Lakefront property for sale, bitcoin accepted

[jratcliff63367]

Some of the responses to this thread have been a little bit bizarre and I'm not sure how to respond to them.

Whether or not you know how real-estate transactions work is beside the point of the core question at hand.

The core question is what is the difference between paying for something, anything, with bitcoin versus the equivalent amount in cash?

To me, bitcoin seems preferable.  Cash can be counterfeit, bitcoin, as far as I am aware, once confirmed, cannot.

So, let's sidestep the technical details of how one goes about buying and selling a piece of real-estate and answer this specific question.

What makes accepting bitcoin more or less dangerous than accepting cash?

Is it the amount?  Like, as if accepting $100 worth of bitcoin is no big deal, but accepting $10,000 worth of bitcoin is?

Since, apparently, according to the people in this thread, I 'know nothing' about bitcoin, please explain it to me.

Why is cash better than bitcoin?

[LoudPacKK]

I think it's amazing.
If you sale any RE through bitcoin please do update us.

It is no different than money, either... assets are assets... I think there was just a miscommunication between a few of the other posters and you, John.  Technicalities and phrasing aside, this seems like a really cool hassle free way to exchange Real Estate if anyone is ever interested.

Cool stuff

[Inedible]

What makes accepting bitcoin more or less dangerous than accepting cash?

Is it the amount?  Like, as if accepting $100 worth of bitcoin is no big deal, but accepting $10,000 worth of bitcoin is?

Since, apparently, according to the people in this thread, I 'know nothing' about bitcoin, please explain it to me.

Why is cash better than bitcoin?

Not sure if you're just wilfully ignoring the points being raised or if you're trying to convince people that you're naive and can therefore be trusted 

[jratcliff63367]

What makes accepting bitcoin more or less dangerous than accepting cash?

Is it the amount?  Like, as if accepting $100 worth of bitcoin is no big deal, but accepting $10,000 worth of bitcoin is?

Since, apparently, according to the people in this thread, I 'know nothing' about bitcoin, please explain it to me.

Why is cash better than bitcoin?

Not sure if you're just wilfully ignoring the points being raised or if you're trying to convince people that you're naive and can therefore be trusted 

What in the world are you people even talking about?  I've addressed every bizarre point raised in this surreal thread and haven't received a single rational response.  No one bothered to explain in a rational way the difference between accepting cash, goods, or bitcoins, for trade.  So, I give up.  Go back to your healthy trolling guys...

[Inedible]

What makes accepting bitcoin more or less dangerous than accepting cash?

Is it the amount?  Like, as if accepting $100 worth of bitcoin is no big deal, but accepting $10,000 worth of bitcoin is?

Since, apparently, according to the people in this thread, I 'know nothing' about bitcoin, please explain it to me.

Why is cash better than bitcoin?

Not sure if you're just wilfully ignoring the points being raised or if you're trying to convince people that you're naive and can therefore be trusted 

What in the world are you people even talking about?  I've addressed every bizarre point raised in this surreal thread and haven't received a single rational response.  No one bothered to explain in a rational way the difference between accepting cash, goods, or bitcoins, for trade.  So, I give up.  Go back to your healthy trolling guys...

Fine, I'll ask this one simple question:

Are you aware of the risks involved in being the purchaser (i.e. the one handing Bitcoins over)?

[jratcliff63367]

What makes accepting bitcoin more or less dangerous than accepting cash?

Is it the amount?  Like, as if accepting $100 worth of bitcoin is no big deal, but accepting $10,000 worth of bitcoin is?

Since, apparently, according to the people in this thread, I 'know nothing' about bitcoin, please explain it to me.

Why is cash better than bitcoin?

Not sure if you're just wilfully ignoring the points being raised or if you're trying to convince people that you're naive and can therefore be trusted  

What in the world are you people even talking about?  I've addressed every bizarre point raised in this surreal thread and haven't received a single rational response.  No one bothered to explain in a rational way the difference between accepting cash, goods, or bitcoins, for trade.  So, I give up.  Go back to your healthy trolling guys...

Fine, I'll ask this one simple question:

Are you aware of the risks involved in being the purchaser (i.e. the one handing Bitcoins over)?

Yes, they are the same risks involved in handing me a big bag of cash and walking away, right?  Is your question a general question about the risks involved in bitcoin or the risks involved in doing cash transactions for a piece of property?

In other words, can you explain to me the risk/difference between a bitcoin transaction and a cash in hand transaction? To me they seem effectively the same.  Well, cash is a bit riskier because it can be counterfeited while bitcoins, once fully confirmed by the network, cannot.

[Inedible]

What makes accepting bitcoin more or less dangerous than accepting cash?

Is it the amount?  Like, as if accepting $100 worth of bitcoin is no big deal, but accepting $10,000 worth of bitcoin is?

Since, apparently, according to the people in this thread, I 'know nothing' about bitcoin, please explain it to me.

Why is cash better than bitcoin?

Not sure if you're just wilfully ignoring the points being raised or if you're trying to convince people that you're naive and can therefore be trusted  

What in the world are you people even talking about?  I've addressed every bizarre point raised in this surreal thread and haven't received a single rational response.  No one bothered to explain in a rational way the difference between accepting cash, goods, or bitcoins, for trade.  So, I give up.  Go back to your healthy trolling guys...

Fine, I'll ask this one simple question:

Are you aware of the risks involved in being the purchaser (i.e. the one handing Bitcoins over)?

Yes, they are the same risks involved in handing me a big bag of cash and walking away, right?  Is your question a general question about the risks involved in bitcoin or the risks involved in doing cash transactions for a piece of property?

In other words, can you explain to me the risk/difference between a bitcoin transaction and a cash in hand transaction? To me they seem effectively the same.  Well, cash is a bit riskier because it can be counterfeited while bitcoins, once fully confirmed by the network, cannot.

You first started off by saying no escrow was required.

Then it turns out you have a person that doesn't release the funds until the paperwork is concluded (which as far as I'm concerned is the escrow).

Assuming the person doing the holding of funds is neutral and is liable if they release funds when the documents are forged/fake or the person who has the documents isn't the person who owns the property then that is escrow.

If you're saying that if you were buying a bridge off me and we both met at a coffee shop and I showed you ID that I was Mr. Bridge Owner then:

1) You transferred the bitcoins over to me
2) We then sign the documents

You've just been scammed.

I'm going to head to the bathroom for a moment whilst you look over the documents. You have my fake ID but I don't care. I'll make some more.

You're left with a bridge that isn't yours or mine and I'm away with Bitcoins you can't recover because you don't even know who I am.

Where's your recourse?

[lucasjkr]

I think incredible is not understanding the process at hand;

You go up check out the property. You like it, you engage the title company to do a title search. Once they determine that the selling party has right to transfer to the buying party and that everyone is moving forward, title insurance is bought. Then the closing occurs, generally funds are wired to an attorney trust account, documents signed, and then funds are released. If it was done for bitcoin, you could either send funds to an escrow agent, or work out another deal that is to everyone's agreement - I could imagine the seller could sign over the title, hand it to his or the buyers attorney under the instruction that it's not to be released until x number of confirmations have been received.

You're making this far more complicated than it had to be. And really, taken to its conclusion, doesn't do much for bitcoin - I mean, we already see people are wary of spending bitcoins on miners, either due to concerns of fraud or the worry that the miner won't produce the original amount of bitcoins spent over its lifetime, now we see someone afraid of conducting simple real estate transaction for bitcoin, which is itself one of the most structured transactions around. Pretty soon, one might ask if bitcoin is such a great currency replacement, why is it that people that own it are afraid to spend it, for fear of brain defrauded, etc?

[Magazine]

Lol, I don't know why people argue over the risks of buying something when they will never buy it themselves so they have no need to worry about it and need to stop earning dat post count.

I'm sure if someone would buy this property then the purchaser will obviously know the right way to go and safeguard themselves from any possible scam.

[Inedible]

I think incredible is not understanding the process at hand;

You go up check out the property. You like it, you engage the title company to do a title search. Once they determine that the selling party has right to transfer to the buying party and that everyone is moving forward, title insurance is bought. Then the closing occurs, generally funds are wired to an attorney trust account, documents signed, and then funds are released. If it was done for bitcoin, you could either send funds to an escrow agent, or work out another deal that is to everyone's agreement - I could imagine the seller could sign over the title, hand it to his or the buyers attorney under the instruction that it's not to be released until x number of confirmations have been received.

You're making this far more complicated than it had to be. And really, taken to its conclusion, doesn't do much for bitcoin - I mean, we already see people are wary of spending bitcoins on miners, either due to concerns of fraud or the worry that the miner won't produce the original amount of bitcoins spent over its lifetime, now we see someone afraid of conducting simple real estate transaction for bitcoin, which is itself one of the most structured transactions around. Pretty soon, one might ask if bitcoin is such a great currency replacement, why is it that people that own it are afraid to spend it, for fear of brain defrauded, etc?

Have you read the thread or only the last few posts? 

[Inedible]

Lol, I don't know why people argue over the risks of buying something when they will never buy it themselves so they have no need to worry about it and need to stop earning dat post count.

I'm sure if someone would buy this property then the purchaser will obviously know the right way to go and safeguard themselves from any possible scam.

The worry is that some naive person gets scammed.

Goodness knows Bitcoin's reputation doesn't need further tarnishing.

"Bitcoin allows you to get scammed!" - No, not being aware of the risks allows you to get scammed.

[Magazine]

I'm sure no one will buy this anyway, and if they have that many BTC then they should know better to complete a real estate sale with safe guards.

[Inedible]

I'm sure no one will buy this anyway, and if they have that many BTC then they should know better to complete a real estate sale with safe guards.

I hope someone does buy it.

I just hope they do it safely.

[RodeoX]

What in the world are you people even talking about?  I've addressed every bizarre point raised in this surreal thread and haven't received a single rational response. ...

Well, you are on bitcointalk. 

[lucasjkr]

I read the thread, and it wasn't apparent that the op was saying " hey, send me bitcoins and I'll sell you some land". And if anyone does that, they deserve the loss just as much as they would if they mailed him suitcase of cash. And if there is anyone willing to send suitcases of cash, let me know, I'll give you my address...

He's not saying "to make things faster, let's not even do a title search", just trying to cut out the broker, which can take 5-8 % of the sale, and just targeting a community that likely has more than a few people sitting on large amounts of newfound wealth. Seems smart.  And it seems like contracts could be created to protect all parties involved

Ie :

Buyer proves they own coins by signing a message with the wallets key that owns those coins

Contract prepared which transfers property upon the transfer of the coins from that wallet to the address the seller specifies. Both sign. Deed prepared and executed. Bitcoins transferred. If the buyer fails to transfer the coins, then the transfer is null and void - the seller can easily show, via the block chain, that he never received the value that was originally agreed upon.

Again, very straight forward transaction. If bitcoin can't accommodate that, them I'd wonder what it's utility is.

[Inedible]

I read the thread, and it wasn't apparent that the op was saying " hey, send me bitcoins and I'll sell you some land". And if anyone does that, they deserve the loss just as much as they would if they mailed him suitcase of cash. And if there is anyone willing to send suitcases of cash, let me know, I'll give you my address...

He's not saying "to make things faster, let's not even do a title search", just trying to cut out the broker, which can take 5-8 % of the sale, and just targeting a community that likely has more than a few people sitting on large amounts of newfound wealth. Seems smart.  And it seems like contracts could be created to protect all parties involved

Ie :

Buyer proves they own coins by signing a message with the wallets key that owns those coins

Contract prepared which transfers property upon the transfer of the coins from that wallet to the address the seller specifies. Both sign. Deed prepared and executed. Bitcoins transferred. If the buyer fails to transfer the coins, then the transfer is null and void - the seller can easily show, via the block chain, that he never received the value that was originally agreed upon.

Again, very straight forward transaction. If bitcoin can't accommodate that, them I'd wonder what it's utility is.

Did you miss the part where OP said he didn't need escrow?

He's right - he doesn't need escrow but the Bitcoin holder might want that security.

I suspect 99% of the people on this thread aren't from Missouri so will have no solid understanding of the law there so they'll want to have a lawyer involved. As soon as a lawyer is involved you have escrow facilities.

You could just trust OP to get "someone to do the title-deed process" but how are you going to confirm the title deeds are real?

I personally wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a general (special warranty deed), a quitclaim deed or a fiduciary deed far less determine if the documents were even genuine. They might as well be immigration papers as far as I'm able to tell.

[lucasjkr]

I saw that, but again, didn't find that alarming. I'm positive a transaction of this sort could be accomplished with nothing but buyer, seller and title company. Of course the buyer is going to Missouri. Who in the world world but something sight unseen like that?

My vote is that you're way too skeptical. He's not saying abandon all the normal steps in a transaction, just the  ones that cost a lot.

If I had property to sell, I would feel 100% comfortable doing it this way:

You come visit the property.
If you like it, we draw up contract stating that for x bitcoins recieved, the propert is yours.
I sign deed citing or encompassing that contract and hand it to you. You send me coins.

So straight forward, I can't believe you're making an issue of it.

If I don't provide you deed and contract, you don't send coins. Buyer is protected

If I do that and you don't provide coins, it's simple to demonstrate that. Hence you cAnt file anything at the courthouse claiming that property. You want to fight it? I'll hire Gavin as an expert witness for the day to explain to the jury that if no coins appeared in my wallet, I Didn't get paid.

Again. Real estate is one of the most straightforward and structured transactions out there. If be more frightful buying a miner from asicminer than I would buying land, if I had that many bitcoins.

[Inedible]

I saw that, but again, didn't find that alarming. I'm positive a transaction of this sort could be accomplished with nothing but buyer, seller and title company. Of course the buyer is going to Missouri. Who in the world world but something sight unseen like that?

My vote is that you're way too skeptical. He's not saying abandon all the normal steps in a transaction, just the  ones that cost a lot.

If I had property to sell, I would feel 100% comfortable doing it this way:

You come visit the property.
If you like it, we draw up contract stating that for x bitcoins recieved, the propert is yours.
I sign deed citing or encompassing that contract and hand it to you. You send me coins.

So straight forward, I can't believe you're making an issue of it.

If I don't provide you deed and contract, you don't send coins. Buyer is protected

If I do that and you don't provide coins, it's simple to demonstrate that. Hence you cAnt file anything at the courthouse claiming that property. You want to fight it? I'll hire Gavin as an expert witness for the day to explain to the jury that if no coins appeared in my wallet, I Didn't get paid.

Again. Real estate is one of the most straightforward and structured transactions out there. If be more frightful buying a miner from asicminer than I would buying land, if I had that many bitcoins.

I think you've missed my point.

Also, in the world of Bitcoin, if you're not skeptical, you're broke. I'm all for selling property for Bitcoin - check the other thread where I'm out and out defending someone trying to sell property (only they're not leaving a potential buyer at any risk).

Again, the seller holds no risk here. I don't know how often I need to repeat this. Of course the seller is happy without escrow - they have nothing to lose, whether they really do own the property or not.

Perhaps an example will work better for you. I have a 2 million dollar house I'd like to practically give away to you for a mere 10 Bitcoins. It's a bargain. Just think of all the profit you'll make when you sell it.

All you have to do is come over to the UK and we'll get the Tenant Rights of Property* signed over to you. You can sign the blockchain proving that you own the coins and once you've transferred the Bitcoins over I'll give you the title deeds. It can all be done at a licensed and registered Title Deed Exchange Office*.

I can't believe you won't take up this fantastic opportunity to make almost 2 Million dollars - and you call me skeptical.

[lucasjkr]

I don't think I'm missing anything. You're over complicating and suggesting the OP was advocating the buyer throw every caution to the wind, which he never seemed to be. No matter, he's long gone so there's no reason to continue arguing it.

[BitchicksHusband]

It's because the seller said, "No escrow company".  Later, he said that the title company would provide the escrow services, but title companies don't really do that (source: I used to write title software). 

Any buyer doing this transaction should use an escrow company.  That's what they are for, even if you are using bitcoins.  And escrow companies are notoriously Luddite, so you definitely should find one that doesn't mind a bitcoin transaction before you start.