Bitcoin Forum

We have seen some members complaining about this, but here is the proof.

http://www.infowars.com/chase-bank-limits-cash-withdrawals-bans-international-wire-transfers/


Question

1. Why limit amount of cash withdrawls?
2. Why no international transfers?


Let the speculations begin.......

Exposure mitigation due to government shutdown.

Government shutdown is almost over. The fake crisis has been 11th hour averted as we all knew it would be. See you again on Feb 17th for the next manufactured installment.

Limits on cash withdrawals are everywhere. Most bankers are not comfortable having large quantity of cash readily available in their drawers. It just increases the risk of crime. In every bank I know if you want to withdraw a large quantity of cash, you have to call in advance to make sure there will be cash when you want it. Most often, they also have limits. Like with a credit card, you can't withdraw over a given amount per week. With the fight against tax evasion and money laundering always intensifying, we may expect the current situation to get worse.

What I don't understand is the complete ban of all international wire transfers. that's crazy. Could there be something wrong with Chase? They've got to have plenty of customers doing business abroad, and they'll have no other choice but to change bank.

Will they have the choice to change bank much longer? Chase don't just sound like they're trying to protect the robbery of branches, it sounds as if they're worried about the rate that legitimate money is flowing out of the bank. With Info Wars as a definitive corroboration though... not entirely sure. Major FUD merchants, true and false.

Does chase supply any type of account with international bank wires enabled, or are they blocked for every type of account now period?

if so, thats pretty bad. I guess you can still do a direct deposit into another account at another bank though, if I was a chase customer I'd do that like ASAP. I can't believe this is even legal, let alone something a solvent bank would consider doing.

I saw something similar happen at a local, state-licensed bank:


If you want to know what happens next, study the recent history of Argentina.

This is just Chase doing some creative marketing.  Trying to upsell customers to a more expensive account:


So yes, Chase sucks.  But this thread is mostly FUD.

Simple.  Chase has been acquired by MtGox, with the Japanese team now handling all money transfers across the combined entity :D



Yep.  Other banks (e.g. Citibank) do similar random things, like arbitrarily restrict the amount you can wire out according to your account type.  For basic accounts they force you to go into a branch in person if you want to go above a certain thresholds, whereas gold accounts have no such limits.

Here's the same thing happening at a small, state-licenced bank:

https://online.1stnb.com/LoginAdv.aspx (https://online.1stnb.com/LoginAdv.aspx)
The key here is "Due to recent regulatory changes." This isn't a Chase issue. I bet that we're going to hear more of this happening in the next few days/weeks. Before long, it's not going to be possible for the average person to wire dollars outside the country.

You can always use WU/moneygram, can you not?

EDIT: this doesn't explain the cash withdraw limit, though.

Western Union is very expensive compared to wires, and comes with far lower limits on the amount you can transfer.

I wonder what the specific regulation that changed on 10/1/13 is, anybody have any idea how to find out?

Well, if you've got a large amount, you can go to a different bank that does allow wires and move from there, right?

Also, how about international money order? Wouldn't that work? I agree this is increasing the cost of moving money, but regulation always increases prices, so  thats nothing to be excited about.

Sure, as long as such banks continue to exist.

I'm tempted to create a bet as to whether or not any banks will offer individuals the ability to send funds out of the US via international six months from now.

well that would suck royally. If you can't wire out, then money moving across country borders would either have to be in the form of credit, or in the form of cash or money order.

Seems we have some conflicting information here. Either it's for business reasons or regulatory ones. Unless of course new regulations allow banks to set limits only on certain types of accounts…

Transplanted from a different sub-forum:
----
Yup.  Capital controls.  Now I remember another big reason why Bitcoin grabbed my attention so forcefully back in 2011.

  http://iranian.com/posts/view/post/22646

I have to take exception with this article's:

  "The bottom line is that banks think your money is their money and..."

The reason that banks think that is because it is true.  Technically and legally.

Banks can use the money that the depositors gave them in more or less any way the see fit though they have to abide by certain restrictions.  The reason Glass-Stegall was repealed was to relax those restrictions so they could gamble depositor's funds on derivatives at 50-1 leverage and such through their investment banking wing.

Worse yet, as I understand things (potentially tinfoil-hat things but maybe not) the derivatives counter-parties are top tier creditors and get made whole before bank depositors in the event of a bankruptcy.  The rational is that it halt a chain reaction of institutional failures...or so the story goes.

I've also heard that the way 'they' will get around the FDIC issue is to convert deposits into shares in the bank (as a non-option.)  Then FDIC is under no obligation to save the 'investors' as the bank craters.

Who knows how much truth there is to this stuff.  It seems entirely possible to me, however, and I actually have more confidence in Bitcoin than I do in my bank deposits and I hold more value in Bitcoin than I do in banks at this point.  By a wide margin (though in fairness this is primarily attributable to the rise in BTC valuations.)

Or in the form of Bitcoin, which wouldn't suck royally.

The answer for me is to keep less money in the bank.  I want to be able to liquidate my entire account whenever I say so. This looks to me like an attempt to avoid bank runs. Why would a bank do that? Do they know something I don't?
I would not chance with those bozos. I would trust them with no more than I can withdraw.

Also, I'd be willing to take you up on that bet.

We have seen some members complaining about this, but here is the proof.

http://www.infowars.com <  common , what's nexty Russia Today ?

Go to reddit there are plenty of people that explained to which type of accounts this limits apply and to which not.
Stop the FUD.

So you are saying the screenshots of the letters are forged or not real.  Please try to back up YOUR FUD before posting nonsense accusations.  Forum members reported this happening to them weeks before this article came out. Now we can see screenshots of the chase letters.  What additional proof or evidence do you provide that discounts this story?  (Reddit?.....oh please....tell me you are joking)



FYI

--Also the article has now been updated with additional information--

"We are now receiving reports from business partners who we know well that they are being told by their banks that similar regulations to those adopted by Chase are coming within the next few months."

Yes, it is happening.
Yes, they are sending out letters.
Yes, people are getting the letters.

Why?

If you want to be able to go over the limit and/or send the wires then you must upgrade to a more expensive account.

The FUD is all the speculation beyond that.

Yes, and some of us can actually read them.

The first shot says the account of the person who received the letter can no longer do wire transfers.

The second shot says "business SAVINGS accounts" will no longer be able to do wire transfers.  Other accounts, presumably with higher fees, can continue to do them.

So a bank is squeezing its customers and raising its fees.  It sucks but is far from the apocalypse.

Not all FUD is false. FUD is not synonymous with untrue. I refuse to observe what InfoWars peddles, because it's always FUD, but at least some of what they come out with is true (and then the presenter starts crying and asking what all our children will say in 20 years when everyone's a robot etc).

Reddit, on the other hand, is not what it used to be. Similarly to not all FUD being false, "someone on reddit said it" is not necessarily reliably true. Reddit had a reputation for people telling uncommon truths, about 5 years ago. Now, they have Arnold Schwarzenegger posting training tips.

Makes sense BurtW. 


Speculating on the "reasons" for these policy changes is anyone's guess.  Like I posted in the OP, let the speculation begin.

I haven't posted my thoughts on the subject yet.  But I do tend to believe there are (more) (economic) serious issues that we haven't even heard of yet.  I believe the government has something to do with Chase's updated policy.  If you remember the economic crisis of 2008, there was a lot of behind the scenes meddling with banks like Lehman Brothers, Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley by the US government. We didn't hear about this till a few years later.  I think more meddling is in the works.

Exactly.

People need to study history of capital controls, why they come about, and how they are executed.

When real capital controls come, they will not send anyone a nice warning letter beforehand.  They will impose them overnight by executive decree, simultaneously across the entire system, not just one bank.

The United States is actually one of the biggest tax havens in the world (http://www.moneynews.com/Kleinfeld/tax-haven-US-investor/2013/07/08/id/513734).  Any hint at capital controls would kill that gold-laying goose immediately.  It is not a move that makes sense for USG to do at this time, especially given that the rest of the world is still accepting limitless USD conjured out of thin air in exchange for real products.  Capital controls are typically imposed to control the flow of foreign/hard currency, not the domestic currency issued by the government.  In fact, the USG wants foreign bagholders to receive millions of wires of worthless USDs, for as long as posssible, as long as those USD don't return to the domestic market to cause inflation.

Chase would not risk losing business in this manner unless they know other banks will be moving in this direction as well. Capital controls are never good. Not a great sign.

The indications are that that's exactly what's happening, other consumer banks are falling in behind JPM Chase. You can pay fees for a premium account, or course. Whats gets me is you can't even receive international payments with a standard account, those that can't pay are going to be using Western Union, MoneyGram and our beloved BTC.

Many small banks are following:
http://www.vystarcu.org/home/news/current/intwires

IMPORTANT NOTICE:

Outgoing International Wires Discontinued October 1, 2013

Beginning October 1, 2013, VyStar Credit Union will no longer accept and process outgoing international wire transfers.

Please Note: All incoming international wires and all domestic wires (in U.S. currency to U.S. financial institutions) are not affected by this change and will still be accepted.

We regret having to make this change; however, it is in response to increased regulation and in a cooperative effort to protect the liability of your credit union and all its members. Our action to no longer process outgoing international wire transfers is a necessary step to reduce risk.




https://www.uhcu.org/Site-Alerts/Member-Notification

International Wire Discontinuation Information
Effective October 19, 2013, United Heritage Credit Union will no longer provide wire transfer services (remittances) to locations outside the United States.

United Heritage Credit Union’s decision to discontinue outgoing international wire services is resultant from a new consumer protection regulation. United Heritage Credit Union will be able to service your international wire transfer needs until October 19, 2013 and we recommend that you use this time to research alternative means to send funds to foreign locations. Companies providing international wire services include Western Union® Consumer and Western Union® Business Solutions Online FX. Please visit westernunion.com for more details. Please review their information to determine what best suits your international wire needs.

If you have any questions, please stop by a United Heritage branch or call our Telephone Service Center at 512.435.4545, 903.597.7484 or 800.531.2328 during normal business hours.


..resultant from a new consumer protection regulation..
It usually starts like that when gov. imposes control on your money with protection regulation..

Did I miss something? I wasn't aware of anything like that.
I guess we need a lawyer here. What has changed? If there's new regulation, it's got to be somewhere.

Apparently it's a provision of Dodd-Frank.

Positive information here:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2013/10/17/jpmorgan-chase-denies-new-capital-controls-on-accounts/

Our fears may be unfounded.

We didn't just imagine small banks and credit unions eliminating international wires entirely.

From the article:

  "Chase said it is not exerting new capital controls on customer accounts."

I would say that that is probably true.  What is happening is that regulatory bodies are 'exerting new capital controls' on people through financial institutions and by increasing certain pressures.  Whether this is by accident or design is a legitimate question, but it is capital control, it is working, and the end effect is certainly being felt.

I'm feeling it mightily right now since my wire from Mt. Gox has been held up for several months, and in order to capitalize on my BTC speculation I am being pressured to give up multiple high quality copies of sensitive identity documents to parties who I cannot fully trust.

In my case I actually WANT my transactions to be monitored and analyzed because my activity in Bitcoin-land is entirely legal and I have every intention of declaring my profits legally.  (It would be retarded to give the authorities an excuse to fuck me by not following the law to the letter, but that's just my opinion.)  Sending money through my bank who has 'vetted' me fully and reports activity to enforcement bodies should be perfectly sufficient to preclude both identity and reporting fraud.  Yet intermediaries are still being pressured to hold duplicate copies of my dox.  I can see no reason for it other than flat out harassment by regulators and/or efforts to influence capital flows.

BTW, I consider my identity dox themselves to be worth tens of $k because that would probably be what it would cost me if they were released into the wild over a life-time of fighting the issues that would be likely to crop up.  I've sent my dox to Mt. Gox only.  I would much rather have not sent them to anyone, but if they get ripped off now, I will know for certain that Mt. Gox is at fault...for whatever good that might do...

The Daily Reckoning newsletter dated Oct. 17 cites Simon Black (sovereign man) as their source for the story. I can't yet find it on Black's site though. This may be echo chamber propagation of something minor (or not).
Some of their details seem different from what is reported so far in this thread.

""These government agencies with the catchy, high-sounding names," writes the Sovereign Man's Simon Black, "are always the most dangerous. After all, it was the 'Committee for Public Safety' that was responsible for wanton genocide during the post-revolution Reign of Terror in France.

"Recently, the CFPB 'encouraged' retail banks in the Land of the Free to 'help' their customers regarding international wire transfers. And by 'help,' they mean prohibit."

Mr. Black is referring to letters sent by JPMorgan Chase's to its customers. Effective Nov. 17, depositors who bank with them won't be able to send international money wires, nor will they be able to withdraw more than $50,000 of their money in cash per statement cycle.

---- photo of Chase letter appeared here ----

"This is the very nature of capital controls," slams Black, "restricting the free flow of capital across borders until it is trapped inside the country and forcibly denominated in a rapidly devaluing currency."

It's not only Chase that's imposing wire transfer restrictions. HSBC is preventing its depositors from wiring money to their accounts overseas. That is, if Americans still have bank accounts overseas. In 2010, the Foreign Tax Compliance Act or FATCA was slipped into a last-minute piece of legislation -- the HIRE Act. It forces foreign banks to follow IRS reporting requirements for any American depositors. In response, most foreign banks are simply not letting Americans open accounts with them because it's not worth the trouble."

watching from the UK, in the last week or so, China has made a statement about a 'De-Americanised' world, the debt limit has been raised, Obamacare continues, there is talk of Obamacare fines being deducted from bank accounts, an  EBT card 'glitch' occurred, the US credit rating is in question, this Chase thing is about to kick in, and the EU has just announced it's going to use the yuan to trade... lots of things in a quick succession seem to be happening...

Yup.  Denial (which is rife here even on bitcointalk.org forum) could turn to outright panic in about one day under the right set of circumstances.  More likely, though, things will take the form of the boiling frog if the management of perception engineering is any good.

It is this type of crap which makes me an even bigger Bitcoin believer (which I didn't think was possible). Fiat is in its death throes - Bitcoin is the future!

What was the EBT card glitch?

It's like a fixed limit debit card in the US, so that people on unemployment relief can only spend their money in fascist, uh, I mean corporate government partner stores. Earlier last week, cards stopped working altogether in some states. Then this week, the inverse failure took place in Louisiana; the limits on the cards stopped working and people went on crazy shopping sprees. The limits were reinstated when some people were mid frenzy, there've been photos published of all the abandoned Walmart shopping carts with stuff piled as high as you can get.

From a systems engineering perspective it seemed an odd sort of series of errors to me.  It looked to me like something of an empirical experiment especially as word came down from Walmart HQ to just let things roll in the 'wide open' phase.  Just sayin'

Whatever the case, the series of events had some entertainment value...tempered with a tinge of empathy...

That's actually pretty funny. So what happened to the people who spent extra, were their debt cards in the future reduced or something? If not, who paid for the extra expense, walmart, or the government? Also, what exactly constitutes a "corporate government partner store?"

As I understand it the system verified a valid card but did not return a balance of the card.

I have not hear an official answer but my guess is Walmart eats the loss.

There was a report of one person that was checking out as the balance info was restored. ~$700 on a $.49 balance.  Walmart just asked him to leave without food and did not press charges.

i sold a house once and asked for cash. what they did was give me 20,000 write a new check for the value of the original check -20,000 and i just took that check to the next bank and rinse and repeat. i mean i guess 20k is a limit on cash withdrawals but its a pretty large limit. thats just my anecdotal experience though, idk if it represents the norm or not.

1) Walmart can press charges on something like that? TBH I get that its unfair that these people get to spend however much they want, but it seems sorta like Walmart's fault. Also, "Walmart" didn't just ask him to leave, and employee did. Individuals tend to be much less vindictive than faceless corporations.

2) So basically these cards function like Walmart giftcards. Could they be used at other stores, and if so, were those other stores affected by the glitch, and if so, did those other stores have to eat the loss, or did Walmart (which would be sorta weird), or did the USG?

1. yes it's fraud. like writing a bad check.(not a lawyer) I just repeating news reports I have no firsthand knowledge of any of this. Also watching people in checkouts using them legally.


It's more like a debit card for food stamps that the USG deposits into. It can be used in many places but there are restrictions on what kind of items it's good for. Walmart corp did tell the local store to accept the cards without knowing the limit. nowhere else did that I have heard of did that.

So, it sounds like its just a case of Wal-Mart noobing, not the US Government's cards actually glitching out.

Yes and no.

EBT system did go down nation wide. as it came back up one Walmart location accepted the cards when they should not have. system was 1/2 up. Everyone else waited until it was fully back up.

Update:

A later newsletter from a different branch of Agora Financial (publisher of the Daily Reckoning, see above) dated Oct. 18 suggests that the Chase story is overblown, but still not insignificant. Their conclusion:

"Blame it on the Patriot Act and the IRS requirements to flag cash transactions. It's not new... but the regulators are beating up on the banks a bit more these days, so they have to go through the motions of looking "more" compliant. Especially JPM, which has forked over $8 billion in fines since 2011 for assorted misdeeds, both real and imagined."