Bitcoin Forum

few months ago I started a topic about "ASICs are over priced", and allot of people shitted on me and told me to shut up, and ASICs are not expensive and I just cannot afford them, I felt dispointed at the time because I've thought that the Bitcoin spirit was bigger than that and some guys manipulating the community.    

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.0

well look, most ASIC vendors are playing you, and I am so happy that I couldn't afford to buy one.  What you gonna do about it? still continue to pre-order  and lick their ass, even when they take your investment and doesn't give a f*** about your concerns.


I work in a big company where we are one of the best in what we do, and customer satisfaction is our capital.   think about this very well  

Totally agree with you, did then, did now.

Pricing affects the desire to recoup NRE and have sufficient means of production, distribution, marketing and customer service as well as the standard business requirements. Beyond that it is about making a profit.

+1, totally agree. I already sold everything except Jupiter preorder, because KNC still seems legit in my eyes. Otherwise, you are absolutely right.

LOL? All you said was block erupters and usbs are overpriced... WE KNOW.

yes I remember, you were one a the few who agreed with me. but I know that I will get the same shit all over again.

I say this today as reminder for people, If we do not value our selves, these companies wont value us as customers.

yes and they are still overpriced, but people still buy them right..... you get it ?

I can't take anyone on this forum seriously if:

A) They have that many spelling/grammar errors while trying to sound intelligent, and
B) Whine and complain and take everything personally. This is the internet: no one gives two shits about your opinion.

thank you, your opinion means so much to me as well  ;)

yeah, you are completely correct mmitech. Ive been stating nearly the same thing in several IRC chats for months now.

ASIC suppliers are the only ones who are doing the real profit in the bitcoin "ASIC ERA"

They know that if price of BTC is up & diff is reasonably low comparably, people will be willing to shovel tons of money into an ASIC so the suppliers just pin a high pricetag on them, making bank on the customer.
They know that if price of BTC is down & diff is still pretty high, the demand for hardware drops significantly and therefore the suppliers will drop price accordingly but still make a decent profit off customer.

The perfect example of this for all to see in clear daylight is bitfury USA's price structure on their preorders. The AUG preorders costing 2.5x more than OCT preorders ... those ASICs still cost them the same to make no matter if AUG or OCT...so they are just ripping the fuckall off the customer and laughing at the arms race the miners are creating for themselves against diff.

This is the downside of having bitcoin-only ASIC suppliers who have no other business. They change price based on demand. So not only do you have the miners in competition w/ each other based on a fixed price for hardware no matter the diff / price (like GPU's) ... now you have the companies who supply the hardware in competition w/ all sectors of the ASIC era.

Thats why I liked GPU's... AMD didnt give a fuck about bitcoin , hence they didnt price there GPU's according to the demand in bitcoin mining. So, every miner had equal chance in GPU era. In ASIC era, it all depends on the customer whos willing to risk the most to come out on top, by giving a shit ton of money to ASIC suppliers which is an unfair advantage to hobby miners.

In the end what this really comes down too is ASIC suppliers pricing future hardware so close to possible profits, that miners wont actually make any profit because they will simply be saving up a stack of BTC w/ current hardware just to afford the next gen ASIC hardware... and this will simply keep happening over and over. Only when one decides to stop mining can they take their BTC & cashout.

I look at what my avy batch 2 makes....basically to afford any hardware at this point in time, I would have to cash out any profit my avy made & thensome for a faster hasher that will suffer the same fate.
In the end it really sucks for us miners when the suppliers will price stuff exactly in this manner.

They know what to charge to make bank off us and keep the illusion alive that we have a chance of making profit =P ... when all we are doing is saving up to buy yet again more hardware from the suppliers...generation after generation.

+1

and these companies still tells you  "we are doing it to help secure the network" yes right more like "to fill your pockets"

And did I buy them to mine? No. I mined 12 btc per blade and sold them above cost price. Fuck you and your simplistic brain, you'd evaporate in my presence.

LMFAO, I would not be surprised in the slightest to find you absolutely repulse people in the real world.  How's MIT going?  Must be a tough commute going between campus and your parent's basement in the UK.  Glad to hear you openly telling the world how you ripped people off and are proud of it.

I remember you https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2343065#msg2343065

but you still beg for BTC

see the deference between us, I am a man of logic... and I do not beg for money I work hard to earn it. and I want to wisely invest it  ;)

No one is forcing you to buy them.  If they're overpriced don't buy any, and they will have to lower the price to sell them.

Uh, everybody didn't "laugh" at you. You didn't say that ASIC companies were just manipulating everybody. You made very specific claims about the blades, and most people agreed with you, but tried to help you understand that this is market forces at work, not companies manipulating people:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222770.msg2343075#msg2343075

Now you want to come back and prop yourself up as some sort of prophet, because you complained about the pricing of one specific product, and now think that you can retroactively decide that it was a prophecy about all ASIC companies?

+1

Ding ding ding!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMoAhjA9dCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMoAhjA9dCE)

- just to point out something. I can "pre-order" this right moment a hardware at these prices now, and I could "pre-order" a hardware even than, and even when I didn't have enough funds, I could work something out somehow, If it just seemed logical and reasonable. but it didn't that time and still don't .
- and yes this is what I am trying to say here, if we didn't have these fools doing the rally "who will get their asic first" and threw a shit load of money, no matter how these vendors disrespect them and shit on them and play them around, they still go and "pre-order" than beg and lick their ass as a bonus.

this is why the ASICs are over priced, but again you are still not getting it right ?  

I'm new to ASIC BTC mining but thanks to arbitrage, and even with a couple of rookie moves, and even w/ most of my ordered equipment still "processing", in a little over a month from my first purchase, I already made ROI!  ;D

It may be outside the bell curve but it happened for me after I did some research & made some acquisitions. Some people are just willing to take more risks but I accept the risks & am now in a position to buy a couple of Blades with house money that *will* ship in late Aug. or early Sept. or whatever dark horse appears in the next week or so.

I may re-sell them but at least I'll have hardware in-hand relatively efficiently hashing away at the rate of 20-40 GPUs.

Disclaimer: AM shareholder because in a gold rush, shovel makers & their concomitant suppliers (hello, Levis jeans!) are the ones that reliably make ROI. Plus, I feel like investing in a mining pool helps protect against hardware depreciation and inevitable hashing power loss thru 25% automatic hardware reinvestment.

Your point remains moot. You're living in a fantasy world. Not only were you not laughed at at the time, but nothing has changed to offer you any sort of vindication. The post that I made in your original thread remains just as relevant as it was at the time. If you don't have the money to invest, the potential ROI remains irrelevant.

If you do have the money to invest, you have to be smart about where you invest it. And, as with any investment, it's a risk, so you need to learn how to evaluate that, and make sure not to put all your eggs into one basket, or to invest in such a way that it would ruin you if things don't work out.

With your juvenile 'understanding' of these concepts, I feel that I should advise you that Bitcoin probably isn't your 'game'.

I'm envisioning you more as the 'fry cook' type. ;)

I will really avoid going deeper on this one, you maybe know me but you do not know who I am, I was involved in many investment and projects, many were risky, and we had to decide if it was worth it, but we made the right choice almost always.
anyway to make a point here I will copy what gentarkin said, try to read it and think deeply about what he was trying to say, I am thinking the same way he does and have to agree with him

And where does it say I'm begging, so fucking fail. It is a public address listed to be public, all my BUSINESS activity is paying for college. Not everyone has such a feeble mindset to beg.

I have a 1M business but any way here is my address I need to pay for college, what do you call that ?

New candidate quote for sig.  ;D


Lol this ended the thread for me. /interest

I wonder if anyone went into ASIC manufacturing/sales thinking it was a long-term investment. I mean... after the first batches, either BTC price needs to go through the roof, or the components need to be immediately available for shipping and at least 5x as powerful at the same price (or some lesser combination of the two).

Maybe mining was just a diving board for them?

Terrahash.

DX lg consumes ~1.28KW w/10 modules. 180GH/s = ~$237/d profits (~$242/d rev, ~$4.61/d power cost) @ $.15/KWh and $100/BTC, IF difficulty remains constant at its current (~37M). However, we know difficulty's increasing ~40% every two weeks. So, if you ordered today and it arrives at next difficulty change in a few days and it's another 40% increase, you're looking @ ~$140/d profits (~$145/d rev, $4.61/d power cost). At the next difficulty change (when you're more likely to get a unit), ~$82/d profit (~$87/d rev, $4.61/d power cost). So multiply that by 14 for ~$1218. At next difficulty change, look for ~$44/d profit (49-4.6). *14 for ~$616. At next diff change, profit ~$25/d (29.5-4.6). *14=$350. And it keeps dwindling from there -- let's say there's another $800 total profit left in its lifetime. 1218+616+350+800=$2984 mining profit in its lifetime. $10500-$2984=bad investment. This doesn't factor in diff changes occurring in less than 14D due to the rapidly increasing hashpower on the network -- it's more like 12D at current pace instead of the targeted 14D, which just means the potential earnings will deteriorate that much faster.

With a 2-4 week lead-in assuming they have chips (I have no idea, I stayed away from ASICs), there's virtually 0% chance of recovering investment without the price of Bitcoin soaring - but if you're factoring in a price increase, you may's well just buy the coins straight.

(Or I screwed up on the maffs, or there's a more cost-efficient or power-efficient model than the first one I clicked on - very possible. This also changes a slight bit if you have free or near-free electricity, but it's still almost as certain the initial investment never pays itself off, while you're taking on quite a bit third-party risk + time & effort.)

ETA: fixed all my screw-ups, I think. :)

What exactly is the purpose of all this nonsense?  To prove to everyone you were right about something?  Does this give you some kind of satisfaction in your life that cannot be obtained through normal methods?  If not, is your righteousness supposed to help others in some way now?  If so, how?  And if not, I ask you again, what is the purpose of this entire thread?

I cant agree with you anymore !!!

That is for sure!!! it goes too far.

Do you know how much a masters in Eng and a world class MBA costs?


The title sounds like he is crying. QQ.

you my friend are full of shit.

the point of this thread is I still cant believe the shit and humiliation are people willing to take just to have the chance to get in this rally, in the other hand we forget that these companies would treat us different if we valued our selves.

you put a Pre-order and your faith and money (without your pre-order they cant do shit), then they delay, lie, and treat you us shit like they are doing everyone a favor.

and when I try to talk about it about it everyone comes here and start trolling me, you are the one who has been trolled.

when you get your hardware (if you get it) you will mine with it to prepare to buy the next generation, you will never make a profit this way, because there will be always a newer tech and you will have to upgrade to it .

tldr: qq why does no one on the internets care what I think boohoo

+1

+1 for the most part.  But I have to say when I think of the economics of how a company can possibly sell a money printing device, I become unsure of any convictions I momentarily have.

It's quite clear the ASIC manufacturers price their devices according to the real market price...the price people will pay, and not at all based on the unit cost.  And they drop their prices according to the ship date.

Further complicating this is that the price of their product drops as they sell more of their product.  Also that they could not possibly sell the product for too little at a given time because...why not just mine in that case?  

Anyway it would be short sighted to accept any analysis without considering all of the little feedback systems involved in this type of economy, which is unlike anything I know of or have thought about before.  It's easy to say the ASIC manufacturers are big and bad for pricing how they do...but I'm not sure its possible for the companies to do things any other way.

Really sucks how we've gone through most of 2013 and most people still don't have ASIC aside from ASICMiner's overpriced USB sticks.  A few centralized hands have been grabbing up most of the BTC this year.  Sad.

o the love in this thread.

BitCoin is a cryptocurrency designed around people getting fleeced for hardware and bitching on forums. :)

Seriously, people take stuff way too personally on forums and need to grow up.  I had an issue with someone, I partially tarnished the name of one of my business partners (since he receives all our hardware), I resolved the issue privately and removed my overreactions from the forum.  If the height of BTC today is threads like this we're all fucked. :D

P4man said 2 years ago that no one except the vendors and some early adopters would make a profit out of ASIC.

Yet people are still placing orders for the old AM blades that are pretty much guaranteed to not pay for themselves.  What a racket.

I was talking to a friend today about this, each time I see an ASIC, I always say It could be a good deal if you get it for the 1/3 of the original price, allot of people here are educated but always fail to calculate  ROI  and the profit after  ROI, even when they do know that they will never make a ROI, they still put so much faith in these vendors, just hoping that the network charts will freeze so they can make some profit.


If people used common sense, these vendors would begs us to buy from them not the other way.

I think ASICMINER is at least helping (slowly) put people in check with what they are selling their gear for..  people wanting gold bars for BFL equipment on hand is nuts..

keep prices in check?! your kidding right. They are the ones selling hardware way overpriced as well, just so they can easily keep adding to their network hashrate. Its the perfect model and unfortunate. Have people fund your operation up front, hold a huge portion of the network hashrate then keep the illusion of hope for miners by releasing overpriced hardware to them... just to keep funding their own operation in keeping 1/3rd the network hashrate. Its like saying "yeah Ill pay you to ensure that I will never make ROI... take my money!" Wish people would wake up and stop fueling the giant.

Here's the thing that makes me laugh.  A while back, AM USB's are 2BTC.  Then 1BTC.  Then .55BTC.  Then .32BTC.  Let's say the cost for AM is around $10.  They've been capitalist-robbing folks with their markup because they were the only shipping vendor, meaning they were able to do this.  This is how business is traditionally run, but people continually fool themselves into their purchases thinking it is a good value.

I want a new car because it is new, but it loses X% value the moment you roll it off the lot.  You order a BE USB today, gets delivered shortly before the next dif increase, by the time you're running on a full diff change the price dropped again.  K1 Nano w/ Avalon chips was exciting... until the price vs. availability question comes into play, and especially with Avalon delays and AM price drops there is no hope of them getting off the ground.  

Sadly, Butterfly Labs is the story of Bitcoin today.  Lofty aspirations, continual delays, poor customer service, wacky cast of characters, and by the time most of their customers have hardware in-hand it'll be a tough bet if they will pay themselves off.  Still, we are an industry of "pre-orders".  Still, we fund companies who mutually assure that the hardware they deliver will never live up to the dream.  

Yes the explanation "It is a huge up-front cost, nobody will fund that themselves in such a risky business" holds a lot of truth, but why?  People are banking off of mining hardware, if someone offered hardware tomorrow that shipped next week the community would dive headfirst into it as long as a few hero/senior members could verify units worked.  This would be the Hashfast sponsor "people will cancel their pre-orders" moment.  As-is, people can cancel pre-orders for pre-orders, hoping that people with a refund policy actually refund, and hoping their newest pre-order delivers when it will still make some cash back.  It's like the abused wife who keeps saying her husband really has good intentions and only takes advantage of her because he loves her.

Venture cash is out there, internet startups doing basically nothing can get enough funding to run the whole ASIC design/development/testing/fabrication process.  But nobody is doing it. That doesn't speak well long-term for Bitcoin as we know it today.  Here's the other problem - the only people who really give a damn about Bitcoin today are traders, miners, optimistic geeks, and manufacturers.  Mining will become a zero sum game sooner than anyone is willing to admit, so the primary reason for adoption (profit) goes away.  This means the network is only running and growing because people can continue to profit from it.  When that goes away...

What I wish would happen ... would be an honest ASIC supplier who prices according to their costs and comes out and says "ok, this is our price no matter the diff, its x% above our cost to make"
Cost per piece w/ initial cost of mask & R&D .. prorated over every piece. I dont know w/e you guys get my point.
An honest fucking ASIC supplier would be nice.

Im willin to bet bitfury initial costs were paid for in the 100th machine. Its insane for them to charge 25k on a 400GH machine for "the rest of us miners" ... that damn thing probably cost like 1000$ .. hell probably not even that.

Bitcoin mining landscape will eventually look just like the banking industry. A select few mining corps control significant hashing power and can decide to do w/e they want with it. I hate the thought of centralized mining...but thats where its headed. Its not the ASICs thats what to blame. Its the suppliers who are at fault because they werent willing to keep the ASICs available to everyone(because of insanely high up front cost requirements as I mentioned in my first post in this topic)

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h428/keithh409/wtf-cookies-1_zps4eb896ff.gif (http://s1109.photobucket.com/user/keithh409/media/wtf-cookies-1_zps4eb896ff.gif.html)

That is true, but you do have to remember ... that really will never go away. Bitcoin is interesting because no matter the price, theres always potential to make profit from mining and thats what keeps people in the game... but, as I explained previously, in the ASIC era, its an illusion, because many havent realized yet that what you make today in profit from ASICs will need to be saved to buy tomorrows ASICs.
When profits diminish people stop mining, diff drops & at some point settles to where it becomes profitable again, then thats when you have a huge surge of people getting back into mining.
Its kinda cool how that aspect works.... its designed perfectly to work w/ human greed and its that in of itself which keeps demand for mining alive over long period of time.

For some reason I love this. :)

But it is moving towards the above-mentioned centralization.  Right now the hobbyist can only afford to buy hardware they will never see a return on (so keeping vendors and resellers in business, which does nothing for Bitcoin) while the folks in the business for a while have made enough to justify purchasing (or I'll say 'betting') on new hardware.  The diff will raise to a point that only buying fuck-off expensive hardware or shares in a central mining pool will make sense if you want to "make money" from Bitcoin. 

The next gen of hardware will be worse.  The 'community' will be unable to afford it.  Most of the 'community' will be unable to run it for noise/heat/power reasons. 

Bitcoin doesn't have an answer to this, a market niche that it fills so perfectly that without all the mining hype it survives.  Yeah, it may be another long slide down in price as centralization happens, opening up a small door for another round of early adoption then screw everyone late through the door.  But that doesn't make BTC a winning proposition.

Thus far, our ASIC makers were noobs & amateurs.  Each and every one got lost in the details -- fumbling the design & manufacture of ASICs.  Today's ASIC leaders have built upon the flimsy fundaments of their literal-minded predecessors, obsolescing tangible touchstones.

New, virtual ASICs for virtual currencies are here.  No more will the virtual miner be burdened with actual profits on his virtual currency!  Modern virtual corporations, virtually traded on virtual exchanges, are virtually free to do virtually whateverthefuq they virtually want.  
Am i speaking to the man of the house?  How many PH/sec should i sign you up for?

+1

+1

they told me that If I can't afford an asic it doesn't mean that is expensive, I said If you can pay 5000-25000$ for it that doesn't mean it is cheap.

I was looking in the bottom of things, I work in production, we could do the same thing , but our initial profit never goes more than 25%, our customers have the first and the last word, simply because they are the only ones who matters, if we lose them we lose our business.

and yes I am happy that I am not the only one who thinks this way. this is why I started this thread .

Well apparently xcrowd claims to have, but wants you to tie your funds up unnecessarily in an escrow whilst they make their products. If they have sought VC then there is no need for this, they apparently just want to stop your from buying elsewhere. They could in complete honesty sell to you in hand if they had secure such funds. This is pre-ordering, but being told you are not preordering. Fact is it's your choice where you spend your money, but you could also wait and see what becomes available as it's proven, which is all that matters now. People are just fed up with being dicked around, and it's not the problem with ASICs, or the technology, or Bitcoin, but human nature, laziness and greed, with a dash of incompetence, lack of experience in running companies and especially scaling start-ups.

Choose your company wisely when pre-ordering you need both design talent and business experience as well as honesty and integrity.

Next up will be the government or governments coming into these mining corps, demanding or bribing them into ownership and next thing we know.... we got the government once again controlling the financial sector from within =P

That would be hilarious & sad at the same fucking time. We know the true colors of said government...but when the above happens, we realize the true colors of the mining corps.
Like we already dont =P but just shows how fucking evil they are. They dont care about crypto-currency, they just wanna make a shit ton of money & they wouldnt care to sell out of the offering was good enough. Fucking pisses me off, this is why I want mining to remain in garages for hobbyists. Its much more difficult for the government to convince hundreds of thousands of garage miners to sell out then it is for a single mining corp that holds tons of hashrate.

Truth of the matter is, centralized mining is just bad on all fronts for a "decentralized currency" .. unfortunately its inevitable =(
And whos to fucking blame? once again... the ASIC suppliers and their insane price gouging tactics.

I realise I'll be told I'm this, that or the other, but from what I saw when I visited KnC is they actually give a shit about a deal where everybody wins and cryptocurrencies gain momentum. If you don't want to believe, and at the end of the day actions speak louder than words, just keep an eye on them. It's part of the reason they've sponsored that young couple making the 'Life on Bitcoin' film, because they understand mining is only part of what makes cryptocurrencies real, the other side is the battle for public adoption, creating liquidity in the BTC market and getting merchants to accept and people to spend the coins. Their initial pricing has always had to cover NRE, then they can give people a better deal.

That said they also definitely said they for see mining eventually moving out of the garage and into the datacentres as people won't want a magic box collecting dust in their room when it can be housed with 24/7 uptime. I wanted to disagree with that, but it's inevitable unless households can power that much equipment...

Come on.  Every efing ASIC company brays about their love for the solo miner, and, as soon as they can, makes a deal with a megaminer who's guaranteed to kill hobbyshoppers.  Wake up.  I have nothing against greed, but let's at least call it by name, instead of passing it off as "ah's securin' da networkz!!."

As soon as the profit is too obvious (like January's Avalon launch and the price rally afterwards), people who have no idea about bitcoin would rush into the mining game

Usually these speculators will leave bitcoin once they found the mining is also highly risky, actually the risk of mining equipment investment has become so huge that it is simply better to purchase coins directly. I read somewhere that there was a chinese established a mining farm with many GPU rigs in 2011 summer, and he sold everything when price crashed that autumn

This time it will be different, given past history of 2011 crash and 2013 rally, these miners will keep mining at whatever the cost, and waiting for a future rally to bring their investment back

This is positive, the cheapest way to get coin will be purchasing, just like gold investment, most of the people will not try to establish a mining company to mine gold, and mining companies' profit is really thin

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut they are all still selling the impossible dream.  Avalon, AM, BFL, KNC, BitFury, HashFast, xCrowd, CoinTerra, LabCoin, and who knows who in the shadows are all delivering hardware around the same timeframe.  Everyone says "Look at this price for this rate, it's a sure win!" but nobody will admit to the fact that if the rate today is, say, 350TH, but each player above adds another 350TH in Oct-Dec of this year, even if half deliver, that brings us to a whopping 2,100TH by Jan 1, 2014.  Could be more, probably will be.  A 20% diff increase is nothing compared to what should happen if these companies all deliver.  

And at the end of the day, the BTC community will have handed over a lump of cash to these manufacturers, and even if they have the best intentions (KNC) we know there are people and companies who are more than happy to pounce on this next few months, make a killing, and leave just as quickly as they arrived with everyone sitting on expensive cup warmers.

I think mining will mostly become distributed because of electricity and heat concerns, ASICminer's operation can not scale just because of these

A future with multiple mining companies each have their nuclear power plant in antarctica... how to prevent bitcoin from causing global warming??  ;D ;D ;D

Lol, but seriously Bitcoin still uses the tiniest amount of power in relation to fiat and payment processing with all the intermediaries concerned. But I want to see more renewables being used to power Bitcoin!

We're not talking aluminum smelters here, and mining certainly scales up well.  If it doesn't make economic sense to mine commercially, how would hobby mining make sense?  Describe a scenario where a small miner makes a profit where large one loses money.

I was gonna say the same thing. When you think about the fiat infrastructure combined...uses a shit ton more power than bitcoin will for quite some time. I love throwing this point back in peoples faces who are like "yeah but bitcoin is such a waste of power...."

What are you talking about?  Per-dollar value, or the entire world's fiat economy?  Nonsense.

Im talking about the electricity needed to keep the banks running. The Logistical infrastructure behind fiat uses way more power. Hell I bet ATM's alone use more power than miners do on a global scale.

Jeez, if course they do! And then some!! London's ATMs probably consume more than the entire global Bitcoin mining community, without the payment processing involved!

All the banks in the world?!  Or per-person?  Please, post some data to back up what you say.

LOL, that was my point =) ... and why the argument  "bitcoin - its just wasting power" ...is a stupid one.
Its like the same argument "well bitcoin is just fake money" .... "um...what do you think fiat is?" lol

They also *serve* the entire world, while i can't even buy gas with bitcoins. >:(

Yes, concur.. but I was stating this referencing all the classifieds on this forum where people are asking absurd prices for their finally shipped in hand BFL gear.. am seeing more and more comments/replies from others in their threads relating their asking price to the current costs of AM gear..

This could be the ultimate reason that bitcoin will not totally replace fiat money, if it reaches several trillions in market value, it means equal amount of dollars worth of electricity will be put into bitcoin mining, this will generate lots of heat, a very big environment problem

It seems that we need some miner which does not generate huge amount of heat

Fiat requires no energy.  It's called paper money.  Try that with bitcoin & see how far you get.
The energy currently used up by bitcoin on infrastructure supports a wholly useless infrastructure -- try shopping with BTC IRL.

C'mon dude 99.9% of fiat doesn't even exist as paper, it exists as contracts and derivatives...

The point is, you *can* use fiat without energy. 
Or a smartphone. 
Or a computer. 
Try doing that with BTC.  Even if you find a place that accepts it. :)

I dont get what you're so caught up on....

As per wiki, theres roughly 2.2million ATM's worldwide, given they use close to 230watts a piece(as per data on an ATM provided on suppliers website) thats about 500million watts.

If all bitcoin hashrate(350Thash) were avalons @ 83gh (750watts) .. the end result is around 3million watts.

How do you think paper money is made - it takes energy....
Really when you think about it, any form of "money" requires some form of "energy" to exist & be used.

The tiny factor that you're overlooking is that 99 percent of the world has never heard of BTC, and the remaining 99.9% of the remaining 1% don't ever use BTC.  And, of course, that remaining measly spec that does use BTC?  Well, they use ATMs too.
That's what i'm caught up on.

Fiat indeed requires almost zero energy to create, but that's the reason it should worth nothing

Actually the cost for fiat money's transaction network is huge, but I don't think that will be close to all the face value of fiat money that were created

This is actually a very good question, who is paying all those ATMs' cost? Money printer himself?

Yes, i'll grant you that, paper money takes a miniscule amount of energy to print, but once that's done, other than reaching into my wallet, no energy is used for transactions at the physical note level.  Not the case with BTC.  Now you're just being stubborn. >:(

Well go fourth and spread the word. There's more money to be made doing that them mining. Seriously.

It just takes effort, but peeps want to sit back and get rich quick. ;)

Your counter arguments for how many people use fiat vs bitcoin...kinda is besides the point. We all know that already. Also, I think it would put it into more accurate perspective for you if you thought of it like this:
NOT how much of the world IS using bitcoin

but rather,

HOW accessible is bitcoin to everyone worldwide, therefore how useful CAN it BECOME worldwide.

The answer to that is, way beyond the usefulness of multiple, fragmented, corrupt, fiat systems.

So, when looking at it that way, the power in use behind bitcoins infrastructure is way more effecient & useful than the horrible fiat financial systems of today.

People just dont realize it .... YET....

So you think bitcoins are valuated by the energy wasted on hashing?  Would their value go up if i figure out a *less* efficient way of hashing? :D

Actually the cost for fiat money's transaction network is huge, but I don't think that will be close to all the face value of fiat money that were created

This is actually a very good question, who is paying all those ATMs' cost? Money printer himself?
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You are paying the ATM costs.

What about the energy it took to get that physical note into your wallet. Costs of transportation, security & storage of physical notes can really start to add up.
And just think....bitcoin does this simultaneously while being the ATM as well!
With bitcoin, you dont NEED all these infrastructure systems built around it that have a shit ton of additional cost(that inevitably ends up costing customers more). Rather, you have a core infrastructure that functions at a simplistic level to carry out nearly all those functions. Because of its simplicity, its very effecient comparatively.

Not to mention the expensive energy intensive physical security aspects of creating notes; holograms, metal weave, watermarks, uv inks, textured papers, etc.

Cryptography and encryption removes all of that, plus it's even more portable, which was the purpose of paper money as promisionary contracts in the first place...

Not if you're comparing energy spent on something used by 7 billion people vs. energy spent on something used by seven.  Come on. :D


How many unicorns would you like me to factor into these calculations?  Thus far, bitcoin is totally inaccessible to 99.9 percent of the world 'coz they don't even know about it.  Ridiculous.


We're not talking about corruption or how good or bad fiat is -- simply on energy wasted.  Keep on track.

It will only raise the cost of YOUR mined coin, not others, it is a free market competition



No, I don't pay a dime when I withdraw from ATMs, and they take out a fee only when you withdraw abroad. I tends to believe this is the biggest effort they created to advertise the easy of use of their worthless money

That's why i asked you to post some data to back up your claims.  Got any?  If you think paper money is wasting our precious resources, back it up with some facts :D


There are no associated costs 'cos i can't spend it anywhere.  It would be doubly absurd if there were costs for that.  Fiat existed long before ATMs and electronic transactions.  Those things are just a bonus, an extra-added feature, inessential to fiat.  Get it?  

When you bank, the fees you pay ... pay for these costs in an indirect way. Sure, you dont pay when you actually withdraw ... banks have become masters of deceit. Someone somewhere ends up paying. When its you that does end up paying fees, you are that "someone / somewhere"

Let's be honest, they were beaten into submission over that! They certainly tried to charge, and definitely did for accepting 'competing issuing banks' cards.

So how does the energy factor into it?  What does it have to do with bitcoin value?  


It's factored into the bank's expenses, just like the free pens, keychains and the deposit slips.  You also don't pay the teller each time you hand her a check.  It's in there.

inessential? ... you kidding me?! You take away ATM's and electronic payment and all the sudden 70% of the economy wont know how to function anymore. Thats how brainwashed the banking system has gotten people.
Its like taking away electricity... nearly 80% of people would just die.

My point is: this day in age, ATM's and electronic stuff is quite essential alongside fiat.

The really stupid 70%.  The rest of us will use wallets, write checks, bank online, use credit cards etc.  My, you're stubborn.


Maybe, but one thing for certain -- bitcoin would certainly die :D


Sure, electronics are essential, though ATMs are only convenient.

When mined bitcoin could not be sold at a price above its electricity and equipment cost, they will not be sold, thus reduce the daily supply of coin in the exchange

Well, weve gotten quite off topic .. Im tired of going back n forth on something we both know =P haha
Yes, Im stubborn =)

ahm too :D

Wait, not sure i'm following...  You're saying the miners will keep mining bitcoin when it costs more to mine a coin then it's worth, but they wouldn't sell it?
1.  Why don't they just buy coins instead of mining?  Too stupid?
2.  Why wouldn't they sell coins at a loss, independently wealthy & stupid?

Just like trading stocks, if you ever sold at a loss, then it means all those losses are realized, if you do not sell them, it is just checkbook loss

They could also stop mining and buy coins, either way the excange rate will be supported

This has been explained many times, the bitcoin's fixed supply totally limited the downside risk, in worst case you end up buying all the coins at $100 with 1 billion dollar, and many sophiscated investors have magnitudes more in their risk capital

I'm getting more and more lost here.  What does fixed supply have to do with anything?  Look at any dead alt coin.  They all had "fixed supply."  They're all worth exactly nothing.  What gives?  If i have $10 invested in bitcoin, and i know the market is going to tank tomorrow, should i not sell?  Because limited supply?  Sure, you never "lose" anything unless you sell, but *you never gain anything until you sell, either*.  
Silliness.

You have never heard about "First mover advantage"? Because it comes first, it becomes the de-facto standard

Why do you accept fiat money which cost nothing to produce as money? Because that is the first thing you know about money when you were still a children

Human brains have only 1-2 places for one category of things, that's the reason why gold/silver not any other PM became the old money standard

This thread cracks me up. Not only the content, but every time I read the thread title I say it in my head in a little kid's voice "You guys laughted at me."  (emphasis on the T) :D

If everyone made a thread every time they predicted something correctly to beat their chest, these whole forums would be filled with "I was right about X" threads.

If i'm nominated for the Cassandra Award, i would be soooo happy ::)