If there was a Jalapeno in every town in America, Europe, and China, BTC price would explode, because everyone would be talking about have their "piece of the pie," and right now we need positive PR and more awareness of BTC so that more business accept it.

Yeah, sort of like MtGox: just as soon as the bag holders run out of funds/patience.

You said "bag holders" , snicker... snicker.  :D

Weird, my antivirus picked up malicious content on http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2013/06/30/butterfly-labs-crumbles-getting-mass-refund-requests-units-catching-fire-and-fans-failing/
Managed to get the gist of it through good old lynx on a VM. Looks like a giant load of FUD to me. So, which of you anti-bfl shills posted that one? :P
If they were about to go under, they wouldn't be shipping units. There would suddenly be no supply of chips or boards or whatever, and people would get either no tracking data, or fake tracking IDs.

Seriously? I'm actually disappointed I took the time to read that page, given it seemingly has something that upsets my virus scanner on it. (Might be a dodgy adbar or something, who knows)

I wonder if these intrepid scam busters do target shooting like they do scambusting... drive round the countryside firing at barns, and if they hit one, draw a bullseye around the hole.

Didn't read through the entire thread so this may have been commented on, but this is 100% wrong.  It is illegal to alter a coin in an attempt to commit a fraud, like altering a nickel to try and pass it off as a quarter or cutting chunks out of 100 coins to make a new one.  Melting a coin down for it's raw materials is committing no fraud so the Title you are referring to does not apply.  People have been melting down silver quarters/dollars and copper pennies for as long as it's been profitable, no legal action has come of it.

That is correct! That is why it's profitable to pay double for a penny off eBay, melt the cents, and combine the copper with other scrap. The only concerns that the local scrapper has is if the copper is of the proper quality and that it wasn't stolen.

Too bad there's a massive paper trail leading to the the purchaser of tons of pennies, yet would have no inventory to show an investigator, let alone a sales slip if sold for profit but not disclosed on any tax forms.

Apologies for the aside. If further comment is warranted, please start a new thread quoting these two posts.

http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/?action=press_release&ID=771
New regulations in 2006 (finalized in 2007) were enacted to limit coin melting.

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2007/04/16/E7-7088/prohibition-on-the-exportation-melting-or-treatment-of-5-cent-and-one-cent-coins

You are correct in this.  Note that it does apply to US silver coins, which have been actively melted for more than 30 years.

Melting pennies brings to mind the old Seinfeld episode where Kramer and the postman (name?) undertake a pop bottle return-value arbitrage by setting out to take a postal truck full of bottles to Michigan from New York.

Okay that one is new to me, but it's addressing a fairly specific problem.  I was referring to http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/331, which is older and more general.  I know of many pawn/coin/collector shops which actively buy silver quarters/dollars and copper pennies for the purpose of melting them for the metal.

common practice for jewelers. If you can find a reputable legit jeweler, and have foreign coin to sell - they'll usually pay a little more for it because it's not illegal to melt them.

Yeah. The Treasury/Mint issued new regulations to prevent melting pennies and nickels when commodity prices spiked. The US Code you refer to deals with counterfeit mainly.

Some foreign coins are not covered by the treasury/mint regulations.

What the banks did fixing LIBOR rates is RICO but this is small time it seems more like a mail fraud or an arbitrage scam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_fraud ..... http://fraudaid.com/Dictionary-of-Financial-Scam-Terms/arbitrage.htm
I often wonder if Sonny V. is dragging this out until his parole for the last mail fraud expires?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0
I hope my suspicions are wrong and they deliver to all without running out of cash/going bust, but there have been so many broken promises over so many months.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the timing of the expected delivery of them 100K chips coincide with Sonny being off probation?

I'm probably wasting my time with this crowd, but IMO, there has been sound technical reasons for the delays, everything scopes out to anyone with any experience of hardware development. Yes they may have been over optimistic about some things. So are hundreds of other tech companies, AMD is running what, 9 months late with the HD8000 or Volcanic Islands GPU series? It's way too fucking easy to play Captain Hindsight. The Shuttle got tile damage from ice falling off the cryogenic propellant tanks? Well they should have checked them better before launch then... see, now I'm a NASA Rocket Scientist. If you think you can do better, shut up and do it.

However if these technical problems were any further over the heads of the some of the rabid, frothing assclowns on here, they'd probably hit the International Space Station. There is however a large cadre of tech and IT industry professional BFL customers, who DO get it, and are not going to be swayed by the continual irrational hatred and shit stirring. These people tend to hate politics, so they are somewhat silent, but are beginning to harbor great resentment to those who appear to be into the BFL hate bandwagon in a political way, i.e. create problem out of thin air, appear to offer solution, all to create an aura of self importance and aggrandizement.

Yes they also harbor some disappointment and frustration at the delays, but they also strongly believe that BFL is doing some cool shit as best they can. Anyone that appears to be trying to stop them doing cool shit is rapidly becoming an enemy combatant. I use that term purposely, implying as it does in the modern world that any and all means of taking said enemy combatant out of the fight for good will be considered.

I put this as a statement of what I consider to be probable. If you piss off a bunch of skilled IT and tech industry pros with decent incomes, you're going to have a bad time. It will not make you a hero, it will make you an example.


Some of you should stop and think now, you've obviously been strung along by the hate campaigners and thought there were valid reasons. Now BFL is shipping, despite everyone who gets one being named a shill by those who you trusted, there's just too many "shills" now, look around. Think! These people obviously have different motivations than the protection of the community. This is now damaging to the community, the word scam has been cheapened, made useless, they have cried wolf, when the wolves descend, nobody will be taken seriously. Cedartech, Dragon ASIC et al, these are scams. You have been used for an agenda, it's now quite clear that that agenda is focused on actually preventing BFL delivering. That's not what they wanted you to believe before was it? They wanted you to believe they were putting pressure on BFL TO deliver, to make sure nobody was ripped off. You have been scammed by them. Make an objective analysis of some of their statements. These are just not the statements of reasonable people that are on the side of the BFL customer.

In view of this now becoming obvious, I would advise anyone who has been misled by these people to report the value of their BFL order as a negative "could have lost" in the trust system.

regards,

Flash

I think one of the issues aggravating BFL's awkward position during this whole saga is Josh as the "official?" mouthpiece and his delivery of obstacle information as progress.  Maybe he is just the messenger... and we all have a tendency to shoot the messenger.

I think it seems very unlikely that the obstacles presented early (i.e. late 2012 time frame) could have been based on information which had, as Colbert would say, much "truthiness".  More information with less truth makes for a complicated read.  And the saga, at least to me, seems very complicated.

Since they aren't processing refunds... I think the discussion of trust in BFL's future is moot.

Let me summarize your post.

Why the ice not the O-rings?

The cadre doesn't always get it right. BFL is simply unethical in it's business practices there is little about the tech at this point that matters.

Engineer Who Opposed Challenger Launch Offers Personal Look at Tragedy

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/researchernews/rn_Colloquium1012.html

<In the voice of BFL>

Dear BitcoinTalk,

Please move this vile to off-topic otherwise we will be forced to cease advertising on your lovely forum.

Sincerely,

Jody Drake

jd/scv

Thought it had to do with the page or two of discussion regarding melting pennies?

"Bitcoin to Precious Metals direct"

quote BFL_Josh 07-11-2013, 09:05 PM :

"I placed a couple small orders with both Amagi and Coinabul on the same day, several weeks ago. Amagi's stuff arrived today... Coinabul is nowhere to be seen."

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3807-bitcoin-precious-metals-direct.html#post47009