Bitcoin Forum

I know there are a bunch of you guys sitting on stacks of bitcoins that you bought, probably for $1 apiece, back a few years ago just waiting for something cool to buy with them.  How about this?  Five acres of land in Lake of the Ozarks Missouri with over a $1,000 foot of shoreline all for just 585 bitcoins (relative to today's current exchange rate).

You gotta admit, owning a piece of land that you can build your dream home on with your bitcoin fortune is probably pretty tempting.  No real-estate agent, no nonsense, just a straightforward sale from me to you.  Send 585 bitcoins to my wallet and we will get the title transferred over into your name. 

I've held this property for a number of years, it has relatively low taxes (just about $350 a year).  My wife and I bought it when we originally thought we would build a retirement home there.  However, since then, we have changed our idea of what retirement looks like.

Here's the link to a website I posted with information about the property.  Feel feel to contact me if you have more questions.

http://lake-of-the-ozarks-lakefront-property.blogspot.com/ (http://lake-of-the-ozarks-lakefront-property.blogspot.com/)

 ;D

Good luck if you really think it works this way ;)

What do you mean?  I own the property outright.  The only thing we have to do is set up a title exchange, there will be some small fee for that, but that's all you need to do.  Because we will be using bitcoin we don't even need escrow or anything.  We just need someone to do the title-deed process.  I've sold property before that I owned outright without real-estate agents, it doesn't have to be that complicated.

John

you think someone is going to send you 74 thousand dollars with no trust and no verification

If I was buying property I would go meet the guy face to face of course.

I wouldn't expect anyone to buy a piece of property without looking at it first and, most of the time, having the sale takes place in person (though this is not always done, sometimes the buyer just sends a legal representative).  To do a real estate transaction you use a title company to actually finalize the deal.  They will do a deed search to make sure that the property is legally defined, owned by the person who says owns it, and has no liens.  They handle signing the documents and doing the actual legal transfer.  The title deed company gets paid several hundred dollars for this service and is designed to protect both the buyer and seller.  And, with vacant land, these kinds of transactions are much simpler than if a home is involved. 

I never meant that anyone would just send bitcoin to my wallet and expect a deed to the land to show up in the mail.  What I meant is that the transaction could be done without involving banks, or escrow, or real-estate agents, and that is kind of a cool thing.

My question is why do you think doing a real-estate deal with bitcoin would be any different than doing a real-estate deal with a briefcase of cash?  The bitcoin is a tad bit safer I would think.

John

It's only safer for the recipient.

Also, these boards are full of people who have never bought property before so they don't understand how it's normally done.

Having said that, your suggestion to do it all without banks, escrow, real-estate agents suggests to me you don't know how Bitcoin works.

Ok, a little bit of background.  I'm 52 years old.  I own around $12,000 worth of bitcoin.  I've been a professional software engineer for over 30 years.  I have written open source bitcoin software.  So, I think I know a little bit about bitcoin.  Second, I have bought and sold numerous properties in my lifetime, some with, and some without, real estate agents; always with a title company to handle the transfer of deed.

I'm curious what do you think I don't understand here?

I have a piece of property.  I own it 100%.  There are no liens of any kind on the property.  I offer it for sale.  For cash or bitcoins.  I don't care.  I could sell it for a nice sports car if I wanted to.  I could sell it for whatever I wish.  It's my property, I can do with it as I please.  The buyer needs to know that the property deed transfers from my possession to theirs without any outstanding liens.  The title company, for a fee, handles this bit of paperwork.  Their interest in the transaction is simply that the deed is clear and that the new owner holds title to the property.  It is none of their concern whether I sold it for bitcoins or a kiss on the cheek.  We are paying them to make sure that the title is clear and changes hands.

So, my question remains, just what is different about paying for property with bitcoins versus dollars, gold bullion, sheep, or a pat on the back?

I can just give my property to someone else, but even then you still have to file the paperwork with the county for the deed transfer to occur.  

Why do I need escrow?  Why do I need a real estate agent?  Why do I need to involve a bank?  All I need is a title company to handle the paperwork.

Selling a few acres of land just isn't that complicated in rural Missouri.  

Since this is a bitcoin discussion forum, the real question at hand is this.  What is the difference between selling real-estate for bitcoin versus a backpack of cash?  Or, are you saying that I can't sell real-estate for a back-pack of cash either?

I've done this a bunch of times before, so please tell me what I'm doing wrong here....

John

I would like to add to this, I purchased a 15 acre farm with a 100 year old farmhouse, and barn, based on a hand written note I signed.  No real estate agent was involved.  No title company either.  All I did was go down to the county courthouse and file a document.  I'm not saying I would recommend it, but since I was buying the property from my dad because he was dying of cancer and needed some cash fast, that is what happened.  My point here is this, you do *not* need a real estate agent, an attorney, escrow, or anyone else to sell rural property in the state of Missouri.  You file a transfer of deed document with the county courthouse and that's it.  Done. Sold.

Now, I would not recommend that course of action when selling property between most people. I would strongly recommend that the buyer and seller engage a title company.

I later sold that same property to someone else who saw a sign I stuck in the front yard, without a bank, escrow, real estate agent or anyone other than just a title company to file the paperwork with the county.

What I want to understand is why anyone here thinks you *must* have a real-estate agent, escrow, an attorney, a bank, or anyone else involved to file a sheet of paper with the county courthouse?!?!?

John

Buying property with Bitcoin is risky, I wouldn't do that if I were you.

Can you explain why it is risky?  A bag of cash could be counterfeited, a cashiers check could be fake, but bitcoin to my wallet address is much safer by comparison.  Just what is risky about accepting bitcoin in payment over, say, a bag of cash or a cashier's check?

Do you mean it is risky in that the price of bitcoin is volatile?  I can convert bitcoin to fiat easily enough; I do it all the time.

I don't see anything wrong with the OP's posting:
- meet to inspect the property
- agree on inspections, final sales price, escrow / title company

that's it... real estate escrow will handle the transaction for a fee.

The biggest issue I see here is finding a RE escrow company willing to verifying if bitcoins cleared or not.

Salesprice will have to be provided in $ to county recorder.

The OP is right by saying that RE transactions can be much more straight forward as they usually are with agents taking a fortune for supplying a standardized  3 sheeter contract.

Good Luck!

It's not quite right for me. But I led outdoor trips in that area and it is beautiful country.

What if the seller don't give you the land after you had transfer the Bitcoin?

The actual transfer happens at a title company.  You sit in a room with an agent who confirms that the deed is transferred from person (A) to person (B).  At that time, the bitcoin is transferred to my wallet, I wait for confirmation, shake hands, end everyone is happy.

I take it few people in this thread making critical comments have ever bought or sold land.  It's really not that complicated.

John

Let me explain:


Here's a little background on me. I'm 12 years old. I own around 30,000 shares in Berkshire Hathaway. I've been developing .NET apps for 38 years. I wrote Linux. So, I think I know all about how the world works. Second, I have bought and sold about a dozen castles and all whilst holding my breath.

Some of this might not be true but you can trust me because I'm confirming it is.



I don't think you understand how Bitcoin works socially. You might have a perfect grasp of the technical issues but clearly you have no understanding of the community here.



Well all of your 'proof' that you're well versed in selling property was never called into doubt.

The reason you don't understand Bitcoin is you don't appreciate the risk the seller puts themselves into when they're buying off you if no escrow or lawyers are involved.

I'm sure you're a stand-up guy, after all, you've proven it beyond a doubt with the sheer force of your convictions.



We get it. You're an amazing guy and everyone should trust you.

Only, that's really not how things work around here. Here, the standard of proof is a little higher than a few posts explicitly stating how awesome you are.



This isn't Missouri.



You could think about it from the buyers point of view. As a mental exercise, imagine you're buying a house off of me.

I'm 12. I'm a stand-up kinda guy. You can trust me. I've done this before...

None of us is related to you so you'll have to understand if we need a slightly higher burden of proof here.

I think what you don't understand is the risk for the buyer.

I'm not saying you can't execute a purchase without a lawyer. I'm saying the buyer can't trust the seller when Bitcoins are involved.

Then the title company is your escrow.

I'm assuming that the title company effectively vouches that the titles are genuine and that they belong to the seller? (I.e. no thefts or forgeries of title documents).

Correct.  They are an 'escrow' in that sense for the title.  But not necessarily the escrow for the money; as not all property is even necessarily sold for money.

That is really cool, never though that it might work.

Some of the responses to this thread have been a little bit bizarre and I'm not sure how to respond to them.

Whether or not you know how real-estate transactions work is beside the point of the core question at hand.

The core question is what is the difference between paying for something, anything, with bitcoin versus the equivalent amount in cash?

To me, bitcoin seems preferable.  Cash can be counterfeit, bitcoin, as far as I am aware, once confirmed, cannot.

So, let's sidestep the technical details of how one goes about buying and selling a piece of real-estate and answer this specific question.

What makes accepting bitcoin more or less dangerous than accepting cash?

Is it the amount?  Like, as if accepting $100 worth of bitcoin is no big deal, but accepting $10,000 worth of bitcoin is?

Since, apparently, according to the people in this thread, I 'know nothing' about bitcoin, please explain it to me.

Why is cash better than bitcoin?

I think it's amazing.
If you sale any RE through bitcoin please do update us.

It is no different than money, either... assets are assets... I think there was just a miscommunication between a few of the other posters and you, John.  Technicalities and phrasing aside, this seems like a really cool hassle free way to exchange Real Estate if anyone is ever interested.

Cool stuff

Not sure if you're just wilfully ignoring the points being raised or if you're trying to convince people that you're naive and can therefore be trusted  :-\

What in the world are you people even talking about?  I've addressed every bizarre point raised in this surreal thread and haven't received a single rational response.  No one bothered to explain in a rational way the difference between accepting cash, goods, or bitcoins, for trade.  So, I give up.  Go back to your healthy trolling guys...

Fine, I'll ask this one simple question:

Are you aware of the risks involved in being the purchaser (i.e. the one handing Bitcoins over)?

Yes, they are the same risks involved in handing me a big bag of cash and walking away, right?  Is your question a general question about the risks involved in bitcoin or the risks involved in doing cash transactions for a piece of property?

In other words, can you explain to me the risk/difference between a bitcoin transaction and a cash in hand transaction? To me they seem effectively the same.  Well, cash is a bit riskier because it can be counterfeited while bitcoins, once fully confirmed by the network, cannot.

You first started off by saying no escrow was required.

Then it turns out you have a person that doesn't release the funds until the paperwork is concluded (which as far as I'm concerned is the escrow).

Assuming the person doing the holding of funds is neutral and is liable if they release funds when the documents are forged/fake or the person who has the documents isn't the person who owns the property then that is escrow.

If you're saying that if you were buying a bridge off me and we both met at a coffee shop and I showed you ID that I was Mr. Bridge Owner then:

1) You transferred the bitcoins over to me
2) We then sign the documents

You've just been scammed.

I'm going to head to the bathroom for a moment whilst you look over the documents. You have my fake ID but I don't care. I'll make some more.

You're left with a bridge that isn't yours or mine and I'm away with Bitcoins you can't recover because you don't even know who I am.

Where's your recourse?

I think incredible is not understanding the process at hand;

You go up check out the property. You like it, you engage the title company to do a title search. Once they determine that the selling party has right to transfer to the buying party and that everyone is moving forward, title insurance is bought. Then the closing occurs, generally funds are wired to an attorney trust account, documents signed, and then funds are released. If it was done for bitcoin, you could either send funds to an escrow agent, or work out another deal that is to everyone's agreement - I could imagine the seller could sign over the title, hand it to his or the buyers attorney under the instruction that it's not to be released until x number of confirmations have been received.

You're making this far more complicated than it had to be. And really, taken to its conclusion, doesn't do much for bitcoin - I mean, we already see people are wary of spending bitcoins on miners, either due to concerns of fraud or the worry that the miner won't produce the original amount of bitcoins spent over its lifetime, now we see someone afraid of conducting simple real estate transaction for bitcoin, which is itself one of the most structured transactions around. Pretty soon, one might ask if bitcoin is such a great currency replacement, why is it that people that own it are afraid to spend it, for fear of brain defrauded, etc?

Lol, I don't know why people argue over the risks of buying something when they will never buy it themselves so they have no need to worry about it and need to stop earning dat post count.

I'm sure if someone would buy this property then the purchaser will obviously know the right way to go and safeguard themselves from any possible scam.

Have you read the thread or only the last few posts?  :-\

The worry is that some naive person gets scammed.

Goodness knows Bitcoin's reputation doesn't need further tarnishing.

"Bitcoin allows you to get scammed!" - No, not being aware of the risks allows you to get scammed.

I'm sure no one will buy this anyway, and if they have that many BTC then they should know better to complete a real estate sale with safe guards.

I hope someone does buy it.

I just hope they do it safely.

Well, you are on bitcointalk.  :D

I read the thread, and it wasn't apparent that the op was saying " hey, send me bitcoins and I'll sell you some land". And if anyone does that, they deserve the loss just as much as they would if they mailed him suitcase of cash. And if there is anyone willing to send suitcases of cash, let me know, I'll give you my address...

He's not saying "to make things faster, let's not even do a title search", just trying to cut out the broker, which can take 5-8 % of the sale, and just targeting a community that likely has more than a few people sitting on large amounts of newfound wealth. Seems smart.  And it seems like contracts could be created to protect all parties involved

Ie :

Buyer proves they own coins by signing a message with the wallets key that owns those coins

Contract prepared which transfers property upon the transfer of the coins from that wallet to the address the seller specifies. Both sign. Deed prepared and executed. Bitcoins transferred. If the buyer fails to transfer the coins, then the transfer is null and void - the seller can easily show, via the block chain, that he never received the value that was originally agreed upon.

Again, very straight forward transaction. If bitcoin can't accommodate that, them I'd wonder what it's utility is.

Did you miss the part where OP said he didn't need escrow?

He's right - he doesn't need escrow but the Bitcoin holder might want that security.

I suspect 99% of the people on this thread aren't from Missouri so will have no solid understanding of the law there so they'll want to have a lawyer involved. As soon as a lawyer is involved you have escrow facilities.

You could just trust OP to get "someone to do the title-deed process" but how are you going to confirm the title deeds are real?

I personally wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a general (special warranty deed), a quitclaim deed or a fiduciary deed far less determine if the documents were even genuine. They might as well be immigration papers as far as I'm able to tell.

I saw that, but again, didn't find that alarming. I'm positive a transaction of this sort could be accomplished with nothing but buyer, seller and title company. Of course the buyer is going to Missouri. Who in the world world but something sight unseen like that?

My vote is that you're way too skeptical. He's not saying abandon all the normal steps in a transaction, just the  ones that cost a lot.

If I had property to sell, I would feel 100% comfortable doing it this way:

You come visit the property.
If you like it, we draw up contract stating that for x bitcoins recieved, the propert is yours.
I sign deed citing or encompassing that contract and hand it to you. You send me coins.

So straight forward, I can't believe you're making an issue of it.

If I don't provide you deed and contract, you don't send coins. Buyer is protected

If I do that and you don't provide coins, it's simple to demonstrate that. Hence you cAnt file anything at the courthouse claiming that property. You want to fight it? I'll hire Gavin as an expert witness for the day to explain to the jury that if no coins appeared in my wallet, I Didn't get paid.

Again. Real estate is one of the most straightforward and structured transactions out there. If be more frightful buying a miner from asicminer than I would buying land, if I had that many bitcoins.

I think you've missed my point.

Also, in the world of Bitcoin, if you're not skeptical, you're broke. I'm all for selling property for Bitcoin - check the other thread where I'm out and out defending someone trying to sell property (only they're not leaving a potential buyer at any risk).

Again, the seller holds no risk here. I don't know how often I need to repeat this. Of course the seller is happy without escrow - they have nothing to lose, whether they really do own the property or not.

Perhaps an example will work better for you. I have a 2 million dollar house I'd like to practically give away to you for a mere 10 Bitcoins. It's a bargain. Just think of all the profit you'll make when you sell it.

All you have to do is come over to the UK and we'll get the Tenant Rights of Property* signed over to you. You can sign the blockchain proving that you own the coins and once you've transferred the Bitcoins over I'll give you the title deeds. It can all be done at a licensed and registered Title Deed Exchange Office*.

I can't believe you won't take up this fantastic opportunity to make almost 2 Million dollars - and you call me skeptical.

I don't think I'm missing anything. You're over complicating and suggesting the OP was advocating the buyer throw every caution to the wind, which he never seemed to be. No matter, he's long gone so there's no reason to continue arguing it.

It's because the seller said, "No escrow company".  Later, he said that the title company would provide the escrow services, but title companies don't really do that (source: I used to write title software). 

Any buyer doing this transaction should use an escrow company.  That's what they are for, even if you are using bitcoins.  And escrow companies are notoriously Luddite, so you definitely should find one that doesn't mind a bitcoin transaction before you start.

One of my firms clients bought a house last month, and we sent the funds straight to the escrow company.

By the point is, with bitcoin you don't need that step.

You draft your deed "for value received, xxx bitcoins transferred to xxx address, seller hereby... "

Seller can then sign it over to buyer. If buyer reneges, you might be the first court case, but it's simple to prove that the buyer did not transfer value and therefor the transfer is void. So, no, you don't need an escrow mechanism (and associated fee), when doing a sale via bitcoin. Now, it wouldn't be nearly so easy if buyer or seller had a mortgage involved. But in this case, the seller doesn't have a mortgage and he's looking for a buyer who won't need one also.

Despite so many peoples hope that bitcoin can overturn the system, the system can accommodate bitcoin just fine...

I was really hoping to come in here and see a monumental bitcoin success story.
But then I remembered I'm on an internet forum..

Either way, I hope you find a buyer and work something out. Would be huge for BTC.

Can someone please explain to me what I'm missing?

I honestly don't get it.

Am I imagining the risk that the buyer takes on by using Bitcoin without escrow?

Has this already been addressed and I missed it or the post deleted?

lucasjkr - please help me out here!

BitchicksHusband - have I gone insane?

You're mis-seeing the risk

Here is a sample deed (http://www.rocketlawyer.com/form/quit-claim-deed.rl)

You would first examine the property.

You would then engage a title company to do a title search and then buy title insurance.

The SELLER would then provide a deed along the lines of (and do consult with a lawyer so that you're sure that your deed is compliant with the laws of your juridstiction)

You would change it to be along the lines of:

[/i]

The SELLER executes the deed and delivers it to the BUYER. The BUYER then sends the bitcoins to the seller.

The SELLER is protected because, if the BUYER does not deliver (which is demonstratable - if the buyer says "but i did send those coins to that address", you can easily prove that that didn't occur) then the seller can prove they did not receive the consideration and nullify the transaction.

The BUYER is protected because they don't transmit the bitcoins until they have an all clear on the title and they have an executed deed in hand.

So yes, I think you're overstating the risk vastly. Again, real estate is an incredibly structured transaction with many fail safes along the way. The seller here is just proposing cutting out the real estate agent (who might take up to 8%) and a bitcoin escrow agent (another 1.5-2% apparently). 10% on $80,000 or $100,000 is real money if you ask me.

Now... would i feel comfortable purchasing a car that way? Maybe... not quite as comfortable, but i would consider it if everything else about he transaction felt legitimate.

Would i buy a rare gold coin that way? Or even just cash in the mail? Not a chance.

But real estate? Sure. Engage a lawyer, spend an hour or two explaining bitcoin, and have them draft a deed that is valid in your state, and you should be fine. If the transaction goes south, they fail to deliver the bitcoins and then attempt to file the deed, you might end up in court, but again, due to the way the blockchain works, whether you had to have it explained to a judge, a jury or a mediator, it would be easy to demonstrate the deed is invalid.

I *HOPE* that helps!  :)

This does help, thank you!

I still don't see how this prevents someone intent on committing fraud from defrauding the buyer?

If I'm engaging a lawyer, why wouldn't I use them as escrow? They're a neutral and trusted party.

You have a title report. You have title insurance. And you have a signed deed in your hand before you even transfer a single bitcoin.

Where is the fraud to occur?

You have more rights with an Escrow company.  You get 3 days right of refusal, for instance.  Your way you give that up.  What if you discover that the entire floor of the upstairs is rotten and needs to be replaced?  Or that the foundation is cracked and has been painted over?  (These are just some examples.)

There are things that are hard to notice until you are actually living there.

Could you legally complete the transaction without an Escrow company?  Yes.

Do I recommend it?  No, especially with Bitcoin, as the seller could then transfer the coins to another account and claim poverty when sued if something goes wrong, even though they still have all the money.

And for a party to be practically INSISTING on having no escrow company?  I wouldn't do that deal with a 10-foot pole.

Any one who buys property without a few precautions such as a lawyer and maybe a surveyor is a fool.
There are many pitfalls and problems that someone who doesnt regulaly transact property can fall victim to.
I thinks its great that you may do a sale using bitcoins, but a buyer needs some form of escrow, confirmation of your title, etc etc
These precautions dont cost much when compared to the price of the property so only a fool would try and complete a sale without them.

In this instance, the OP was only offering a piece of land, not a building.

But either way, you really ought to do a home inspection prior to closing... If you're hoping to find all the issues you might face after you've already closed on the deal, you're doing it wrong.

And the OP originally came in saying they were attempting to cutout the real estate agent. They also said no need for escrow since it's a bitcoin transaction - and again, I will agree that there is more risk to the seller than to the buyer, who again, shouldn't be transferring Bitcoins until they've already assumed possession of the executed deed.

I dont' see the issue, AT ALL.

And i'll go further to say that if this isn't a perfect transaction for Bitcoin, then it it's dead in the water and has no value at all.

As a Realtor, let me chime in.



First of all OP has not posted an address or APN (assessor's parcel number) of the property.

How do you expect anyone to purchase the property if they can't look it up?





Second, escrow is used for a reason.

There are many things that can go wrong in a real estate transaction.


Title company is used to find if the property is free and clear, and to determine the property lines among other things.

Unless escrow is used, you really are taking a chance.


Even with a signed contract, the contract could be invalidated due to any number of issues!
Including: Competency, age, state of mind, technicalities, etc.

Without escrow buyer loses any and all leverage!


A title company will not protect you from that! Once you send the Bitcoin, you are at the mercy of a contract which could be found to be invalid for a number of reasons!

Not a good idea!

Hence, the need for legal counsel! OP mentioned doing the transaction without any, but hardly pushed for it. Of course, they seem to have been scared off from this thread a long time ago!

Even with escrow, the items you bring up (sellers competency) would be things that arise after funds have been distributed at closing.

cant tell if trolling or serios

I got so fed up with this thread I just took down my listing entirely.  The property is no longer for sale, not for bitcoin or for USD.  I think I'll go fishing.  Carry on as you were.

I think I ought to be clear about something. I'm not considering the home falling apart or the land being a toxic waste dump. That's not a concern to me as OP has offered to let any purchaser inspect it so there's no issue there.

What we disagree with is who the risk lies with. Why do you feel there's any risk to the seller?

You can see after 6 transactions (a few coffees) whether the transaction is complete.


Will you run through an example with me? It'll be a multi part post after your reply.

Let's say you're not a French citizen (which I suspect you're not). I tell you that I have some land to sell. It's a fantastic price.

I'll even let you camp on it for a week before you buy it just to make sure you like it.

We go to an Office de Terre* (an official and much cheaper way of transferring property in France for those in the know) and I have them confirm the land title transfer and we sit and watch you make the coin transfer to my address (which I've given you, naturally). When I see your coins are confirmed (or not, because I'm a busy man and I have meetings to go), the official gives you the title deeds and then I leave.

Would you say that's a pretty good way to go about it and that 'avoids escrow' although the Office de Terre seems to me to be acting as an escrow?

(Also, why do you keep saying that the OP has probably vanished. He regularly replies :/)

Don't mean to spam, but also selling Chicago Gold Coast Condo:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=349197.0

I'm a licensed real estate broker in Illinois, so this would be a legit, legally-backed transaction. My reputation and license is on the line.

We may be able to help... Realestateforbitcoin.com (http://Realestateforbitcoin.com)