Bitcoin Forum

Galileo Galilei once said, “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.” Discovering truth about cryptocurrencies (cryptos) and showing that they are not money but faith based schemes that are bound to collapse, is the goal of this article. The first step toward achieving this goal is to explain why economic relations between people, where transfer of ownership rights is taking place, cannot be based on faith, and how, in that regard, cryptos differ from tangible goods and fiat money. After that, we will know what money actually is, and what it represents. Given this knowledge it will become clear why cryptos never were, nor ever will be money. The rest you can read here: https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/

cryptocurrencies in this context is limited to altcoins only and it is very true. nobody can argue that altcoins are even currencies because they clearly are not. some of them are designed to be currencies but so far they have not achieved the goal of any kind of adoption which means they have failed to be a currency.

but since the article does not clarify this little but key difference i am going to call it FUD because bitcoin IS a currency and it not only is designed to be a currency but also it is adopted as a currency by millions of merchants online and offline all around the world and every month hundreds of millions of dollars worth of transactions are taking place for the sole purpose of buying stuff aka using bitcoin as a currency. you can check stats like what BitPay is releasing yearly.

I am not arguing whether bitcoin is designed to be a currency or whether it is adopted as a currency by millions of people. I have simply showed that bitcoin is not money because by exchanging tangible goods for bitcoin, people are abandoning their ownership rights of something tangible and end up with just having a numerical value that has neither value of its own, nor it represents legal entitlement (right) of its holders to some tangible goods like in the case of representative money. This makes bitcoin a ponzi scheme, and not money or currency.

As you already stated, We need to discover, Well, as we all know, Bitcoin is the money of the future because of it's capacity to be use world wide. without having to convert it. People, specially user of this forum has a faith in this technology, because bitcoin technology really surpass all the manual money transfer the we do before.

Very well written argument! I am just surprised that you've taken the pain of creating a whole blog just to prove this point that cryptos are never money and will never be. So it clearly shows that you don't believe in cryptos and trying to infuse us with your belief. I agree with your one point, that crypto is a faith based currency without any inherent value in it. But doesn't the public trust has a value in it? Let it be intangible, but still it has a value.

When you go to a very nice restaurant and the restaurant serves you well, it creates a value for you. So you would want to go back to them and tell your friends to visit them because you were well treated by that restaurant. So the restaurant is creating value for you by serving you well and you are spreading that value to others because you believe that your friends will also get the same treatment if they visit that restaurant. Isn't it a faith based value you are creating for them? Same with the crypto currency. Here we are creating value for the crypto currency by believing in the technology.

Remember the entire market exists for the consumers only. Consumers are the main factor behind any product and services. If there is no consumer exists, probably gold will also not have a value. Today gold is valuable because we consumers believe in it, otherwise it is just a metal like iron.  

So crypto is no different. It can be intangible in nature, but it offers immense values to the consumers. Just to reiterate what Galileo Galilei once said, we haven't yet discovered the true potential of blockchain technology. Once it is discovered, it will be impossible to stop crypto from reaching the moon. Only a fool without any technical knowledge will compare Ponzi with crypto market. So I will gracefully ignore your argument and because it holds no value to me. Good day!

When we talk about the value of X, we are not referring to the technology which is used to exchange, transfer or store X, but we are referring to the practical utility of X. If X is some tangible good, this practical utility is the ability of X to satisfies some human want or need. If X is representative money, this practical utility is the legal ability of X to restore ownership rights of some tangible goods. Bitcoin has none of these abilities, and thus it has no value - it is just an empty numerical value.
Bitcoin technology is simply means to transfer or store numerical values. There is nothing valuable is the ability to transfer or store numerical values. The whole system is just a modern day ponzi scheme.

This sounds remarkably similar to your last thread I saw (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3093125.msg31923540#msg31923540), where there was a great deal of emphasis on "faith" being the primary driver and that faith alone wasn't sufficient.  It may well be true to say that in the hypothetical situation where every single participant lost faith in Bitcoin, it almost certainly would collapse.  Sounds perfectly reasonable.  But that's also true of every currency that has ever existed or will ever exist.  Maybe consider removing the "crypto" part from the title, then add the word "eventually" and I might even be tempted to agree with you.  

But for now and for the foreseeable future, it's difficult to envision a scenario where all the people across the world who have spent countless hours of their time and effort on Bitcoin would suddenly abandon it all.  Every day, more and more people dedicate their focus to improving and evolving this nascent technology.  We've recognised the advantages and we're not giving up.  We don't just believe the world will be a better place for our efforts, we know it.  People work tirelessly on this and will fight to keep it.  But the best part is, we don't really have to fight, because no one can easily stop us anyway.

If anything, fiat is the stuff many of us are losing faith in.  If you look around the world, it's the traditional currencies that are collapsing.  Nation states have begun their race to the bottom, where, despite being a race, there are no winners.  All the "legal ability", as you put it, in the world isn't going to stop places like Venezuela and Puerto Rico annihilating their own economies.  And I suspect others will soon follow, because they all chase perpetual growth at the expense of common sense.  So in a world capable of being that shortsighted and downright stupid, surely we're better off removing ourselves from such insanity?  We're simply going to sit back and watch them destroy themselves.  

As the saying goes there is no such thing as permanent in the world. Even our society has its end and everything in it including our fiat currency our current government will fade. If you read the history there are no kingdoms or dynasties even countries that will last forever they are in the end being destroyed as well as their currencies. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies like fiat will also have its time when it will cease to exist but not in my lifetime but possibly in the future.

Cryptocurrencies have value because people think so, true, the same with fiat. I guess you would have heard about Cowry money or Rai Stones, in the same sense these empty numerical numbers are perceived as money/valuable by the crypto community. At that time the Island of Yap had no fiat system or any currency so they came up with Rai Stones and agreed to give it value and used it as a tool for trading goods and services. Now every country have their own monetary system/policies so today simply empty numerical numbers shouldn't make much sense or have value? Isn't it? There has to be something that makes it different/unique. It's the decentralized Blockchain technology and you don't want to refer to how a distributed ledger based peer-to-peer value transfer system has no utility, not including the unique properties of a few cryptocurrencies. There is value in the ability to save, move, or store numerical numbers in a decentralized, censorship-resistant, trustless, peer-to-peer system. Speculators will abandon when/if price of cryptocurrencies drop sharply, but the ones who believe in creating value in a decentralized environment, don't think would let the cryptocurrencies collapse soon.

Why his sounds so familiar to me? Like I we'heard and seen similar stuff millions times before. And always in moment when the cryptocurrency market is mostly in red.
So predictable.
Everyone has the right to believe what he wants but using Galieo for such cheap interpretation is too much for my taste.

Guys, there is nothing complicated about either Bitcoin or its technology, that is why I used Galileo's saying. Bitcoin is a numerical value and this is so obvious that nobody can challenge it without being foolish. Bitcoin technology is means to transfer or store these numerical values, and this is also so obvious that nobody can challenge it. On the other hand, money is either a commodity or a legally binding instrument that originated from debt. The idea that some anonymous person can create money by brute forcing, transferring and storing numerical values is laughable. The fundamental feature of money is its ability to restore ownership rights that are transferred from tangible goods to money. That is why we have things like credit rating, collateral, foreclosure, laws, legally binding contracts, courts, banks assets, etc. All this things are needed for the creation, circulation and withdrawal of representative money and thus, restoration of ownership rights and the protection of money holders since representative money has ZERO intrinsic value. So, believing that sending empty numerical values over the internet has something to do with money is nonsense of a high order.

Faith is an important thing, even God's existence depends on it.:)

Coming to money and finance, why is gold valuable ? Has it got some miraculous powers over other metals ? It is just because people consider it valuable. The final outcome you are predicting for bitcoins is that they will ultimately collapse. This may happen in future but it will be because of other powerful people wanting it to crash. It has already survived even after so much negativity for more than 8 years and the value had also been increasing consistently. I am still very much hopeful with bitcoins.

Means of exchange is changing with respect to time .in the BC age ,the means of exchange was trade by barter meaning if you need fish and I need rice am willing to give you my fish in exchange for rice.after that age it coins that was use to trade, that era also passed. I. Dispersation is currency note which we also use today.but am glad to let you know that internet have come to stay likewise bitcoin and altcoins is wat will replace currency note. The government can't fight technology .life is becoming more easier via the use of the internet and it paskages like crptocurrency.

If its because of faith that bitcoin would collapse, then every other things that have existed or yet to exist wont have a chance because there is no separation of faith in human endeavor. A lot of companies are fighting so hard to keep peoples faith in the product they offer simple because the moment that faith starts diminishing, that is the end of the product. On the forum here, a lot of people have been popular at some point but later stops believing or have faith on the forum so they move on to something else. If the majority does not believe in the forum again, that is the beginning of the end. Why exactly do you think Facebook and Google stops ICOs its because of the fact that they want the faith to be solid.

However, its not only faith that keeps business floating and that is where you are missing it thinking bitcoin relies only on faith but something practical and possible which is the Blockchain that have proven to be one unique development that have not been seen before and that is why despite the opposition against bitcoin, Blockchain remained untouched and as long as that remains, it will always be an effort without action as bitcoin will continue to be in existence.

Of course, cryptocurrencies will never become money, because majority or almost all of it were never been issued by any government entity. You know money is also faith based, but we were forced by governments to have faith in it. So when the government collapse, so is there issued money. But cryptocurrencies, especially bitcoin will never collapse, as long as there is one or two having faith in it.

The mere fact that you desperately want all of those things to be "needed" is nonsense of the highest order.  Clearly we don't need them at all, otherwise this wouldn't all be working as well as it is.  I don't want my money to represent a system that needs all that centralised crap just to sustain itself and perpetuate the myth that infinite debt is the sensible way to go.  We've already proven beyond doubt that the real value lies in the very basis that we're fully self-sustaining without any reliance on debt.  Every single Bitcoin transaction is further evidence that it works.  

As for ownership, who cares what banks think I do or don't own?  It's none of their business.  Try to take away my ownership of my bitcoins.  Utilise all the contracts, laws, courts and banks you want.  Go on.  Try.  If it's nothing but faith that's keeping my ownership intact, take it away from me.  Show me how easy it is.  Bring to bear every single tool in your arsenal to demonstrate how laughable and worthless it all is.  Take down each and every node on the network who agrees with me that what I own is mine.  I'll wait.

The only way you'll be able to convince the other nodes on the network that I don't own what I own, is if you also manage to convince them they don't own what they own.  Hence, there's an incentive for them to preserve my ownership.

This is more than just faith.  This is consensus.

None of your arguments overcome this.

How pathetic is this dude to go through all this trouble to prove to a community of Bitcoiners that it is a Ponzi scheme.  ;D

Take some time and look at his post history. He is not even hiding the fact that he is shilling & trolling against Bitcoin. If this

was any other forum, his account would have been banned or deleted. Luckily we know that Credit cards and Bank accounts

are just "digital" numbers on a private ledger, so they must be Ponzi schemes too... right.  ;D ;D ;D 8)

I'm more than happy for them to continue.  This thread is perfect, as was the last one I linked to earlier. 

Our response has been as robust as our network.  If the average person were to read all this, they'd recognise right away why Bitcoin needs to exist.  I commend this lunatic person for allowing us the repeated opportunities with every new thread to completely decimate their arguments about what makes fiat "work", thereby proving why Bitcoin is superior in almost every way.   :D

I don't think any one is really arguing that altcoins are currencies in the traditional sense, most people tend to believe they are assets and as such if they are successful their value should rise over the long term. Bitcoin is more similar to gold than fiat.

the facts provided about the fall of cryptos are logical ones and in some point I do agree with you, in addition the vulnerability of cryptos regarding the speculation is also one of the main problems to fall and be labeled as ponzi scheme.

Fiat Money?  Less than 10% of "Money" in terms of what people "think" is there; has actually been printed or minted.

Most modern economic systems are based on Fractional Reserve Banking where Money is as Fictitious and Non-Tangible as Bitcoin.

You think when you get you're $500,000 mortgage loan from Bank of America, that $500,000 Check actually has the cash to back it?

It's the same smoke and mirrors as cryptocurrencies.

Cheers!

Strato

There is nothing complicated about Ponzi scheme - once you enter into it by throwing away your tangible goods or legally binding instruments (fiat money), the only way for you to benefit from it is if someone else also voluntarily throws away their tangible goods or legally binding instruments.

On the other hand, one you receive fiat money on your bank account you have an instrument that borrowers are legally forced to use until all their debt is paid off. So, you are not dependent on someone's voluntary actions and sooner or later you will come into the possession of tangible goods that borowers are forced to sell to get money for their loan payments. That is why banking system is not a Ponzi scheme.

In the bitcoin system, are you dependent on someone's voluntary actions or is someone legally forced to use bitcoins?  Well, obviously the former is true. That is why bitcoin system is a Ponzi scheme.

It is up to you mate on whatever you want to believe in, but for some of us, we believe in this new technology and will be prior not to be too late. And may I ask if why is a negative person like you doing in a place like this?

I am trying to warn people that "this time is NOT different" and that Cryptomania is just one of many such financial manias that victimized investors, from Tulipmania right up to Dot-com and beyond.  The difference is of course, that with the Tulipmania for e.g., you at least had actual tulips you could plant in your garden. With the Cryptomania you have useless numerical values.

I never looked at the crypto as money because it doesn't even have physical form to which I can hold in my hand. The money is different thing and we know very well when we have it physically held in our hands. The smell of it, the color of it and the whole appearance of it is just unforgivable and when you have it you know you feel confident about your survival. Crypto currencies are however very uncertain about the whole thing and they dont even have the stable value. So whatever this article is reading I just perfect one. I agree completely on this Galleli guy who made such assumptions about the cryptocurrency. We can have it to earn money however that is really different thing and we can know it from the whole scenario thats currently going on.

Well, if somebody refers to "Tulipmania" then you know how late it is...

Again, the only thing this demonstrates is your willingness and desire to be coerced and forced by those in authority for the sake of perpetuating the myth that debt is somehow necessary.  If you need those things to sleep soundly at night, go right ahead and keep sucking at that statist teat.  

We don't want or need authority to function.  We don't want or need laws to function.  We don't want or need debt to function.  You, on the other hand, clearly need them, because your system is weak without authority, laws and debt.  We're stronger without them.  

If you tried to introduce those things to Bitcoin, it would actually diminish its function.  All it would add is bureaucracy, delays, cost and a controlling entity that would break fungibility and make it possible to block, reverse or otherwise tamper with transactions.  If not having any authority, laws and debt is the price we pay to have what we have, I'm sold.  

Thank you for your efforts in trying to "warn" me, but all you're really doing is convincing me that it's you who needs to heed the warnings.  It's your system that's under threat of collapse.  Not ours.  As soon as enough people realise they don't need to believe every lie they've ever been told to have an economy (all the lies you're repeating here, in fact), the time of national currencies is over.  It may take a few decades, though, sadly.

Crypto currency is comparable to an asset where your money will work for you. It is being traded and speculated wherein people's faith determines its value which follows the law of supply and demand. It gives freedom to the wealth of the people. The future is already here and this technological advancement is the discovery of this century to transcend how we transact with our finances.

The only reason the representative money exists is because legal system exists. Without the latter you wouldn't have the ability to restore the ownership rights of tangible goods which are transferred from these goods to representative money(useless paper or digits) at the moment of exchange. No one in their right mind would give away their land, food, cars, houses and other tangible goods for a paper that cannot be legally enforced. That's why we have banks assets, evaluation of the credit risk, collateral, foreclosure, laws, legally binding contracts , legal coercion and courts behind representative money. The crypto world is inherent negation of that. In this virtual world people literally give away their land, food, cars, houses and other tangible goods for a paper in digital form that cannot be legally enforced. I am trying to warn people that this won't last and that crypto system is bound to collapse.

A very good statement. But crypto cannot be a currency because crypto itself is a digital asset so the collapse stated in the article will not happen as long as the internet to access a crypto wallet still exists. People there assume that crypto is a digital currency but for me personally crypto is not currency but crypto is a digital asset as well as stock. The articles you share will not affect users of crypto to divert and even stop investing in crypto because investment in crypto form is more promising than other investments.

the price is not just based on faith..

there is actually a real underlying cost to make a bitcoin.. that is mining. the higher the difficulty gets the more expensive it is to make fresh coins
this is going to continue for many many years

there are many "resistance points" where certain people refuse to sell below a certain price because they will lose money otherwise.
miners have a resistance price as described above
'early adopters' have a price they prefer which is normally alot lower because they are already in profit from buying early
'recent adopters' are the newer people who bought from the early adopters who have a higher price because they paid more

mining costs can be calculated easily. right now its about ~$8100/btc for mining using a bunch of s9's with FREE electric

however
this can get complicated  if they are given too much in tx fee, their need to hold a certain resistant point based purely on the mining cost for a block reward becomes less strong.

they wont care about 12.5btc costing them ~$101k(~$8k/btc), instead they will start seeing 14btc(1.5btc from fees) costing them $101k. resulting in them valuing their resistant point for 1btc being less than $8k and instead $7.4k

EG
if a block of say 2000tx had a tx fee of 0.00625 each tx. to give a block total fees of 12.5
then the block yields 25btc total(12.5reward+12.5 fee) pools with a mining cost of ~$101k would divide by 25 which is ~$4k
per btc. and thus would happily sell their btc for down to $4k each, and still break even

right now from doing some maths.. mining has a resistance point of $7k-$8k based on cost of mining with the variance of the tx  fee added
early adopters can push the price down low and its hard to really know when, if, how much they will sell for

early adopters have a resistance point of $2k-$6k based on the last 6-12 month resistance points
and late adopters well some got in very late and wont sell unless the price is above $19k because they bought in at that price.

give it enough time and as trades happen you can see when resistance points get tested (patterns of where prices refuse to go any lower) and you start to get an idea of where the safe points are to base the 'true underlying cost value' lays

yea there will be times when the price spikes up high, which is meaningless empty speculative bubble / 'faith' crap.. but if you ignore the highs and only concentrate on the LOWS.. you start to see that bitcoin does actually have reasons why even with alot of pressure that the price refuses to go too low

Isn't that what I literally just said?   ;D

You need all that extraneous crap to make your obsolete fiat system (or "representative money" as you insist on calling it) work.  We're clearly in agreement on that part.  I fully concede that your "money" wouldn't function without those things.  Plus, it isn't even money when more than 95% of it belongs to banks who never even really had it to begin with.  It's a facade.  What you have are some IOUs that someone puts a gun to your head in order to make you pretend they're worth something.  

We want to be the inherent negation of that.  That's the whole point.  It's precisely the reason we're all here.

Maybe let that sink in for a bit.  It seems to be the part you're struggling with.  Everything you say is necessary, we say is useless.



It can be cryptographically enforced.  Which is better.  The legal system is fallible.  Mistakes are often made.  When we trade physical assets for bitcoins and reciprocally bitcoins for physical assets, it's merely indicative of the fact that bitcoins do indeed have demonstrable value, because, again, we're fully self-incentivised without any reliance on authority, fully self-regulating without any reliance on laws and fully self-sustaining without any reliance on debt.  Not because someone has a gun to our heads to make us pretend bitcoins have value.  But because everyone reaps the benefits of not having the overheads and costs of all the completely wasted resources that go into maintaining "banks assets, evaluation of the credit risk, collateral, foreclosure," etc.  Because, as we've established, we simply don't need them and no one can stop us.

The permissionless carrot will always win over the authoritarian stick.  It's a simple deduction.

As you've already admitted, you know it's only force and coercion that keeps your "representative money" barely intact.  That's a pretty big weakness when alternatives like this become available.  How long do you think people are willing to submit to that coercion when their economies keep failing, banks keep wanting bailouts and everyone gets poorer by the day due to inflation?  It's no contest.  We've already won.  The rest of the world just hasn't realised it yet.  And it doesn't stop there.  Once we're done with money, next on the to-do list is democracy and governance itself.  Imagine when we replace elected representatives with a blockchain.  The truest sense of "representative" (seeing as you keep using that word, even though I'm pretty sure you haven't understood its meaning) governance this planet has ever seen.  That's going to be better in every conceivable way too.  

Everything you think you know about how this world works is about to be disrupted by what we're doing.

You can try to get in the way if you like, but you're pretty much a bug-splat on the windscreen at this point.

The crypto is not a goal itself, but blockchain technology is, thats what we need to improve banking

If you say bitcoin is not a currency then you are wrong because from my understanding of the definition of bitcoin as a digital currency which can be use for online transactions, and a currency is any thing that has legal backing and is generally accepted so bitcoin is generally accepted by those who understand it and are able to use despite the fact that bitcoin does not have legal backing yet but is going to have in time to come. Bitcoin is still at it discovery stage.

It is fiat currencies that are for most part faith based and forced onto us by the threat of violence. It is fiat currencies that have collapsed time and time again when the fiat Ponzi scheme runs out of steam. Normally as a result of reckless expansionary monetary policy backed by nothing more than empty promises. This is normally when the governments and banksters take nations to war in order to rinse and repeat the same old Ponzi scheme. The issuing and control of fiat currencies are centralized. This gives the issuers immense power and undue influence over the lives of people.

It is different with cryptos and with cryptos I mean digital tokens that for one enable peer-to-peer trustless (bankless) transactions within peer-to-peer economies driven by decentralized blockchains. And I am not in reference to cryptos that are used in Ponzi schemes such as Bitconnect or that are issued and controlled by governments and banksters.

Many cryptos are used as currencies, but the vast majority are utility tokens that unlock access to specialized software and the features it offer. Even those that are exclusively used as currencies have utility value in the sense that it enable peer-to-peer trustless transactions across the globe.

Very little to no faith is required for cryptos to work. E.g. smart contracts ensure that contracting parties don't need to trust each other in order for contracts to be enforced. The technology ensures that each party has to stick to his/her end of the deal. If not, penalties agreed on when the contract was signed, are automatically enforced without a third party having to step in and enforce it.

Now of course if someone has zero faith in the technology, then he/she will most likely not want to get involved. However, this doesn't take away from the fact that the technology works and is available. It is after all a tool that one chooses to use or not to use. Unlike with fiat currency, freedom loving people involved with cryptos are not going to force anyone to use it, especially not by threat of violence.

In all fairness, the use of cryptos in peer-to-peer economies can be seriously hampered if governments use violence or misinformation to persuade enough people not to participate (or if a calamity outside of our control strikes).

Intrinsic value is a misnomer. Anything has just as much value as someone or something is prepared to give to it. E.g. a dung beatle most likely attaches more value to a piece of dung than most humans. This while most internet users will most likely attach a higher value to the hardware and software that enable the sending of emails than dung. It is no different when it comes to cryptos. Even fiat currency has value beyond its face value. E.g. fiat currency in the form of notes can be used to fuel a fire, as wallpaper, etc.

I see you use gold and silver certificates and fiat money as examples of something that provide a legal entitlement (right) "to tangible goods or foreclosed property of borrowers." This "legal entitlement" that you're talking about can easily be diminished and outright destroyed. E.g. history has shown that they always issue more gold and silver certificates than the physical gold and silver to back it. This while they always destroy fiat currencies, which are nothing short of debt instruments, via reckless expansionary monetary policy. This represents an indirect tax and theft for that matter. This while with cryptos - technology and consensus - assure that only x-amount of a certain token can exist - its value cannot be diminished via the reckless expansionary monetary policy of a centralized authority. Yes, I can hard fork and create my own x token, but it will be worthless if there is no or little consensus to back it.

In addition, if you're hungry and I own a pumpkin, your fiat money doesn't give you the "legal entitlement" or right  to my pumpkin. And when it is up for sale, your fiat money doesn't give you the right to buy it at a certain price. If I feel the fiat money you offer have too little value, then I will ask a higher price and perhaps even to the point where the "legal entitlements" that you hold are worth next to nothing - because you need a wheelbarrow full to be able to buy my pumpkin. Even if government forces me to sell my pumpkin at a certain price, then the overall supply of pumpkins in the market will dry up pretty quickly - leading to bigger imbalances and to the point where the "legal entitlements" you think you own, become worthless. And when the government fails that gave you the "legal entitlement," who is going to ensure that you're entitled to anything?

On the other hand, cryptos can be exchanged for almost anything, including property, gold, silver, fiat currency and what have you. And if I don't want to accept cryptos for the pumpkin - only fiat currencies, then those with cryptos who want to buy my pumpkin can exchange their cryptos for fiat and pay me in fiat. Unlike the governments and banksters, most people who are into cryptos are not going to force anyone to accept cryptos as payment. People have the choice to participate at free will. There is no need for violence or coercion to force people to use cryptos. It will be senseless to use violence. And the success of cryptos will at the end of the day not be dependent on the successes and failures of governments and banksters.

Now of course governments and banksters are most likely going to issue their own centralized cryptos and most likely force people to use it. However, I am sure there will be enough decentralized cryptos and consensus available to make their threats of no or little effect in no time. Assuming the masses wake up and realize the power that decentralized cryptos afford us.  

The potential for the whole crypto currency and block chain technology is huge. It barely scratches the surface now.
 I believe in crypto currencies in the long run, as they solve many issues other technologies cannot by removing third parties.

So don’t think of them as just coins, because new currencies since Ethereum are more than just coins, they build apps and project that may have real world impact outside of their financial value or replacing regular currencies.

There are project like Steem that give construct versions of youtube, projects like Akasha that make social networks on the Block Chain, and hundreds of many others. Some will fail, others will not.

What different is with Fiat money? it also is faith-based if there was a point that people started to fear the weakness of any Fiat in according to scale, it will collapse. You would try to say that it is backed by gold, but no. It has been long time since currencies was backed by gold. Even the gold which allegedly is there to back up some fraction of FIAT most likely is gone and not to mention fractional loans which is absolutely crazy and is another good point that there is little support to FIAT rather than faith and words of politicans. You would say no way Fiat is to strong but there is some good amount of speculations and arguments why wars in middle east broke out exactly because of the reason that one of the biggest FIAt currencies was threatened.

Cryptography is not an enforceable instance, it is a technique for secure transmission of information. Enforceability in the context of money means that someone if legally forced to provide you with tangible goods on the bases of monetary instrument you own (borrowers in the case of fiat money). When you own crypto numbers nobody is legally forced to provide you something tangible for this numbers, which means that crypto numbers are completely useless and giving away your land, food, car, house or other tangible goods just to have this numbers is worse than the Tulip Craze in the Netherlands where people sold houses for tulips. You are literally throwing away your tangible property just because you believe that others will do the same thing. If that's not crazy than I don't know what is.

Regarding fiat money and legal system, calling them a Ponzi scheme and negative because few corrupt governments misused them, is as nonsensical as saying that Ferrari is a useless car because someone crashed it, and that protecting our life, freedom and property is evil because we used coercion in the protection.

Dot-com was one of the best things that happened to me in this life, and the investment capital from those times are still sitting safely in my various accounts.   If I can make as much in crypto as I did during the late 90's tech boom, I will be very very happy.   

but how will i sending immediately over the internets tangible value for my goods i wanted to order from other side the world??

this is internets money pal

we are all living in a simulation apparently where tangible is merely a matter of perspective

get with the times

If we all asked for the tangible value of our current fiat at once you  would find that little would be delivered to each of us.

It is no longer backed by gold and is just a faith based system too.

You could argue that golds value is faith based.

The only real things you need are food, water, shelter, and pussy. Trading in anything else is a leap of faith of eventually trading back into those things at an advantage.

Gold is faith based, but it's like comparing the Roman Catholic Church (gold Heraeus bars) to the Church of the Province of West Africa (btc).    They are technically both faith based, but one is much more firmly established.

The monetary system as it functions today is based on faith, there's nothing backing the Dollar or Euro expect for your faith in a government. Governments can collapse you know? Your argument invalidated your argument. If you're going to say cryptocurrencies aren't currencies nevermind whether it is BTC or altcoins atleast understand the monetary system before you start arguing against them. You think that just because something is tangible it has value? Well why don't I start paying you with toilet paper instead of Fiat currency? Fiat has the intrinsic value of near nothing and is soley based in the assumption or belief that I can get something of value with my worthless papers, alteast with toiletpaper you can wipe your butt and it doesn't sting. Golds value is entirely determined by faith, and if you want to argue that gold is used for electronics and jewelry then I refute your argument by saying the value that is given to gold in that regards is only a few percent and doesn't account for the rest.

Face it, everything is based on belief. If you're going to shit on crypto atleast do it right and give some good arguments. So what is money? It is a tool to communicate value. What does it represent? Well it doesn't actually represent value or we wouldn't use valueless papers. Money represents its author and its culture. The only fraud that is being commited is by the centralized banks that print money as they please and loan money to charge interest for money that doesn't exist.

Again, numerical values are NOT money, they are abstract mathematical objects. Money is either commodity or legally binding instrument that provides its holder with legal path to goods or services. If you give an iPhone to someone as a gift and then you mark this gift by writing a number into the computer's memory, this number won't magically become money. It's still a number. If you send it to someone, or record it on blockchain it is still... a number. Creating, transferring and storing numbers has nothing to do with money. Money is not based on faith but on legal obligations. Borrowers are legally obligated to use money for their loan payments. Legal obligation is not faith, but a duty that is enforced by a court of law. You are like a member of some crazy cult with this vehement denial of reality.

I'm not sure about this vintage distortion of reality you are clinging too

legally binding , courts of law with regard payment and receiving goods/services??  that's all useful but I'm sure most would like to see less need for such things anyway.

We are trying to build a decentralised trustless end to end arena here.


Those mechanisms you mention will soon be obsolete or greatly reduced in their role.

Double Deposit Escrow and a trustless end to end (for real currency) will obliterate the squabbling and need for middle men or centralised authorities sorting out your personal shit. The entire point is that there is not need at any point for trust so you should not be in a position not to receive your goods or services for your magic internets money.

Before we reach that stage I am not even sure why you would assume if amazon offered btc as payment and you bought an item there and paid in BTC you would have no legal right to ensure you received goods or services.

Perhaps I am not grasping your  point or else your point is soon to be pointless.

If BTC can serve as a better alternative to "money" in that i use it and get what I want.. then why even clutter the board with this kind of nonsense.

Sure, let's take the recent example where some people bought a total of 50 luxury flats (http://uk.businessinsider.com/50-dubai-luxury-flats-sold-for-bitcoin-and-one-buyer-bought-10-2018-2) from a couple in exchange for bitcoins.  Physical, tangible assets traded for some entries in the ledger.  By your logic, the couple who sold those dwellings can accept the bitcoin and then simply not give them the flats they paid for, because it's not legally enforceable, right?  Except you're wrong, because your arguments clearly fall apart the moment they're exposed to the slightest dose of reality.  Those deals are finalised.  It all looks pretty enforceable to me.  

With Bitcoin you can always choose to involve legal enforcement and contractual obligations if you desire.  You have that option.  If you want to pay some suit to draft a contract every time you transact with Bitcoin to make sure the other person doesn't try to rip you off, have fun paying for that.  It's entirely your call.  Although, in any example where properties are concerned, obviously that will almost always involve legally binding documents like deeds or lease agreements that have to be signed.  But in no way does it mean that every single transaction requires a similar level of bureaucracy and administrative labour for it to work.  In other examples of real world purchases, people are paying for their VPNs with Lightning and someone paid their prepaid phone bill too.  And standard bitcoin transactions have been used for plenty of purchases over the years.  The vast majority of them, funnily enough, not requiring a law firm on retainer to make them happen.

Please, tell us all in your infinite wisdom how they're going to overturn and reclaim that first (now notorious) "Bitcoin Pizza" just because there wasn't a lawyer involved.   :D

Done deals are done.  They're not falling through or being disputed just because there isn't a notary, paralegal and judge on standby.  In fact, the number of transactions that are disputed, or where claims of scams or other fraudulent activity occur are likely in close proportion with the number of similar reports when using fiat cash.  Which makes perfect sense if Bitcoin is cash for the internet.  Any deal done as a face-to-face exchange with fiat cash where there's no receipt for the goods in question is equally as legally unenforceable as Bitcoin.  

Are you also warning people about the dangers doing fiat cash interactions without receipts too?  One might be tempted to call it hypocrisy if you aren't.  

But fine.  You stick with your precious nanny state who will happily take ever-increasing proportions of your wealth in exchange for pacifying you, mollycoddling your delicate, pampered ass and making you feel "safe".  If you want to spend money out of your pocket to make that compromise, feel free.  Everyone here has that choice, to keep some or even most of their total net worth within the traditional sovereign kleptocracy if they so wish.  How much you want to risk your exposure to that is entirely up to you.  But when the state does eventually screw you, and they will, don't say we didn't warn you.  It's their system, you're merely the fuel they burn to keep it running.

AGAIN, I would like to warn people that bitcoin and cryptos are not legitimate trading instruments, that they are bound to collapse, and that it is not a smart idea to buy them. I modified my article to more clearly explain why this is the case: https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/

And yet you still aren't warning the public about cash being legally unenforceable in many scenarios?  People all over the world could be buying stuff from markets, garage sales, street vendors, bazaars, carnivals, festivals or boot fairs using cash right now, with no legal recourse if the goods they bought turn out to be faulty or counterfeit.  Surely someone should warn them about the complete lack of legal path to restore their ownership rights of tangible goods.  It's a total fraud.  I guess they'll just have to rely on some good old fashioned personal responsibility and common sense like those of us here in cryptoland do.   ::)

most cryptos may collapse within two years, but there are some good and strong projects will survive, they will rule the blockchain world like MS and Google did, it is frustrating hence the market is so bad, but hope is pregnant with it