Bitcoin Forum

Update: Avalon has decided to give groupbuyers and direct purchases a refund. Most of us asked for this to happend. If this poll was a success or not , I will let you decide. I am happy with the outcome of receiving a refund of the GroupBuys I participated in. I have locked the voting and the topic. Thanks for participating and good luck in future BTC ventures.
Dear Avalon,

Most of the group buys arranged on this forum very early are now past due delivery with more than 5 weeks. You said yourself, many times that you really dislike and do not want to do B2C distribution ever again (Avalon Miners Batch 1-3) mainly because of disrespectful and screaming clients.
You then decided to work only with B2B, while taking this route, you made promises and agreements with clients. Many of them where groupbuyers, these groupbuyers in turn, has direct clients like us: B2C. While you are not living up to your agreement with your B2B clients of 9-10 weeks delivery, this in turn puts you in an extreme bad light over all your potential future clients, US the B2C clients, trusting board developers and suppliers such as burnin and BKKcoins to do a better board mounting service than you did (and do not want to ever do again).
I read your post on the main page of your site, telling heartbreaking stories of personal life being infriged upon and that chips are held in customs. This might all be true, but then all we need to look at is your agreements with your B2B clients. You made a promise to deliver prepaid orders, which you did not do. Where in the world does your personal life, or the employees of your company make us risk takers in the sense of you not abiding by your agreements? You as a company need to take some risk in this, your clients shall not bear all the cost in this..
I only see a few options for you to recoup your trust in the market, the vote above will show you which one will be most appreciated by the forum, your B2C clients, who you never want to do business with again..

To anyone else on the forum, shall i change any of the votes? or am i missing something cruicial in my writing that i should change?

Edit1: I changed from 30% to 100% more chips on delivery.

Edit2: This is presumably the address which received all the orders:
https://blockchain.info/address/1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU?offset=0&filter=0
Contains more than 70.000 coins. Should be simple to refund.

The difficulty is rising 75% each month at the moment. 30% more chips wont help in more than one way. 30% more chips does not cover the less mining income next month and these 30% are only the price for the chips. Those are not complete miners. That means you have to pay the assembly too on top. Without rebate.

And next gen? How will the GH priced compared to those chips now? Lets pretend the old chips come mid august. When the 2. gen chips are the half price per GH, but come 2 months later you will have an even worse trade than with the old chips. Because when your miner is ready the difficulty probably is 300-400% higher. Your half price means nothing then anymore. Plus, the price of the chips might half, but the assembly cost not.

So i think its either ship the chips fast or refund in full. I doesnt care when the chips cant be sold anymore, there were plenty of time to order, which obviously happened, there were many chips created already... they only didnt found the way to us. So i dont care if the chips cant be sold anymore.

Edit: The pictures i mean: "Pictures were shot between 2013-07-09 18:09:55 - 19:09:25 with a Samsung GT-I9008 and Canon EOS 350D, and modified with ACD Systems Digital Imaging from 2013-07-09 22:07:04 - 22:58:16." from http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1hzzmo/impressive_pictures_of_a_huge_avalon_chips_order/

http://imgur.com/a/GR0e3

I see your point. However, 30% more chips delivered, within 30 days, is 30% more than 0%.. It is at least some kind of help, to see that they do take some responsibility and try and fix the problem, and not play the blame game. (i changed it to 100% more chips)

And i am curious SebastianJu, you as a groupbuyer (and an active forum member), what would be your vote?

Yes of course it would be better than nothing.

My vote would be to explain the chip boxes (i added the link in my post above now) and where those chips went to, ship the chips fast or refund in full since in some weeks its too late to get the investment back with mining. (And who the heck wants to invests 100€, puts much work into it only to get 100€ out of it at the end?) The difficulty is rising from 62% to 75% per month already. Its possible next time it is 100% a month. See: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

I think yifu had plenty of time and experience to know how long it takes to get the chips. When i see the boxes my guess is that the chips already were created but someone bought them away. Yifu thought he could order new ones fast and now they are overdue...

Ok, a refund would then be the best option. I'm curious, the address you sent the payments too? have they still not touched those coins at all? That would make their lives very easy suddenly, just return the coins into our wallets, and they can go on with their lives just as this did not happened. Announce a product in stock ,and sell out the stock (like production and selling should be)..

The endaddress seems to be untouched:

Batch 1: 1DPoUrzTjcG3nLvpLnSYmy37jPfYjZteFN was moved here: 1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU
Batch 2: 1ECoeDfK79CNm1Mzx6NMMkZrHVocwNg6Sp isnt moved (Yifu forgot he has it? Or bitpay didnt need it till now?)
Batch 3: 13RtKmTPtxFd76rk9CEmaL8uguBxRCF97k same as batch 1
Batch 4: 1EoouiwvV3nPYtrKVkBRJutydc2XSvYEwy same as batch 1
Batch 5: 1LZ9ZDp3LK9A7Ep24arqAMyKcEhFFsC6z1 same as batch 1

Refunds it seems is not really an option (at least according to Yifu a little while ago)...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240189.msg2563031#msg2563031

Might be true if bitinstant is collecting the payments from one customer, in this case bitsyncom, in one address. Then it wouldnt be yifus address and he got paid out from another address.

Refund is the only way to go, sorry Yifu but probably we should start to name you Josh 2.0.

Anyway, I hope you all understand that we'll never ever see a refund? He'll just ship the chips in a few months when they will be worth nothing more than a bunch of plastic and silicon in a nice QFN package...

Yes, if we B2C clients does not speak up, we will allow him to do whatever he feels like. He should take part of these losses, return the group buys to save his reputation in the forums and start selling when he has stock. I'm sure new groupbuys will pop up immediately if he has stock.. I might even buy again..

https://sites.google.com/site/boycotavalon/ <--- Add this to your signature so that we can start getting a grassroots movement and FORCE action from Avalon. Don't wait for the polls to close. Push them to accept refunds asap. Do not wait for more promises they have already broken the contract.

No one should be saying if we get a refund we will buy Avalon again.

Fuck that. He is in breach of contract. He has to compensate everyone who has chips and wants a refund. Until that happens we need to BOYCOTT his company full stop. No one is going to be getting chips on time. Even those who ordered in June and July as they should have already received their developer chips. This guy is looking at GEN2 already he doesn't really want to look at GEN1 anymore but you know what we need to hold his feet to the fire now on these. Boycotting Gen2 and 3 and 4 is the right solution given the lack of information from Avalon. It is time they are held to account.


30 days? WTF are you smoking? Seriously. They are already 37 days behind on some of the orders give them another 30? Fuck me. How about you just let then ship whenever they want? The deal was 9 - 10 weeks. If they failed to do that they are in breach of contract. We need refunds. Full stop. If we don't get refunds we boycott them as hard and vigorously as we can so that we will seriously disrupt the GEN2 chip sales and hurt them on the bottom line and we do that until we are all adequately compensated. Anything less and you are being suicidal.


http://support.avalon-asic.com/ <--- START A REFUND TICKET here.

Does it really matter? If Avalon wants to stay in the business, to save face, i think they have to refund the orders past due 4 weeks?
What does your groupbuy clients say? Send them to the poll? With that, we will know what the B2C people thinks at least?
It seems like not many other group buy arrangers really speak up.. Which is sad, they represent a big amount of orders and "say"..

Ship the chips within 2 weeks (real time, not BFL time).

Refund 50% to make up for lost ROI.


This way miners get their chips and might still make ROI, the assemblers didn't risk their livelihood for nothing AND Avalon can save their face and still make a shitload of money (because I honestly don't want to think about the margin on those chips).

Agreed, but then better add 100% of the chips you ordered to the delivery? that way you will make back your money, and Avalon will only "make less margin" and not have to refund anyone..
For the board mounting services, it would be the same, if Gen2 chips come out in October, the boards will be the same from what i read? I mean only the chips will be faster, but using the same connection specs.

This was my first thought as well,but there's several problems with that.

1) I doubt that Avalon has an additional 100% of chips just lying around. Besides, they already had problems with customs as is ::)
2) Double the chips will cut more into your ROI than half the price. Double the chips means also more hashrate getting online. We'd just fuck ourselves by doing that.
3) You still have to assemble the chips. Twice the chips => Twice the assembling cost and twice the time.

Such refund ticket, is for B2B clients such as SebastianJu, SteamBoat & Zefir. So far only SebastianJu seems to speak up.
I know the others are not sitting happily in their boats, but they should be the ones asking for our refund..

Our group put in a refund ticket 6 days ago. No reply.

wow.. i hope all groupbuys does it. SebastianJu?

So we all should forget about klondikes and just keep buying eruptors until the pie in the sky stuff coming maybe by end of year arrives???

I didn't even expect to have boards yet anyway, my earliest orders were steamboat batch three, is that batch even late yet? Seems to me its chips were not expected yet anyway so there is still time for them to arrive within the expected timeframe...

-MarkM-

Sadly you are wrong..
"SteamBoat Batch 3: Order #10325, Purchase date May 22,2013. Expected delivery date mid/late July. "
Going on 2 weeks on batch 3. For sure, should be able a refund on all batches SteamBoat made.

And about eruptors, yes, keep buying them, but keep in mind that after Wednesday, the difficulty should land at minimum 45, expected 47. That means, a price at around $25 should maybe make you some of the money back, pending on next update of difficulty.. I would buy some if they were at $15, where some roi could potentially happend. I mean, i dont even expect the price of the coins to stay, with more coins coming to the market, and miners needing to sell immediately to get roi back. There has to be more people fleeing to sell, than fleeing to buy in a short period of time.

I hope everyone gets refunded ... even better would be for yifu to show how much he cares about the btc community and to use all those extra chips to create k1's and to sell them at cost to people interested in entering into the mining world.
truth is 80000 k1's in 80000 new peoples hands would do more for the price of btc then any of these start up asic communities will ever do

seriously? more chips mined equals higher btc price?
and avalon has their own boards. k1 are open source project. (avalons boards are also open source).

no what i meant was the more people there are mining, the more interest there is in bitcoins, the higher the price of bitcoins
basically sell  block erupters that will have almost no roi to people just opening up wallets to strengthen the network as well as get more people interested in btc.....

or better yet give them to people in third world countries with computer access and call it a donation for non profit

Avalon needs to provide proper information on the chips and give refunds to the customers, and until they do, we are going to boycott and start legal actions. That is not in the poll but that is what group buy leaders need to do together. We can force Avalon on this because they are in breach of contract. There are no valid excuses at this point the only solution is to provide proper compensation and information in a timely fashion which means right NOW.

+1 Bicknellski

more chips doesn't equal more people mining. people have yet to fully grasp the concept of cryptocurrencies, let alone the concept of mining.

Yes agree. This information should have come halfway through the ten weeks delivery time. NOT five weeks AFTER delivery due date! Then we could have decided then what to do, stay on or ask for refund..

Agree Bicknellski. I have posted a link to this topic in the TerraHash thread. Please make a post over there. There were tons of orders placed but I don't hear anything from anyone.

This includes the official Chinese customs dockets detailing the hold up in customs. Which obviously, if true, they have in their possession.

He has handed over the western buyers batch to the Wo shing wo.
he is now in a 2nd production run which will deliver 6 weeks late, minimum.
1 shipment was made to Zefir to pacify the western community.
he has conned us all, refund now

Bitsyncom should give their customers coupons for late deliveries. 

Coupon (in bitcoins) must be based on bitcoins lost from the time they promised delivery to the actual delivery date.

Coupons can be used for future purchases ie avalon v 2.

That would be the smart move. Coupons are a good way to offer a price reduction while making sure you have return customers (without sacrificing your capacity to create new products).

This would also be beneficial to the grassroots ASICs "industry", built by all those who started their own business around the Avalons chips. It should guarantee them more work in the future and a way to recoup their investments. I'd be pretty disappointed if that community tanked because of Avalon.

Not until its lost. The chips are still getting roi so most of the members dont want a refund. This might change with time of course. But fighting yifu now only might lead to him blocking even more. Forcing him to deliver is ok, but pure hate, fighting wont lead to the best results i think.
Of course, if he delays the chips so far that the wont ROI and if he dont want to give refund i will have to sue him.

With the number of ppl involved, that's probably cause for a class action.

Sorry,

But a failure to deliver on time. Not provide proper information demands refunds. As for Yifu blocking the chips even further at this point is meaningless we need to simply boycott Avalon and make sure we disrupt his Gen2 to Gen4 sales here in this community as much as possible. We have a breach of contract and that must be rectified now SebJu asking for coupons, waiting for him to deliver another 1 to 2 weeks later is not the terms and conditions we agreed to as chip buyers. It was 4 weeks for developer chips and 9 to 10 weeks for the main orders. Avalon failed to deliver. I do not see how politely accepting compromises for such a failure is in anyone's best interest especially the community. We all need to stop being weak and band together and cause Avalon some pain back where it counts Gen2 sales. BOYCOTT until we are all properly compensated. Refunds must be given if asked that is LEGALLY what we are entitled to given the failure to deliver the product. We will be emailing all the interested group buy owners soon to start legal action against Yifu and Avalon.

Least of his problems if he's purposefully delayed anything for his own financial gain, now the US has recognised Bitcoin as a currency and he's potentially been directly manipulating it. That's a serious allegation.

I hear you but, just think of those (not me) who have invested in the 100K+ USD range on equipment (not even on the ASIC chips) that they will probably have to scrap if they get a refund and no chips. Not to mention the depreciation of the BTC in USD terms (up to 50%).

I seriously don't think a refund is the best option, but if you think it's what's best for you, I hope Avalon will make that an option too.

That is exactly why the groupbuyers and hosting investors should ask for a refund/compensation. Initiate the refund, offer new price when they have stock, and give groupbuyers priority to get back in line.
Or are you suggesting that risking getting the chips when they are worthless, is actually what they want?
If i'd invested 100k in hardware, i'd rather get back something of the additional chip investment..
If they do a refund then, they would redeem themselves and hosting investors can purchase gen 2 chips to put on the boards, since they say that hardware designs wont change (or very little).

It depends what is cheaper for you.

For me, getting the chips in August/September is the cheapest, as the price difference from a full refund and having the chips mine away is about 20%. That means that 80% of my investment would still be tied up waiting for boards ready for the Gen2 chips.

I don't suppose the new Gen2 chips will mine directly on the boards, so, even if things go super smoothly and there is no delay in procurement for the changed parts for the PCBs, I don't expect anything working on Gen2 before November 1st.

Normally, now would be the time to cut your losses and reinvest in something more profitable, but 20% is not a big enough difference, and given all other associated costs, it would actually be more costly for me to not go forward with this.

But you should definitely re-evaluate your options.

I think the survey should have the selection:
  "deliver as soon as possible"

They should just stick the chips where the sun doesn't shine at this point in time. 
Obviously the little boy has plenty of time to do his  marketing bidding whenever
necessary.  Well, hopefully kharma will take care of this little crook.  Class action
suit is the only correct action at this point.

This will definitely be going to a court at some point but make sure to back that up with an Avalon product Boycott. Just don't buy from them again. Bury em now before they pull this crap again.

I will never ever do business with Avalon, I do not care what they produce.

+1

Yes at this stage, coupons wont do any good on a corporation that has already lost our trust.
Refund 30-40% btc to all groupbuyers and we can use those funds towards a trusted source.

funds are now here and are moving out fast - http://blockchain.info/address/1JrwWrt3TYUzMYFEBLX5hTo1zFsEY6tWZN

Already voted. Good luck.

Only to let you know. Out of 56000 chips in my groupbuy till now 792 chips are kept and 9995 refund. The rest havent given me their wish yet. 792 to 9995 is 7.34% to 92.66%. So at the moment most want a refund. Its a bit different when it comes to persons since the one that want to keep mostly only have a couple chips.

thanks sebastian for update.
we all did it! i believe the latest scam postings on bitsyncoms profile did help alot and our constant pushing.
well done people.
now what to buy?

Nothing. At the moment there is no Hardware that will ROI with a diffi rising 110% per 30 days and not only rising exponentially but the percent rise is rising exponentially too. Ill keep out of hardware for sure.

Buy BTC... best bet... there seems to be upward pressure on price again. Could we see $233 topped in a short time?

Why on earth does the most popular choice include the mention of potentially repurchasing/reinvesting again in future?

You were wantonly screwed. This was done on purpose. F*ck in-stock.

Are you lot a bunch of sadomasochists??

Mental.

Or buy btc and invest it somewhere in a security with stable price or even rising. If it has dividends on top its the best you can do. Of course chosing securities has to be learned first.

It says "I might", it's a way of trying to be polite but still get the refund (and then never invest in avalon again)

I don't think the refunds have been offered because people were being polite. Unfortunately polite emails and questions were ignored.

Never invest again... sounds like the right phrase to tag on to that sentence.

Which can be each investors further decision ongoing from this stage.. We got what we wanted didn't we?

No some of us are not getting what we wanted or what was promised and I am not talking a pound of flesh here just some basic communication and refunds for those who have asked for them. I could have waited 1 day, 1 week or more but given there was zero communication for over 5 to 6 weeks I don't think anyone has received what we wanted we certainly had to make a decision about production without any information on our order availability given the months, earlier orders had to wait, we needed protect our customers and pulled the plug, our call definitely but lack of communication led to that decision directly and it is clear this company can't communicate effectively to their customers.

Our group has been waiting now 11 weeks for our chips. No chips, no emails, no refund, no official replies to our communication at all since July 28th when we started asking for information. When you pay 70K to 80K for something you expect a little communication right? There are others in the same boat some even later that probably won't see chips that have been likely sold out from under them to someone else just like everyone else. Buying 10 weeks lead time is our failure. Failing to deliver anything on time is his. Until everyone has their money or chips and has been properly compensated you are right that is when we can review the idea of buying from him. Given this fiasco unless he can fix the customer service end I'd recommend people steer clear. So many more companies are making the effort to do proper customer service so that decision whether or not to buy Avalon will be easier since it just makes sense to buy from people that provide exactly what they promise, on time and to top it off they are polite and communicate with their customers. Not very hard to do actually especially if you are being truthful.

Yes i see what you mean. Getting chips delivered on time, was what we all wanted. But what we definetly didnt want was getting chips after delivery time, and without compensation. I do believe that our grouped efforts (the last spamming his trust feed) made him realise the seriousness of his actions.
So in the rearview mirror, getting the refunds is definetly the best option he has given us now. I believe sebastianju has been refunded half of his batches already, yours has not still been refunded?