Bitcoin Forum

well people,

we have the bitcoin foundation, Why are they ignoring the BFL business practices ?

discuss.

Why should they care. They aren't the bitcoin police.

That's NOT their mandate. You have to inform yourself, and take responsibility for your decisions. If BFL have wronged you in some way feel free to join the people currently planning a lawsuit against BFL...

Actually preventing serious black-eyes that harm the adoption of Bitcoin is or should be part of their mandate.  Actually if they DID do something it would lend them a ton of credibility with a core group that has been slow to embrace the foundation.   

Yeah, I'm sure a core group of rabid, psychotic, tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts with personality disorders are real high on their priority list.  You do realize that the "core" group you're referring to are looked at as nutjobs by everyone but themselves, right?

Which conspiracies are you talking about Josh?  You may want to focus on a few fringe "people" but actually I was referring to the group of people who distrust centralization which is a much larger group than you give credit.  

P.S.  Hint, this group is not all "rabid, psychotic, tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts" as you like to characterize them.

The core group is 790 strong and growing. Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155730.0)

 Judging by his posts on these forums, we should take Inaba at his word. The man arguably has extensive first-hand experience with personality disorders.

 I'm not sure I've ever encountered a situation where a company officer publicly refers to his customers with such disdain and malice, and has gone on to become a legitimate, successful business.

Wherever you go your name is shit. Your piece of shit antics will follow you everywhere. 

Ok, so how would the Bitcoin Foundation "going after" BFL do anything for these people you are referring to?

I don't want them to just "go after" anyone, that is irresponsible.   But there have been some very very valid concerns about some of the claims and and business tactics by Butterfly Labs Inc.  The community, not just the rabid, psychotic, tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts have tried over and over to have you address respectfully and intelligently that in my opinion have not been addressed. 

Josh, you specifically have seemed to go out of your way to make that the most difficult and painful process coming from BFL's head of PR which in the manner you have held yourself, makes you having that title a mockery of all real professional public relations experts, but I digress on that point. 

And what would these "very very valid concerns" be that haven't already been addressed elsewhere?  Please keep in mind, that what you might consider a "very very valid concern" isn't really a "very very valid concern" as the general world/business world understands it.  Asking for proprietary and/or non-public information would be an example of this.  You may *really* *really* want to know that information, but it's not normal or reasonable to ask for it and that's why it hasn't been provided.  Just because you *really* *really* want to know something doesn't make it "very very valid." 

I look forward to your answer.

You really think it has anything to do with people wanting to know non-public information?

1.  Mis-leading statements & advertising on delivery schedule
2.  Mis-leading statements on performance claims initially
3.  Disrespectful Customer service primarily by you (Josh)
4.  Whole-fully inadequate customer service responses that basically were intentionally misleading to cover for issue #2 mentioned above.

Try directly responding only to these issues without addressing me or giving excuses on why.  I am only listing these because you asked me directly and I owe you that much.   You are the company so it doesn't matter what people do or say, proper business means holding yourself to a higher standard.  

Note:  If I came across as directly advocating BCF to do this action, it should not be taken there because I have no business relationship with BFL so I was not directly affected by these claims that have been brought up many times by many miners.   What I was addressing that if BCF did take this issue on, it would give them creditability for addressing an issue that rightly or wrongly is a big issue with a large amount of miners.  If anything, they would be doing you a favor by opening a dialogue with BFL and allow you to address and make amends to issues which I DO believe are valid.  I am just not advocating that BCF do that, by I am giving the observation that it would help them with a core group of users.

Not only should the Bitcoin foundation not do this, they couldn't if they wanted.  There is a concept of standing in legal matters.  The Bitcoin foundation has suffered no damages, it has no standing to file suit.  Period.  It would be instantly throw out of court on motion and would make the Foundation a laughing stock in the legal community.

Of course it does, that's what the vast majority of the "questions" center around.


There are no intentionally misleading statements or advertising.  Statements and advertising were given as what was believed to be true at the time.  If you can't see that, it's impossible to continue this line of discussion and serves as a direct example as to why it's impossible to hold a rational conversation with people on this forum.  The fact that you (apparently) honestly believe that this was some sort of scam from it's inception, with a complicated, methodical and intricate plot to dissemination misinformation and advertising is why no rational answer will satisfy.


See #1 above.  If you honestly believe we knew our power usage was going to be something other than what we said it was, it serves as yet another example of why it's impossible to hold a rational conversation.  You already have it in your mind that there was wrongdoing and that things were the way you want them to be, as opposed to what they really were.


Ok, lets address this.  I seriously doubt I can get a rational response out of you with regards to this, but I will try to hold a rational conversation, but first I need one thing from you, because this one thing will illustrate my further dialog.

Please provide an example of disrespectful customer service that I have initiated.  I ask this of you because I only respond disrespectfully to people who approach in a disrespectful, rude, offensive or otherwise unacceptable manner.  I do not initiate hostile dialog, merely respond to it.  This point was lost long ago on most people, because they are inherently irrational in their hatred of BFL.  If you begin a dialog by lying, posting false information, writing in an exceptionally rude manner, etc... you can expect the same in return, as I have no respect or use for you.  On the other hand, as so (sadly) few people have found out, when you approach the situation with common courtesy, rationality and respect, you get the same in return.

Now, before you provide "evidence" of one of the typical troll crew asking "polite" information, please take into account past actions.  Once you have a history of trolling and being a general ass hat, it doesn't matter how you continue down the line, you are already completely useless to the conversation and no amount of concern-trolling will repair that situation.  With that in mind, please provide examples of where someone approached the dialog in a polite, respectful manner from the get-go and got a vitriolic, disrespectful response.  Bear in mind, I'm not saying it hasn't happened on the rare occasion (though I can't think of any, honestly), but those instances, if they even exist are so few and far between that they don't really apply in this context that you are referring to (That of a systemic, unilateral response paradigm from me).


This seems like part of the above, which has already been addressed.  Again, what you consider inadequate usually means it is some sort of information you *really* *really* want to know but aren't *really* entitled to.


Again, how would this "core group of users" you are referring to be helped if BCF "went after" BFL?  You still haven't answered this question.

Where is the Japapeno test report Josh?

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Allow me, all, to address the clown pertaining to the 15pt bold red text above.

Over 6 hours ago, a customer of BFL posted on its forum the following: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/monarch-discussion/4533-so-bfl-who-first-batch-monarch.html#post54429


The guy was kind enough to support BFL with his ~$5,000 investment/order, and in return all he wants is an answer to a relatively simple question. But, somehow you feel it more important to come here, a community you're on record to loathe, ignoring the very customer base that has so kindly afforded 45, and counting, employees at BF Labs Inc.

You even have the gull to come here and chastise the very people on the forum BFL supports with its advertising dollars/bitcoins.

Here's a suggestion for you, one of which 99% of the business people here wouldn't even need to be reminded of: Go back to your forum and address every issue that your loyal customers who've sent their hard earned money to BFL have, then when you're done, come back here and playyyy with us for a while.

Each time I see you in a thread, I will now remind you of the above, among other things.

GAME ON!

Yes it would be a great for the Foundation to have some hand in this but I would suggest that "members" of the foundation or people in the community agree to a set of ethical standards and agree to uphold them. Should BFL or Avalon break ranks with those standards then maybe the foundation could put them on a list of sorts for people to avoid them. Self-regulation should be the goal. Perhaps those mining hardware developers and diy groups could form a Bitcoin Mining Hardware Foundation and do just that. Obviously BFL and Avalon would not qualify at this point given their failures.

Either develop an independent body that the community funds to do this or an association of hardware makers world wide to promote ethical practices. I would be willing to work with other companies and DIY groups to do just that. Having worked on developing a professional association for teachers and school in Montessori in Indonesia we have seen great progress already on promotion and improvement of teachers, school and general knowledge of Montessori in a short time. That can be done in Bitcoin / Crypto community as well.

We really should focus on the positive players in the bitcoin economy. Seems like there is an overemphasis on those who have failed the community so far, currently there are plenty of viable and ethical contributors and that is where we need to put our efforts. Maybe Josh and Phin can start a new thread to discuss BFL's shortcomings or maybe I can about set up another thread. Maybe it is just easier if we discuss it here.

Agree wholeheartedly with this... maybe you want to work with me and start work on something that promotes positive and ethical Bitcoin business?

lol, trying to fuck people over with a lawsuit @scamdoo?

I have never said they should take "legal" action, there are other methods they could use to affect change at BFL (obviously only if BFL is willing to listen to suggestions).  Also I would mention they do have in-house legal counsel (Patrick) and like the EFF could give assistance to members that have suffered damages.

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I was responding to the OP who stated "Bitcoin Foundation should file a lawsuit against BFL".

First off, regardless of if any of those observations are true, you being a representative of the company would never admit it.  Why waste our time there, you are paid to not hold any of those views regardless of validity of lack there of.  


But let me take just this one comment above.

Response: Actually no, I never thought it was a scam.  From your FPGA line I knew BFL had the technical competency to develop an ASIC chip.  I just want to make that clear, I never have said BFL was a scam and I actually had equipment on order.

Here has been my issued and it ties into and fits with your business model from my perspective.  I have been around the block and I know how many dominate players act.  It is about trying to corner the ASIC market and be a monopoly.  I do hold and still hold that BFL intentionally announced their ASIC line with grossly overstated delivery schedules with mostly the sole reason to chill competition in the space.  I support this chilling effect by the fact you not only gave a timeline that was 10 months off the mark but also the specifications you gave made it best in class just like your FPGA line.   With the large upfront costs that go into developing an ASIC, if you would of actually delivered on time, it would of greatly reduced any ongoing competition because of BFL ability to raise the difficulty level faster than anyone else so that if you could continue to do that you would push people to develop on increasing more expensive chip sizes.  

You may want to mention that my point is valid by saying, "we have tons of competition now" but I would then point out the feeling many people had last summer when we were sure ASIC would be rolling out in Oct 2012.  Only because Avalon decided that they would do it no matter what and with your slipped delivery schedule allowed others to feel they had a chance to develop.   I know this directly because I have talked to people involved with ASIC projects, this is first hand knowledge.

Every other claim is quite small compared to this one.  You may dismiss this but I wouldn't do it to fast.  Its real and I know many very level people that hold the same feeling.  I am quite rational, ask anyone who has met me in person and if you did you would know it to be true.   At the point, I digress and will look for a response either directly or in private.  I am tired of talking about BFL, you guys will either change or not and people will either support or not.  It doesn't matter at this point, personally I hope you do change for the better because really want to embrace BFL, really.  You are part of our community love or hate and that will not change.

Thank you for your time Josh.


Cheers,
Dalkore  

All good D&T, we can always have a beer or scotch together.  I always enjoy your writing.  You're a good member of our community.

On the contrary, I started out as a miner and was, while not equally skeptical of BFL in the beginning as some people,  indeed quite skeptical.  I have been a big open source advocate and support the "community" both in and out side of bitcoin. I am on the side of the miners, not on the side of business.  Believe it or not, I advocate the miners perspective inside the company here.  However, with that position I also have to weigh that against the best interests of the business and find a balance that both sides can live with (note, I do not say are happy with.  As someone said, though I can't recall to whom I should attribute the quote, Twain perhaps and I'm paraphrasing regardless "A successful negotiation is where both parties leave unhappy.") and allow the business to continue to function and grow.  

I suspect I might be able to anticipate your response to this, but perhaps not... so I'll leave it there for now.


Ok, lets grant your position for a minute as being true and look at it from that perspective.  As a business entity acting in it's own best interest, why would a business not do that if it were a way to ensure it's own survival?  If that were an effective tactic (and you say it is, so I'll take your word on it), to not use it and allow competition to consume your marketshare would be incredibly stupid.  Why would you expect a business to act in a manner that is directly in conflict with it's own continued existence?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The reality is, though, that the timeline and specs that were offered were believed to be true at the time.  If I were around at the time, I would have pushed for a more extended timeline with more flexibility, just like I am pushing for the Monarch now.  I am not the final say in this company by any means, my word carries weight but it does not carry the day when that day ends.  I am an advocate for the miner here within BFL, but I'm also aware of the needs of business, which most, if not all, of the detractors are completely oblivious to or just do not want to acknowledge.  

You speak of change, and that's great.  But the cost of that change is the insolvency at worst or severely deteriorating business.  There is no business in this market that can operate in the altruistic manner you appear to want.  BFL is not a charity or a non-profit organization, it's a for profit business.  Acting against that would be nonsensicle and once people finally come to accept and understand that bitcoin is now a business and not some pie-in-the-sky dream of libertarians (much to their chagrin, I'm sure), perhaps the fervor and irrationality may die down a bit, but that day is probably a long way off.  But just because the world isn't the way you want the world to be (I'm using the royal "you" here, not you specifically) is not an excuse for you to be an asshat on the internet.  It's those people I do not care for or respect.

I suspected the costs of doing business properly would drive BFL onto the rocks, at best crippling them.

I think it is for precisely that reason that nobody respects you and so many believe that you are running a long-con at BFL. More posts like the previous one (with content and a point about the BFL business) and less of the "monumental assholes" & "douchbags" posts would perhaps undo some of that reasoning.

BTW, that guy I mention yesterday... you know... the one that was so kind to send BFL bitcoins for a product... Well, it looks like the question he asked yesterday has yet to be addressed my you, or anybody else over a t BFL.

To refresh your memory, it's a post on BFL's forum that I'm in reference to, shown below and linked here: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/monarch-discussion/4533-so-bfl-who-first-batch-monarch.html#post54429


I'm well aware that to you, Josh, $5,000 isn't a very large sum, thus your probable reason for not yet addressing the loyal BFL customer, but maybe, just maybe, that $5,000 meant a whole lot more to him.

Please see what you can do for that guy. Don't you, COO of BF Labs Inc., owe him at least that much respect? At the very least, tell him to post over here on this forum, similar to what you told that other guy yesterday on BFL's forum. We all loved that one!

Then again, what the fuck do I know about business. For all we know, the business practice you/BFL practice is the new norm, hence you kindly coming here to learnt us monumental assholes, of which we kindly say, "Thank you, Josh Zerlan, for allowing us to hear your sacred words. Hollowed be thy name!"

Because there's a difference between "competition" and "unfair competition". Lying about things such as FCC certification to eliminate competitors falls under the "unfair competition" category.

Like I said, stop being an asshole and a douchebag and you'll get the same respect in  return (although you'll have a long, hard road, given your history).  Once again, you're a perfect example of the root of the problem.  You, quite literally, are the cause of the problem.  You find it impossible to approach a situation with rationality and reasonability, instead immediately launching into an adversarial, caustic tone.  Literally your first sentence in response is an insult, and that's why you get what you get and I have zero respect for you.  I very, very seriously doubt you'll find very many people that disagree with the fact that if you and the rest of the anti-BFL crew stopped posting the same crap over and over on the forums that the placed would be much, much nicer to discuss bitcoin.  But as it is now, every single thread you post in turns into a mire of crap.  I avoid some threads all together and yet the thread turns into a junkpile the minute you start posting, that should tell you something.

 No, Josh. Your documented history of "mistakes" and contempt for these forums is the root of the problem.

 We are white blood cells responding to your infection of our host.

You seem to think the burden of proof is on us. It isn't. It is on you. I am not trying to sell 28nm ASIC dreams for $5K a pop.
You seem to think we have no history, that every post is starting fresh. I gave BFL (and by extension you) 6 months of being late and tossing around insults on these forums before I stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt. The fake shipping of the April 1st unit to dodge a bet was the last straw.

This place would be much nicer place to talk about Bitcoin if BFL refunded people's money who asked for it, and if BFL shipped people their merchandise like they promised they would, and if the BFL rep would stop calling people names and instead live up to his responsibilities. This place would be much nicer if BFL actually had answers for questions, instead of insults.

Avalon is having similar problems delivering (not a year late yet), but you don't see the forum overrun with Avalon hate threads because Yifu doesn't show up here day after day and laugh at his customers and call them assholes and douchebags.

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day long, you are the asshole."  -Raylan Givens
You have been running into assholes all day long every day for a year straight.

Burden of what proof?  Do you even know what that term means?  The fact that you're slinging it around here seems to indicate you're using it as a buzzword.  What on earth are you possibly referring to?


Apparently you don't understand the problem, which is, in itself, the problem (or one of them, anyway).  People are tired of seeing the same crap posted by you and others, over and over.  Most of it's irrational, fictional or exaggerated.  A small percentage of it is legitimate, which is fine, but repeating it over and over, regardless of it's legitimacy is annoying to basically everyone but you.  If you stopped posting today, and never posted again, the only thing that would happen is the forum quality would improve.  That's what I'm saying, you bring nothing of value to the forum with your mind numbing postings repeating the same things over and over.  There's no new discourse when you are around, anything new that starts to brew in a thread, you post in, and it quickly degenerates.  Do you seriously deny this?  Threads I don't even participate in suffer from this, so it's not *me* that's wrecking the threads, it's *you*.


I don't laugh at the customers or call them assholes or douchebags unless they start out by being an asshole or douchebag.  Once again (how many times do I have to point this out until you get it through your head?) - if you start out with respect, you get respect in return.  If you start out as an asshole, well you get what you deserve. Stop being an asshole is the solution.

You have to convince customers to buy your product. You must convince them that you will deliver on your promises. You are the one who has something to prove. I can just sit here. I don't have to keep customers from filing lawsuits against me. Thus, it is your burden, not mine.
Also, wikipedia you nitwit. The philosophical burden of proof or onus (probandi) is the obligation on a party in an epistemic dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position.

Perhaps if BFL clears their backlog, there would be far fewer angry customers who come here looking for answers. There wouldn't be someone new every day saying "BFL won't refund my money" then I wouldn't have to post the PSA for how to get refunds from BFL. BFL keeps failing to deliver, the anger gets worse. You have the nerve to blame the people you are failing for seeking answers here? Of course you do. You are unprofessional and seem to take delight in frustrating your customer base.

That is what your customers are giving you. Most of your posts here are of you being an asshole to somebody, and now you are getting it back 100x. Karma.
Also, you seem to think it is funny for the representative of a company to insult customers and ignore questions. You claim it is in BFL's best interests to annoy the "monumental assholes of bitcointalk". You caused this problem, and if you did your job, the problem would go away.

New angry BFL customers arrive here every day. Asking the old ones to shutup and bite the pillow isn't going to solve anything for you. It will just buy you some time.

You are truly a lost cause, heh.

If it is altruistic to ask for companies, especially in underdeveloped markets, to refrain from these tactics then I don't know how to respond.  I rest my case.  Thank you for taking time to write a thoughtful response and in the bigger picture, you have shown some class here.  Thank you for taking a second to step in my shoes and see it from my perspective.  

Yeah I do have a more idealistic vision than many but until we start holding ourselves to a higher standard, overall it will reduce innovation and shut out start-ups that truly add the most value and creativity over time.  

Best of luck and I do hope your keep the miner alive in BFL and ignore the ass-hats and lead by example.  

Cheers,
Dalkore

 Don't blame many of us for not being susceptible to your attempts at Jedi-Mind-Trickery.

 The force runs pretty strong here.

Well, I'm now picturing Xian01 as looking like Watto... ("Mind tricks don't work on me; only money.")
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121109191755/starwars/images/1/1b/Watto-SWE.png

I don't think the foundation has grounds for a lawsuit but singles/mini rig buyers should.  It's now gotten to the ridiculous point where jalapeños shipped are from Feb '13 orders while singles/rigs are still in July '12.  As a completely interchangeable product as evidenced by the fact that a 1.5TH mini rig was broken up into x3 500gh and statements that a 60gh or 30gh orders hash rates will be honored I can't understand how it's justifiable that a customer not only has to wait but was supposed to guess that ordering a bunch of little products would be delivered months before a single unit.