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The batch 3 miners are delayed and thats a problem. But one reason i chose to buy chips was that i was sure nothing can go wrong timewise. The chips are proven to work, they were successfully created already. So creating more ASIC's and shipping them can be done without any technical problems like batch 3 miners now seem to have.

I bought one batch 3 miner too and asked for a refund when it was allowedfor my batch 3 miner. I feel sorry for those that wait for their miners but one product that is delayed should not lead to spread the problem to the next independent product. That only makes things worse for even more customers. And holding the chips back for protecting the miner investments is only a small effect since other asic-provider still sell. Clearly to see in the difficulty.

Im not sure how many have the same opinion but i dont want to see to turn the next product inefficient only because another product has problems.

PLEASE work up the tickets before shipping chips.
THANKS!

I find that Bitsyncom hasn't logged in here for 2 weeks+ mildly concerning.  Are they still replying to tickets at all? I noticed that only one of the B3 refunds has actually been processed.

In your logic, Bitsyncom should ignore your chip orders, give you refund option and focus on 2nd generation chips. Because your chip order already delayed too just as batch#3 miners.

iikun... if you call him you can see that he occassionally clicks away a call. He reads ticket headers but getting an answer is nearly impossible.

Wayne_Chang... i think that is your logic and i dont understand it. I asked for a miner refund because the long delay for batch 3 is so big that i dont believe anymore to get the buying price back. Thats not the case with the chips. I didnt ask for a refund for the chips. I ordered chips because not much can go wrong. Now having the chips delayed because of an independent product isnt ok. It doesnt help the b3- buyers anyway when you see the difficulty. So why should the next group of customers get problems?

Think about it just like we took train from same place to same destination. Your ticket was 1 hour earlier than mine. But the train delayed 1 hour. When the train arrived staition, the conductor let me go first just because you was already delayed but I didn't. Do you think this logic is right or wrong?

Separate trains... neither of which have yet left the station.

My personal feeling is that they will ship chips first, as that would be easier... but refunds are even easier than chips, and we haven't seen any progress there either.

+1

Yo aint gettin chips until ya gettin our batch three and 4 avalon.
ya all aint no winners!

@SebastianJu, you should spam call Yifu until he finally answers. You seem to have had luck in the past. :P

The comparison with the trains doesn't work because the comparison is wrong. A better comparison would be if one person arrives via train and the other arrives by plane. The airport misplaces the luggage the passenger had brought along the plane. Is it fair for the airport hub to hold the train arrivals until they find or unload the passengers luggage that was misplaced on the flight. Of course not, the person that traveled by train shouldn't be delayed or penalized.

If the Avalon chips came in for Avalon B3 order and also the Avalon chips for only chip orders, then those should go out ASAP. It's not ethically fair to hold up chips for one group when the chips are ready for both the Avalon units and DIY boards. Whether its a hold up on pcbs, other parts or assembly its not fair for the DIY avalon chip projects out there. This will also have a negative effect on them since the next generation chips will be coming out down the road which also cuts into them as well.

Maybe a good practice would be to return some of the premined Avalon asic income that was generated from testing the units and use those to partially credit B3 people's purchase.

By that metaphor, one assumes that the Batch #3 chips were in fact always intended by Bitsyncom to have been manufactured as part of the mass chip order for the cumulative ordering of all the bulk chips, or that subsequently Bitsyncom has decided it would be prudent to save money in waiting to place one huge chip order to cover all sales, as opposed to a required smaller run specifically for Batch #3. Which at Batch #3's significantly increased price point, priced to meet promised returns from proposed difficulty at a guaranteed delivery date, wayy ahead of the bulk chip delivery, would be a gross misappropriation of Batch #3 buyers' funds.

In essence it looks like Batch #3's chips were manufactured at the exact same time as all the bulk orders, so any proposed price point based on return on investment due to their assumed future difficulty, which at the time never included such massive quantities of bulk chips, was totally false...

And that is why so many of us B3 folk opted for a refund.  The reasons which made the deal sensible went out the window with the chip sales following right on their heels/ahead in shipping.

This assumes the chips are ready and waiting to be shipped, of which there is no evidence of.  Just be patient and wait for your chips as we wait for our Avalons.  What will be will be.

If you guys insist on your logic, how about this.
Bitsyncom comes out 2nd generation wafer, and sold out immediately. Because wafer do not need to do assembly and test, so they ship wafer before your guys' chips or at least paralleled.
How do you think in this way?
Guys, first in first out is the basic rule. Especially for goods come from same company and will affect each other no matter which is shipped first.

Was there a promise that stated in writing that stated Avalon batch 3 units investment would be paid off and if so, in what time frame. That's part of the risk with investing in hardware and supporting the network. It might now always be in ones best interest and ones rate of return might not be as fast as one thought.

Wasn't their entire price point explained by Bitsyncom at the time of order to be based on; a calculated future difficulty, at the time of a guaranteed delivery, so ROI could be met in a proposed timeframe preceding any profit from thereon after...?

As long as all avalon 1st generation chips were shipped and say the next day generation 2 chips came out that were 10 times faster, I'd be ok with that. That's the risk one takes with mining. No where is there a guarantee on paying off ones hardware. If bitcoins ever become worth $1000 each, then all of us have nothing to complain about as long as one holds onto a percentage of there earnings.

Not sure, but that would be pretty gutsy or irresponsible for a company to promise how long it'd take to pay off their hardware especially because of bitcoins price fluctuation and they had no idea how far BFL was behind and how many they could actually assemble and ship on a daily basis.

If you know of a statement, you should link it as I'd be interested in that.

Either way, I'm way more invested in Bitfury's design than my avalon investment.

The concern is that for the Chips people were given a 9-10 week *definitive* timeline.

Chips cannot be refunded - which is clear and most people seem to agree with this that they shouldn't.

Batch 3 is delayed and, incidentally, a refund has been offered.  Any excuse to delay chips beyond batch 3 is absurd and unjustifiable.

You absolutely cannot use a Batch 3 as an excuse to make a 9-10 week lead time something that has a almost 15 week delay - at the minimum.  No one in their right mind will continue doing business on a larger scale with a company that acts so unprofessionally.  Over a 50% delay and not an update - not sure which is worse here.

Have to admit, I'm not 100% I've seen Biysyncom detail the reasoning behind their pricepoint, it may well have been forum users speculating their reasoning for such pricing, I'll have to dig around, so far from googling 'Avalon Batch 3 pricing', and going through some old emails from being a subscriber to their newsletter at the time, there's this from them w.r.t. B#3 price:



The irony being a lacklustre performance in shipping a product they took money for...

In that logic BFL should stop shipping jalapeno from July before he deliver single from June and make more damage to all.
Avalon not alone in business anymore. If he not deliver chips soon we all lose money...
Maybe that is good for community, next time he must first make chips than sell him...

I'm wondering where are those million Avalon chips now which were seen on pictures from Hong Kong some weeks ago.

Are they in some warehouse collecting dust?

Ship the chips Yifu!!!!!   Please...  ;D

-1

Honestly, I'm of a different opinion.
It's enough seeing BFL spit on "the queue" by sending Jalapenos out that were later ordered than other singles/rigs.
Please don't do that too, Avalon. Batch 3 boxes were just ordered first.
Thx 4 reading.

@Yifu, dont hold back the chips , this have no sense.  Think forward and send the chips.

+1  :D

Well guess what, I don't see a written statement that no chips will be delivered before avalon shipments are complete... Neither do I see a clause in the chip shipment information that shipping might be delayed due to delays in other products.

Batch 3 customers didnt saw that statement too, however #3 is delayed.

I don't see chip buyers running around begging avalon b3 to be delayed, do you?

Well here we go.... PLEASE DELAY BATCH 3, Ship the chippies first so we can develp more boards then just avalon

I love how you guys post here like they are going to respond.

Don't any of you know a lawyer who can send these guys a certified letter and start the process?

It's really very simple, they took your money and now you need to get their attention.

Just need someone to step up.

Avalon batch 3 is a product of Bitsyncom,
Chips are a product of TCSM,
Jupiter and Saturns are a product of KnCminer.

So, i pretend that KnCminer now delays his hardware shipment, to protect us poor customers.

Its more like there are people that want to go by train and not have to drive on their own and other people that want to drive on their own by car. The time for the train comes and the road is blocked for the cars... everyone waits and after a long time its said that the train still is standing in the station. But the cars have to wait and wait only because the train should have go through before after schedule. Instead letting the cars through all have to suffer. And instead giving refund to those sitting at the train station so they could buy a taxi ticket the refund is missing. But even with refund... the taxi wouldnt go through... its blocked.
I mean yifu would not even have work with shipping the chips. A least not much. Solving some tickets, telling his shipment provider how many chips to ship to which address and thats it. Completely different to creating miners.


I gave up on this. I tried it for days... i have a list with all the calls and how fast the call was ended... 90% of the time it rings out at 30 seconds, the remaining times he click me away. He will definitely not answer me anymore. I gave up on this. I know he reads the topics of tickets... thats the only thing i try occasionally to remind him.


I would have kept it when it came in time... May 5th was the original shipping date  :o... its now nearly 3!!! months later... i mean the chips would have been shipped a good time after that... then assembly and so on... b3-miners would have gotten their chance. But at least yifu saw himself that there is a problem and offered refund. In bitcoin... thats something good... though i miss the refund till now.


I dont doubt that they are there. Yifu collected chip batches until 5 weeks after opening of the sales. Then he ordered all batches at the foundry at once. All future batches were ordered instantly at the foundry. Most probably because they didnt have started to produce and so the new batch still could switch into queue. And the foundry waited a bit so that they only have to change their machines one time and produce all in one rush. Now already many chips are shipped to those 2 big wholesale buyers and one small batch to zefir. Im sure those chips are produced with all the others. But those wholesalebuyers were smart enough to get a special contract with fast delivery. I doubt that so many chips were ordered in between. If they would have ordered those wholesale chips from the start then it would have been no problem to order all other batches right in the moment of ordering. But yifu didnt, he ordered after 5 weeks.
Of course thats no evidence but i think it contains some logic.


Wouldnt happen. Because new generation chips cant be produced faster than already proofed old ones. I ordered the old chips especially because i know that it can be done fast.


*lol* I hope you never become a manager at amazon. You probably would stop the whole shipment machinery when goods are sold out. Yes, youre right, these buyers ordered earlier but hold back other already available goods? I hope you get the point.

@AMD FTW... I remember too that Yifu calculated the price on future mining income. It was some kind of formula... *search* I guess i found it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=203745.msg2629734#msg2629734


Thats unfair from BFL, i see this too. But the difference is that they work on those newer orders first while they should work on the olders first.
Its different with avalon. The chips ONLY need to be shipped. No miner to create. So thats not an excuse.

You sir are a doormat.

He holds all the cards??  You paid, he did not deliver. Its not about "oh maybe someday he will send me what I paid for"  After a while you are just a chump.  Question is when is that? 12 weeks? 14 weeks?  4 months?

Seb posted the link above where Bitsyncom determined B#3's price point;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=203745.msg2629734#msg2629734

In any case it's from the FAQ on the official Avalon site;

http://launch.avalon-asics.com/#home





F.A.Qs
the need to know
What form of payment do your accept, and where in the world do you ship?

The only form of payment accepted is Bitcoin, we ship worldwide.

If I purchase Avalon Unit right now when can I expect to receive my unit?

At the time of writing Batch #3 is expect to start shipping early May.

How is each batch’s unit price determined?

The price of each unit is the current mining difficulty which at the time of writing, just got readjusted to about 6,695,826. We take that number and multiply it by two ( predicting the network speed will double. ) and calculate the return in a thirty day window, which is about 75 bitcoins. See this site for more details.

How can I find the latest firmware and documentation on the Avalon Unit?

The firmware, documentation and various other information is located on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Avalon

Is there any plan to sell just the ASIC chips themselves and let others build their own units?

Yes, see http://store.avalon-asics.com/?page_id=9605 and https://github.com/BitSyncom/avalon-ref

I believe your buddy Yifu is in NY

Hypothetically speaking, why would you go to China with a lawsuit?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157856.msg2594647#msg2594647

Sue a Chinese company in China? Good luck with that. It would take years and cost a fortune.   And since their assets are in bitcoin, they can't really be seized either. Suing Yifu in NY would also be different, since you don't have a contract with him personally.

___
Technically speaking the fair thing to do would be to ship the batch 3 units that people ordered first, because people who ordered them expected them before the network was flooded with massive numbers of ASICs.

Also, for everyone else the longer they delay the more mining time at low difficulty everyone else gets.

Basically you're arguing that Bitsyncom should screw over the 'lil guy who can't afford 10k chips at a time but does have a batch3 miner on order, in order for you to get your product quicker.

I don't know what they'll do. They should really just focus on getting everyone's orders processed.

Batch 3 in total will  take between 144,000 chips and 192,000 chips.  If they're still waiting on chips from the fab, it would be unethical to delay production on batch 3 and send the chips to customers instead. If they have all the chips they need, they should probably send both. 

Of course, Yifu said that he wanted to get out of the individual miner business and get into the chip business instead. In that case it would be better to keep chip buyers happy then it would be to keep miner buyers happy - since they can't be repeat customers.

Interestingly, he said he got into the business because he wanted to strengthen the network, not make miners rich, and he's annoyed by people submitting tickets whining about their position in the queue order.

BitSyncom LLC
187 Wolf Road, Suite 101
Albany, NY 12205
USA

Kinda poor form on Yifu being incommunicado for so long.

Not sure what is going through that dude's mind.

He said like 90% of the the 'support tickets' filed were people whining about the order queue, trying to change their position, and he didn't like it very much. That's exactly what's going on here - someone requesting that Yifu completely screw over one group of customers in order to benefit him.

Bitcoin mining hardware is different then any other industry, especially right at this moment. For most people, if something they ordered is delayed, they might be annoyed but it's not going to be that big of a deal at all. And for a hardware startup butterfly lab's 13 month delay wouldn't even be that big of a deal if it was just some gadget.

But, bitcoin mining hardware is incredibly time dependent.  If you're three months late it's a major problem. If you're 13 months late, and you took in bitcoin at $10 now it's $100... yeah people are going to be livid.

The problem is the expectations and anger from users is way in excess of what you'd see in most businesses.  On the other hand, whenever you offer a product people throw money at you, even if you completely ignore them.  So the obvious incentive is to simply ignore everyone.

Be patient and see what happens. I almost ordered 10k chips but got cold feet for exactly these same reasons since my batch 2 Avalons were almost 2 months late with little info why at that point. Eventually they did arrive and actually run 20+% faster than advertised and are 100% stable. Sure they would have made A LOT more had they arrived on time but don't lose perspective because of all that lost opportunity. You're still very early in a long long queue of people trying to get their hands on ASIC's and you'll most likely make a lot of money despite the delay and you'll have Yifu to thank. I hope he gets his "blackhole" of information under control and his timelines more accurate but I'm sure he's doing his best which we should all be grateful for IMO...

So where exactly does it say that batch #3 is held up due to a shortage of ASIC chips?

I believe were getting fucked....

As a Batch 2 owner and also waiting on a B3... I waited over 3 months past the original ETA for my B2 box.

Those of you thinking "chips" would magically arrive on time ether haven't been up on things obviously or need a hard dose of reality... When the chips are ready we will hear from Avalon and everything will be relatively fine and dandy.

I went through all kinds of emotions waiting for my B2 box.  Sure it might sound a little "Stockhom Syndrome"-esq but the reality is Avalon is consistently late (not nearly as bad as BFL obviously) and is more of a "best effort" Quality of Service level guarantee.  To expect German precision production on this is just, well lets say "too optimistic".

Everyone may gripe, but we are not about to kill the goose laying the golden eggs.   

Not about the Batch 3's or chips being first.

We all ordered and we were all promised a delivery date.

Meet the dates or SHIP asap that is all that needs to be done.

This.  I'm not sure why people are saying B3 or chips should be shipped first.  It's deadlines that should be met when promised.  Simple as that.

Anyone who says B3 should come before chips appears to be playing a childish game of "me first".  This is more about deadlines not being honored and not who should be going first.

It's sort of expected that when someone says that something will be delivered on XYZ it will be delivered on XYZ not XYZ + A days/weeks/months.

BitSyncom can hold B3 and chips more time, but must compensate ROI dropping - partial refund for adjust price proportionally growth of difficulty. Otherwise, they are just crooks.

And so are the people who are claiming chips should be sent before B3 units.  Everyone is greedy.

I don't have a B3 order or a chip order so I don't really care either way.

We all are playing childish game "whos first".

NO! All the chip buyers are asking for is for the shipping to be according to pre-communicated terms (10 weeks lead time).

On the other hand B3 buyers are not asking why their products have not been shipped on time, rather they are asking that shipping of another product is  delayed to improve their ROI.

So tell me how twisted your mind must be to consider this appropriate.





Also chip orders have much more BTC tied in them compared to Avalon B3. So no, B3 avalon buyers are not more important than the people that have been dumping thousands of BTC on chips.

This thread shows people's greedy and selfish clearly.
Do you really think Avalon team is holding back the chips?
As I know the capacity of TSMC is very limited. Maybe the delay of chips are caused by TSMC or assembly factory.

well, here is the deal. you send money to somebody and we both accept the conditions. you side is pay in time, his side is deliver article in time (time is specified in deal).

and avalon not fulfill his side of deal. it doesn't matter if it caused by 3rd party vendor (TSMC) or anything else. zero fucks given. they simply breach mutual agreement. please stop advocate somebody, how is breaching deals and use words as greed and selfish. it is not about this human attributes..(or maybe yes, on avalon side)

next part (very frustrating) is lack of communications from avalon side. once they breach deal, they should communicate on daily basis and push update to their customers every day + send few free chips as compensation of delay. this is how business works in Europe. maybe scammers from chinese basement don't know it.

@Ytterbium, Wayne_Chang, koob

Again... so when someone orders an acer notebook with amazon and the notebooks arent in stock anymore then you really await that all orders for intel celeron that came after that should stop until the acer notebook can be delivered? Because its fair?

The problems with b3 are a problem in itself. But there are no problems with the chip batches. So how the heck you await that b3 is shipping faster only because the chips arent shipped? Where do you get that connection from? I ordered chips because i know nothing really can go wrong. Its a proven concept. It only has to be created and shipped.... done. It has nothing to do with b3. And thats why i ordered them.

Regarding chips arent produced... did you miss that several wholesale buyers in china got tens of thousands of chips already? zefir is the only normal buyer that got one normal batch. So if those big buyers got their chips then our chips has to be produced already too. Because... yifu collected chip batch orders for 5 weeks, then he ordered at the foundry. All further ordered batches turned to "ordered" instantly. That means the chips werent already produced in foundry and the new chips could be put on the already existing order list. TSMC is only creating once because the biggest work they have with creating such chips is to change their working space to produce them. So its best for them to do all in one rush.
If you guys are right and those wholesale chips were ordered before and created before then yifu wouldnt have collected chip orders for 5 weeks. He would have moved those orders instantly to TSMC like he did after the order. That sounds to me like a pretty good indicator that our chips are already created.

By the way... TSMC isnt a small company... its nearly THE company for creating chips. So no, there is no big waiting time because they can only produce a small number of chips per time. The wait is only because its more effective to create more chips at once instead in more than one run.

The only ones who are greedy and selfish are batch #3 customers openly asking for chip batches to be delayed. There may be the reason(s) for the delay of the products you've ordered, like manufacturing problems, alleged sabotage, shipping provider problems, etc. On the contrary, there is no and can not be a reason for the delay of chip batches since single person can ship all of them within one working hour. The only reason for delaying is to openly cheat and manipulate your customers, which was not ever the case with your precious Avalon batch #3 delay. Not delivering the chip batches within the promised 10 weeks time-frame shifts Yifu from troubled hero to open cheater category.


You should inform yourself before throwing such a nonsense around just for the sake of the argument. TSMC is 2nd largest world chip provider delivering them for nVidia and other giants. They eat manufacturing of Avalon chips for breakfast.

All this trains and planes and cars analogies are nonsense.

My guess is that they will go out in parallel. 

I doubt the chips for B3 are even being shipped to the same place as the chips for export.

The chips for export will be exported, and the chips for B3 will be turned into miners.

They will both ship when available.

+1 Nothing more to say.

How is it selfish to ask a vendor to hold up the terms of the deal that they themselves specified?


Either through incompetence or malice, yes.  It doesn't make any sense for TSMC to do small batches of chips.  There is quite a bit of setup time that goes in to producing a run of ASIC chips, so it is in their best interest to produce as many as time allows after setting up all the equipment.  So for them to only have 10,000 or 20,000 chips at once is very suspicious to me.


How do you "know" this?

As you guys can assume Bitsyncom is holding back the chip shipment, why I cannot assume there is no chip available?
I am not questioning on TSMC is delaying the chip. I am questioning did Avalon really passed the chips order to TSMC on time just like they said.

Why should avalon wait 5 weeks and then change all chip orders to ordered at once? And all following batches were changed to ordered very fast too then. I think "Chips ordered" is very clear in this context. And, like i wrote, there are already 10th ot thousands of chips delivered.

If that's really what you're saying, it's FAR FAR worse.  That means they took in almost EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS worth of people's money, and then again, either through incompetence or malice, just sat on the money for a while.  I don't think that you guys realize just how much money is at stake here with these chip orders.  This isn't just a few pieces of hardware, this almost a million chips.  With no possibility of a refund, unlike batch 3 orders.  

People were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with their custom designed and assembled hardware because there are lots of places that can fail or be delayed...but they're acting solely as a passthrough here.  They basically just did the biggest group buy in the history of the internet.  They took in a bunch of money, picked up the phone, and stuff was supposed to be ready two months later. It should have been foolproof.  Now they're a month late and not telling any of the people they took eight million dollars from a damn thing.

Don't believe me? Take a look at this bitcoin address.  This is the payment address for chip orders: https://blockchain.info/address/1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU

Notice that all the payments received are ~782btc.

Can I say you guys too naive?
See what they did on refund customers. Many customers status changed to "Refunded" 1 day but with no money received. Then these status changed to "processing refund".
Till now you still believe in them? Come on, you should pray your can receive your chips finally instead of eaten by them.
They said batch#2 shipment would be finished within June. Actually many of batch#2 customers received their miners in July.
They said batch#3 will be shipped within 2 weeks. Now we are in 3rd week and most of batch#3 customers not received their miners yet.
If you still believe in them, you must have really good faith on them.
By the way, looks only 1 customer of batch#3 received his refund till now. How many days passed since Avalon said they accept refund request?

Most of batch#3 customers are in an awkward position.
Refund, till now not received. No one knows when can they receive.
Not refund, also no one knows when they can receive the miner.
What I can say is I wish you guys good luck!

Yifu alluded to that address having nothing to do with him...although he didn't deny it either;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=227103.msg2399090#msg2399090


I'm just wondering, and genuinely not to spread FUD, but purely because they are a small team and the fear some of Bitsyncom members showed by changing mobile numbers and disappearing AWOL (Yifu mentioned this a while back), along with the exposure Bitcoin and Yifu has generated w.r.t. building money printing machines currently evading government scrutiny, if they have picked up some attention from some less than friendly customers with nefarious intent, i.e. a criminal gang that's 'politely' asked them to delay some orders so they can capitalise.

Then again, every time Yifu, or for that matter any company representative posts in these forums once money has been taken, the backlash appears more trouble than it's worth. Still there is the responsibility to keep people abreast of the situation regardless of how happy the news may, or may not make them at points...

How many times have I posted about the perils of pre-order? 

No, no! is the cry in its defense; it facilitates businesses where there wouldn't be any; we only risk what we can lose; we're investors, and the promoters understand and respect that.

Bullshit.  When you give somebody your money in a transaction, you lose your power.  When you give somebody your money in a non-refundable transaction, you're setting your self up to be a victim.

We don't know.  Avalon may not be shipping simply because its too much of a hassle from them to deal with the mundane details of retail fulfillment.  Maybe tomorrow, but today, the sun is out, and the new BMW is too much fun to drive.

I hope for the best, because of the DIY movement.  I fear reality, though.

How do you know they sent chips to wholesalers in China? I heard someone mentioned pictures of massive numbers of Avalon boxes somewhere, but I've only seen one set of pictures.

But if that is true, it's likely that Avalon is focusing on major customers first, i.e. people who ordered 10 sets are getting priority queue placement over people who ordered just one box - why? Because they'd rather have a 10 box repeat customers then a 1 box repeat customer.

The thing is, Avalon doesn't like dealing with customers, especially whiny customers. This much is pretty much obvious.  So, it's possible they're treating their annoying customers badly in hopes they go away, and treating their most understanding and most profitable customers the best.

That sucks for ya'll. But if they are having problems with their chip supply then that's the most likely reason - I do seriously doubt they're delaying chips so batch 3 customers can make ROI, that would fair (IMO) but also insane from a business perspective.

___
So either they are being incredibly fair and burning future chip customers by delaying chips to get Batch 3 out the door, or,

They are giving special priority to some chip customers over others because they value large orders over small ones.

I was waiting for that.  I bought chips through a group buy, and all the payments from that group buy went to this address.  Chip orders cost 782BTC, and almost all of the transactions to that address were for that exact amount or very close.  People were wondering why Yifu hadn't spent any of the 72K BTC yet, and I think what he was alluding to is that either TSMC or some other entity was interested in keeping the funds as BTC and paying for the fab work using currency from some other source.  My point was- that address is most definitely for chip orders, and there are almost 100 x 10,000 chip orders there.


It just looks extremely bad to be A.W.O.L with 8 million dollars of peoples money. Even if they don't have good news to give.

So why Avalon didn't send zefir more than one 10k batch of chips over a week ago, although his first groupbuys were ordered only days apart?


I agree with Avalon, customers are a nuisance. But still, you cannot just ignore them and think it doesn't hurt your future business. I wonder what company will trust Avalon to deliver their upcoming 2nd generation chips on time.

The more I think about it, the less likely it is to be something nefarious, it's more than likely the fact his phone (which according to Seb Ju) still rings, rings like crazy, if he's not already using a different number.

Whatever news Yifu does have, probably will just wind people up more, even if it is good, 100% of people are never happy, and all that matters is the units and chips in hand, so it's probably wall of silence time to prevent himself from being dragged into a slanging match which he definitely know will do him no favours.

Again this is where someone specialised in communications would have been a worthwhile addition, and whatever occurs, whether he intends to sack off building units and intends to sell chips again in future, Bitsyncom cheaped out, and cut corners there, unnecessarily, as I cannot see the stress being worth not paying someone handsomely who can handle that shiz...

Who has his cell phone number.

I am pretty sure I can get his attention.

Refunded is the standard tag in such shops, there is no "processing refund" from the start... so they later added that status tag. Its fine for me, my miner is at processing refunds now and i think Yifu prefers to work on delivering batch 3 miners instead refunding. Refunding at least will take some time, but not much at all of course. But its bitcoins... the value of the refund isnt changing... at least if you dont plan to reinvest it. So a refund that remains its value over time compared to a product that constantly lose value and might even turn into a loss over time is a difference.

Werent batch 3 miners supposed to ship may 5th? That wouldnt be 3 weeks, that would be 3 Months! already. I might be wrong on the date, i read it in the forum.

Regarding believing... i still believe they will deliver... but i will not make business with them anymore. The reason is not the delay, the worse thing is the support. There is no support. And Yifu will not change this. He will not hire a support person even though he cant manage the support on its own. And that is, especially with pressing tickets, something i cant accept.

So in future... i will only invest in bitcoin world not only when i dont have any doubts about a product, company and the persons behind but only too when the support is correct. Unfortunately zefir told me that bitfury had a fine support... until he ordered. There is no support there anymore too now. I really hope such business models will be changed to better ones. Market normally would regulate this on itself, unfortunately we are in a semi-monopoly.


Someone translated it in the forum. These chips seems to be bought from a businessman that wanted to create miners and sell them. Im sure someone who buys such amounts or even know yifu personally to speak to him can make a special contract that enforces Yifu to ship immediately... unfortunately we are only normal customers.

It really looks like yifu doesnt do support in the hope it goes away somehow on its own. But look at zefir. He ordered 7 batches of chips. In fact he ordered a 8. one too. And my groupbuy has 5 own batches. I consider this as not small. So if he would prefer the big ones there should have been moving some more.

Avalon shipped already many chips and they probably ordered many batches at TSMC before so they should know how long it takes. When they waited 5 weeks to order then it probably is because they know it takes 4 weeks to get them. Then they could ship in a week and would have kept their promise. I dont see why this timeframe should change especially now when private buyers wants chips too.


I stopped calling since i realized he wont answer. But he is still using this number.

Im not the same opinion. News always lead to a bit peace of mind for most. Not knowing is prone to heat up the atmosphere. Communication is key to lower this. Give the customers some hope, a date or something and they will be quiet again at most. And thats why i think yifu shipped one batch of chips for zefir and gave one refund for a batch 3 miner. To show that he will do it and to take away doubts a bit. Maybe the chip batches too to let other buyers know the bill details.

Regarding support stress... when someone has a pressing ticket like me... he cant let it lie. So if yifu simply would solve that ticket it would be done in 2 minutes maximum. Instead he prefers to get called day in and out, knowing who i am, getting more and more tickets, emails and so on so that it looks like a huge amount of work. And that only because of 2 minutes work. Thats plain stupid, sorry.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157856.msg2594647#msg2594647

But you wont... he wont answer simply, letting it ring out or click you away. And his voice recorder... i dont know he is hearing it.

Hahahaha - you know nothing, thats sure! VERY limited :-)

Chips produced Week 25 ( 16-22 june) i look on OROBANK picture
22 July zafir receive tracking number that is 30 days delay...

Someone posted that the numbers on the chips can tell in what week they were produced. I only have some sample chips remaining so that probably doesnt help much. Would be interesting if burnin could take a look at the chips he got from zefir or one of the wholesale buyers.

Here is a photo of a chip form zefir's first batch, as far as i read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264897.msg2833915#msg2833915

Does it mean this chip was produced in week 25? That was the week from june 17-23. That should be pretty solid proof that the chips are produced.

where do you see week 25 in the picture what is the code  ?

25 before last 2C means week 25.

Another possibility: In his talk he mentioned that he was selling large amounts of BTC privately in order to pay for fabrication.  It's possible that 75k btc address belongs to some rich person he was selling coins too.

But that said, it really does look like all of those transactions were for chip orders, as most of them seem to be close to even multiples of 780BTC. For example check out 17Tfh8SE71MbvQ5vZtXPQA8a4YM8NPv3bf (https://blockchain.info/address/17Tfh8SE71MbvQ5vZtXPQA8a4YM8NPv3bf) Which did nothing except take in 15.6k BTC, and then send it to the 1FGAftz... (https://blockchain.info/address/1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU) address.

That's slightly more then the cost of 20x boxes of chips.   

I think the most likely scenario is that large orders are being prioritized over small ones.

Yifu stated in newsletter that the chip orders will be shipped in order of ordering in the shop. But even when he ships in order of order size... there are no more happy customers yet. There are many days in between now already.

They also said the miners will be shipped per pre-order sequence.
Then what we got now? Were batch#2 and batch#3 miners shipped per pre-order sequence?

Thanks for re-posting this Bitcoinorama, I actually hadn't seen it until now.  Technically, we didn't "corner" Yifu at the conference.  We all sort of huddled around him after his speech and since there were other speakers coming into the room, we all collectively moved outside.  Things are probably a bit different now, but at the time people were thankful that he was able to deliver miners when Josh couldn't.   Some guy even handed him an ice cream bar when he said he was hungry; another guy offered to take his trash before Yifu took it back and said he's going to throw away his own trash.  Now it's unknown what's going on, especially since this (chip design) is the direction he really wanted to take his company so to alienate his customers for a $10 million or so (this could be a helluva bigger enterprise if he delivers) would be short-sighted since he'd be josh'ing his reputation for the rest of his life at 23. 

I'm hopeful it will be resolved soon. 

 Hopefully. I don't think it's too much to ask to hold people to account to their own timelines. It is now beyond 10 weeks for many chip orders with the Avalon team being incommunicado.

 Zefir's batch shipping seems anomalous given the volume of orders.

I don't have any chips or batch 3, but i definitely considered it at the time. The pricing for b3 put me off and the amount intermediaries put me off the bulk chips, although I love the community team effort so far and understand the frustration.

That said I'm confident it will work out fine. It appears Yifu has a habit of going silent just before activity and let's the activity speak for itself, which I think is still a positive thing. As much as you guys want reassurance, I can't help but imagine he is being hounded by all customers that have contact to him, his phone and enails are going bezerk, and he's probably buzzing around like a blue arsed fly trying to get it all sorted and sleeping as and when he can. No doubt there is some immature decisions being made due to lack of experience, schoolboy errors and probably pulling all nighters like all uni students do. I realise he is no longer at university, but he's of that age and disposition so I'd imagine I'd have been similar in that respect at that age, in fact I know for sure I was!

Likewise I appreciate the impatience experienced by you guys currently, some warranted, the rest just down to having an impatient trait, but in any case the B3 guys know there has been a spike of activity today in their mining pool indicating B3 is about to ship and some of the bulk chips have arrived in peeps hands so that's surely an imminent release.

In any case the best thing I think you can do for yourselves is stop staring at the screen and refreshing in the hope of news for the next 72 hours and hopefully something will transpire. Irrespective of what the ideal situation will be you know a bit about the charachter, you know he's a little flakey with comms, and you've got to appreciate he must be rushed of his feet, so don't get mad at him just yet as all signs indicate the wait will soon be over for you. Stay calm, stress does not help things, ever! ;)

+1 Correct.

The only measure we need go on is that. Delivery dates need to be met. Still waiting on our developer chips from a group buy as it is was stated 4 weeks for those. I find that telling from our June 24th order.

Very valuable information!

(Gridchip) fidelhi's chips are from week 24 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252233.msg2694806#msg2694806). Landed in HK on 2013-06-25 and he received them most possibly on 2013-07-09.

There is another (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=229795.0) chinese Avalon project, but I couldn't identify more.


So there are chips from week 24 (fidelhi) and week 25 (zefir, order date 2013-04-16) which were delievered on 2013-07-09 and 2013-07-23.


My best guess: they are indeed producing and shipping, but follow a) the queue and b) Avalon has as far as I recall hundrets of 10k chip orders... But on the other hand there would be people who received their chips. I would PM everyone who received chips (i.e. those chinese guys from above) and ask about details to create an overview. You also could do collect data on sample chips.

zefir's batch 1 and 2 were ordered on the same day, but have order number #9725 and #9921 and thus potentially more than 100 other orders inbetween.

so it seems, that our chinese friend was yesterday online here on our time wasting board. (after 2 weeks)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=68196

..but no new reaction to any avalon related threat. well, maybe he just hug his mother, or coding instead of explaining shipping delays to hundreds of guys here..

I agree with OP and want to add that bad handling (or unfortunate one) and planing shouldn't effect new customers knowing old ones with their delayed shipments should be handled already and long time ago. That would be stockpiling of problems and possible refunds and for sure is bad business model and practice. Having attitude to do it just because I can just make things worse.

I have no reason to guess why delays are happening, to talk about trains & stuff or I could come up with many Sci-Fi scenarios which would left me only speculating. Only thing I want to know in here is information provided by my supplier. Many if not most of us bought chips in various group buys, so questions to be asked should be asked by Zefir, SebastianJu' and others who organized their group buys. Seen that way, there should be not many support tickets regarding chips shipments delays and questions to answer. For sure I would respond to my customers out of respect if not anything else.

Sales is a contract with privileges, rights and obligations, and we all did our part, but now expected leading times for chips deliveries are not being honored. Of course , Yifu and his team are responsible for this ASIC revolution, which is great thing and we all are surely thankful for that, but they need to improve just few things to make it "good", knowing perfect is now impossible. So being said that I ask our good friend in common interest and our supplier;

Please Yifu let us know what are the plans, and when should we expect our chips ??? Thank you!

Exactly this, the difference between Zefir's batch 1&2 orders is quite large by order number. The anomaly being that the delivery date of batch 1 was approx one month after manufacture (as per the numbers on the chip). I'm not well enough connected to know if that is a reasonable lead time or not but it does seem a little slow to me

The second 90 sample chip delivery i received were from week 21.


Looks like some batch 3 miners are shipped again:

I think its at least a good sign that yifu took a look in the forum. He most probably was informed about the ruckus and wanted to see what its about. I hope it will change something.

Believe it or not with the order numbers between batches mentioned above, and the B3's clearly shipping, I think it's genuinely following a logical path, and the almost 200 orders between batches mentioned are more than likely not active forum members, or at least wish to be overtly known to the rest of the forum, therefore aren't reporting receipt of any bulk chip shipments.

Hang in there, sure within the next month you guys will be in receipt of chips and worrying about assembly! ;)

That does make sense.

What do you guys think is the most logical explanation on the hold up on refunds?
Cold wallet access in a secured location with difficult to access security measures?
(I am envisioning the mission impossible scene with the suspension from the celining!)  8)

Poor management, lack of direction, lack of resources to handle all of the work they committed to performing. Same as with everything else they do. 

"But... but.. we're a small team..." Well, you should have been a bigger team to be able to do the things you promised. It's not like they couldn't have hired more help, they have enough money.

Well, whoever was going to handle the refunds would have had to have access to their main wallet file. Not something you'd want to fob off to some random person on the street. They may have a setup that requires multiple people to authorize a release.

Refund is easiest action to do compare with building&shipping machines&chips.
They should do this as soon as possible because they do not pay any interest to their customs.
One day delay means one day lost to their customers.

That is why don't get suck into these group buy, the middlemen will blame them on the supplier. Don't listen to their sweet talk. Don't buy pre order!!

yes, but buy ASIC HW in preorder is way, how to get miner with possibility of ROI.

Because you do group buy and pre orders that is why you accept this unethical practice. money is your ulterior motive.

@Bitcoinorama... you see how silent it became in here? Yifu only had to ship a couple of miners and all the ruckus is gone again. Even though nothing really is better now. You can calm the masses this way. And thats why i think he did one b3-refund and one chip-batch-shipment.


Its true that one has to take a risk at this point. But i really was of the impression that there will be no risk with avalon chips. I mean they are proven to work, avalon has nothing to build with them, they only have to order, pay, receive and ship. Thats it. And thats different from a miner assembler who will get problems in most cases.

http://youtu.be/K8E_zMLCRNg (http://youtu.be/K8E_zMLCRNg)

Let me paraphrase Yifu's potential response (hey im an optimistic) to this thread.

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/a5dK46r_460sa.gif

And here's another picture from the same zefir's batch #1
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210186.msg2846188#msg2846188 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210186.msg2846188#msg2846188)

Oddly enough, that chip is made on week 26. One would assume one small batch of 10,000 chips would come from the same order from the foundry, but apparently not.

zefir's second batch now is 15 weeks and 1 day old. Thats 5 weeks later than promised! And i found bfl's 100 days chip delivery funny...

My first batch is 12 weeks old tomorrow too. Not as bad as zefir's buyers but come on...

Chip delays are getting ridiculous. The fact that early orders haven't even shipped yet is puzzling. The items are already packaged even. It's becoming clear that they are artificially delaying the chips, but why?

All I can think of is the reseller theory.. A reseller gets the early batches.. the supplier holds back to help the reseller achieve margin - since there's no competition

But.. that would be idiotic.. so it can't be... I mean.. I can't think of any reason that actually benefits them at all, besides their own mining operations - but as a manufacturer they'll never have trouble keeping up with the difficulty anyway... and continued business is surely more profitable than mining?

I mean essentially.. they could've just shipped the chips and concreted themselves a reputation as the go-to guys, and people would've ordered crazy qty's from them even despite other ASIC's becoming more powerful, simply because of security/assurance. But instead, they've delayed and now they're thrown into the "don't buy from" basket along with so many others - the next ASIC company to ship will destroy Avalon permanently.

Not sure why but I have a need to post this picture.

http://www.amtrekker.com/wp-content/uploads/funny-clown-221x300.jpg

Anyone who don't find this post contributing is clearly missing a point.

no good news  ???

Looks like a bunch of people with b3 no PSU Avalon's got tracking today

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=203745.720

While it might not seem like good news for us, it at least shows Avalon is making progress on their backlog of orders, hopefully approaching chip orders

Well, there's still trade-ins and refunds to process, so maybe after few weeks they'll start thinking about another monthly chip shipment.

Should have gone with bitfury  :'(

It seems like Bitsyncom = Yifu is wrapping every single order by hand himself.

Yifu, if you're not able to deliver, don't promise to.
If something went wrong, tell us.

Don't tell us to wait because we have to.
This feels like kindergarden.

Please stand your man, and tell us why we have to wait!

Don't forget YOU are sitting on OUR money.

Why don't we take legal action against Avalon for loss of earnings, misleading customers? They ware happy to take $14 million in preorders, and we paid for chips to be delivered within 9-10 weeks but they are not happy to deliver?  In western countries its called fraud or theft. There must be international trading law that Avalon is braking.

I don't remember reading in the details provided by Avalon that there would be a 10 week lead time, with additional wait time possible if there were delays in shipping generation 2 & 3 Avalon miners... Another ASIC manufacturer getting bogged down in lies and deceit. 10 weeks is 10 weeks and we are now at 15 weeks. The ROI on these is quickly... very quickly slipping away. I sincerely hope that as better manufacturers get into the game, the community will set Yifu aside and snub him on any future offerings. This amateur-hour stuff was passable when there were no other players in the game -- hopefully things are changing.

I still hope Avalon will deliver very soon.
But I guess Yifu doesn't listen to us.

I am really good in imagining things. Things like Yifu sitting with some escort girls in his brand new pool (low tech, fast delivery), smiling, chilling, smoking some good stuff from the 420 medicine shops. Yeah Yifu, you're the man.

Please, stop speculations about the different ways you might have scammed us, get your ass up and talk to your customers.

AVALON Chips TOS
http://store.avalon-asics.com/?page_id=9605

The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale

1.    the only payment accepted is Bitcoin.
2.    these chips will be available until at least end of the year, 2013.
3.    spec and various information is available on the wiki
4.    the chips being sold are packaged and tested.
5.    the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks, OK, this means at least 9, and at most 10 weeks. Do your stuff, we did ours and our chips didn't arrive for a reason you didn't send them.
6.    made to order from TSMC foundry, this also means no refunds.
7.    the order quantity is 10,000 chips.
8.    the chips are identical to those in the Avalon units.
9.    communication protocol, reference board design can be found on github.
10.    everything will be open source from FPGA to PCB design..
11.    30 sample chips will be provided 4 weeks into ordering per 10,000 chips. And how many samples we got?
12.    we do not offer technical support of any kind, this is final.   That is crystal clear, what we want isn't technical support but reply on why deliveries are late and when you plan to ship the chips we paid. Apologies are welcome for braking your own terms of sales in spirit of good business practice and regaining the trust from your customers.
13.    if you do not know what to do with the reference design / packaged chips, please do not purchase. But we do thanks to you and DIY community. Please send our chips and abide by your own rules.

The chip are shitty late, over 5 weeks late is not Acceptable. Next Time Don't Buy Anything from Avalon Group Buy or Directly. The middlemen who already make their money back from selling the chips will not accept responsibility.

+1 
I would even generously allow them an extra week for packaging & shipment prep but not even a peep as to why they are late or when they will be delivered is ridiculous. At least they explained the situation with their production line for B2 & B3, you'd think it would be a no brainer to send a 5 line email explaining things so that people didn't spam his phone & call him all hours of the night

5 weeks is nothing.  Par for the course is 4-5 month wait for batch 2 and 3 Avalons.  What's that you say?  These are chips and shouldn't take as long to ship?  That's what we all said with Batches 2 and 3:  "Oh they already have a supply chain, manufacturing and shipping process in place, they'll ship these out faster than batch 1."  Nope.  You will wait like the rest of us did, and it sucks.  But that's Avalon for you.  Just be patient.

Well, they just got a $200m investment. Hopefully they'll be able to provide compensation for everyone who's orders were delayed ;D

The USD200m story appears to be misreported FUD about Avalon Ventures, which is different from BitSynCom llc (company name is not Avalon)

It's highly unlikely that the WSJ would make that mistake.

Especially since they seem to know about the 20nm TSMC deal.

So Yifu founded a new company, big deal.

Couldn't care less, but where's my chips!?!

link/reference please?

+1
Really, should have bought KnCminer.

If this is true, everyone with chip orders should be first in line and receive a free upgrade to the upcoming 20nm chip quoted in the article. Wouldn't that be nice  ;)

You realize that iam one of those organizers and i opened this thread? But if you say i dont do anything would you please kindly inform me what i can do? I tried calling yifu for days 2-4 times each hour. He wont answer! The same goes for tickets and emails. So what do you think what can i do?


5 weeks is nothing? In one month you lose around 50% of your income you would have mined. See http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ So dont tell me thats nothing. The difficulty now is rising way way faster than it was some months ago. 62% higher difficulty each month.

And regarding the chip delivery. You dont see a difference in miners and chips? Then what problems can you imagine that would delay the chips? We know he ordered 10 weeks ago at the foundry, we know he got already huge amounts of chips but... we dont get them. What problems do you think can appear?

A factor till now no one spoke about is that Yifu wanted to help bitcoin. So he offered the chips, released the specs and many people invested time and money to make a business out of it. See a incomplete list in my signature. They created miners, they made contracts, created shops and now Yifu kills them slowly, their business and their investments. I mean the more he waits the less miners will be bought or created since at some point its not worth anymore to create or buy a miner. The profitability is sinking everyday and so the profit/demand. So all this work involved to help bitcoins now slowly goes to waste only because he dont start shipping the chips.

It's FUD. It was released on a Sunday night with a shill twitter account and a two day old site with a dodgy landing page.

Some journalists have been contacted direct and some have run with what they saw. None did any background as it was late in a Sunday night and they couldn't confirm, but the snowball produced by the hoaxer had gathered enough momentum by that point.

Surprised by the WSJ though. Andrew Laurus does not exist and for the record w.r.t the first article, Kim Dotcom doesn't follow him on the pseudo Twitter account, he follows Kim Dotcom on a shill twitter account that resembles a 15-year olds outbursts...

https://www.twitter.com/frankieterrier

Last time someone woke 'Yifu in the middle of the night' because of FUD he came on this forum to put the record straight. Someone with wayy too much time on their hands is clearly trying to elicit some/any response from Yifu so he steps out into the open at a time he's ignoring a lot of requests to do so...

Please stop flaming the group buyers. without them, there'd be absolutely no opportunity for entry-level investment

If you're against group buys.. go raise the cash to place your own complete order... and if.. in the likely chance that you can't... well.. there's always BFL... think your chances are better over there?

the group buyers gave us an opportunity, it was still always up to the individual to assess the risks of the chips being late or undelivered. And as has been said... it was a proven chip that's been produced before.. it had a definitive deadline... there were no signs that they were about to fall off the planet like this... there were issues with sample chip delivery.. but inevitably they still reached the developers who needed them... so things kept moving forward... willing to bet anyone claiming to have seen this coming would've been the same people complaining that they missed out on all the DIY Asic opportunities had all gone to plan.

/end rant

Really, i don't care about group-buyers making money, or ROI for my chip order.

But i care about the way Yifu/BytSynCom relates to his customers.
It's a shame that when one of the TOS is broken by the company, we don't get an announcement explaining the reasons of the shipping being late, or at least a public excuse.

He could at least say what's going on, just like:

1. We are holding the chips because asicminer gave us money to do this, so he can get enough time to organize his hashrate

2. The chips are at the frontier because chinese government seized all of them

3. Some bankers took all of our chips to make 51% attack so they don't have to make lower fees for transactions

4. All of our chips are broken because Yifu tried to swim in a pool full of them like Scrooge McDuck

5. ALIENS

Good judgement, congrats:
Source:
http://thegenesisblock.com/billionaire-investor-and-samsung-lead-cpu-architect-bet-on-bitcoin-mining/ (http://thegenesisblock.com/billionaire-investor-and-samsung-lead-cpu-architect-bet-on-bitcoin-mining/)
Scroll down a bit to the article about the Avalon.

I can't really be surprised. I mean Yifu, Josh, even Friedcat are producing bitcoin/money-printing machines. Should I be surprised that the temptation of making more BTC overwhelms them? Yes and no. Honestly it just speaks to Friedcat's integrity more than anything (at least so far). Yes their prices are high, but when he promises delivery, it happens. The same cannot be said about BFL and Avalon.
I would agree with the poster who mentioned that it's easy to stand back and tell everyone that took a chance with Avalon chips, that it was easy to predict. Well thanks for advice; after the fact. In fact, I was more worried about choosing the right assembler, more than the chips. Lesson learned, and I anticipate it will continue for the life of ASIC mining.
Before recently, it was CPU or GPU mining. Products made by companies who were not involved in mining. The products were available and you could buy or not buy as you wanted. Enter the world of ASICs and now we have miners built by people who know what they do and the fact that making your own increases your wealth. So IF you sell, you are adding to the difficulty of mining and creating competition for yourself. It will be rare for an ASIC company that delivers straight forward communication and product.

Clearly you dislike reading and gathering information's before you post. Guess who opened this thread.

btw I would like to know how many of us are able to buy 10K of chips for our own needs and where such an action would left you. Probably dreaming how you could get rich only if you had 780 BTC in your wallet.