Bitcoin Forum

Option 1: Yes, he did sell the coins at these givens dates, which means, he is lying, and he did indeed sell:

https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image_desktop/public/inline-images/2018-03-07_13-24-57.jpg?itok=K9Ydo16i

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-07/bitcoins-tokyo-whale-sells-400m-bitcoin-bitcoin-cash

Optcion 2: No, he did not sell on these days, only moved the coins, which triggered panic sellers into believing these coins were getting dumped:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/breaking-trustee-of-infamous-mt-gox-denies-btc-bch-sales-affected-crypto-markets

The official statement in MtGox website:

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20180317_qa.pdf

Due the polarizing opinions on this subject, I would a poll on it. In September we should have some clarifying news so the poll will remain open until around next December.

Truth because why would he lie in this scenario? Sure he could protect himself but it is not like people know where he lives, he is already protected. I believe the realization he moved the coins, put people in a panic and they wanted to get out before he did. Could be wrong, and am curious to find out what actually happened myself.

Interesting post which I believe. Mt Gox need to refund the money as result of the consultation with the court, which was necessary. But, this is not the only factor of the drop down of bitcoin

Crypto fans often forget that beyond crypto people have actual regulations and laws that they need to obey, especially if they're employed in the legal business themselves. I don't know how Japanese law works, but elsewhere if you lie and display demonstrable dishonesty you're out of the legal profession for good.

This geezer probably doesn't give flying fuck about the Bitcoin market. He wants to get the job done and move on to something else that attracts less whining.

 (im a newbie ) how people know that he only moved the coins ?

its like they have his adress and they keep consulting it to see if theres a movement ?

He never said he didn't sell. It's pretty obvious that he did sell around the given dates. The average price he netted reflects that. He is explicitly saying he didn't dump on the exchange books (suggesting OTC sales).

What motive does he have to lie? I'm curious to hear opinions on that. Based on motives alone, I assume he isn't. A bankruptcy trustee isn't going to blatantly lie to creditors, the public and the courts.


Yeah, I don't think he gives a shit. People are reading way too much into this.

Hasn't it already been determined that he sold in such a way that wouldn't affect the market price? He's said just that in his statement. It's implied that they sold OTC as there was a mention of ensuring the security of the transactions. If that were true, then it doesn't really matter when they were sold.

Heck, even if he did sell at those dates through a regular exchange, what of it? We always say that Bitcoin is for controlling your own money, having uncensorable transactions with no intervention, etc. so shouldn't he be free to do whatever he pleases? The entire issue is way overblown in my opinion.

the real question that should be asked here is not about whether Mt Gox Trustee is lying or not. it should not even be about whether he actually sold his coins or not. because none of these questions matter an they don't change anything.

the real question is whether the news about him selling caused the drop and by how much?
we all know a drop would have happened anyways from $20k. that much was inevitable and we all know that whenever bitcoin has a drop it usually becomes bigger and sometimes gets out of hand with all the FUDs that would be flying around at the same time with that drop. this has already happened multiple times, enough to form a pattern actually!

and the funny part still is the fact that they say he started selling his coins months ago! and months ago price was still rising big time, in fact it went up more than 3x after the first alleged selling...

He can do that. Even if we assume that such actions may have an impact on the price of bitcoin is his right. I am sure that the market will recover even after more coins have been sold. I'm sure the whales took advantage of the situation and sold a lot of their coins to lower the price. Then they buy cheap coins and the market began to recover. In this situation, the lost money is only the alarmists and the lenders of the exchange. I can only accuse this Manager of unprofessionalism.

He's telling the truth. a) He has no reason to lie and b) the amounts he sold are less than the amounts being mined in a month.

The crash was down to loads of hodlers thinking, "the price is going up too fast, it's not sustainable, I'd better sell before it crshes". That's why the mempool was suddenly so full - loads of people decided to send coins to the exchanges at the same time.

since the news about him selling only came out recently and filled the internet (note that the dump was already near the end by that time), i am going to say there is no reason for him to lie about it. it is the truth. if the news came out in the beginning of the dump months ago then you could have doubt the legitimacy of it and could assume he is just moving coins around to scare the market for some reason because i can't see any gains for him to do so.

Do you think he will tell the truth about dumping so much bitcoin that may cause a total crash? I really think even if there are evidence that he is the one don't it we can not guarantee that he is telling the truth, But a lot of reasons can be covered up for him on how bitcoin dive in a crazy low value, Well there are a lot of whales that surely keeping their bitcoin that waiting for the perfect time to dump and bought in a cheaper price and there are negative news about that can cover up the situation.

Definitely, and it makes sense as well. If you're just a trader interested in returns, not caring about the technical side, hodl and whatnot, it's a major factor. In most cases all major drops are related to events making people sell their coins in panic, and temporarily make them stay out of the market, even when the storm is no longer thriving. Result of this is that the short term demand shrinks to such extent, that in case the market should be going up again, it keeps going down instead. I think that may explain the sort of market we have been going through in the last weeks. Good thing is that traders will at some point gain back their confidence, and we may have seen a start of that confidence in the market. It's still too early to say, but at least it gave the market a positive vibe, and that's worth something too. Once the price keeps going up consistently, fomo starts kicking in, and we may experience a mini rally.

How is he unprofessional though? He may be able to lie about consulting crypto experts about selling the coins, but there's no way he can lie about being in constant communication with the courts. That, added to the fact that he was able to sell the coins in the first place (which is his only job in this instance, mind you) makes him look fairly professional to me.

I understand that people are upset because he might be the sole reason for the recent bear market, but there's no evidence that backs that claim up. It's much more likely that a wild rally met an equally wild correction and that it's been hard to maintain a bull run since.

He most likely doesn't care about bitcoin and is just trying to get the job done. There isn't really a motive for him to lie, he is not going to gain anything neither is MtGox. And well if he is telling truth or laying the crash did happen, and IMO the crash was inevitable at 20k MtGox news/dump just gave it a minor push.

Of course he's telling the truth, he's a professional with the backing of the court.

He's also acting on the orders of the judge in the case and taking every precaution required to shield him from liability.

This I don't think he would be lying about selling especially as a trustee of an official settlement for Mtgox bankruptcy claim. Think of the legality it would open if he actually sold and lied. These things are governed by rather big entities and he would be following the courts decisions and following it to the letter.

The trustee has shown incompetence in several occsasions. It always felt like he googled "how to sell bitcoin" and got into some exchange. Why the hell would you dump on Kraken? it's insane. Anyone with some competence would first of all go OTC and find a deal with a billionaire willing to buy big packs of coins to avoid market destruction.

Then we have the decision itself of forcing the coins to be sold instead of just sending a transaction to creditor's wallets, so they get their coins back and nobody suffers a loss. It's completely retarded that we are dealing with this when bitcoin can be easily transacted back to the people that lost it. And if you ask the people that lost the coins, they want their coins back, not fiat..

What could possibly be the motive for moving the coins and lying about selling them? This would only crash the market and reduce the value of coins held by the trust. Seems to be yet another conspiracy theory with no basis behind it. We have to accept that the Mt Gox coins represent a big holding and the trustee has the capacity to move the market.

The issue has been overblown because of FUDer's and that's obvious. Those who spread FUD uses the name of MtGox to spread fear and uncertainty in the market, since MtGox incident is very famous in the history of bitcoin.
The motive of the trustee is obvious if he did lie about it. He might have had sold only a little and just moved the large portion of coins somewhere else after all, he can profit if he rebuys at a lower price. Even though that is the case, it is very unlikely that he will lie to the court as he might be thrown to jail for that.

I agree that there is two scenarios that the mtgox controversies are might be lying or maybe telling the truth. What if they do both, they might hiding some important information between the lines. We can’t judge them, but we can’t trust them again? or we must because this is what bitcoin community build of, by trusting each and everyone.

It looks like this story is getting twisted day after day. I don't know if it's their rivals that are getting back at them to put them in more bigger mess by paying the media to write controversial articles about them. But from the stories I read and followed up;  it is said that they 'sold' the coins not 'moved' them. And they even confirm that more will be sold out then. I will be remain neutral on this till all is resolved.

I don't think that is lying about it anymore . I mean , the statistics are clear and there was certainly a big sell off that led to some crash that lasted for like more than two days . There will be bad consequences if someone find out that MT Gox is still not selling or sold its bitcoins as being a public figure any such lie might cost him a big crisis . The other way out maybe that they have invested in bitcoin and the things are still under the wrap.

The trustee hasn't laid any definite dates on when he liquidated those huge amount of coins, and no, it's not believable that he only moved these coins and not sold it because the trail is there, and why would he be moving it if the address needs to be monitored since it's needed to pay off their creditors? His stories are not panning out, and whether he admits it or not, the market has obviously crashed due to those coins being sold.

Well there's money coming in and out of that MtGox address for some reason... something strange is going on. In the last few months someone has put there around 50,000 BTC. Why would they be sending bitcoins into an address that just has to sell whatever's inside? Literally everything must be sell as far as I know.

There are missing pieces in this piece that we don't know. We don't know if the coins where sold when they moved somewhere else and we don't know why someone is filling the address back with more BTC.

What if I told you the market was going to crash anyway? :)

It's impossible to know either way, but it's not logical to attribute the bear market to the MtGox trustee. This is no different than blaming the 2014 bear market on the MtGox collapse.

In both cases, we had just experienced massive, unsustainable uptrends. All markets (like all things) eventually experience mean reversion.


Why do you think that? I believe all liabilities (at time of bankruptcy) were converted to JPY. That means the trustee controls assets far and above the actual liabilities now, due to BTC's price rise.

Sell everything, why?

How are you so sure that the trustee has already sold everything in order to pay all creditors, including Karpeles and other MtGox associates? Remember that Karpeles will get his share back too. I don't believe the official version.

In any case, what do you think that will happen to the rest of these coins? When a government controls it, they usually don't hold the Bitcoin (because they are idiots) they will dump it in (hopefully) an OTC auction, the problem is we have seen amateurism with this case, so they may dump it on the market, wouldn't be surprised.

Nobody can be sure without seeing the books, but that's how the math works. ~800K bitcoins lost = $480M at bankruptcy. ~200k of those bitcoins were "found" by Mt Gox, leaving the BTC insolvency ~ $360M.

The trustee recovered ~ $405 million from selling BTC and BCH. The vast majority of claims were denied by the trustee. The court approved only $414 million total in claims. The $405 million recovered by the trustee roughly covers this. That leaves only Coinlab (consensus seems to be that $75M lawsuit doesn't have legs and will settle for pennies on the dollar if anything).

I did forget to account for court fees, which are upwards of $55M now. It's not clear to me when the court takes payment for that or if they already have. If not, we're probably looking at no more than $75M in outstanding liabilities, based on public information.

Anyway, I was just responding to your point that everything must be sold. That's not true at all. It partly depends whether the court approves civil rehabilitation proceedings. If so, some BTC creditors will gladly take payment in BTC rather than from the $405 million the trustee is sitting on. The trustee seems more open to it now than in 2014. The main problem is time because of Peter Vessenes and Coinlab.


In bankruptcy, creditors come before shareholders. Creditors need to be fully repaid before Karpeles gets anything.


The case can be moved to civil rehabilitation. In that case, the company would be restructured and protected from the Coinlab lawsuit. And BTC creditors can legally take payment in BTC rather than JPY/USD.

If all liabilities are covered and suits are settled, there's no cause for bankruptcy proceedings. If not civil rehabilitation, then any remaining funds go to equity holders (Karpeles).

I doubt the funds will ever sent back in bitcoin. They will sell first, then pay them in whatever fiat currencies where the person is residing at. In all previous cases, the coins were never sent back, they were sold first.

Can you mention a previous case in which the people involved got paid in BTC? I don't think this ever happened.

Can you name a previous bankruptcy case that resembles the Mt Gox debacle, where assets significantly outweigh liabilities? And where assets are denominated mostly in BTC? It's completely unprecedented. Bitcoin has only existed for nine years. Of course there isn't court precedent for every possible situation.

Few bankruptcy cases, especially outside of civil rehab, end with solvent entities with significant budget surpluses. The court's mandate is to repay debt holders, then equity holders. The only way to compel debt holders to accept payment is to use legal tender, so the liquidation of BTC/BCH to cover outstanding claims in JPY was expected.

But nobody seems to be able to point to a legal reason why remaining BTC beyond outstanding claims would need to be liquidated.

And I fully agree. In case the whole sell-off affected the price movement of Bitcoin then it is something we have to accept and be used to because I am sure this whole thing may not be the last...there can be similar stories later on. This is actually a strength test for Bitcoin showing us how agile is the network and the market.

Why is he lying if he really sold his coins over that period?
There was a statement in the MtGox gox site similarly saying that "he sold some 'safe' amounts last December, January and February".
He certainly didn't lied, but in the poll, the second option must have happened because of the first option.

Actually, Bitcoin was built by the community in order to directly transact to anyone without handling your money to someone you cannot trust.
Persons behind it didn't trust each other, that's why the code is hosted as "open source".